I have some stage props that are made of wood and are about 3ft wide,
3ft high, and 18inches from front to back. They contain 12V rechargeable
batteries and two enclosed halogen lights (12W). Other than that they
are empty boxes. There is no mains connection.
Do these items need PAT testing? Does anyone have experience of dealing
with fire officers about such matters?

Bill

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. You may come
across a "safety officer" who thinks anything electrical has to have a
PAT sticker...

Does anyone have experience of dealing with fire officers about such
matters?

Fire risk is another matter though, is there "adequate"
ventilation/cooling of the lamps?

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

They contain 12V rechargeable batteries and two enclosed halogen
lights (12W). Other than that they are empty boxes. There is no mains
connection.

In that case, there is very little electrical risk, so a risk assessment
will show that they may not need testing, but, there is a fire risk even
with 12v, and especially with 12v halogens.


--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:30:47 PM UTC, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:
There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?
PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...
I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

They contain 12V rechargeable batteries and two enclosed halogen
lights (12W). Other than that they are empty boxes. There is no mains
connection.
In that case, there is very little electrical risk, so a risk assessment
will show that they may not need testing, but, there is a fire risk even
with 12v, and especially with 12v halogens.

Fuse batteries, glass screen halogens, SLA to avoid spill, mount so wood's at safe temps.


NT

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:30:47 PM UTC, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:
There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?
PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...
I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

They contain 12V rechargeable batteries and two enclosed halogen
lights (12W). Other than that they are empty boxes. There is no mains
connection.
In that case, there is very little electrical risk, so a risk assessment
will show that they may not need testing, but, there is a fire risk even
with 12v, and especially with 12v halogens.

Fuse batteries, glass screen halogens, SLA to avoid spill, mount so wood's at safe temps.


NT

What would you fuse the batteries to? What temperature would you raise
them to for the fusion process?

Methinks anything containing halogens and emitting light would have a
glass screen incidentally.

What's an SLA?

Even a Thespian may have a problem turning 12Watts into an inferno.

As a final point, low voltage equipment is included in PAT regs. If
the equipment has an incorporated mains supply, even the LV bits must
be intact and fit for purpose.

HN

On 20/03/2013 22:44, Archibald wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:30:47 PM UTC, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:
There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?
PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...
I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

They contain 12V rechargeable batteries and two enclosed halogen
lights (12W). Other than that they are empty boxes. There is no mains
connection.
In that case, there is very little electrical risk, so a risk assessment
will show that they may not need testing, but, there is a fire risk even
with 12v, and especially with 12v halogens.

Fuse batteries, glass screen halogens, SLA to avoid spill, mount so wood's at safe temps.


NT

What would you fuse the batteries to? What temperature would you raise
them to for the fusion process?

Methinks anything containing halogens and emitting light would have a
glass screen incidentally.

What's an SLA?

Even a Thespian may have a problem turning 12Watts into an inferno.

As a final point, low voltage equipment is included in PAT regs. If
the equipment has an incorporated mains supply, even the LV bits must
be intact and fit for purpose.

HN

Of course it is. Most PAT is about 230V - which is LV.

How about ELV? :-)

--
Rod

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 10:44:24 PM UTC, Archibald wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:30:47 PM UTC, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:
There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?
PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...
I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

They contain 12V rechargeable batteries and two enclosed halogen
lights (12W). Other than that they are empty boxes. There is no mains
connection.
In that case, there is very little electrical risk, so a risk assessment
will show that they may not need testing, but, there is a fire risk even
with 12v, and especially with 12v halogens.

Fuse batteries, glass screen halogens, SLA to avoid spill, mount so wood's at safe temps.


NT
What would you fuse the batteries to? What temperature would you raise
them to for the fusion process?
Methinks anything containing halogens and emitting light would have a
glass screen incidentally.

then you'd be wrong


What's an SLA?
Even a Thespian may have a problem turning 12Watts into an inferno.

Maybe. An engineer wouldnt.

As a final point, low voltage equipment is included in PAT regs. If
the equipment has an incorporated mains supply, even the LV bits must
be intact and fit for purpose.
HN

wallwarts are widely used to get round that, could be a useful strategy for the op.


