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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Heating system design
Will I need two expansion vessels in a closed system design if the boiler doesn't have an internal one? One for the heating and flow to direct hot water tank one for supply to tank To explain further see schematics here http://www.eco-hometec.co.uk/Schemat...ms/ECOSCH8.pdf where two expansion vessels are shown Also do I need to fill the hot water and heating sides seperately or will they be connected together somewhere? mant thanks Nick |
#2
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Heating system design
"Nick Brooks" wrote in message ... Will I need two expansion vessels in a closed system design if the boiler doesn't have an internal one? One for the heating and flow to direct hot water tank one for supply to tank To explain further see schematics here http://www.eco-hometec.co.uk/Schemat...ms/ECOSCH8.pdf where two expansion vessels are shown Also do I need to fill the hot water and heating sides seperately or will they be connected together somewhere? mant thanks Nick More info. What boiler? What cylinder? Vented with a cold storage tanks or unvented (pressurised)? --- -- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.538 / Virus Database: 333 - Release Date: 10/11/2003 |
#4
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Heating system design
Will I need two expansion vessels in a closed system design if the
boiler doesn't have an internal one? That will depend on how the circuit is implemented and the boiler chosen. It isn't clear from the schematic what the two different flow and return lines from the boiler are. Are they isolated circuits? Are they just two outlets from a diverter valve on the same circuit? (i.e. similar to a Worcester-Bosch system boiler with the optional internal diverter valve). You may need one anyway, as the water content of such a system might be so high that a boiler internal expansion vessel wouldn't be big enough to contain the pressure rise. Christian. |
#5
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Heating system design
Eco Hometec EC31 HS Condensing Boiler
Eco Hometec Duo tank Unvented mains pressure Cylinder Schematic of my proposed system will be available asap Nick IMM wrote: "Nick Brooks" wrote in message ... Will I need two expansion vessels in a closed system design if the boiler doesn't have an internal one? One for the heating and flow to direct hot water tank one for supply to tank To explain further see schematics here http://www.eco-hometec.co.uk/Schemat...ms/ECOSCH8.pdf where two expansion vessels are shown Also do I need to fill the hot water and heating sides seperately or will they be connected together somewhere? mant thanks Nick More info. What boiler? What cylinder? Vented with a cold storage tanks or unvented (pressurised)? --- -- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.538 / Virus Database: 333 - Release Date: 10/11/2003 |
#6
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Heating system design
Here is a schematic of what I propose. Please let me hace any suggestions.
http://www.saucefx.com/nick/heating/heating_system.jpg many thanks Nick |
#7
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Heating system design
In article , Nick Brooks nick.brooks_N
writes Here is a schematic of what I propose. Please let me hace any suggestions. http://www.saucefx.com/nick/heating/heating_system.jpg many thanks Nick The expansion vessel for the DHW is to accommodate expansion of the water in the cylinder when it is heated and so needs to have an unrestricted connection to the cylinder; you've currently got a non return valve between them. Be aware that UK water regs prohibit amateur installation of unvented DHW systems and that building regs approval is required. -- fred |
#8
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Heating system design
Be aware that UK water regs prohibit amateur installation of unvented
DHW systems and that building regs approval is required. My understanding that it is an "or", not an "and". i.e. Be aware that UK building regs prohibit amateur installation of unvented DHW systems unless building regs approval is obtained. Christian. P.S. it is only above a certain storage capacity that this applies. (For some reason 13 litres rings a bell, but I could be well out). This enables unvented mains pressure water systems not using storage to be fitted without approval (unless also required by Part L). |
#9
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Heating system design
In article , Christian
McArdle writes Be aware that UK water regs prohibit amateur installation of unvented DHW systems and that building regs approval is required. My understanding that it is an "or", not an "and". I think you're mistaken, but I'm happy to be pointed at a URL. P.S. it is only above a certain storage capacity that this applies. (For some reason 13 litres rings a bell, but I could be well out). This enables unvented mains pressure water systems not using storage to be fitted without approval (unless also required by Part L). Hmmn, I think in that it might just be larger in this case ;-) -- fred |
#10
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Heating system design
I think you're mistaken, but I'm happy to be pointed at a URL.
