.... well, to an extent, I was right but that wasn't the whole picture.
http://www.wimp.com/greendeserts/

On 13/05/2013 13:39, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
... well, to an extent, I was right but that wasn't the whole picture.
http://www.wimp.com/greendeserts/


Didn't watch past the first 30 seconds ("perfect storm" did it for me)
but I see there is yet another media story saying how Sub-Saharan Africa
will be desert by the end of the century and it's all our fault.

Curious how the the authors and journalists don't seem to know that much
of the Sahara was green and fertile a thousand years ago, with quite
substantial human settlements. Until the climate changed, well before
the industrial revolution.

It's interesting to see that house sparrows are making a significant
come-back, if my garden is anything to go by, after virtually
disappearing over the past 30 years.

On 13/05/2013 13:51, newshound wrote:
On 13/05/2013 13:39, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
... well, to an extent, I was right but that wasn't the whole picture.
http://www.wimp.com/greendeserts/


Didn't watch past the first 30 seconds ("perfect storm" did it for me)
but I see there is yet another media story saying how Sub-Saharan Africa
will be desert by the end of the century and it's all our fault.

I watched that one some time back, and would say its well worth
watching the whole thing... when you see where the guy is coming from
you will see what I mean...



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
... well, to an extent, I was right but that wasn't the whole picture.
http://www.wimp.com/greendeserts/

Thanks for that. Fascinating. I can now tell my vegan daughter that she
has a duty to eat meat to save the planet. ;-)

Tim

newshound wrote:
On 13/05/2013 13:39, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
... well, to an extent, I was right but that wasn't the whole picture.
http://www.wimp.com/greendeserts/


Didn't watch past the first 30 seconds ("perfect storm" did it for me)
but I see there is yet another media story saying how Sub-Saharan Africa
will be desert by the end of the century and it's all our fault.

Curious how the the authors and journalists don't seem to know that much
of the Sahara was green and fertile a thousand years ago, with quite
substantial human settlements. Until the climate changed, well before the
industrial revolution.

It's interesting to see that house sparrows are making a significant
come-back, if my garden is anything to go by, after virtually
disappearing over the past 30 years.

Go back and watch a bit more. You've completely missed the whole point of
the message which is that we need a lot more grazing, not less.

Tim

On 13/05/2013 14:42, Tim+ wrote:

Go back and watch a bit more. You've completely missed the whole point of
the message which is that we need a lot more grazing, not less.

First of all, the whole thing is just a thinly disguised advert for
Savory's own rotational grazing system.

Second, do read the Wikipedia entry for him -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Savory

Researchers of the United States Department of Agriculture concluded
"these results refute prior claims that animal trampling associated with
high stocking rates or grazing pressures in rotational grazing systems
enhance soil properties and promote hydrological function".[19]
Similarly, a survey article that examined rotational grazing systems,
including Savory's system, found "few, if any, consistent benefits over
continuous grazing." [20] These confirm earlier evidence, where a
researcher [21] compared short duration grazing (SDG) and Savory Grazing
Method (SGM) in southern Africa and found no evidence of range
improvement, a slight economic improvement of a seven-unit intensive
system with more animals but with individual weight loss. He found no
evidence for soil improvement but the increased trampling had led to
soil compaction.

Third, read this
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/f...zing_have.html

On May 13, 1:51*pm, newshound wrote:
On 13/05/2013 13:39, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

... well, to an extent, I was right but that wasn't the whole picture.
http://www.wimp.com/greendeserts/

Didn't watch past the first 30 seconds ("perfect storm" did it for me)
but I see there is yet another media story saying how Sub-Saharan Africa
will be desert by the end of the century and it's all our fault.

Curious how the the authors and journalists don't seem to know that much
of the Sahara was green and fertile a thousand years ago, with quite
substantial human settlements. Until the climate changed, well before
the industrial revolution.

It's interesting to see that house sparrows are making a significant
come-back, if my garden is anything to go by, after virtually
disappearing over the past 30 years.

There is another theory that the Sahara will green up, so take your
pick.

GB wrote:
On 13/05/2013 14:42, Tim+ wrote:

Go back and watch a bit more. You've completely missed the whole point of
the message which is that we need a lot more grazing, not less.

First of all, the whole thing is just a thinly disguised advert for
Savory's own rotational grazing system.

Second, do read the Wikipedia entry for him - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Savory

Researchers of the United States Department of Agriculture concluded
"these results refute prior claims that animal trampling associated with
high stocking rates or grazing pressures in rotational grazing systems
enhance soil properties and promote hydrological function".[19]
Similarly, a survey article that examined rotational grazing systems,
including Savory's system, found "few, if any, consistent benefits over
continuous grazing." [20] These confirm earlier evidence, where a
researcher [21] compared short duration grazing (SDG) and Savory Grazing
Method (SGM) in southern Africa and found no evidence of range
improvement, a slight economic improvement of a seven-unit intensive
system with more animals but with individual weight loss. He found no
evidence for soil improvement but the increased trampling had led to soil compaction.

