Detroit has filed for chapter 9!

(heard on the news just now)

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 18/07/2013 21:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Detroit has filed for chapter 9!

(heard on the news just now)

I heard it on the grapevine...

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

What the whole town, surely somebody has stolen the dosh then.

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Detroit has filed for chapter 9!

(heard on the news just now)

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc'-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members
of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded
with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 19/07/13 08:28, Brian Gaff wrote:
What the whole town, surely somebody has stolen the dosh then.
as in the city administration.
Brian



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 19/07/13 09:06, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/13 08:28, Brian Gaff wrote:
What the whole town, surely somebody has stolen the dosh then.
as in the city administration.
Brian



More here
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ankruptcy.html



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
What the whole town,

yep, the whole town

(I assumed from the OP that he was talking about the record company and I
guess that's what you thought too)

surely somebody has stolen the dosh then.

probably caused by legacy pension payments that now far exceed its income.

On Fri, 19 Jul 2013 09:24:07 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
What the whole town,

yep, the whole town

(I assumed from the OP that he was talking about the record company and I
guess that's what you thought too)

+1

And Motown records relocated ages ago, IIRC.

surely somebody has stolen the dosh then.

probably caused by legacy pension payments that now far exceed its income.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

On 19/07/2013 08:28, Brian Gaff wrote:
What the whole town, surely somebody has stolen the dosh then.

While there have been accusations of corruption and mismanagement, I
rather doubt anybody has managed to squirrel away $18bn. The city has
suffered very badly in the recession. Despite the population falling by
25% between 2008 and 2012, unemployment has risen from 15% to 18% in the
same time.

Filing for bankruptcy means that the city can liquidate assets to pay
off its debts and has more freedom to get rid of inefficient operational
practices. The unions, who defend many of those practices, say it is
simply an attempt to break their power.

Colin Bignell

On 19/07/13 10:28, Nightjar wrote:
On 19/07/2013 08:28, Brian Gaff wrote:
What the whole town, surely somebody has stolen the dosh then.

While there have been accusations of corruption and mismanagement, I
rather doubt anybody has managed to squirrel away $18bn. The city has
suffered very badly in the recession. Despite the population falling
by 25% between 2008 and 2012, unemployment has risen from 15% to 18%
in the same time.

Filing for bankruptcy means that the city can liquidate assets to pay
off its debts and has more freedom to get rid of inefficient
operational practices. The unions, who defend many of those practices,
say it is simply an attempt to break their power.

Colin Bignell



the problem is they have a social and government policy built to support
the largest car manufacturing town in the USA, that no longer makes
cars. It is largely a ghost town, except for millions of unemployed ex
car workers on welfare.

Successive governments considered GM was 'too big to fail' so instead of
winding it down, they pumped cash into it. Now its gone bust, sold off
the worst, destroyed its workers pensionvalues and is slowly becoming
slightly sane.

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/job...-do-same/6257/

gives some more info.
..


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 19/07/13 11:04, Huge wrote:
On 2013-07-19, Nightjar wrote:
On 19/07/2013 08:28, Brian Gaff wrote:
What the whole town, surely somebody has stolen the dosh then.
While there have been accusations of corruption and mismanagement, I
rather doubt anybody has managed to squirrel away $18bn. The city has
suffered very badly in the recession. Despite the population falling by
25% between 2008 and 2012, unemployment has risen from 15% to 18% in the
same time.
I expect they've simply been following the example set by national
Governments; spending more money than they have collected in taxes and
covering the shortfall with borrowing. The economics of the madhouse.


Rather its the economics of perpetual growth.

I.e. if you have a business - and a country resembles a business - and
you expect that in future it will grow, and need a bigger premises and
more infrastructure, and have more people working in it, it will make
total sense to gear te pension plans and indeed the borrowing
requirements of that business towards that expectation.

But if sales flatten out, and costs rise, that means you have heavily
committed to a flawed model.

Worse, if you have been running the business mostly to have a cushy life
for the management, and to provide for the staff, with no thought about
productivity or competitiveness, you will be in even deeper ****.

