I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming potentiometer yet.
But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now due to rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to the ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres.
Now fluoros can cause interference but I don't remember them causing this much.
The ballasts are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE running to the other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal clips, so no earth plane running alongside.
Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the ballast or the tubes and whether it is being picked up by the main cable of the radio, although moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary the interference.
What is the best way to deal with this ?
Simon.

In article ,
sm_jamieson writes:
I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming potentiometer yet.
But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now due to rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to the ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres.
Now fluoros can cause interference but I don't remember them causing this much.
The ballasts are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE running to the other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal clips, so no earth plane running alongside.
Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the ballast or the tubes and whether it is being picked up by the main cable of the radio, although moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary the interference.
What is the best way to deal with this ?
Simon.

Make sure ballast case is earthed.
Try threading a ferrite core on the mains supply to the ballast,
positioned near the ballast. You could also thread the wires to
the tubes through one, but they must all go through the same one.

It might be that the FM signal is weak there anyway. It would be
interesting to see how far away you have to move the radio for the
problem to go away. Does the radio have provision for an external
aerial connection? Does it make any difference if you pull out the
mains lead and run it off internal batteries (if it can)?

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:14:14 AM UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,

sm_jamieson writes:

I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming potentiometer yet.

But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now due to rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to the ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres.

Now fluoros can cause interference but I don't remember them causing this much.

The ballasts are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE running to the other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal clips, so no earth plane running alongside.

Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the ballast or the tubes and whether it is being picked up by the main cable of the radio, although moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary the interference.

What is the best way to deal with this ?

Simon.



Make sure ballast case is earthed.

Try threading a ferrite core on the mains supply to the ballast,

positioned near the ballast. You could also thread the wires to

the tubes through one, but they must all go through the same one.



It might be that the FM signal is weak there anyway. It would be

interesting to see how far away you have to move the radio for the

problem to go away. Does the radio have provision for an external

aerial connection? Does it make any difference if you pull out the

mains lead and run it off internal batteries (if it can)?


I dont have the batteries to try that at the moment.

The ballast case is not earthed directly but there is a earth terminal for on the mains supply. Maybe that is not connected to the case. Earthing the case is the easiest thing to try so I'll try that first.

Then trying the ferrite beads / clamps. From doing a quick internet search, this has solved the problem often, including in cars with HID lamps.
When you say the wires to the tubes must go though the same ferrite, do you mean all 4 wires, or the pairs of wires to each end of the tube ?

I am aware that switched mode power supplies have a ferrite lump on the cable to suppress RFI. Apparently you can get "residential grade" RFI suppressed high freq ballasts (at least in the US), and I guess maybe these just have ferrites on the cables.

Cheers,
Simon.

"sm_jamieson" wrote in message
...
On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:14:14 AM UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,

sm_jamieson writes:

I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of
kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming
potentiometer yet.

But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now due to
rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to the
ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres.

Now fluoros can cause interference but I don't remember them causing
this much.

The ballasts are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE
running to the other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal
clips, so no earth plane running alongside.

Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the ballast or the tubes and
whether it is being picked up by the main cable of the radio, although
moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary the interference.

What is the best way to deal with this ?

Simon.



Make sure ballast case is earthed.

Try threading a ferrite core on the mains supply to the ballast,

positioned near the ballast. You could also thread the wires to

the tubes through one, but they must all go through the same one.



It might be that the FM signal is weak there anyway. It would be

interesting to see how far away you have to move the radio for the

problem to go away. Does the radio have provision for an external

aerial connection? Does it make any difference if you pull out the

mains lead and run it off internal batteries (if it can)?


I dont have the batteries to try that at the moment.

The ballast case is not earthed directly but there is a earth terminal for
on the mains supply. Maybe that is not connected to the case. Earthing the
case is the easiest thing to try so I'll try that first.

Then trying the ferrite beads / clamps. From doing a quick internet
search, this has solved the problem often, including in cars with HID
lamps.
When you say the wires to the tubes must go though the same ferrite, do
you mean all 4 wires, or the pairs of wires to each end of the tube ?

I am aware that switched mode power supplies have a ferrite lump on the
cable to suppress RFI. Apparently you can get "residential grade" RFI
suppressed high freq ballasts (at least in the US), and I guess maybe
these just have ferrites on the cables.

Cheers,
Simon.


I am surprised that this is able to occur at all with commercially produced
ballasts on sale in the UK. Any equipment such as this must have CE
approval, and have EMC certification. Part of that certification requires
that the equipment does not cause interference to the operation of other
equipment. At 1.5 m distance, I would not have expected there to have been a
problem, unless there is any error with the way that you have them installed
with respect to any detailed installation instructions that came with them.
I'm thinking earthing of cases and metalwork, as suggested by Andrew, or
length and type of cable between the ballasts and flourescent fixtures.

