I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

So 3X2 studwork spaced a few inches away from walls, pboard, maybe
some insulation - building regs required?

Cheers
Jim K

On Friday, January 11, 2013 11:20:15 AM UTC, Jim K wrote:
I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

So 3X2 studwork spaced a few inches away from walls, pboard, maybe
some insulation - building regs required?

Almost certainly. OTOH, how soon are you planning to sell the house?

On 11 Jan, 14:24, Martin Bonner wrote:
On Friday, January 11, 2013 11:20:15 AM UTC, Jim K wrote:
I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

So 3X2 studwork spaced a few inches away from walls, pboard, maybe
some insulation - building regs required?

Almost certainly.

which aspects? thermal renovation of an element? what do they ask for
in such situations?

OTOH, how soon are you planning to sell the house?

12-18months (shhh)

Jim K

On 11/01/13 11:20, Jim K wrote:
I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

So 3X2 studwork spaced a few inches away from walls, pboard, maybe
some insulation - building regs required?


yes. In theory

its material alteration.

Cheers
Jim K



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 11 Jan, 15:11, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 11/01/13 11:20, Jim K wrote:

I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

So 3X2 studwork spaced a few inches away from walls, pboard, maybe
some insulation - building regs required?

yes. In theory

its material alteration.

is it?

"(2) An alteration is material for the purposes of these Regulations
if the work, or any part of it, would at any stage result—

(a) in a building or controlled service or fitting not complying with
a relevant requirement where previously it did; or

(b) in a building or controlled service or fitting which before the
work commenced did not comply with a relevant requirement, being more
unsatisfactory in relation to such a requirement."

so what could be worse?

I'm not planning any changes xcept lining out, elecs (by cert.
sparky), radiator (by heating bod), no subdivision er....??

Only thing I can imagine is fire? - just because wood burns - after
the plasterboard has eventually gone (by which time one would hope
people would be out anyway) ?

Ping Hugo Nebula!

Jim K

On Friday 11 January 2013 11:20 Jim K wrote in uk.d-i-y:

I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

So 3X2 studwork spaced a few inches away from walls, pboard, maybe
some insulation - building regs required?

Cheers
Jim K

It might be wise, from the POV of damp related problems that might happen as
a result.

You are going to take a wall underground with (presumably) and unknown damp
proof layer and and reduce or possibly block all water vapour escape from
the walls (depending on whether you use celotex or *wool).

That could cause problems. I think in this case, I'd consider the 100 quid
or so well spent just for some reasonable advice from the building
inspector.

OTOH if you can tape polythene over all the walls (one at a time at least,
seal all edges to the wall) and determine if any water vapour is getting
through, that might make thinks a little more certain.

No water vapour = just do it. But, me, I'd want to test *all* the walls
first.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

If you are reading this from a web interface eg DIY Banter,
DIY Forum or Google Groups, please be aware this is NOT a forum, and
you are merely using a web portal to a USENET group. Many people block
posters coming from web portals due to perceived SPAM or inaneness.
For a better method of access, please see:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

"She got her looks from her father. He's a plastic surgeon."

On Jan 11, 11:20*am, Jim K wrote:
I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

So 3X2 studwork spaced a few inches away from walls, pboard, maybe
some insulation - building regs required?

Cheers
Jim K

It might look dry but probably isn't.
The first thing to do is get a damp meter on the wall.
If you cover it all up there may be a problem arises.
You may have to put ventilators top and bottom of your lining to
evaporate any moisture off.

There are anti-damp compounds you can apply. I haven't seen a totally
successful one. Maybe there are better ones out now.

Tell no-one, there are too many interfering busybodies around.

If no-one can confirm the water table remains below the cellar floor all year round, with a guarantee, you need to go the tanking route.

For some repeated black bitumen coats are enough, otherwise it is the raised stud sheet fixed by O-ring plugs and sump pump as necessary. To do otherwise could be a recipe for a disaster, rot begins at 20%, plasterboard goes to mush etc.

On the other hand, if it is just for storage - why dry-line?

On 11 Jan, 21:48, wrote:
If no-one can confirm the water table remains below the cellar floor all year round, with a guarantee, you need to go the tanking route.

For some repeated black bitumen coats are enough, otherwise it is the raised stud sheet fixed by O-ring plugs and sump pump as necessary.

aka tanking

To do otherwise could be a recipe for a disaster, rot begins at 20%, plasterboard goes to mush etc.

?? 20% what?

Jim K

On Friday, January 11, 2013 10:08:05 PM UTC, Jim K wrote:
?? 20% what?

Sorry, rot begins at circa 20% moisture level.

On 11 Jan, 22:22, wrote:
On Friday, January 11, 2013 10:08:05 PM UTC, Jim K wrote:
?? 20% what?