And that, in a nutshell, is where socialist governments have been taking
us. Actual book balanceing and productivity has never been in the frame
at all. Only social policy, and taxing anything that produced wealth to
pay for it.

Naturally as soon as growth stops, because at some level or another a
limit has been reached, the whole growth based economic model is in
tatters, and most Western governments are essentially now bankrupt, only
being kept alive because no one dares actually face up to it.

The underlying economic reality is however there for all to see. Growth
in the world economy has overall slowed down or even stalled completely.
Loans made to fund growth that isn't happening are at risk of being
worthless in terms of interest rates returns: worse the prinviple is at
risk of severe haircuts. Or even total default.,

We have billions sloshing around in the global financial markets, the
pensions funds of us all, that cant make any money, because there is
very little worth investing in. Gilt edged? don't make me laugh.
Government bonds are looking less attractive than equities.

Detroit is merely a symptom of the whole system that is fundamentally
having to decouple from the debt/growth model towards a steady state
maintenance of some vestige of civilisation, and with the debt model,
will go socialism, which has never paid for itself. And probably the EU
as well, at least in its current incarnation.

Around about 2002 I forecast there would be no growth for at least 15
years, because, I then reasoned, it would take a whole generation to
learn that the world had irrevocably chganged gear, and was no longer in
'perpetual growth' mode. 11 years later, I see no reason to change that
view. Indeed I suspect that it will take even longer.

Japan has had nearly two lost decades now, with permanent QE and a
declining population. The delusion here is that this is a recession and
we are bumping along the bottom. The reality is that this is as good as
it gets, and we are actually banging our heads on the ceiling, and all
that increased debt will do is make us bang our heads ever harder.

All the powers that be can do, given this mindset, is damage limitation.
Detroit creditors will take whatever they can get. They have little choice.

Pension promises will be reneged on, socialist governments will be
forced to renege on social promises, and will get voted out, in favour
of more honest political forces that promise a lot less, but actually
deliver at least some of it.

Renewable energy will whimper and die, as the real cost of delivering
nothing of value, becomes apparent. Meanwhile politicains will trump the
success of green policies as fossil energy use falls as a increasingly
impoverished populations finds it simply can't afford it. Before they
are re[placed by pragmatic ones who accept that global wwarming never
was a serious threat anyway.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes

It is largely a ghost town

Wonderful pics he

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gall.../detroit-goes-
bankrupt-in-pictures

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gall.../detroit-goes-
bankrupt-in-pictures

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article , Mike Tomlinson
writes

Wonderful pics he

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gall.../detroit-goes-
bankrupt-in-pictures

Sorry, second link should have been:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesi...2/photography-
detroit#/

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
news
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes

It is largely a ghost town

Wonderful pics he



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gall...pt-in-pictures


Lot of people's dreams and lives destroyed there.

On 19/07/2013 07:57, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 18/07/2013 21:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Detroit has filed for chapter 9!

(heard on the news just now)

I heard it on the grapevine...

applause


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Friday, 19 July 2013 08:57:40 UTC+2, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 18/07/2013 21:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Detroit has filed for chapter 9!



(heard on the news just now)



I heard it on the grapevine...

Quality!

Seriously though, there are loads more waiting in the wings to suffer the same humiliation - among them, New York, no less! And as usual, European banks are exposed to these worthless municipal bonds, so it looks like once again, we are all on the hook for this madness. How come it's always *us* that ends up forking out for someone else's greed and incompetence?

On Saturday, July 20, 2013 1:37:42 AM UTC+12, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Mike Tomlinson

writes



Wonderful pics he



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gall.../detroit-goes-

bankrupt-in-pictures



Sorry, second link should have been:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesi...2/photography-

detroit#/


I had a look at Detroit with Google Maps and Streetview and I suggest you all do the same. I looked at half a dozen randomly chosen parts of Detroit. I think it looks quite nice and well laid out. It looks much nicer than say Croydon. Where's a nice place to live in the UK that's a reasonable price? I'll have a look at your suggestions.