Arfa

I've known these electronic ballasts to do all kind of mayhem, including
completely confuse a vcr on the other side of the wall in the sitting room,
and make DAB sound like boiling mud.
I'm old fashioned but the minute I see electronic on something, I think
switch mode alarm red alert!
I never had problems with good old fashioned ballasts provided the tubes
were good and the capacitor good. Of course they don't like dimmers, but
dimmers themselves are a source of interference as well unless they are of
the zero point switching type.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
sm_jamieson writes:
I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of
kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming potentiometer
yet.
But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now due to
rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to the
ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres.
Now fluoros can cause interference but I don't remember them causing this
much.
The ballasts are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE
running to the other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal clips,
so no earth plane running alongside.
Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the ballast or the tubes and
whether it is being picked up by the main cable of the radio, although
moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary the interference.
What is the best way to deal with this ?
Simon.

Make sure ballast case is earthed.
Try threading a ferrite core on the mains supply to the ballast,
positioned near the ballast. You could also thread the wires to
the tubes through one, but they must all go through the same one.

It might be that the FM signal is weak there anyway. It would be
interesting to see how far away you have to move the radio for the
problem to go away. Does the radio have provision for an external
aerial connection? Does it make any difference if you pull out the
mains lead and run it off internal batteries (if it can)?

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Unfortunately I've found that even things with the CE mark are naff. The
worst offenders are the chinese wall warts, particularly those with usb
connectiors on them for charging mp3 players etc.
I was told once that after approval the shipment missed out all the
suppression components to save money.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...


"sm_jamieson" wrote in message
...
On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:14:14 AM UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,

sm_jamieson writes:

I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of
kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming
potentiometer yet.

But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now due to
rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to the
ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres.

Now fluoros can cause interference but I don't remember them causing
this much.

The ballasts are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE
running to the other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal
clips, so no earth plane running alongside.

Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the ballast or the tubes and
whether it is being picked up by the main cable of the radio, although
moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary the interference.

What is the best way to deal with this ?

Simon.



Make sure ballast case is earthed.

Try threading a ferrite core on the mains supply to the ballast,

positioned near the ballast. You could also thread the wires to

the tubes through one, but they must all go through the same one.



It might be that the FM signal is weak there anyway. It would be

interesting to see how far away you have to move the radio for the

problem to go away. Does the radio have provision for an external

aerial connection? Does it make any difference if you pull out the

mains lead and run it off internal batteries (if it can)?


I dont have the batteries to try that at the moment.

The ballast case is not earthed directly but there is a earth terminal
for on the mains supply. Maybe that is not connected to the case.
Earthing the case is the easiest thing to try so I'll try that first.

Then trying the ferrite beads / clamps. From doing a quick internet
search, this has solved the problem often, including in cars with HID
lamps.
When you say the wires to the tubes must go though the same ferrite, do
you mean all 4 wires, or the pairs of wires to each end of the tube ?

I am aware that switched mode power supplies have a ferrite lump on the
cable to suppress RFI. Apparently you can get "residential grade" RFI
suppressed high freq ballasts (at least in the US), and I guess maybe
these just have ferrites on the cables.

Cheers,
Simon.


I am surprised that this is able to occur at all with commercially
produced ballasts on sale in the UK. Any equipment such as this must have
CE approval, and have EMC certification. Part of that certification
requires that the equipment does not cause interference to the operation
of other equipment. At 1.5 m distance, I would not have expected there to
have been a problem, unless there is any error with the way that you have
them installed with respect to any detailed installation instructions that
came with them. I'm thinking earthing of cases and metalwork, as suggested
by Andrew, or length and type of cable between the ballasts and
flourescent fixtures.

Arfa

In message , Arfa Daily
writes






I am surprised that this is able to occur at all with commercially
produced ballasts on sale in the UK. Any equipment such as this must
have CE approval, and have EMC certification. Part of that
certification requires that the equipment does not cause interference
to the operation of other equipment.

You're having a laff, surely?




--
Ian

On Jan 18, 2:15*am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
"sm_jamieson" wrote in message

...









On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:14:14 AM UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,

sm_jamieson writes:

I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of
kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming
potentiometer yet.

But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now due to
rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to the
ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres.

Now fluoros can cause interference but I don't remember them causing
this much.

The ballasts are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE
running to the other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal
clips, so no earth plane running alongside.

Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the ballast or the tubes and
whether it is being picked up by the main cable of the radio, although
moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary the interference.

What is the best way to deal with this ?

Simon.

Make sure ballast case is earthed.

Try threading a ferrite core on the mains supply to the ballast,

positioned near the ballast. You could also thread the wires to

the tubes through one, but they must all go through the same one.

It might be that the FM signal is weak there anyway. It would be

interesting to see how far away you have to move the radio for the

problem to go away. Does the radio have provision for an external

aerial connection? Does it make any difference if you pull out the

mains lead and run it off internal batteries (if it can)?

I dont have the batteries to try that at the moment.

The ballast case is not earthed directly but there is a earth terminal for
on the mains supply. Maybe that is not connected to the case. Earthing the
case is the easiest thing to try so I'll try that first.

Then trying the ferrite beads / clamps. From doing a quick internet
search, this has solved the problem often, including in cars with HID
lamps.
When you say the wires to the tubes must go though the same ferrite, do
you mean all 4 wires, or the pairs of wires to each end of the tube ?

I am aware that switched mode power supplies have a ferrite lump on the
cable to suppress RFI. Apparently you can get "residential grade" RFI
suppressed high freq ballasts (at least in the US), and I guess maybe
these just have ferrites on the cables.