Sorry, rot begins at circa 20% moisture level.

eh? what units?

Jim K

On Friday, January 11, 2013 10:51:31 PM UTC, Jim K wrote:
eh? what units?

Dry rot will begin at circa 20% timber moisture level (your 3x2), wet rot requires nearer 30%. Yes your wood may be treated, but the blunt reality is your dry walls may not remain dry once you create a sealed dry lined room within them.

On Jan 11, 11:20*am, Jim K wrote:
I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

So 3X2 studwork spaced a few inches away from walls, pboard, maybe
some insulation - building regs required?

Cheers
Jim K

There is no point in insulating your cellar. It is "earth shielded"
and massively insulated already.

The reason it is cold down there is water evaporating from the walls.
It was built to do exactly this for the storage of food & beverages
before refrigerators were invented for the masses.
The reason the paint is flaking is the damp coming through from the
outside (as designed.)

If you prevent the evaporation from happening, you may change ground
conditions outside the cellar wall and get actual water running in.
Depending on what was done regarding drainage outside the wall when it
was built.

There are high tech solutions to apply vertical damp courses to the
inside of the cellar wall but battens and insulation and plasterboard
isn't one of them.

On 12 Jan, 07:58, harry wrote:
On Jan 11, 11:20*am, Jim K wrote:

I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

So 3X2 studwork spaced a few inches away from walls, pboard, maybe
some insulation - building regs required?

Cheers
Jim K

There is no point in insulating your cellar. It is "earth shielded"
and massively insulated already.

No. it's called a "massive heat sink" NOT "insulated".

The reason it is cold down there is water evaporating from the walls.

Of course the lack of heating and the vents to the outside will also
help to keep the temp well down?

It was built to do exactly *this for the storage of food & beverages
before refrigerators were invented for the masses.

surprised the masses in a 1up 1down back to back needed that much
storage being a) poor, b) "hand to mouth" existence and all that?

This cellar was built as the building is on a slope.The cellar forms
part of what I call "the foundations".
The other back to back adjacent to it has a lower ground floor instead
of a "cellar" - wonder what the masses did if they lived there? die of
listeria?

The reason the paint is flaking is the damp coming through from the
outside (as designed.)

whitewash copes well to a point

If you prevent the evaporation from happening, you may change ground
conditions outside the cellar wall and get actual water running in.
Depending on what was done regarding drainage outside the wall when it
was built.

No I don;t believe ground conditions could be changed that much by
lining a cellar.
Visible damp and mould may appear but only due to low/no evaporation
through crap ventilation.
"Running water" appearing is somewhat hysterical.

There are high tech solutions to apply vertical damp courses to the
inside of the cellar wall but battens and insulation and plasterboard
isn't one of them.

the high tech one is called tanking Harry.

Jim K

On 11/01/2013 11:20, Jim K wrote:
I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

So 3X2 studwork spaced a few inches away from walls, pboard, maybe
some insulation - building regs required?

Cheers
Jim K

If you are not changing anything structurally .. then I would say
Building Regs do not apply.
Just do it.

What could apply is Planning ... if there is a material change of use of
a room from one type to another.

No-Habitable to habitable, commercial to residential, conservatory to
permanent living space etc.

On 12/01/13 16:20, Rick Hughes wrote:
On 11/01/2013 11:20, Jim K wrote:
I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

So 3X2 studwork spaced a few inches away from walls, pboard, maybe
some insulation - building regs required?

Cheers
Jim K

If you are not changing anything structurally .. then I would say
Building Regs do not apply.

You might say that, but you would be wrong.


Just do it.

What could apply is Planning ... if there is a material change of use of
a room from one type to another.


No, planning only applies to change of use and appearance.


No-Habitable to habitable, commercial to residential, conservatory to
permanent living space etc.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

[Default] On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 03:20:15 -0800 (PST), a certain
chimpanzee, Jim K , randomly hit the keyboard and
wrote:

I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

Depends.

Is the cellar heated? If so;
-will there be any change to the accommodation (i.e., are you changing
it from not habitable to habitable), or
-if it's already habitable, then will you be making it worse than
before?

The answers a if unheated, then no. If heated, then strictly
speaking, yes, as a renovation of a thermal element.

If you're creating habitable rooms down there, then you should really
think about proper tanking. Even if not, most cellars to pre-war
properties in my experience were nothing more than the sub-floor void,
and ventilated to prevent mould growth, often with an open gully in
the floor to drain away all the rain and ground water that would come
in. That it was a good space to have a scullery or a cold store was
probably co-incidental.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?

On Jan 12, 4:11*pm, Jim K wrote:
On 12 Jan, 07:58, harry wrote:

On Jan 11, 11:20*am, Jim K wrote:

I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

So 3X2 studwork spaced a few inches away from walls, pboard, maybe
some insulation - building regs required?