On 20/07/2013 06:25, Matty F wrote:
On Saturday, July 20, 2013 1:37:42 AM UTC+12, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Mike Tomlinson

writes



Wonderful pics he



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gall.../detroit-goes-



bankrupt-in-pictures



Sorry, second link should have been:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesi...2/photography-



detroit#/


I had a look at Detroit with Google Maps and Streetview and I suggest
you all do the same. I looked at half a dozen randomly chosen parts
of Detroit. I think it looks quite nice and well laid out. It looks
much nicer than say Croydon. Where's a nice place to live in the UK
that's a reasonable price? I'll have a look at your suggestions.


If UK is a guide, anything that's next to water will be re-generated
eventually.

On 20/07/2013 06:25, Matty F wrote:
On Saturday, July 20, 2013 1:37:42 AM UTC+12, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Mike Tomlinson

writes



Wonderful pics he



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gall.../detroit-goes-



bankrupt-in-pictures



Sorry, second link should have been:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesi...2/photography-



detroit#/


I had a look at Detroit with Google Maps and Streetview and I suggest
you all do the same. I looked at half a dozen randomly chosen parts
of Detroit. I think it looks quite nice and well laid out. It looks
much nicer than say Croydon. Where's a nice place to live in the UK
that's a reasonable price? I'll have a look at your suggestions.


A HELL of a lot nicer than most of suburban Britain by the look of it.
Shame about the social problems

On Thu, 18 Jul 2013 21:39:45 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Detroit has filed for chapter 9!

Doo, wee, doooh, dooh..

Matty F wrote:
I had a look at Detroit with Google Maps and Streetview and I suggest you
all do the same. I looked at half a dozen randomly chosen parts of
Detroit. I think it looks quite nice and well laid out.

I had a look too - massive suburban sprawl which looks OK, with some
dodgy-looking inner city and industrial areas. Pictures suggested they were
from 2008, so much may have happened since. One thing it isn't really
possible to gauge from Streetview is if somewhere is a no-go area because
you risk being shot/mugged/whatever.

The other thing is there seems to be very limited public transport, so if
you live in the suburban sprawl and can't afford to run a car, you're
stuffed.

It looks much nicer than say Croydon. Where's a nice place to live in
the UK that's a reasonable price? I'll have a look at your suggestions.

Try west/southwest Wales. Rural and miles from the nearest job.

City-wise, try northern like York, Edinburgh or Inverness. But everywhere
has less-nice areas to a greater or lesser degree.

Theo

Matty F wrote:
I had a look at Detroit with Google Maps and Streetview and
I suggest you all do the same.

A huge amount of "Detroit", along with its tax base, is outside
the city boundaries. It's about the size of Birmingham, but all
the taxpayers live in Warwickshire.

JGH

"Theo Markettos" wrote in message
...
Matty F wrote:
I had a look at Detroit with Google Maps and Streetview and I suggest you
all do the same. I looked at half a dozen randomly chosen parts of
Detroit. I think it looks quite nice and well laid out.

I had a look too - massive suburban sprawl which looks OK, with some
dodgy-looking inner city and industrial areas. Pictures suggested they
were
from 2008, so much may have happened since. One thing it isn't really
possible to gauge from Streetview is if somewhere is a no-go area because
you risk being shot/mugged/whatever.

The other thing is there seems to be very limited public transport, so if
you live in the suburban sprawl and can't afford to run a car, you're
stuffed.

It looks much nicer than say Croydon. Where's a nice place to live in
the UK that's a reasonable price? I'll have a look at your suggestions.

Try west/southwest Wales. Rural and miles from the nearest job.

City-wise, try northern like York, Edinburgh or Inverness.

Um, the guy asked: "reasonable priced"

tim

tim..... wrote:

"Theo Markettos" wrote in message
...
Matty F wrote:
It looks much nicer than say Croydon. Where's a nice place to live in
the UK that's a reasonable price? I'll have a look at your suggestions.

Try west/southwest Wales. Rural and miles from the nearest job.

City-wise, try northern like York, Edinburgh or Inverness.