Cheers,
Simon.

I am surprised that this is able to occur at all with commercially produced
ballasts on sale in the UK. Any equipment such as this must have CE
approval, and have EMC certification. Part of that certification requires
that the equipment does not cause interference to the operation of other
equipment.

It depends if the ballasts are sold as "components" in which case the
integrator of the light fitting is responsible for EMC considerations.

MBQ

On Friday, January 18, 2013 2:15:48 AM UTC, Arfa Daily wrote:
"sm_jamieson" wrote in message

...

On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:14:14 AM UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,



sm_jamieson writes:



I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of

kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming

potentiometer yet.



But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now due to

rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to the

ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres.



Now fluoros can cause interference but I don't remember them causing

this much.



The ballasts are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE

running to the other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal

clips, so no earth plane running alongside.



Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the ballast or the tubes and

whether it is being picked up by the main cable of the radio, although

moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary the interference.



What is the best way to deal with this ?



Simon.







Make sure ballast case is earthed.



Try threading a ferrite core on the mains supply to the ballast,



positioned near the ballast. You could also thread the wires to



the tubes through one, but they must all go through the same one.







It might be that the FM signal is weak there anyway. It would be



interesting to see how far away you have to move the radio for the



problem to go away. Does the radio have provision for an external



aerial connection? Does it make any difference if you pull out the



mains lead and run it off internal batteries (if it can)?





I dont have the batteries to try that at the moment.



The ballast case is not earthed directly but there is a earth terminal for

on the mains supply. Maybe that is not connected to the case. Earthing the

case is the easiest thing to try so I'll try that first.



Then trying the ferrite beads / clamps. From doing a quick internet

search, this has solved the problem often, including in cars with HID

lamps.

When you say the wires to the tubes must go though the same ferrite, do

you mean all 4 wires, or the pairs of wires to each end of the tube ?



I am aware that switched mode power supplies have a ferrite lump on the

cable to suppress RFI. Apparently you can get "residential grade" RFI

suppressed high freq ballasts (at least in the US), and I guess maybe

these just have ferrites on the cables.



Cheers,

Simon.





I am surprised that this is able to occur at all with commercially produced

ballasts on sale in the UK. Any equipment such as this must have CE

approval, and have EMC certification. Part of that certification requires

that the equipment does not cause interference to the operation of other

equipment. At 1.5 m distance, I would not have expected there to have been a

problem, unless there is any error with the way that you have them installed

with respect to any detailed installation instructions that came with them.

I'm thinking earthing of cases and metalwork, as suggested by Andrew, or

length and type of cable between the ballasts and flourescent fixtures.



Arfa

There are no detailed instructions apart from the information printed on the ballast. That says that the leads to a particular end of the tube should be kept short. There is an earth terminal at the mains connector and you might expect this to be connected to the case it that needed to be earthed, but maybe it isn't so I will try earthing the cable separately.
The wiring to the other end is 1mm TWE with the earth conductor tucked well out of the way, and is in a fairly straight run.
Perhaps a screened cable to the end of the tube would help, and in a domestic luminaire these wires are usually inside the metal case along with the ballast.
But a ferrite might deal with that also.
Simon.

On Friday, January 18, 2013 11:41:26 AM UTC, Man at B&Q wrote:
On Jan 18, 2:15*am, "Arfa Daily" wrote:

"sm_jamieson" wrote in message



...



















On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:14:14 AM UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,



sm_jamieson writes:



I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of

kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming

potentiometer yet.



But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now due to

rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to the

ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres.



Now fluoros can cause interference but I don't remember them causing

this much.



The ballasts are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE

running to the other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal

clips, so no earth plane running alongside.



Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the ballast or the tubes and

whether it is being picked up by the main cable of the radio, although

moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary the interference..



What is the best way to deal with this ?



Simon.



Make sure ballast case is earthed.



Try threading a ferrite core on the mains supply to the ballast,



positioned near the ballast. You could also thread the wires to



the tubes through one, but they must all go through the same one.



It might be that the FM signal is weak there anyway. It would be



interesting to see how far away you have to move the radio for the



problem to go away. Does the radio have provision for an external



aerial connection? Does it make any difference if you pull out the



mains lead and run it off internal batteries (if it can)?



I dont have the batteries to try that at the moment.



The ballast case is not earthed directly but there is a earth terminal for

on the mains supply. Maybe that is not connected to the case. Earthing the

case is the easiest thing to try so I'll try that first.



Then trying the ferrite beads / clamps. From doing a quick internet

search, this has solved the problem often, including in cars with HID

lamps.

When you say the wires to the tubes must go though the same ferrite, do

you mean all 4 wires, or the pairs of wires to each end of the tube ?



I am aware that switched mode power supplies have a ferrite lump on the

cable to suppress RFI. Apparently you can get "residential grade" RFI

suppressed high freq ballasts (at least in the US), and I guess maybe

these just have ferrites on the cables.



Cheers,

Simon.



I am surprised that this is able to occur at all with commercially produced

ballasts on sale in the UK. Any equipment such as this must have CE

approval, and have EMC certification. Part of that certification requires

that the equipment does not cause interference to the operation of other

equipment.