Cheers
Jim K

There is no point in insulating your cellar. It is "earth shielded"
and massively insulated already.

No. it's called a "massive heat sink" NOT "insulated".

The reason it is cold down there is water evaporating from the walls.

Of course the lack of heating and the vents to the outside will also
help to keep the temp well down?

It was built to do exactly *this for the storage of food & beverages
before refrigerators were invented for the masses.

surprised the masses in a 1up 1down back to back needed that much
storage being a) poor, b) "hand to mouth" existence and all that?

This cellar was built as the building is on a slope.The cellar forms
part of what I call "the foundations".
The other back to back adjacent to it has a lower ground floor instead
of a "cellar" - wonder what the masses did if they lived there? die of
listeria?

The reason the paint is flaking is the damp coming through from the
outside (as designed.)

whitewash copes well to a point

If you prevent the evaporation from happening, you may change ground
conditions outside the cellar wall and get actual water running in.
Depending on what was done regarding drainage outside the wall when it
was built.

No I don;t believe ground conditions could be changed that much by
lining a cellar.
Visible damp and mould may appear but only due to low/no evaporation
through crap ventilation.
"Running water" appearing is somewhat hysterical.

There are high tech solutions to apply vertical damp courses to the
inside of the cellar wall but battens and insulation and plasterboard
isn't one of them.

the high tech one is called tanking Harry.

Jim K

If you stop the water from evaporating, it will build up in the
ground. This may or may not be a problem, no one predict/ say for
sure.

There are ways of dealing with the problem other than tanking which
can fail.

On 12/01/2013 07:58, harry wrote:
On Jan 11, 11:20 am, Jim K wrote:
I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

So 3X2 studwork spaced a few inches away from walls, pboard, maybe
some insulation - building regs required?

snip

There are high tech solutions to apply vertical damp courses to the
inside of the cellar wall but battens and insulation and plasterboard
isn't one of them.


I was round a mate's c.1900 house the other week. He's celotexed the
cellar ceiling and lagged the walls with what looks like bubble wrap,
with the flat bit facing out. You can see the moisture through this
material, and it kind of wicks/falls down this material to the floor. He
left this for a year or two to see what happened.

In the event, minor damp round the edges of the cellar - so he just
painted the flagstones, doing without any sump etc. Looks very tidy.
Slightly damp - you wouldn't want to store books down there. But fine
for a (draughty) workshop.

I suppose my concern is bricks remaining in that saturated state - but I
can't think it's much worse than before.

Rob

On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 08:11:24 -0800 (PST), Jim K
wrote:

On 12 Jan, 07:58, harry wrote:
On Jan 11, 11:20*am, Jim K wrote:

I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

So 3X2 studwork spaced a few inches away from walls, pboard, maybe
some insulation - building regs required?

Cheers
Jim K

There is no point in insulating your cellar. It is "earth shielded"
and massively insulated already.

No. it's called a "massive heat sink" NOT "insulated".

The reason it is cold down there is water evaporating from the walls.

Of course the lack of heating and the vents to the outside will also
help to keep the temp well down?

It was built to do exactly *this for the storage of food & beverages
before refrigerators were invented for the masses.

surprised the masses in a 1up 1down back to back needed that much
storage being a) poor, b) "hand to mouth" existence and all that?

This cellar was built as the building is on a slope.The cellar forms
part of what I call "the foundations".
The other back to back adjacent to it has a lower ground floor instead
of a "cellar" - wonder what the masses did if they lived there? die of
listeria?

The reason the paint is flaking is the damp coming through from the
outside (as designed.)

whitewash copes well to a point

If you prevent the evaporation from happening, you may change ground
conditions outside the cellar wall and get actual water running in.
Depending on what was done regarding drainage outside the wall when it
was built.

No I don;t believe ground conditions could be changed that much by
lining a cellar.
Visible damp and mould may appear but only due to low/no evaporation
through crap ventilation.
"Running water" appearing is somewhat hysterical.

There are high tech solutions to apply vertical damp courses to the
inside of the cellar wall but battens and insulation and plasterboard
isn't one of them.

the high tech one is called tanking Harry.

Interesting pair of articles currently featured on the front page of
the Independent on Sunday and linked to he
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-8449392.html

and he
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...d-8449391.html

To summarise the first article, there is concern that the contractors
who upgraded mid-twentieth-century tower blocks as part of the Decent
Homes Initiative didn't understand the built-in fire safety features
and in modernising them, made them fire-traps.

