PAT testing for stage use
 

I have some stage props that are made of wood and are about 3ft wide,
3ft high, and 18inches from front to back. They contain 12V rechargeable
batteries and two enclosed halogen lights (12W). Other than that they
are empty boxes. There is no mains connection.
Do these items need PAT testing? Does anyone have experience of dealing
with fire officers about such matters?

Bill

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. You may come
across a "safety officer" who thinks anything electrical has to have a
PAT sticker...

Does anyone have experience of dealing with fire officers about such
matters?

Fire risk is another matter though, is there "adequate"
ventilation/cooling of the lamps?

--
Cheers
Dave.

PAT testing for stage use
 

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

They contain 12V rechargeable batteries and two enclosed halogen
lights (12W). Other than that they are empty boxes. There is no mains
connection.

In that case, there is very little electrical risk, so a risk assessment
will show that they may not need testing, but, there is a fire risk even
with 12v, and especially with 12v halogens.


--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:30:47 PM UTC, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:
There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?
PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...
I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

They contain 12V rechargeable batteries and two enclosed halogen
lights (12W). Other than that they are empty boxes. There is no mains
connection.
In that case, there is very little electrical risk, so a risk assessment
will show that they may not need testing, but, there is a fire risk even
with 12v, and especially with 12v halogens.

Fuse batteries, glass screen halogens, SLA to avoid spill, mount so wood's at safe temps.


NT

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:30:47 PM UTC, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:
There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?
PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...
I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

They contain 12V rechargeable batteries and two enclosed halogen
lights (12W). Other than that they are empty boxes. There is no mains
connection.
In that case, there is very little electrical risk, so a risk assessment
will show that they may not need testing, but, there is a fire risk even
with 12v, and especially with 12v halogens.

Fuse batteries, glass screen halogens, SLA to avoid spill, mount so wood's at safe temps.


NT

What would you fuse the batteries to? What temperature would you raise
them to for the fusion process?

Methinks anything containing halogens and emitting light would have a
glass screen incidentally.

What's an SLA?

Even a Thespian may have a problem turning 12Watts into an inferno.

As a final point, low voltage equipment is included in PAT regs. If
the equipment has an incorporated mains supply, even the LV bits must
be intact and fit for purpose.

HN

PAT testing for stage use
 

On 20/03/2013 22:44, Archibald wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:30:47 PM UTC, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:
There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?
PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...
I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

They contain 12V rechargeable batteries and two enclosed halogen
lights (12W). Other than that they are empty boxes. There is no mains
connection.
In that case, there is very little electrical risk, so a risk assessment
will show that they may not need testing, but, there is a fire risk even
with 12v, and especially with 12v halogens.

Fuse batteries, glass screen halogens, SLA to avoid spill, mount so wood's at safe temps.


NT

What would you fuse the batteries to? What temperature would you raise
them to for the fusion process?

Methinks anything containing halogens and emitting light would have a
glass screen incidentally.

What's an SLA?

Even a Thespian may have a problem turning 12Watts into an inferno.

As a final point, low voltage equipment is included in PAT regs. If
the equipment has an incorporated mains supply, even the LV bits must
be intact and fit for purpose.

HN

Of course it is. Most PAT is about 230V - which is LV.

How about ELV? :-)

--
Rod

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 10:44:24 PM UTC, Archibald wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:30:47 PM UTC, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:
There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?
PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...
I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

They contain 12V rechargeable batteries and two enclosed halogen
lights (12W). Other than that they are empty boxes. There is no mains
connection.
In that case, there is very little electrical risk, so a risk assessment
will show that they may not need testing, but, there is a fire risk even
with 12v, and especially with 12v halogens.

Fuse batteries, glass screen halogens, SLA to avoid spill, mount so wood's at safe temps.


NT
What would you fuse the batteries to? What temperature would you raise
them to for the fusion process?
Methinks anything containing halogens and emitting light would have a
glass screen incidentally.

then you'd be wrong


What's an SLA?
Even a Thespian may have a problem turning 12Watts into an inferno.

Maybe. An engineer wouldnt.

As a final point, low voltage equipment is included in PAT regs. If
the equipment has an incorporated mains supply, even the LV bits must
be intact and fit for purpose.
HN

wallwarts are widely used to get round that, could be a useful strategy for the op.


