On Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:41:00 PM UTC, Jules Richardson wrote:
On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 22:23:18 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:28:35 -0700 (PDT), meow2222 wrote:

If you end up moving it when the engine conks out, don't forget 95% of
the brake effort is powered by the engine.
That's why anyone with any sense doesn't rope tow a modern car. That and
the lack of power steering as well makes a car without engine power
*very* hard work to steer and brake.

Curious, there - are cars without power brakes much harder to stop when
the engine's not running than those which never had power brakes in the
first place?

Hugely so. Nearly all cars have power brakes. With no vacuum for the servo you don't get roadworthy braking.


I've got no power brakes on the truck and yes, it's like stopping a train
- but it *will* stop. But of course it was designed not to have power
brakes, so perhaps the manual servo is tuned to give more oomph from a
mk.1 foot than an 'equivalent' powered servo would be.

Trucks with no brake servo became obsolete in the 1920s. Before then drivers of large trucks had to be built like gorillas.


NT


Oh, lack of power steering's not an issue so long as you're moving at a
few MPH or more; it's only when parking that I feel like a need gorilla
arms :-)
cheers
Jules

wrote:


Trucks with no brake servo became obsolete in the 1920s. Before then drivers of large trucks had to be built like gorillas.

My 1948 Morris Commercial and my 1956 Bedford ambulance didn't have
power brakes or power steering. The Morris had a double width brake
pedal so you could press on it with two feet.

Bill

On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 18:07:43 -0700, meow2222 wrote:

On Tuesday, October 30, 2012 11:41:00 PM UTC, Jules Richardson wrote:
On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 22:23:18 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:28:35 -0700 (PDT), meow2222 wrote:

If you end up moving it when the engine conks out, don't forget
95% of
the brake effort is powered by the engine.
That's why anyone with any sense doesn't rope tow a modern car.
That and
the lack of power steering as well makes a car without engine power
*very* hard work to steer and brake.

Curious, there - are cars without power brakes much harder to stop when
the engine's not running than those which never had power brakes in the
first place?

Hugely so. Nearly all cars have power brakes. With no vacuum for the
servo you don't get roadworthy braking.

The roads are quiet around here so it's not too bad, it just takes a
little more scanning for possible hazards than I suspect most drivers
bother with.

I've got no power brakes on the truck and yes, it's like stopping a
train - but it *will* stop. But of course it was designed not to have
power brakes, so perhaps the manual servo is tuned to give more oomph
from a mk.1 foot than an 'equivalent' powered servo would be.

Trucks with no brake servo became obsolete in the 1920s. Before then
drivers of large trucks had to be built like gorillas.

Agreed, but I'm not sure when that became true on the smaller stuff. This
truck's a 1967 and I believe they offered power assist when the model was
revised in the early 1970s - but I think it was only an option, even then.

cheers

Jules

On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 18:07:43 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hugely so. Nearly all cars have power brakes. With no vacuum for the servo you don't get roadworthy braking.

Cobblers. I suggest you get on a weight training course to build up
your puny muscles. All cars must have useable brakes in the event of
power assistance failure. Trouble is, we have bred a generation of
wimps who've never driven un-assisted vehicles and spout ********
about them.

On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 23:41:00 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson wrote:

Curious, there - are cars without power brakes much harder to stop when
the engine's not running than those which never had power brakes in the
first place?

Yes, and it varies from car to car but once the vacum has gone (the first
or possibly second, application of the brakes from loss of power/vacum)
braking will require considerably more effort. In my car braking with no
vacum left requires one to press the pedal with every ounce of strength
you have to get less than 25% of full braking. It will stop but
alarmingly slowly...

Oh, lack of power steering's not an issue so long as you're moving at a
few MPH or more; it's only when parking that I feel like a need gorilla
arms :-)

I suspect that varies from car to car as well. Again mine really needs
gorilla arms if the engine isn't running, moving or not.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 23:41:00 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson wrote:

Curious, there - are cars without power brakes much harder to stop when
the engine's not running than those which never had power brakes in the
first place?

Yes, and it varies from car to car but once the vacum has gone (the first
or possibly second, application of the brakes from loss of power/vacum)
braking will require considerably more effort. In my car braking with no
vacum left requires one to press the pedal with every ounce of strength
you have to get less than 25% of full braking. It will stop but
alarmingly slowly...