It depends if the ballasts are sold as "components" in which case the

integrator of the light fitting is responsible for EMC considerations.


Totally agree. The way I have used it the wiring and ballast is exposed rather than being inside an earthed metal box.
Simon.

In article ,
sm_jamieson writes:
On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:14:14 AM UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,

sm_jamieson writes:

I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming potentiometer yet.
But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now due to rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to the ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres.
Now fluoros can cause interference but I don't remember them causing this much.
The ballasts are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE running to the other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal clips, so no earth plane running alongside.
Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the ballast or the tubes and whether it is being picked up by the main cable of the radio, although moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary the interference.
What is the best way to deal with this ?
Simon.


Make sure ballast case is earthed.
Try threading a ferrite core on the mains supply to the ballast,
positioned near the ballast. You could also thread the wires to
the tubes through one, but they must all go through the same one.

It might be that the FM signal is weak there anyway. It would be
interesting to see how far away you have to move the radio for the
problem to go away. Does the radio have provision for an external
aerial connection? Does it make any difference if you pull out the
mains lead and run it off internal batteries (if it can)?

I dont have the batteries to try that at the moment.

The ballast case is not earthed directly but there is a earth terminal for on the mains supply. Maybe that is not connected to the case. Earthing the case is the easiest thing to try so I'll try that first.

It's probably connected to the terminal, but no harm connecting
direct to the casing too.

Then trying the ferrite beads / clamps. From doing a quick internet search, this has solved the problem often, including in cars with HID lamps.
When you say the wires to the tubes must go though the same ferrite, do you mean all 4 wires, or the pairs of wires to each end of the tube ?

All 4 wires. The current won't be balanced through the core unless you
take all the wires through it. Again, you want it as near the ballast
as it will safely go. It effectively shortens the RFI transmitting
antenna to the length of cable between the ballast and the core.
If you get a big enough core, you can loop all the wires through
the hole more than once, which will improve its effect even more.

I am aware that switched mode power supplies have a ferrite lump on the cable to suppress RFI. Apparently you can get "residential grade" RFI suppressed high freq ballasts (at least in the US), and I guess maybe these just have ferrites on the cables.

Their RFI emissions regs may be different than in the EU, perhaps
not requiring inbuilt supression in commercial environments. We
do have some exceptions in the EU, e.g. equipment to go into
telephone exchanges - it's up to the exchange owner.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Friday, January 18, 2013 11:56:41 AM UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,

sm_jamieson writes:

On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:14:14 AM UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,



sm_jamieson writes:



I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming potentiometer yet.

But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now due to rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to the ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres.

Now fluoros can cause interference but I don't remember them causing this much.

The ballasts are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE running to the other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal clips, so no earth plane running alongside.

Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the ballast or the tubes and whether it is being picked up by the main cable of the radio, although moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary the interference.

What is the best way to deal with this ?

Simon.





Make sure ballast case is earthed.

Try threading a ferrite core on the mains supply to the ballast,

positioned near the ballast. You could also thread the wires to

the tubes through one, but they must all go through the same one.



It might be that the FM signal is weak there anyway. It would be

interesting to see how far away you have to move the radio for the

problem to go away. Does the radio have provision for an external

aerial connection? Does it make any difference if you pull out the

mains lead and run it off internal batteries (if it can)?



I dont have the batteries to try that at the moment.



The ballast case is not earthed directly but there is a earth terminal for on the mains supply. Maybe that is not connected to the case. Earthing the case is the easiest thing to try so I'll try that first.



It's probably connected to the terminal, but no harm connecting

direct to the casing too.



Then trying the ferrite beads / clamps. From doing a quick internet search, this has solved the problem often, including in cars with HID lamps.

When you say the wires to the tubes must go though the same ferrite, do you mean all 4 wires, or the pairs of wires to each end of the tube ?



All 4 wires. The current won't be balanced through the core unless you

take all the wires through it. Again, you want it as near the ballast

as it will safely go. It effectively shortens the RFI transmitting

antenna to the length of cable between the ballast and the core.

If you get a big enough core, you can loop all the wires through

the hole more than once, which will improve its effect even more.



The ballasts are dual, and there are 7 connections:
(ballast A pair to far end)(ballast A)(common ballast A+B)(ballastB)(ballast B pair to far end)
The way I have wired it has the common to ballast A connector, then a single wire from ballast A connector to ballast B connector (since the connectors have dual push-in connectors at each terminal).
All the dual runs are TWE with the earth stripped out.

So I'd need a core of internal diamter about an inch to get round the whole lot.
Where would I get a core that size ?
Also, how tighly fitting does the core have to be ?
If I ran the cable thought a core of internal diameter 1 metre it obviously would not work.

I suppose a core around each "half" with the common wire inside both cores would be possible.

If I wanted to wind through a ferrite core more than once I'd have to strip the wires out of the TWE outer sheath, which would be a pain but could be done.

Would putting the ballast and cables inside a metal box like a standard fluorescent luminare do the same job as the cores, or might you need a metal box and the cores ?