NT

PAT testing for stage use
 

On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

Colin Bignell

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:30:47 +0000, (A.Lee) wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

I can't say I've ever encountered a 230v emergency lighting system;
only 48/50v ones. Even they're a bit large to be called "portable",
and they've always been "hard-wired" to the mains.


They contain 12V rechargeable batteries and two enclosed halogen
lights (12W). Other than that they are empty boxes. There is no mains
connection.

In that case, there is very little electrical risk, so a risk assessment
will show that they may not need testing, but, there is a fire risk even
with 12v, and especially with 12v halogens.

I've constructed several "practical props" ("pracs") for stage use.
The essential thing is to use common sense. Very often a prac is only
in operational use for a few seconds or minutes, so overheating
shouldn't be a problem in this case if you give some thought to your
design.

NEVER EVER trust an actor/actress to switch, say, a light on or off on
a set. Fit a light switch which the luvvie can (hopefully) put their
hand near, but ALWAYS have the light controlled by the lighting tech.

Similarly with on-stage telephones. If a phone has to ring it's usual
for it to have its handset properly seated in its cradle - DON'T rely
on that when it has to ring. Use a separate bell, controlled by fx.


--
Frank Erskine

PAT testing for stage use
 

Archibald wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:30:47 PM UTC, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:
There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?
PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...
I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

They contain 12V rechargeable batteries and two enclosed halogen
lights (12W). Other than that they are empty boxes. There is no mains
connection.
In that case, there is very little electrical risk, so a risk assessment
will show that they may not need testing, but, there is a fire risk even
with 12v, and especially with 12v halogens.

Fuse batteries, glass screen halogens, SLA to avoid spill, mount so wood's at safe temps.


NT

What would you fuse the batteries to? What temperature would you raise
them to for the fusion process?

Methinks anything containing halogens and emitting light would have a
glass screen incidentally.

What's an SLA?


Sealed lead acid.

PAT testing for stage use
 

Nightjar wrote:

On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

In-service Inspection and testing has nothing to do with just 'portable'
equipment.
Electric showers, hand dryers, HV equipment are all covered.


--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

PAT testing for stage use
 

Frank Erskine wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:30:47 +0000, (A.Lee) wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

I can't say I've ever encountered a 230v emergency lighting system;
only 48/50v ones. Even they're a bit large to be called "portable",
and they've always been "hard-wired" to the mains.

That was just an example. In-service Inspection covers 'all electrical
systems', which does include battery powered appliances. A risk
assessment will show a 12V battery pack supplying a lamp will be of very
low risk, so maybe not worthy of testing.

'Portable' is a poor way of describing In-service inspection and testing
(the 'proper name). It covers "(from the code of practice), "all
electrical equipment, whether permanently connected, or connected by a
plug and socket"


--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

PAT testing for stage use
 

On 21/03/13 01:27, F Murtz wrote:
Archibald wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:30:47 PM UTC, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:
There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?
PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...
I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

They contain 12V rechargeable batteries and two enclosed halogen
lights (12W). Other than that they are empty boxes. There is no mains
connection.
In that case, there is very little electrical risk, so a risk
assessment
will show that they may not need testing, but, there is a fire risk
even
with 12v, and especially with 12v halogens.

Fuse batteries, glass screen halogens, SLA to avoid spill, mount so
wood's at safe temps.


NT

What would you fuse the batteries to? What temperature would you raise
them to for the fusion process?

Methinks anything containing halogens and emitting light would have a
glass screen incidentally.

What's an SLA?


Sealed lead acid.




service level agreement
Symbionese liberation army
Seven letter acronym.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Mar 21, 7:05*am, (A.Lee) wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

In-service Inspection and testing has nothing to do with just 'portable'
equipment.
Electric showers, hand dryers, HV equipment are all covered.

What do you think the P in PAT is for? Prat? Picnic? Purple?

MBQ

PAT testing for stage use
 

On 21/03/2013 07:05, A.Lee wrote:
Nightjar wrote:

On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

In-service Inspection and testing has nothing to do with just 'portable'
equipment.
Electric showers, hand dryers, HV equipment are all covered.

Portable Appliance Testing, which the question was about, does though.

Colin Bignell

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Mar 21, 7:05*am, (A.Lee) wrote:
Frank Erskine wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:30:47 +0000, (A.Lee) wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

I can't say I've ever encountered a 230v emergency lighting system;
only 48/50v ones. Even they're a bit large to be called "portable",
and they've always been "hard-wired" to the mains.