Oh, lack of power steering's not an issue so long as you're moving at a
few MPH or more; it's only when parking that I feel like a need gorilla
arms :-)

I suspect that varies from car to car as well. Again mine really needs
gorilla arms if the engine isn't running, moving or not.


Neighbour ran out of petrol the other day with car in the middl eof the road
outside my house.

I hopped in and ran it backwards down the hill under gravity in order to
park it properly, before giving her a lift to the petrol station to fill up
a can.

It did take a reasonable amount of foor pressure to control it at just 2mph
on a 5% hill!


--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent
moral busybodies."

On 31/10/2012 09:24, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 23:41:00 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson wrote:


Oh, lack of power steering's not an issue so long as you're moving at a
few MPH or more; it's only when parking that I feel like a need gorilla
arms :-)

I suspect that varies from car to car as well. Again mine really needs
gorilla arms if the engine isn't running, moving or not.


Certainly does. When the big red light comes on in a Citroen CX, DS, ID
(meaning you are losing hydraulic pressure) you stop ASAP.

On Tuesday, October 30, 2012 10:28:03 PM UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:28:35 -0700 (PDT), meow2222 wrote:

If you end up moving it when the engine conks out, don't forget 95% of
the brake effort is powered by the engine.
That's why anyone with any sense doesn't rope tow a modern car. That and
the lack of power steering as well makes a car without engine power
*very* hard work to steer and brake.

Anyone that knows what they're doing puts the car in top gear when being towed, either all the time or at key moments so the necessary vacuum power is available. The main problem with towing is you're doing 40 or 50 just yards behind someone, with absolutely no forward vision or control over what they're doing, and a lot of drivers really have no grasp of the issues the towed car faces in such a situation. It can be fun.


NT

On 30/10/2012 22:23, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:28:35 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

If you end up moving it when the engine conks out, don't forget 95% of
the brake effort is powered by the engine.

That's why anyone with any sense doesn't rope tow a modern car. That and
the lack of power steering as well makes a car without engine power
*very* hard work to steer and brake.

Without electric power for steering in many smaller vehicles. And the
steering motor can take quite a deal of power - no idea of the
wattage/amperage.

--
Rod

On Oct 30, 7:28*pm, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 30, 2012 5:51:21 PM UTC, wrote:
Bugger just failed. Tonights journey home took an hour (inc 15 minutes with
the engine off at a level crossing) but with the headlights on for all the
journey apart from the level crossing wait.
No heater on, no radio on and just an occasional use of the wipers.
It's a 65Ah battery in a diesel van and the battery still has some power in
it now that I am back home - enough to restart the van without any problems.
The problem is I cannot easily get the alternator changed until Monday so
the 8A battery charger will be on overnight and I need the van for the next
3 days. Recharging at work is not a problem.

Headlights are the main load, 55w ea is around 10A, plus around 1A for rears. ISTR mechanical ignition eating a few amps. 15A 65Ah is 4hrs if fully charged. Its longer than a car because of the battery capacity.

Is it?

A spare battery will help, plus parking it on a hill so you can bump start it. The average petrol tranny is push startable on level ground, I don't know about diesel. If you've got to preheat it, that'll drain the battery fast.

If you break down away from home, towing is pricey these days, just about no-one is willing to use a tow rope any more, everyone wants to trailer it.. I've done enough towing to understand why.

Did professionals ever use ropes in the last few decades? Solid towing
bars are far more common.

MBQ

On Wednesday, October 31, 2012 9:03:21 AM UTC, Man at B&Q wrote:
On Oct 30, 7:28 pm, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 30, 2012 5:51:21 PM UTC, wrote:

Bugger just failed. Tonights journey home took an hour (inc 15 minutes with
the engine off at a level crossing) but with the headlights on for all the
journey apart from the level crossing wait.
No heater on, no radio on and just an occasional use of the wipers.
It's a 65Ah battery in a diesel van and the battery still has some power in
it now that I am back home - enough to restart the van without any problems.
The problem is I cannot easily get the alternator changed until Monday so
the 8A battery charger will be on overnight and I need the van for the next
3 days. Recharging at work is not a problem.