Sorry about all these questions, I know little about the EMC side of things !
Simon.

On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:29:15 PM UTC, sm_jamieson wrote:
On Friday, January 18, 2013 11:56:41 AM UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,



sm_jamieson writes:



On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:14:14 AM UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:



In article ,







sm_jamieson writes:







I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming potentiometer yet.



But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now due to rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to the ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres.



Now fluoros can cause interference but I don't remember them causing this much.



The ballasts are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE running to the other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal clips, so no earth plane running alongside.



Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the ballast or the tubes and whether it is being picked up by the main cable of the radio, although moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary the interference.



What is the best way to deal with this ?



Simon.











Make sure ballast case is earthed.



Try threading a ferrite core on the mains supply to the ballast,



positioned near the ballast. You could also thread the wires to



the tubes through one, but they must all go through the same one.







It might be that the FM signal is weak there anyway. It would be



interesting to see how far away you have to move the radio for the



problem to go away. Does the radio have provision for an external



aerial connection? Does it make any difference if you pull out the



mains lead and run it off internal batteries (if it can)?







I dont have the batteries to try that at the moment.







The ballast case is not earthed directly but there is a earth terminal for on the mains supply. Maybe that is not connected to the case. Earthing the case is the easiest thing to try so I'll try that first.







It's probably connected to the terminal, but no harm connecting



direct to the casing too.







Then trying the ferrite beads / clamps. From doing a quick internet search, this has solved the problem often, including in cars with HID lamps.



When you say the wires to the tubes must go though the same ferrite, do you mean all 4 wires, or the pairs of wires to each end of the tube ?







All 4 wires. The current won't be balanced through the core unless you



take all the wires through it. Again, you want it as near the ballast



as it will safely go. It effectively shortens the RFI transmitting



antenna to the length of cable between the ballast and the core.



If you get a big enough core, you can loop all the wires through



the hole more than once, which will improve its effect even more.







The ballasts are dual, and there are 7 connections:

(ballast A pair to far end)(ballast A)(common ballast A+B)(ballastB)(ballast B pair to far end)

The way I have wired it has the common to ballast A connector, then a single wire from ballast A connector to ballast B connector (since the connectors have dual push-in connectors at each terminal).

All the dual runs are TWE with the earth stripped out.



So I'd need a core of internal diamter about an inch to get round the whole lot.

Where would I get a core that size ?

Also, how tighly fitting does the core have to be ?

If I ran the cable thought a core of internal diameter 1 metre it obviously would not work.



I suppose a core around each "half" with the common wire inside both cores would be possible.



If I wanted to wind through a ferrite core more than once I'd have to strip the wires out of the TWE outer sheath, which would be a pain but could be done.



Would putting the ballast and cables inside a metal box like a standard fluorescent luminare do the same job as the cores, or might you need a metal box and the cores ?



Sorry about all these questions, I know little about the EMC side of things !

Simon.

Just noticed this in the PDF data sheet.

Cable capacity Max. 200 pF between lamp wires,
max. 200 pF between lamp wires and earth
EMI precautions have to be taken

Also, the "common" terminal between the two tubes does not have to be connected at all.

Simon.

In article ,
sm_jamieson writes:
On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:29:15 PM UTC, sm_jamieson wrote:

The ballasts are dual, and there are 7 connections:
(ballast A pair to far end)(ballast A)(common ballast A+B)(ballastB)(ballast B pair to far end)
The way I have wired it has the common to ballast A connector, then a single wire from ballast A connector to ballast B connector (since the connectors have dual push-in connectors at each terminal).
All the dual runs are TWE with the earth stripped out.

So I'd need a core of internal diamter about an inch to get round the whole lot.
Where would I get a core that size ?

http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/search/br...erri te+cores

Also, how tighly fitting does the core have to be ?

Doesn't have to be tight at all.

If I ran the cable thought a core of internal diameter 1 metre it obviously would not work.

It would work, providing the radio aerial didn't magnetically couple
to the core too.

I suppose a core around each "half" with the common wire inside both cores would be possible.

If I wanted to wind through a ferrite core more than once I'd have to strip the wires out of the TWE outer sheath, which would be a pain but could be done.

Would putting the ballast and cables inside a metal box like a standard fluorescent luminare do the same job as the cores, or might you need a metal box and the cores ?

It can help, although most fluoresent lamp casings are not well enough
connected around the cover edges to be very good EMI shields.

Sorry about all these questions, I know little about the EMC side of things !

Simon.

Just noticed this in the PDF data sheet.

Cable capacity Max. 200 pF between lamp wires,
max. 200 pF between lamp wires and earth
EMI precautions have to be taken

Also, the "common" terminal between the two tubes does not have to be connected at all.

Often it's just an isolated terminal to connect the two leads together.

Simon.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
I've known these electronic ballasts to do all kind of mayhem, including
completely confuse a vcr on the other side of the wall in the sitting
room, and make DAB sound like boiling mud.

No change there then ... :-)

Arfa

On Friday, January 18, 2013 11:56:41 AM UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,

sm_jamieson writes:

On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:14:14 AM UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article ,



sm_jamieson writes:



I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming potentiometer yet.

But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now due to rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to the ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres.