That was just an example. In-service Inspection covers 'all electrical
systems', which does include battery powered appliances. A risk
assessment will show a 12V battery pack supplying a lamp will be of very
low risk, so maybe not worthy of testing.

*will*? That's sounds like a very poor pre-judged risk asessment done
by someone who is not competent.

MBQ

PAT testing for stage use
 

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 21/03/13 01:27, F Murtz wrote:
Archibald wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:30:47 PM UTC, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:
There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?
PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...
I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

They contain 12V rechargeable batteries and two enclosed halogen
lights (12W). Other than that they are empty boxes. There is no mains
connection.
In that case, there is very little electrical risk, so a risk
assessment
will show that they may not need testing, but, there is a fire risk
even
with 12v, and especially with 12v halogens.

Fuse batteries, glass screen halogens, SLA to avoid spill, mount so
wood's at safe temps.


NT

What would you fuse the batteries to? What temperature would you raise
them to for the fusion process?

Methinks anything containing halogens and emitting light would have a
glass screen incidentally.

What's an SLA?


Sealed lead acid.




service level agreement
Symbionese liberation army
Seven letter acronym.

Them too.

PAT testing for stage use
 

In article ,
"Man at B&Q" writes:
On Mar 21, 7:05*am, (A.Lee) wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

In-service Inspection and testing has nothing to do with just 'portable'
equipment.
Electric showers, hand dryers, HV equipment are all covered.
What do you think the P in PAT is for? Prat? Picnic? Purple?

Portable - but it's the testing that must be portable, not
the appliance being tested (which should be tested at point
of use whenever possible, and not moved to a testing location).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

PAT testing for stage use
 

In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote:
In article
,
"Man at B&Q" writes:
On Mar 21, 7:05 am, (A.Lee) wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system
fed by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

In-service Inspection and testing has nothing to do with just
'portable' equipment. Electric showers, hand dryers, HV equipment are
all covered.
What do you think the P in PAT is for? Prat? Picnic? Purple?

Portable - but it's the testing that must be portable, not the appliance
being tested (which should be tested at point of use whenever possible,
and not moved to a testing location).


who invented that idea? It's the testing of "Portable Appliances". That
came in because they tended to get ignored when the installation was
tested. It all comes under the "Electricity at Work Regulations".

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

PAT testing for stage use
 

In article ,
charles writes:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote:
In article
,
"Man at B&Q" writes:
On Mar 21, 7:05 am, (A.Lee) wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system
fed by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

In-service Inspection and testing has nothing to do with just
'portable' equipment. Electric showers, hand dryers, HV equipment are
all covered.
What do you think the P in PAT is for? Prat? Picnic? Purple?

Portable - but it's the testing that must be portable, not the appliance
being tested (which should be tested at point of use whenever possible,
and not moved to a testing location).


who invented that idea? It's the testing of "Portable Appliances". That
came in because they tended to get ignored when the installation was
tested. It all comes under the "Electricity at Work Regulations".

Already answered back up the thread - it's called In-Service Inspection
and testing of Electrical Equipment, not PAT. The testing has to be
carried in the context of the use, not of the appliance in isolation.
There might be nothing electrically wrong with a hot air paint stripper,
but unless you can see it's been provided has a hand drier in the gents,
you will not fail its testing as you should. Likewise, you might be
presented with an Argos £10 kettle which is brand new, but unless
you can see it's being used by an office of 100 people at 100% duty
cycle, you are unlikely to fail it as unsuitable for use or requiring
a very short retest period (which is unlikely to be economic).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Mar 21, 11:45*am, charles wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel









wrote:
In article
,
"Man at B&Q" writes:
On Mar 21, 7:05 am, (A.Lee) wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system
fed by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

In-service Inspection and testing has nothing to do with just
'portable' equipment. Electric showers, hand dryers, HV equipment are
all covered.
What do you think the P in PAT is for? Prat? Picnic? Purple?
Portable - but it's the testing that must be portable, not the appliance
being tested (which should be tested at point of use whenever possible,
and not moved to a testing location).

who invented that idea? *It's the testing of "Portable Appliances". *That
came in because they tended to get ignored when the installation was
tested. *It all comes under the "Electricity at Work Regulations".

I'm with you.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/hsg107.htm

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg236.htm

both linked from http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/fa...ce-testing.htm

Unfortunateky the IEE/IET make it difficult to read their docs nles
you pay.