Um, the guy asked: "reasonable priced"

Potteries or County Durham. Both cheap, both within reasonable
commmuting distance of major centres of work.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 20/07/2013 17:43, Theo Markettos wrote:
Matty F wrote:
I had a look at Detroit with Google Maps and Streetview and I suggest you
all do the same. I looked at half a dozen randomly chosen parts of
Detroit. I think it looks quite nice and well laid out.

I had a look too - massive suburban sprawl which looks OK, with some
dodgy-looking inner city and industrial areas. Pictures suggested they were
from 2008, so much may have happened since. ...

A quarter of the population has left since then for one thing.

Colin Bignell

"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
tim..... wrote:

"Theo Markettos" wrote in message
...
Matty F wrote:
It looks much nicer than say Croydon. Where's a nice place to live in
the UK that's a reasonable price? I'll have a look at your
suggestions.

Try west/southwest Wales. Rural and miles from the nearest job.

City-wise, try northern like York, Edinburgh or Inverness.

Um, the guy asked: "reasonable priced"

Potteries or County Durham. Both cheap, both within reasonable commmuting
distance of major centres of work.

you now seem to have forgotten "nice"

tim

wrote in message
...
On Friday, 19 July 2013 08:57:40 UTC+2, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 18/07/2013 21:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Detroit has filed for chapter 9!



(heard on the news just now)



I heard it on the grapevine...

Quality!

Seriously though, there are loads more waiting in the wings to suffer the
same humiliation - among them, New York, no less! And as usual, European
banks are exposed to these worthless municipal bonds, so it looks like once
again, we are all on the hook for this madness. How come it's always *us*
that ends up forking out for someone else's greed and incompetence?

Our worthless politicians are in the pockets of the rich. All of them.

On Friday, 19 July 2013 18:37:59 UTC+1, harryagain wrote:
"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message

news
In article , The Natural Philosopher

writes



It is largely a ghost town



Wonderful pics he







http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gall...pt-in-pictures





Lot of people's dreams and lives destroyed there.

We can expect more of this around the industrialised world, the situation of nuclear families in suburban houses with the parents going out to work for employers is no longer economically sustainable, as we are seeing with large-scale youth unemployment in Europe, most people will not be working for employers as there are too many people for the number of jobs that are realistically available, eventually only a privileged minority will have regular jobs, this situation has been coming for a long time, we held it off for a bit in the UK with the Blair government and their public sector borrowing, but now we're back to where we were in the Thatcher era.

The only solution is the South Asian way, with extended families living together, working in small businesses with perhaps only one person in outside employment, that won't be viable with our present housing stock in zoned planning, built with the assumption that everybody goes out to work and just sleeps at home, better to flatten the estates and allow individual premises on their own plots, suitable for working as well as living.

On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 07:27:34 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Friday, 19 July 2013 08:57:40 UTC+2, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 18/07/2013 21:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Detroit has filed for chapter 9!



(heard on the news just now)



I heard it on the grapevine...

Quality!

Seriously though, there are loads more waiting in the wings to suffer the
same humiliation - among them, New York, no less! And as usual, European
banks are exposed to these worthless municipal bonds, so it looks like once
again, we are all on the hook for this madness. How come it's always *us*
that ends up forking out for someone else's greed and incompetence?

Our worthless politicians are in the pockets of the rich. All of them.


Nail --- Head.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

On 22/07/2013 22:40, Jaffna Dog wrote:
On Friday, 19 July 2013 18:37:59 UTC+1, harryagain wrote:
"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message

news
In article , The Natural
Philosopher

writes



It is largely a ghost town



Wonderful pics he







http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gall...pt-in-pictures







Lot of people's dreams and lives destroyed there.

We can expect more of this around the industrialised world, the
situation of nuclear families in suburban houses with the parents
going out to work for employers is no longer economically
sustainable, as we are seeing with large-scale youth unemployment
in Europe, most people will not be working for employers as there are
too many people for the number of jobs that are realistically
available, eventually only a privileged minority will have regular
jobs, this situation has been coming for a long time, we held it off
for a bit in the UK with the Blair government and their public sector
borrowing, but now we're back to where we were in the Thatcher era.

Well that is crap.
there are more people in work now than when Blaire was president.


There are also more people looking for work which is why there are more
unemployed.