Third, read this
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/f...zing_have.html

Ah, that's disappointing. Thanks for those links.

Tim

newshound writes:

On 13/05/2013 13:39, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
... well, to an extent, I was right but that wasn't the whole picture.
http://www.wimp.com/greendeserts/


Didn't watch past the first 30 seconds ("perfect storm" did it for me)
but I see there is yet another media story saying how Sub-Saharan Africa
will be desert by the end of the century and it's all our fault.

Curious how the the authors and journalists don't seem to know that much
of the Sahara was green and fertile a thousand years ago, with quite
substantial human settlements. Until the climate changed, well before
the industrial revolution.

I've always suspected that the Sahara (and others) were deserts
precisely because they were once green and fertile, so that people
moved in and 'improved' things.





It's interesting to see that house sparrows are making a significant
come-back, if my garden is anything to go by, after virtually
disappearing over the past 30 years.


--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ O n e t e l . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

On Mon, 13 May 2013 13:39:11 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

... well, to an extent, I was right but that wasn't the whole picture.
http://www.wimp.com/greendeserts/


I Agree about the Goats...,,,,

Far too many greedy goats about the place,,,,

Bill Oddie offers an interesting insight here..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...ll-oddie-hsbc-
spoof-documentary-video

.............

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:30:50 AM UTC+1, Huge wrote:
On 2013-05-14, Rupert Bear wrote:

On Mon, 13 May 2013 13:39:11 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:



... well, to an extent, I was right but that wasn't the whole picture.

http://www.wimp.com/greendeserts/





I Agree about the Goats...,,,,



Far too many greedy goats about the place,,,,



Bill Oddie offers an interesting insight here..



Only if "interesting" is a strange way of spelling "utter ********".



http://www.guardian.co.uk/



Still, Bill Oddie and the Guardian, what did I expect?




Anso we larn that tha financial interest play no part
in turning oor planet inte la grande tolile...



....

Puts me in mind of groundhog day..

Here is anuther subspecia of tha banker-babes

takin care of oor planet...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1CkPYtzSAI

One can be sure themes frontal lobs issa focussing
on the their very near future,, (next cabbage)...

......................

On Tue, 14 May 2013 04:03:04 -0700, nutherperception wrote:

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:30:50 AM UTC+1, Huge wrote:
On 2013-05-14, Rupert Bear wrote:

On Mon, 13 May 2013 13:39:11 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:



... well, to an extent, I was right but that wasn't the whole
picture.

http://www.wimp.com/greendeserts/





I Agree about the Goats...,,,,



Far too many greedy goats about the place,,,,



Bill Oddie offers an interesting insight here..



Only if "interesting" is a strange way of spelling "utter ********".



http://www.guardian.co.uk/



Still, Bill Oddie and the Guardian, what did I expect?




Anso we larn that tha financial interest play no part in turning oor
planet inte la grande tolile...



...

Puts me in mind of groundhog day..

Here is anuther subspecia of tha banker-babes

takin care of oor planet...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1CkPYtzSAI

One can be sure themes frontal lobs issa focussing on the their very
near future,, (next cabbage)...

.....................


Its typical of the goats to focus on a seductive do-goody
save the earth plan ,,, while continuing
to exterminate the African Elephant and fell the great forests
it lived in,,,
It may well be the greatest of all the keystone specie
on our unique goldilocks planet....

You know ,, tha tiny little orb in the vast expanse of
hostile space and desolate worlds...
Our world,, that was uniquely gifted with life that somehow
survived and thrived,, till the greedy goat got in wi the cabbages..

Anyway ,,

I was watching a pair of Goldfinches in the garden yesterday,,
they were feeding on dandelion heads,, and I was struck by
how closely the yellow flash on their wings
matched with the yellow dandelion,, and wondered about
the little red bonnets they wear,,in a richer meadow
environment,, maybe there was a red flower helps them to blend in
while feeding...

The arid semi desert flowers in great abundance and variety
when it does get some water.. Animals come from far and wide,
they follow the rains into the dry areas,,

Meercats have been compared to the prairie dog..

And I wonder if there is something to learn here

Re management of land and grazing animals,,in the semi-arid area..
buffalo roamed,, once apon a time in N America...
And yes,, the injuns probly did do a bit of burning too.....

However,,

Pages of interest can be found here..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEh4r4iQiBU

http://www.southsoundprairies.org/th...pocket-gopher/

..................

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 12:48:41 PM UTC+1, Rupert Bear wrote:

takin care of oor planet...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1CkPYtzSAI


Yeah,, shoot shovel and shut up...!

Cut down the trees..

Before the woodpeckers move in...


Fat boy wants returns on his investment..

The Planet/Biodiversity,, Pays,,,

Try thinking about some of this stuff..

While your out there working for rich folks..
Fat wallets an greedy ghetts,,,

They sit inside with their filtered air conditioning..

An watch you...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=36E4tTjkPZ4#!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV98BoANP5k

http://aircrap.org/category/chemtrail-news/

It is climate engineering...