After investigating further, I've found it is in Approved Document G3. It does seem more strictly defined than other such "competent person" situations, but I think there is still a loophole. I am not a lawyer, though, so if intending to do this, you should check with your local building control before doing anything to ensure that they agree. "3.8 The unit or package should be installed by a competent person i.e. one holding a current Registered Operative identity card..." It goes on to list various bodies. Although this indeed might suggest that it is not permitted, I doubt that legally speaking the use of "i.e." could be said to exclude other competent people. (Again, I'm not a lawyer, so maybe it can so exclude alternatives). One thing is not in doubt though. You certainly need to be in one of those bodies to be able to self certificate the work. You would, therefore, need to get approval from the building control department, which could be costly and involve an inspection. Christian. P.S. It is 15 litres for the exemption, not 13 litres. |
#11
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Heating system design
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message t... Be aware that UK water regs prohibit amateur installation of unvented DHW systems and that building regs approval is required. My understanding that it is an "or", not an "and". i.e. Be aware that UK building regs prohibit amateur installation of unvented DHW systems unless building regs approval is obtained. So, an amature can do, but has to go to building control. How much des this cost. P.S. it is only above a certain storage capacity that this applies. (For some reason 13 litres rings a bell, but I could be well out). 10 actually - from memory. This enables unvented mains pressure water systems not using storage to be fitted without approval (unless also required by Part L). --- -- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.538 / Virus Database: 333 - Release Date: 10/11/2003 |
#12
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Heating system design
"fred" wrote in message ... In article , Christian McArdle writes Be aware that UK water regs prohibit amateur installation of unvented DHW systems and that building regs approval is required. My understanding that it is an "or", not an "and". I think you're mistaken, but I'm happy to be pointed at a URL. Do a Google. Andy posted the regs here not long ago. P.S. it is only above a certain storage capacity that this applies. (For some reason 13 litres rings a bell, but I could be well out). This enables unvented mains pressure water systems not using storage to be fitted without approval (unless also required by Part L). Hmmn, I think in that it might just be larger in this case ;-) -- fred --- -- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.538 / Virus Database: 333 - Release Date: 10/11/2003 |
#13
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Heating system design
Regarding fitting, we are doing other work on the house as well so the
building regs people are already involved. The inspector's opinion was that it was fine for me to do the work providing it met the regulations. The only thing he specifically asked about was the temperature/pressure relief valve. I'd be very grateful if people could comment on my system design which as mentioned earlier is available he- http://www.saucefx.com/nick/heating/heating_system.jpg or http://www.saucefx.com/nick/heating/heating_system.gif many thanks Nick |
#14
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Heating system design
The only thing he specifically asked about was the temperature/pressure
relief valve. The temperature/pressure relief valve will be supplied with the cylinder as a package. The installation instructions that come with the package will describe the pressure relief measures which must be followed to the letter. There may be restrictions and requirements about where the pressure relief line must run to. There will be a separate safety zone valve on the indirect coil, which MUST NOT also be used for functional switching/temperature control. The immersion heater must have two thermostats, one of which must be manually resetting requiring user intervention. You must also ensure that the system is designed to work without relying on expanding water backwards into the water supply, like some US systems. UK systems typically have pressure reducing valves or check valves that prevent such expansion. If you are doing this yourself and haven't yet bought the system, consider a heat bank instead. I've just fitted one myself and it definitely works. Installation couldn't be simpler. Connect the flow/return lines, mains water in, hot water out. Connect to mains electricity. Fill it up with water. That's it. No safety valves. No overflows. No vents. No additional tanks. Nothing. Costed the same as an equivalent Megaflo. The main possible problem is that the boiler might limit the flow temperature to below the 80-85C you need to reheat it. This will depend on the internal electronics of the boiler. If the boiler can select different flow temperatures for heating the cylinder or running the underfloor/radiator circuit, then it could be ideal. Christian. |
#15
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Heating system design
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:42:19 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote: The main possible problem is that the boiler might limit the flow temperature to below the 80-85C you need to reheat it. This will depend on the internal electronics of the boiler. If the boiler can select different flow temperatures for heating the cylinder or running the underfloor/radiator circuit, then it could be ideal. Christian. On the MAN Micromat, actually you have a lot of control via the programming. You can buy a water cylinder temperature sensor for it quite cheaply from Eco Hometec for optimum control. This is normally intended to monitor the temperature of the cylinder water and the boiler firmware allows that to be set at up to 70 degrees. Alternatively, for a heatbank, where 80 degrees for the bulk water may be desirable, a conventional cylinder thermostat could be used and the boiler can be programmed to use that instead. The flow temperature can be set separately for HW (or heatbank) service vs. the CH and boiler has electrical outputs to operate pumps or motorised valves as appropriate. In addition, the boiler power level is increased in the case of the EC31 up to 36kW vs. 28-31kW for CH. ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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