Now fluoros can cause interference but I don't remember them causing this much.

The ballasts are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE running to the other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal clips, so no earth plane running alongside.

Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the ballast or the tubes and whether it is being picked up by the main cable of the radio, although moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary the interference.

What is the best way to deal with this ?

Simon.





Make sure ballast case is earthed.

Try threading a ferrite core on the mains supply to the ballast,

positioned near the ballast. You could also thread the wires to

the tubes through one, but they must all go through the same one.



It might be that the FM signal is weak there anyway. It would be

interesting to see how far away you have to move the radio for the

problem to go away. Does the radio have provision for an external

aerial connection? Does it make any difference if you pull out the

mains lead and run it off internal batteries (if it can)?



I dont have the batteries to try that at the moment.



The ballast case is not earthed directly but there is a earth terminal for on the mains supply. Maybe that is not connected to the case. Earthing the case is the easiest thing to try so I'll try that first.



It's probably connected to the terminal, but no harm connecting

direct to the casing too.



Then trying the ferrite beads / clamps. From doing a quick internet search, this has solved the problem often, including in cars with HID lamps.

When you say the wires to the tubes must go though the same ferrite, do you mean all 4 wires, or the pairs of wires to each end of the tube ?



All 4 wires. The current won't be balanced through the core unless you

take all the wires through it.

If you have the time, could you explain a bit more about balanced current ?
What happens if the current isn't balanced ?
And is this just for for cables to the tubes or for the mains supply as well ?

You see single wires wound round ferrite rings, but maybe this is just for single-conductor antennas.

And if you wanted to pass a mains supply (live and neutral) though a ferrite several times, would you wrap each conductor several times round opposite sides of the core, or wrap them as a pair ?

Simon.

In article ,
sm_jamieson wrote:
I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of
kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming potentiometer
yet. But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now
due to rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to
the ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres. Now fluoros can cause
interference but I don't remember them causing this much. The ballasts
are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE running to the
other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal clips, so no earth
plane running alongside. Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the
ballast or the tubes and whether it is being picked up by the main cable
of the radio, although moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary
the interference. What is the best way to deal with this ? Simon.

I'm wondering if you have a faulty unit? I've just tried a FM portable
close to my dimming Osram units - not a hint of interference, even with
the receiver between stations.

--
*I tried to catch some fog, but I mist.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
sm_jamieson wrote:
I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of
kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming potentiometer
yet. But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now
due to rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to
the ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres. Now fluoros can cause
interference but I don't remember them causing this much. The ballasts
are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE running to the
other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal clips, so no earth
plane running alongside. Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the
ballast or the tubes and whether it is being picked up by the main cable
of the radio, although moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary
the interference. What is the best way to deal with this ? Simon.

I'm wondering if you have a faulty unit? I've just tried a FM portable
close to my dimming Osram units - not a hint of interference, even with
the receiver between stations.

That's probably because it's a quality unit from a reputable manufacturer,
and the EMC testing and approving has been done properly.

Arfa


--
*I tried to catch some fog, but I mist.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
I'm wondering if you have a faulty unit? I've just tried a FM portable
close to my dimming Osram units - not a hint of interference, even with
the receiver between stations.

That's probably because it's a quality unit from a reputable
manufacturer, and the EMC testing and approving has been done properly.

Are you saying Philips isn't?

--
*The average person falls asleep in seven minutes *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

En el artículo , Brian Gaff
escribió:

I was told once that after approval the shipment missed out all the
suppression components to save money.

Approval? Wossat then?

Stuff from China is marked with the CE mark, but according to the
Chinese it's not the European CE mark, but stands for "China Export".
odd how similar it looks to the Euro CE mark though...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking#China_Export

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
I'm wondering if you have a faulty unit? I've just tried a FM portable
close to my dimming Osram units - not a hint of interference, even with
the receiver between stations.

That's probably because it's a quality unit from a reputable
manufacturer, and the EMC testing and approving has been done properly.

Are you saying Philips isn't?

Well no, not really, but who knows ? There is so much badging of Far east
stuff done now, that it could be not actually of Philips manufacture at all.
However, that said, I would still have expected them to take their
obligations for EMC testing and CE approval seriously, as they are a very
'European' company, and these things are required - in theory at least - to
sell in the European market.

Arfa



--
*The average person falls asleep in seven minutes *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:00:58 +0000, Ian Jackson
wrote:

I am surprised that this is able to occur at all with commercially
produced ballasts on sale in the UK. Any equipment such as this must
have CE approval, and have EMC certification. Part of that
certification requires that the equipment does not cause interference
to the operation of other equipment.

You're having a laff, surely?

snort
Homeplugs!
Beg pardon.

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:00:58 +0000, Ian Jackson
wrote:

I am surprised that this is able to occur at all with commercially
produced ballasts on sale in the UK. Any equipment such as this must
have CE approval, and have EMC certification. Part of that
certification requires that the equipment does not cause interference
to the operation of other equipment.

You're having a laff, surely?

snort
Homeplugs!
Beg pardon.