MBQ

PAT testing for stage use
 

On 21/03/2013 11:45, charles wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote:
In article
,
"Man at B&Q" writes:
On Mar 21, 7:05 am, (A.Lee) wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system
fed by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

In-service Inspection and testing has nothing to do with just
'portable' equipment. Electric showers, hand dryers, HV equipment are
all covered.
What do you think the P in PAT is for? Prat? Picnic? Purple?

Portable - but it's the testing that must be portable, not the appliance
being tested (which should be tested at point of use whenever possible,
and not moved to a testing location).


who invented that idea? It's the testing of "Portable Appliances". That
came in because they tended to get ignored when the installation was
tested. It all comes under the "Electricity at Work Regulations".


Certainly when it was introduced, the general rule was that, if you
could plug it in to a wall socket, it required PAT. If it was hard
wired, it did not.

Colin Bignell

PAT testing for stage use
 

Man at B&Q wrote:

On Mar 21, 7:05 am, (A.Lee) wrote:

That was just an example. In-service Inspection covers 'all electrical
systems', which does include battery powered appliances. A risk
assessment will show a 12V battery pack supplying a lamp will be of very
low risk, so maybe not worthy of testing.

*will*? That's sounds like a very poor pre-judged risk asessment done
by someone who is not competent.

You really are the thickest of thick ****s aren't you?
A 12v halogen bulb supplied by a battery - of course it WILL be a very
low electrical risk, so as I stated, it may not be worth testing, which
the Inspector will assess when he sees it.


--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

PAT testing for stage use
 

Man at B&Q wrote:

On Mar 21, 7:05 am, (A.Lee) wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

In-service Inspection and testing has nothing to do with just 'portable'
equipment.
Electric showers, hand dryers, HV equipment are all covered.

What do you think the P in PAT is for? Prat? Picnic? Purple?

Ok thicko, go and get a copy of the Code of Practice, have a read of
what it says, then come back and apologise.
The term 'Portable appliance tester' was brought in by one of the test
instrument makers, and it stuck as an acronym, but is wrong, as the
equipment tested does NOT have to be portable.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

PAT testing for stage use
 

Nightjar wrote:

On 21/03/2013 07:05, A.Lee wrote:
Nightjar wrote:

On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

In-service Inspection and testing has nothing to do with just 'portable'
equipment.
Electric showers, hand dryers, HV equipment are all covered.

Portable Appliance Testing, which the question was about, does though.

As already stated, the term PAT was brought in by one of the instrument
makers, the regime for doing the Inspection and testing is called the
'In-service Inspection and testing of electrical equipment'.

And it covers all electrical equipment whether plugged in or permanently
fixed.


--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Mar 21, 4:16*pm, (A.Lee) wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:

On Mar 21, 7:05 am, (A.Lee) wrote:
That was just an example. In-service Inspection covers 'all electrical
systems', which does include battery powered appliances. A risk
assessment will show a 12V battery pack supplying a lamp will be of very
low risk, so maybe not worthy of testing.

*will*? That's sounds like a very poor pre-judged risk asessment done
by someone who is not competent.

You really are the thickest of thick ****s aren't you?

You debase your argument with ad hominem.

A 12v halogen bulb supplied by a battery - of course it WILL be a very
low electrical risk, so *as I stated, it may not be worth testing, which
the Inspector will assess when he sees it.

Is a short across a car battery very low risk? I would want to see the
system before pre-judging that it is, or is not, definitely a low
risk. It's this kind of silines that give H&S a bad name. You need to
apply some common sense.

MBQ

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Mar 21, 4:19*pm, (A.Lee) wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:









On Mar 21, 7:05 am, (A.Lee) wrote:
Nightjar wrote:
On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

In-service Inspection and testing has nothing to do with just 'portable'
equipment.
Electric showers, hand dryers, HV equipment are all covered.

What do you think the P in PAT is for? Prat? Picnic? Purple?

Ok thicko, go and get a copy of the Code of Practice, have a read of
what it says, then come back and apologise.

Learn to be civil and I might, if it's justified.

MBQ

PAT testing for stage use
 

On 21/03/2013 16:22, A.Lee wrote:
Nightjar wrote:

On 21/03/2013 07:05, A.Lee wrote:
Nightjar wrote:

On 20/03/2013 20:30, A.Lee wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. ...

I don't think that is true. How about an emergency lighting system fed
by a bank of batteries at 230v?

Doesn't sound very portable to me.