Headlights are the main load, 55w ea is around 10A, plus around 1A for rears. ISTR mechanical ignition eating a few amps. 15A 65Ah is 4hrs if fully charged. Its longer than a car because of the battery capacity.
Is it?
A spare battery will help, plus parking it on a hill so you can bump start it. The average petrol tranny is push startable on level ground, I don't know about diesel. If you've got to preheat it, that'll drain the battery fast.

If you break down away from home, towing is pricey these days, just about no-one is willing to use a tow rope any more, everyone wants to trailer it. I've done enough towing to understand why.

Did professionals ever use ropes in the last few decades? Solid towing
bars are far more common.
MBQ

With professionals, yes

"ARW" wrote in message
...
Bugger just failed. Tonights journey home took an hour (inc 15 minutes
with the engine off at a level crossing) but with the headlights on for
all the journey apart from the level crossing wait.

No heater on, no radio on and just an occasional use of the wipers.

It's a 65Ah battery in a diesel van and the battery still has some power
in it now that I am back home - enough to restart the van without any
problems.

The problem is I cannot easily get the alternator changed until Monday so
the 8A battery charger will be on overnight and I need the van for the
next 3 days. Recharging at work is not a problem.

--
Adam



I had a similar problem in December last year. Please remember to undo the
caps to
the battery cells when charging. I forgot, and it didn't t half go off with
a bang. It blew
a bloody great hole in the end of the battery!!

Mike

One of the members of our motorhome club had the alternator fail at the
end of his holiday, just as he was setting off for home. He had to be at
work on the Monday, he was at the top end of Scotland, and couldn't hang
about. He tied his little Honda genny onto the roof platform, and fed
the mains voltage into one of his chargers. Linked the habitation
circuit fed from that charger to the vehicle battery via a long length
of TV coax. It worked fine, got him home. Several times he forgot to
disconnect whilst starting and strangely the TV cable didn't catch fire.

Bill

On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 20:45:44 +0000, Bill Wright
wrote:

One of the members of our motorhome club had the alternator fail at the
end of his holiday, just as he was setting off for home. He had to be at
work on the Monday, he was at the top end of Scotland, and couldn't hang
about. He tied his little Honda genny onto the roof platform, and fed
the mains voltage into one of his chargers. Linked the habitation
circuit fed from that charger to the vehicle battery via a long length
of TV coax. It worked fine, got him home. Several times he forgot to
disconnect whilst starting and strangely the TV cable didn't catch fire.

By that time the battery had taken enough charge, of course.

On 30/10/2012 17:51, ARW wrote:
Bugger just failed. Tonights journey home took an hour (inc 15 minutes with
the engine off at a level crossing) but with the headlights on for all the
journey apart from the level crossing wait.

No heater on, no radio on and just an occasional use of the wipers.

It's a 65Ah battery in a diesel van and the battery still has some power in
it now that I am back home - enough to restart the van without any problems.

The problem is I cannot easily get the alternator changed until Monday so
the 8A battery charger will be on overnight and I need the van for the next
3 days. Recharging at work is not a problem.


I would have thought that a man of your calIber would have inserted an
ammeter into the battery connection to see what current you were
drawing. You should then be able to work out approx how long a battery
of specified capacity will last.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On 30/10/2012 17:51, ARW wrote:
No heater on, no radio on and just an occasional use of the wipers.

Heater is fine. Heater _fan_ is what you must avoid. Slipstream may
give you a little warmth.

Andy

I guess it depends how good the battery is, if its quite old then its not
going to do as well.

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"ARW" wrote in message
...
Bugger just failed. Tonights journey home took an hour (inc 15 minutes
with the engine off at a level crossing) but with the headlights on for
all the journey apart from the level crossing wait.

No heater on, no radio on and just an occasional use of the wipers.

It's a 65Ah battery in a diesel van and the battery still has some power
in it now that I am back home - enough to restart the van without any
problems.

The problem is I cannot easily get the alternator changed until Monday so
the 8A battery charger will be on overnight and I need the van for the
next 3 days. Recharging at work is not a problem.

--
Adam

On Tuesday, October 30, 2012 5:51:21 PM UTC, wrote:
Bugger just failed. Recharging at work is not a problem.

Can you carry a generator and battery charger with you just so you know you can recharge anywhere if you really have to?

Robert