The thing is that CE labeling is compulsory on items offered for sale in the
EU, and in order to justify a claim of compliance, electrical items must
meet fairly rigid specifications in regards to the electrical pollution that
they produce, and their susceptibility to to EM radiation from other
products. Granted, a manufacturer can self-certify, which then doesn't
guarantee that appropriate EMC testing has been either undertaken or passed
within the specs, but if you go down this route, you better be pretty sure
that you are not going to get caught out on it, as the penalties can include
hefty fines and even imprisonment. I would be surprised if any major
manufacturers would risk this, if for no other reason than the adverse
publicity it would generate ...

see

http://www.conformance.co.uk/adirect...oku.php?id=emc

Arfa

In article , Arfa Daily
writes


Granted, a manufacturer can self-certify, which then doesn't
guarantee that appropriate EMC testing has been either undertaken or passed
within the specs, but if you go down this route, you better be pretty sure
that you are not going to get caught out on it, as the penalties can include
hefty fines and even imprisonment. I would be surprised if any major
manufacturers would risk this, if for no other reason than the adverse
publicity it would generate ...

Adverse publicity like this:

http://luxmagazine.co.uk/news/23/phi...gu10-led-lamps


Despite the potential threat to life I don't think it even made it to
the mainstream press, nobody cared.

As to jail for a bit of RFI, it just wouldn't happen.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

"fred" wrote in message ...
In article , Arfa Daily
writes


Granted, a manufacturer can self-certify, which then doesn't
guarantee that appropriate EMC testing has been either undertaken or
passed
within the specs, but if you go down this route, you better be pretty sure
that you are not going to get caught out on it, as the penalties can
include
hefty fines and even imprisonment. I would be surprised if any major
manufacturers would risk this, if for no other reason than the adverse
publicity it would generate ...

Adverse publicity like this:

http://luxmagazine.co.uk/news/23/phi...gu10-led-lamps


Despite the potential threat to life I don't think it even made it to the
mainstream press, nobody cared.

As to jail for a bit of RFI, it just wouldn't happen.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .


Well, you might have thought the same for selling bananas by the pound ...

Arfa

On Friday, January 18, 2013 5:09:23 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

sm_jamieson wrote:

I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of

kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming potentiometer

yet. But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now

due to rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to

the ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres. Now fluoros can cause

interference but I don't remember them causing this much. The ballasts

are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE running to the

other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal clips, so no earth

plane running alongside. Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the

ballast or the tubes and whether it is being picked up by the main cable

of the radio, although moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary

the interference. What is the best way to deal with this ? Simon.



I'm wondering if you have a faulty unit? I've just tried a FM portable

close to my dimming Osram units - not a hint of interference, even with

the receiver between stations.


I could try disconnecting one ballast since I have two connected up.
It is unlikely they would both be faulty.
How have you wired yours up ?
Simon.

On Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:43:06 PM UTC, sm_jamieson wrote:
On Friday, January 18, 2013 5:09:23 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,



sm_jamieson wrote:



I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of



kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming potentiometer



yet. But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now



due to rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to



the ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres. Now fluoros can cause



interference but I don't remember them causing this much. The ballasts



are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE running to the



other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal clips, so no earth



plane running alongside. Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the



ballast or the tubes and whether it is being picked up by the main cable



of the radio, although moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary



the interference. What is the best way to deal with this ? Simon.







I'm wondering if you have a faulty unit? I've just tried a FM portable



close to my dimming Osram units - not a hint of interference, even with



the receiver between stations.





I could try disconnecting one ballast since I have two connected up.

It is unlikely they would both be faulty.

How have you wired yours up ?

Simon.

Well by moving the radio around, both ballasts are doing the same thing, and if I move the wire from ballast to far end of tube, towards the radio, this increases the interference, but the greatest interference is with the radio right against the ballast.

The ballast is Philips and says "Made in Poland" on the case.

Something I don't yet understand. How does a ferrite core stop the radiating of high frequency signals from a wire without attenuating the signal in the wire ?

Simon.

On 19/01/13 21:52, sm_jamieson wrote:
On Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:43:06 PM UTC, sm_jamieson wrote:
On Friday, January 18, 2013 5:09:23 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,



sm_jamieson wrote:



I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of



kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming potentiometer



yet. But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now



due to rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to



the ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres. Now fluoros can cause



interference but I don't remember them causing this much. The ballasts



are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE running to the



other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal clips, so no earth



plane running alongside. Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the



ballast or the tubes and whether it is being picked up by the main cable



of the radio, although moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary



the interference. What is the best way to deal with this ? Simon.







I'm wondering if you have a faulty unit? I've just tried a FM portable



close to my dimming Osram units - not a hint of interference, even with



the receiver between stations.





I could try disconnecting one ballast since I have two connected up.

It is unlikely they would both be faulty.

How have you wired yours up ?

Simon.

Well by moving the radio around, both ballasts are doing the same thing, and if I move the wire from ballast to far end of tube, towards the radio, this increases the interference, but the greatest interference is with the radio right against the ballast.

The ballast is Philips and says "Made in Poland" on the case.

Something I don't yet understand. How does a ferrite core stop the radiating of high frequency signals from a wire without attenuating the signal in the wire ?