One can be sure themes frontal lobs issa focussing on the their very

near future,, (next cabbage)...



.....................





Its typical of the goats to focus on a seductive do-goody

save the earth plan ,,, while continuing

to exterminate the African Elephant and fell the great forests

it lived in,,,

It may well be the greatest of all the keystone specie

on our unique goldilocks planet....



You know ,, tha tiny little orb in the vast expanse of

hostile space and desolate worlds...

Our world,, that was uniquely gifted with life that somehow

survived and thrived,, till the greedy goat got in wi the cabbages..



Anyway ,,



I was watching a pair of Goldfinches in the garden yesterday,,

they were feeding on dandelion heads,, and I was struck by

how closely the yellow flash on their wings

matched with the yellow dandelion,, and wondered about

the little red bonnets they wear,,in a richer meadow

environment,, maybe there was a red flower helps them to blend in

while feeding...



The arid semi desert flowers in great abundance and variety

when it does get some water.. Animals come from far and wide,

they follow the rains into the dry areas,,



Meercats have been compared to the prairie dog..



And I wonder if there is something to learn here



Re management of land and grazing animals,,in the semi-arid area..

buffalo roamed,, once apon a time in N America...

And yes,, the injuns probly did do a bit of burning too.....



However,,



Pages of interest can be found here..



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEh4r4iQiBU



http://www.southsoundprairies.org/th...pocket-gopher/



.................

On Monday, May 13, 2013 1:39:11 PM UTC+1, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
... well, to an extent, I was right but that wasn't the whole picture.

http://www.wimp.com/greendeserts/

Interesting, watched most of it, will watch the rest later and read the criticsms levelled against it.

I'd have thought the grassland was grassland because grass is the plant that best tolerates being grazed to the ground whilst being stomped and crapped on by ruminants. I'd bet there were other dominant plant species there before the nomads passed through with their goats, killing and burning everything but the grass.

The few bits of the UK that I've seen that had been untouched by humans and grazing herds had reverted to nearly impenetrable jungle, unless trees had shaded out the ground cover. Much of the rough hill land was covered with forests and has turned to wet deserts when the tress were felled, now capable of supporting a few sheep per acre in summer.

On 15/05/2013 20:58, Onetap wrote:
The few bits of the UK that I've seen that had been untouched by humans and grazing herds had reverted to nearly impenetrable jungle,

As a matter of interest, where were they?

The only bit I know of - Askham Bog, near York - is indeed nearly
impenetrable. There's almost no untouched land in Britain.

Andy

On Thursday, May 16, 2013 9:26:35 AM UTC+1, Andy Champ wrote:
On 15/05/2013 20:58, Onetap wrote:

The few bits of the UK that I've seen that had been untouched by humans and grazing herds had reverted to nearly impenetrable jungle,



As a matter of interest, where were they?



The only bit I know of - Askham Bog, near York - is indeed nearly

impenetrable. There's almost no untouched land in Britain.

A few on private land; bits of MoD trainig areas where it's inadvisable to go.

On 16/05/13 09:26, Andy Champ wrote:
On 15/05/2013 20:58, Onetap wrote:
The few bits of the UK that I've seen that had been untouched by
humans and grazing herds had reverted to nearly impenetrable jungle,

As a matter of interest, where were they?

My back garden for one. OK untouched by humans for about 40 years. It
was dark impenetrable thorn scrub under which NOTHING grew except mushrooms.

I cut all but a couple of trees down, and now its a wildflower meadow
instead :-)

Whether the land is managed by man or animals, its always being 'managed'

The only bit I know of - Askham Bog, near York - is indeed nearly
impenetrable. There's almost no untouched land in Britain.

Andy


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 16/05/2013 11:25, Onetap wrote:
A few on private land; bits of MoD trainig areas where it's inadvisable to go.

I'll be surprised if many of them have been untouched for more than a
couple of hundred years.

Apparently Askham Bog hasn't been touched since the glaciers wiped it over.

Andy

In message , Andy Champ
writes
On 15/05/2013 20:58, Onetap wrote:
The few bits of the UK that I've seen that had been untouched by
humans and grazing herds had reverted to nearly impenetrable jungle,

As a matter of interest, where were they?

The only bit I know of - Askham Bog, near York - is indeed nearly
impenetrable. There's almost no untouched land in Britain.

I've been watching a bit of abandoned *hand dug* gravel next to my
boundary.

It started off as brambles and neatly mown herbage (Rabbits).

1953 brought Mixie and seedling Hawthorn/Blackthorn got a start.

These have now matured so the canopy prevents much undergrowth and you
can walk easily. There are some hardwoods but not as many as the
literature promises. Open rides are choked with Nettle and Bramble.
--
Tim Lamb

On Thursday, May 16, 2013 2:28:23 PM UTC+1, Andy Champ wrote:

I'll be surprised if many of them have been untouched for more than a

couple of hundred years.

I meant for a generation, or so. After that i'd think it would revert to forest with fewer plants at ground level.