In a similar vein, and getting back to the point of this discussion,
Victorian house builders were not primitive idiots: they were amongst
the finest engineers this country has known and, in the context of
this specific matter, with the exception of situations where a known
waterproof barrier has failed over time, if a cellar is damp or gets
flooded from time to time, it's wise to assume that it was designed
from the outset to do that for reasons that, more than one hundred
years later, we may know nothing about.

We twenty-first century constructors are very good at applying brute
force solutions to the problems we perceive but unless we can see the
whole picture there is always the risk of unintended consequences -
such as the tower block fire-traps referenced above.

Nick

On Jan 13, 9:38 am, Nick Odell wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 08:11:24 -0800 (PST), Jim K
wrote:



On 12 Jan, 07:58, harry wrote:
On Jan 11, 11:20 am, Jim K wrote:

I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

So 3X2 studwork spaced a few inches away from walls, pboard, maybe
some insulation - building regs required?

Cheers
Jim K

There is no point in insulating your cellar. It is "earth shielded"
and massively insulated already.

No. it's called a "massive heat sink" NOT "insulated".

The reason it is cold down there is water evaporating from the walls.

Of course the lack of heating and the vents to the outside will also
help to keep the temp well down?

It was built to do exactly this for the storage of food & beverages
before refrigerators were invented for the masses.

surprised the masses in a 1up 1down back to back needed that much
storage being a) poor, b) "hand to mouth" existence and all that?

This cellar was built as the building is on a slope.The cellar forms
part of what I call "the foundations".
The other back to back adjacent to it has a lower ground floor instead
of a "cellar" - wonder what the masses did if they lived there? die of
listeria?

The reason the paint is flaking is the damp coming through from the
outside (as designed.)

whitewash copes well to a point

If you prevent the evaporation from happening, you may change ground
conditions outside the cellar wall and get actual water running in.
Depending on what was done regarding drainage outside the wall when it
was built.

No I don;t believe ground conditions could be changed that much by
lining a cellar.
Visible damp and mould may appear but only due to low/no evaporation
through crap ventilation.
"Running water" appearing is somewhat hysterical.

There are high tech solutions to apply vertical damp courses to the
inside of the cellar wall but battens and insulation and plasterboard
isn't one of them.

the high tech one is called tanking Harry.

Interesting pair of articles currently featured on the front page of
the Independent on Sunday and linked to hehttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...stigation-reve...

and hehttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...building-metho...

To summarise the first article, there is concern that the contractors
who upgraded mid-twentieth-century tower blocks as part of the Decent
Homes Initiative didn't understand the built-in fire safety features
and in modernising them, made them fire-traps.

In a similar vein, and getting back to the point of this discussion,
Victorian house builders were not primitive idiots: they were amongst
the finest engineers this country has known and, in the context of
this specific matter, with the exception of situations where a known
waterproof barrier has failed over time, if a cellar is damp or gets
flooded from time to time, it's wise to assume that it was designed
from the outset to do that for reasons that, more than one hundred
years later, we may know nothing about.

We twenty-first century constructors are very good at applying brute
force solutions to the problems we perceive but unless we can see the
whole picture there is always the risk of unintended consequences -
such as the tower block fire-traps referenced above.

also should remember that the wondrous (in their time) victorians and
their forebears had a limited understanding of physics, chemistry
medicine you name it, they worked with what they had (or what they
could buy for what they wanted to spend) as we all do.

Builders are not always the sharpest knives in the drawer, and I
expect vast numbers of houses were thrown up without any real
technical reference to their local conditions at all, i.e. on a "just
like the last lot" basis, ultimately driven by cost, - they weren't
"owner built".

I would expect that basically "hiding" cellar walls should not
necessarily impinge on anything, given enough ventilation.

Jim K

On Jan 12, 6:48 pm, Hugo Nebula wrote:
[Default] On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 03:20:15 -0800 (PST), a certain
chimpanzee, Jim K , randomly hit the keyboard and
wrote:

I want to dry line a cellar - walls aren't running just efflorescent
and flaky paint, no mould.

Depends.

Is the cellar heated? If so;
-will there be any change to the accommodation (i.e., are you changing
it from not habitable to habitable), or
-if it's already habitable, then will you be making it worse than
before?

The answers a if unheated, then no. If heated, then strictly
speaking, yes, as a renovation of a thermal element.

If you're creating habitable rooms down there, then you should really
think about proper tanking. Even if not, most cellars to pre-war
properties in my experience were nothing more than the sub-floor void,
and ventilated to prevent mould growth, often with an open gully in
the floor to drain away all the rain and ground water that would come
in. That it was a good space to have a scullery or a cold store was
probably co-incidental.

so... if i get the stud walling done & add some sockets (sparky) = no
Bldg Ctrl required?

if I then add a radiator (done by pukka heating bod) = Bldg Ctrl
required? for all of it ? or just the rad?

Cheers
Jim K