NT

Archibald wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:30:47 PM UTC, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:
There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?
PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...
I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

They contain 12V rechargeable batteries and two enclosed halogen
lights (12W). Other than that they are empty boxes. There is no mains
connection.
In that case, there is very little electrical risk, so a risk assessment
will show that they may not need testing, but, there is a fire risk even
with 12v, and especially with 12v halogens.

Fuse batteries, glass screen halogens, SLA to avoid spill, mount so wood's at safe temps.


NT

What would you fuse the batteries to? What temperature would you raise
them to for the fusion process?

Methinks anything containing halogens and emitting light would have a
glass screen incidentally.

What's an SLA?


Sealed lead acid.

On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

Colin Bignell

Nightjar wrote:

On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

In-service Inspection and testing has nothing to do with just 'portable'
equipment.
Electric showers, hand dryers, HV equipment are all covered.


--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

On Mar 21, 7:05*am, (A.Lee) wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

In-service Inspection and testing has nothing to do with just 'portable'
equipment.
Electric showers, hand dryers, HV equipment are all covered.

What do you think the P in PAT is for? Prat? Picnic? Purple?

MBQ

On 21/03/2013 07:05, A.Lee wrote:
Nightjar wrote:

On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

In-service Inspection and testing has nothing to do with just 'portable'
equipment.
Electric showers, hand dryers, HV equipment are all covered.

Portable Appliance Testing, which the question was about, does though.

Colin Bignell

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:30:47 +0000, (A.Lee) wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

I can't say I've ever encountered a 230v emergency lighting system;
only 48/50v ones. Even they're a bit large to be called "portable",
and they've always been "hard-wired" to the mains.


They contain 12V rechargeable batteries and two enclosed halogen
lights (12W). Other than that they are empty boxes. There is no mains
connection.

In that case, there is very little electrical risk, so a risk assessment
will show that they may not need testing, but, there is a fire risk even
with 12v, and especially with 12v halogens.

I've constructed several "practical props" ("pracs") for stage use.
The essential thing is to use common sense. Very often a prac is only
in operational use for a few seconds or minutes, so overheating
shouldn't be a problem in this case if you give some thought to your
design.

NEVER EVER trust an actor/actress to switch, say, a light on or off on
a set. Fit a light switch which the luvvie can (hopefully) put their
hand near, but ALWAYS have the light controlled by the lighting tech.

Similarly with on-stage telephones. If a phone has to ring it's usual
for it to have its handset properly seated in its cradle - DON'T rely
on that when it has to ring. Use a separate bell, controlled by fx.


--
Frank Erskine

Frank Erskine wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:30:47 +0000, (A.Lee) wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

I can't say I've ever encountered a 230v emergency lighting system;
only 48/50v ones. Even they're a bit large to be called "portable",
and they've always been "hard-wired" to the mains.

That was just an example. In-service Inspection covers 'all electrical
systems', which does include battery powered appliances. A risk
assessment will show a 12V battery pack supplying a lamp will be of very
low risk, so maybe not worthy of testing.

'Portable' is a poor way of describing In-service inspection and testing
(the 'proper name). It covers "(from the code of practice), "all
electrical equipment, whether permanently connected, or connected by a
plug and socket"


--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

On Mar 21, 7:05*am, (A.Lee) wrote:
Frank Erskine wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:30:47 +0000, (A.Lee) wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

I can't say I've ever encountered a 230v emergency lighting system;
only 48/50v ones. Even they're a bit large to be called "portable",
and they've always been "hard-wired" to the mains.

That was just an example. In-service Inspection covers 'all electrical
systems', which does include battery powered appliances. A risk
assessment will show a 12V battery pack supplying a lamp will be of very
low risk, so maybe not worthy of testing.

*will*? That's sounds like a very poor pre-judged risk asessment done
by someone who is not competent.

MBQ

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:57:14 GMT, wrote:

On 21 Mar,
Frank Erskine wrote:

I can't say I've ever encountered a 230v emergency lighting system;
only 48/50v ones. Even they're a bit large to be called "portable",
and they've always been "hard-wired" to the mains.