Simon.

common mode rejeaction

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Saturday, January 19, 2013 9:53:37 PM UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/01/13 21:52, sm_jamieson wrote:

On Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:43:06 PM UTC, sm_jamieson wrote:

On Friday, January 18, 2013 5:09:23 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:



In article ,







sm_jamieson wrote:







I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of







kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming potentiometer







yet. But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now







due to rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to







the ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres. Now fluoros can cause







interference but I don't remember them causing this much. The ballasts







are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE running to the







other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal clips, so no earth







plane running alongside. Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the







ballast or the tubes and whether it is being picked up by the main cable







of the radio, although moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary







the interference. What is the best way to deal with this ? Simon.















I'm wondering if you have a faulty unit? I've just tried a FM portable







close to my dimming Osram units - not a hint of interference, even with







the receiver between stations.











I could try disconnecting one ballast since I have two connected up.



It is unlikely they would both be faulty.



How have you wired yours up ?



Simon.



Well by moving the radio around, both ballasts are doing the same thing, and if I move the wire from ballast to far end of tube, towards the radio, this increases the interference, but the greatest interference is with the radio right against the ballast.



The ballast is Philips and says "Made in Poland" on the case.



Something I don't yet understand. How does a ferrite core stop the radiating of high frequency signals from a wire without attenuating the signal in the wire ?



Simon.



common mode rejeaction

I will google that and learn something.
Simon.

On Friday, January 18, 2013 5:09:23 PM UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

sm_jamieson wrote:

I've wired two dual dimmable ballasts (philips) on top of two runs of

kitchen cabinets (4 x 36W tubes). Not wired up the dimming potentiometer

yet. But I cannot now use the mains FM radio by the kitchen sink now

due to rather a lot of RF interference. The distance from the radio to

the ballast and tubes is around 1.5 metres. Now fluoros can cause

interference but I don't remember them causing this much. The ballasts

are wired up with short wires where required, and TWE running to the

other end of the tubes. The tubes are held in metal clips, so no earth

plane running alongside. Its not obvious if the RFI is coming from the

ballast or the tubes and whether it is being picked up by the main cable

of the radio, although moving the radio mains cable around seems to vary

the interference. What is the best way to deal with this ? Simon.



I'm wondering if you have a faulty unit? I've just tried a FM portable

close to my dimming Osram units - not a hint of interference, even with

the receiver between stations.



I've sent an email to BLT Direct stating the problem and saying that osram units seem to have no such problem. I'll see what they say.

I wonder if the osram and philips work on different frequencies and yours are radiating but not to affect FM.

Any chance you could post a picture of your set-up to see if there is any obvious difference.

I tried earthing the case of the ballast and it made no difference.

Simon.

En el artículo ,
sm_jamieson escribió:


I will google that and learn something.
Simon.

While you're at it, could you learn to snip your quotes? You just
quoted over 100 lines to add two.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

sm_jamieson wrote:
On Saturday, January 19, 2013 9:53:37 PM UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/01/13 21:52, sm_jamieson wrote:
Something I don't yet understand. How does a ferrite core stop the radiating of high frequency signals from a wire without attenuating the signal in the wire ?
Simon.
common mode rejeaction

I will google that and learn something.

While you're doing that, please find out how to stop your news reading
program inserting many empty lines between each used line, and also try
snipping superfluous lines. Others may then be able to read your one
line contribution without having to scroll through many pages of rubbish.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Sat, 19 Jan 2013 15:02:05 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

Homeplugs!
Beg pardon.


The thing is that CE labeling is compulsory on items offered for sale in the
EU, and in order to justify a claim of compliance, electrical items must
meet fairly rigid specifications in regards to the electrical pollution that
they produce, and their susceptibility to to EM radiation from other
products. Granted, a manufacturer can self-certify, which then doesn't
guarantee that appropriate EMC testing has been either undertaken or passed
within the specs, but if you go down this route, you better be pretty sure
that you are not going to get caught out on it, as the penalties can include
hefty fines and even imprisonment. I would be surprised if any major
manufacturers would risk this, if for no other reason than the adverse
publicity it would generate ...

The mere existence of Homeplugs and their like simply proves the
'compliance' and 'enforcement' are nothing but figments of the
imagination, as are the fines.

In article ,
sm_jamieson wrote:
I'm wondering if you have a faulty unit? I've just tried a FM portable

close to my dimming Osram units - not a hint of interference, even with

the receiver between stations.



I've sent an email to BLT Direct stating the problem and saying that
osram units seem to have no such problem. I'll see what they say.

I wonder if the osram and philips work on different frequencies and
yours are radiating but not to affect FM.

Any chance you could post a picture of your set-up to see if there is
any obvious difference.

I tried earthing the case of the ballast and it made no difference.

The ballasts are simply mounted on the underside of the wall cupboards,
wired in 1mm TW&E. The leads to the clip mounted tubes are simply extruded
twin flex with moulded on plugs. Nothing fancy at all.

--
*In "Casablanca", Humphrey Bogart never said "Play it again, Sam" *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:15:47 AM UTC, John Williamson wrote:


Tciao for Now!



John.

No problem ;-)
My newreader seems very good indenting the quotes so that I don't notice how much I am quoting.
Simon.