In-service Inspection and testing has nothing to do with just 'portable'
equipment.
Electric showers, hand dryers, HV equipment are all covered.

Portable Appliance Testing, which the question was about, does though.

As already stated, the term PAT was brought in by one of the instrument
makers, the regime for doing the Inspection and testing is called the
'In-service Inspection and testing of electrical equipment'.

And it covers all electrical equipment whether plugged in or permanently
fixed.

That may be what it has evolved into over the years, but when the
Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 came out, there was a quite clear
distinction made between the established inspection of installed
equipment and what was seen as a new requirement to extend that to
portable appliances, to the extent that a Factory Inspector informed me
that I should have a PAT sticker on a 2 ton lathe, because it was
connected to the 3 phase supply by a plug and socket, which made it
portable.

Colin Bignell

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:57:14 GMT, wrote:

On 21 Mar,
Frank Erskine wrote:

I can't say I've ever encountered a 230v emergency lighting system;
only 48/50v ones. Even they're a bit large to be called "portable",
and they've always been "hard-wired" to the mains.

I've come across 240vDC emergency lighting, but it predated PAT testing, and
wasn't happy with any variety of lighting other than filament lights.

More recently 110v DC emergency lighting, but fixed wiring so not subject to
PAT testing. It was a pain checking the batteries on both systems, quite a
lot of cells, and the 240 volt system had lots of 1kw lamps.

I've worked on 120v DC "continuity sets", and as you say checking the
batteries is a PITA. Testing pilot cells now and again wasn't too bad,
but testing SG and voltages of every cell was best avoided where
possible ;-)

73 -

--

Frank Erskine

Sent from my 286 desktop

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Friday, March 22, 2013 1:39:15 AM UTC, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:57:14 GMT, wrote:



On 21 Mar,

Frank Erskine wrote:



I can't say I've ever encountered a 230v emergency lighting system;

only 48/50v ones. Even they're a bit large to be called "portable",

and they've always been "hard-wired" to the mains.



I've come across 240vDC emergency lighting, but it predated PAT testing, and

wasn't happy with any variety of lighting other than filament lights.



More recently 110v DC emergency lighting, but fixed wiring so not subject to

PAT testing. It was a pain checking the batteries on both systems, quite a

lot of cells, and the 240 volt system had lots of 1kw lamps.



I've worked on 120v DC "continuity sets", and as you say checking the

batteries is a PITA. Testing pilot cells now and again wasn't too bad,

but testing SG and voltages of every cell was best avoided where

possible ;-)



73 -



--



Frank Erskine



Sent from my 286 desktop

286? Surely not. Even win3.0 probably wouldn't run on that.


NT

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Thursday, March 21, 2013 4:44:57 PM UTC, Man at B&Q wrote:
On Mar 21, 4:16 pm, (A.Lee) wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Mar 21, 7:05 am, (A.Lee) wrote:

A 12v halogen bulb supplied by a battery - of course it WILL be a very
low electrical risk, so as I stated, it may not be worth testing, which
the Inspector will assess when he sees it.

Sorry but its trivially easy to construct a lead acid and a light in a box to make it a high risk. Anyone that doesn't realise the issues is liable to do just that.

This reminds me of the first stage lighting I ever encountered. 8 GLS filament lamps in a wooden housing lined with ali foil, all wired up with bell wire. After several minutes the fuseboard fuse blew, and the wiring was found to be badly molten. No earth, no fuse, no consideration of cable rating or the temp the wood enclosure would reach, no guidance on safe lamp power, no cordgrip, bell cable used for flex, etc. Good job it wasnt fed by a lead acid battery, or it would probably have caught fire.


NT

Is a short across a car battery very low risk? I would want to see the
system before pre-judging that it is, or is not, definitely a low
risk. It's this kind of silines that give H&S a bad name. You need to
apply some common sense.
MBQ

PAT testing for stage use
 

In message ,
writes


This reminds me of the first stage lighting I ever encountered. 8 GLS
filament lamps in a wooden housing lined with ali foil, all wired up
with bell wire. After several minutes the fuseboard fuse blew, and the
wiring was found to be badly molten. No earth, no fuse, no
consideration of cable rating or the temp the wood enclosure would
reach, no guidance on safe lamp power, no cordgrip, bell cable used for
flex, etc. Good job it wasnt fed by a lead acid battery, or it would
probably have caught fire.