I've come across 240vDC emergency lighting, but it predated PAT testing, and
wasn't happy with any variety of lighting other than filament lights.

More recently 110v DC emergency lighting, but fixed wiring so not subject to
PAT testing. It was a pain checking the batteries on both systems, quite a
lot of cells, and the 240 volt system had lots of 1kw lamps.

I've worked on 120v DC "continuity sets", and as you say checking the
batteries is a PITA. Testing pilot cells now and again wasn't too bad,
but testing SG and voltages of every cell was best avoided where
possible ;-)

73 -

--

Frank Erskine

Sent from my 286 desktop

On Friday, March 22, 2013 1:39:15 AM UTC, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:57:14 GMT, wrote:



On 21 Mar,

Frank Erskine wrote:



I can't say I've ever encountered a 230v emergency lighting system;

only 48/50v ones. Even they're a bit large to be called "portable",

and they've always been "hard-wired" to the mains.



I've come across 240vDC emergency lighting, but it predated PAT testing, and

wasn't happy with any variety of lighting other than filament lights.



More recently 110v DC emergency lighting, but fixed wiring so not subject to

PAT testing. It was a pain checking the batteries on both systems, quite a

lot of cells, and the 240 volt system had lots of 1kw lamps.



I've worked on 120v DC "continuity sets", and as you say checking the

batteries is a PITA. Testing pilot cells now and again wasn't too bad,

but testing SG and voltages of every cell was best avoided where

possible ;-)



73 -



--



Frank Erskine



Sent from my 286 desktop

286? Surely not. Even win3.0 probably wouldn't run on that.


NT

In article ,
writes:
On 21 Mar,
Frank Erskine wrote:

I can't say I've ever encountered a 230v emergency lighting system;
only 48/50v ones. Even they're a bit large to be called "portable",
and they've always been "hard-wired" to the mains.

I've come across 240vDC emergency lighting, but it predated PAT testing, and
wasn't happy with any variety of lighting other than filament lights.

Most modern fluorescent electronic ballasts are specifically rated
for DC battery supplies too, typically 160-270V, but no startup
below 190V.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:00:46 -0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. You may come
across a "safety officer" who thinks anything electrical has to have a
PAT sticker...

I came across one who declared a power supply was dangerous as it had an exposed 5 volt line and was about to put a red sticker on it. I grabbed the exposed wire and asked him why he thought it dangerous. He walked away.

--
If I were two faced, would I be wearing this one?

On Friday, March 22, 2013 2:22:39 PM UTC, Major Scott wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:00:46 -0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:



On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:



There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?



PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. You may come

across a "safety officer" who thinks anything electrical has to have a

PAT sticker...



I came across one who declared a power supply was dangerous as it had an exposed 5 volt line and was about to put a red sticker on it. I grabbed the exposed wire and asked him why he thought it dangerous. He walked away.

I had two 24V antex TC soldering irons fail because the earth coloured lead was showing on the silicone double instulated cable fron the iron the the 24V PSU.
The excuse wss that at 24V 2 amps it could cause a fire.
So I cut the ends off and threw them away and brought two news ones at ~£18 each.

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:58:46 -0000, whisky-dave wrote:

On Friday, March 22, 2013 2:22:39 PM UTC, Major Scott wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:00:46 -0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:



On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:



There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?



PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. You may come

across a "safety officer" who thinks anything electrical has to have a

PAT sticker...



I came across one who declared a power supply was dangerous as it had an exposed 5 volt line and was about to put a red sticker on it. I grabbed the exposed wire and asked him why he thought it dangerous. He walked away.

I had two 24V antex TC soldering irons fail because the earth coloured lead was showing on the silicone double instulated cable fron the iron the the 24V PSU.
The excuse wss that at 24V 2 amps it could cause a fire.
So I cut the ends off and threw them away and brought two news ones at ~£18 each.

Hang on.... a fire? From a HOT soldering iron? Never. Oh the irony.

--
A scientist from Texas A&M University has invented a bra that keeps women's breasts from jiggling and prevents the nipples from pushing through the fabric when cold weather sets in.
At a news conference announcing the invention, the scientist was taken outside by a group of cowboys, who then proceeded to kick the **** out of him.