Many, many, years ago when I was at school, my physics teacher, who
should certainly have known better, wired up a small boat with electric
lighting. 12V, lots of lights and bell wire. It too went into melt
down. "But it's only 12V!!" MMmmmmm yes it was, but lots and lots of
amps.

So those that should know better don't always put their knowledge into
practice.

Much as I dislike rules and regulations, sometimes you have to legislate
for the idiots out there.
--
Bill

PAT testing for stage use
 

On 22/03/2013 02:08, wrote:
On Friday, March 22, 2013 1:39:15 AM UTC, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 23:57:14 GMT, wrote:
Frank Erskine



Sent from my 286 desktop

286? Surely not. Even win3.0 probably wouldn't run on that.

It runs on my Toshiba 3200SX machine, which has an Intel 80286 processor
and a 20 Megabyte HD. IIRC, I could even run it on an 8086, with the
choice being Windows or Autoroute, back in the days when Autoroute was
not Microsoft bloatware. 10 megabytes of hard drive is a touch
restrictive, but it has 2 megabytes of RAM, and would boot DOS 3.3 from
ROM in a fraction of second.

The 32 bit stuff didn't arrive until 3.11, which *did* need at least a 386.

It it also possible to get a web browser for GEM, which will run on any
x86 processor.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Friday, March 22, 2013 2:08:13 AM UTC, wrote:
On Friday, March 22, 2013 1:39:15 AM UTC, Frank Erskine wrote:
Sent from my 286 desktop
286? Surely not. Even win3.0 probably wouldn't run on that.

Windows 3.0 will run (in Real Mode) on 8086. 286 allows you to do fancy stuff like use an EGA card so you can have full colour.

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:00:46 -0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:

There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?

PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. You may come
across a "safety officer" who thinks anything electrical has to have a
PAT sticker...

I came across one who declared a power supply was dangerous as it had an exposed 5 volt line and was about to put a red sticker on it. I grabbed the exposed wire and asked him why he thought it dangerous. He walked away.

--
If I were two faced, would I be wearing this one?

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Friday, March 22, 2013 2:22:39 PM UTC, Major Scott wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:00:46 -0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:



On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:



There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?



PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. You may come

across a "safety officer" who thinks anything electrical has to have a

PAT sticker...



I came across one who declared a power supply was dangerous as it had an exposed 5 volt line and was about to put a red sticker on it. I grabbed the exposed wire and asked him why he thought it dangerous. He walked away.

I had two 24V antex TC soldering irons fail because the earth coloured lead was showing on the silicone double instulated cable fron the iron the the 24V PSU.
The excuse wss that at 24V 2 amps it could cause a fire.
So I cut the ends off and threw them away and brought two news ones at ~£18 each.

PAT testing for stage use
 

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:58:46 -0000, whisky-dave wrote:

On Friday, March 22, 2013 2:22:39 PM UTC, Major Scott wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:00:46 -0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:



On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:42:34 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:



There is no mains connection. Do these items need PAT testing?



PAT only applies to mains kit, no mains nothing to test. You may come

across a "safety officer" who thinks anything electrical has to have a

PAT sticker...



I came across one who declared a power supply was dangerous as it had an exposed 5 volt line and was about to put a red sticker on it. I grabbed the exposed wire and asked him why he thought it dangerous. He walked away.

I had two 24V antex TC soldering irons fail because the earth coloured lead was showing on the silicone double instulated cable fron the iron the the 24V PSU.
The excuse wss that at 24V 2 amps it could cause a fire.
So I cut the ends off and threw them away and brought two news ones at ~£18 each.

Hang on.... a fire? From a HOT soldering iron? Never. Oh the irony.

--
A scientist from Texas A&M University has invented a bra that keeps women's breasts from jiggling and prevents the nipples from pushing through the fabric when cold weather sets in.
At a news conference announcing the invention, the scientist was taken outside by a group of cowboys, who then proceeded to kick the **** out of him.

PAT testing for stage use
 

PAT testing for stage use
 

In article ,
writes:
On 21 Mar,
Frank Erskine wrote:

I can't say I've ever encountered a 230v emergency lighting system;
only 48/50v ones. Even they're a bit large to be called "portable",
and they've always been "hard-wired" to the mains.

I've come across 240vDC emergency lighting, but it predated PAT testing, and
wasn't happy with any variety of lighting other than filament lights.

Most modern fluorescent electronic ballasts are specifically rated
for DC battery supplies too, typically 160-270V, but no startup
below 190V.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]