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Fatally Flawed
The campain against the use of child proof socket covers is wriggling more
than dennis. http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/html/other_dangers.html mentions Liam Boyles death. The site IMHO virtually blames his Mother for his death as SHE did not ensure that she kept the dangerous lead out of her sons hands. Liam Boyle (ISTR it was Owain gave us all the details of the death at the time and inquest) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-12973829 -- Adam |
Fatally Flawed
On 21/06/2012 20:23, ARWadsworth wrote:
The campain against the use of child proof socket covers is wriggling more than dennis. http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/html/other_dangers.html mentions Liam Boyles death. The site IMHO virtually blames his Mother for his death as SHE did not ensure that she kept the dangerous lead out of her sons hands. "The lead with moulded plug attached had been removed from an appliance that was being installed by a handyman, instead of removing the fuse and ensuring that the lead was safely disposed of the lead was left lying where Liam could find it." That does sound careless. If I dump an electrical appliance I always break the live pin off the plug. Liam Boyle (ISTR it was Owain gave us all the details of the death at the time and inquest) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-12973829 I didn't know earth pins had to be solid brass e.g. not partly insulated. When did that come in? -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk |
Fatally Flawed
The Medway Handyman wrote:
I didn't know earth pins had to be solid brass e.g. not partly insulated. When did that come in? 1947 ... i.e. it came in from the start when all pins were solid brass and it never changed, it was only later that shrouding came in for the L and N pins, alternatively an all plastic earth pin (insulated shutter opening device for the pedants) can be used where the appliance doesn't require earthing. |
Fatally Flawed
On 21/06/2012 21:23, Andy Burns wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote: I didn't know earth pins had to be solid brass e.g. not partly insulated. When did that come in? 1947 ... i.e. it came in from the start when all pins were solid brass and it never changed, it was only later that shrouding came in for the L and N pins, alternatively an all plastic earth pin (insulated shutter opening device for the pedants) can be used where the appliance doesn't require earthing. In fact if you see a plug with a partially insulated earth pin, then its a guarantee that its non BS compliant, and probably dodgy in all sorts of ways. (plenty on ebay for example) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Fatally Flawed
In article ,
"ARWadsworth" writes: The campain against the use of child proof socket covers is wriggling more than dennis. http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/html/other_dangers.html mentions Liam Boyles death. The site IMHO virtually blames his Mother for his death as SHE did not ensure that she kept the dangerous lead out of her sons hands. I posted about this a while back. I was fairly neutral about Fatally Flawed until then. We now have a couple of deaths which could have been avoided by the use of dummy plugs, and not even a single injury caused by their use. So I now think Fatally Flawed is basically a bunch of misguided time wasters. If they want to do something useful, they could try and get the dummy plugs included in BS1363. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
Fatally Flawed
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
So I now think Fatally Flawed is basically a bunch of misguided time wasters. If they want to do something useful, they could try and get the dummy plugs included in BS1363. Thing is, if dummy plugs were covered by BS1363 it would remove the point for them, eg: must be removable from socket without tools by grasping sides of body. On second thoughts, yes, get them covered by BS1363. JGH |
Fatally Flawed
On 21/06/2012 23:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article , "ARWadsworth" writes: The campain against the use of child proof socket covers is wriggling more than dennis. http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/html/other_dangers.html mentions Liam Boyles death. The site IMHO virtually blames his Mother for his death as SHE did not ensure that she kept the dangerous lead out of her sons hands. I posted about this a while back. I was fairly neutral about Fatally Flawed until then. We now have a couple of deaths which could have been avoided by the use of dummy plugs, and not even a single injury caused by their use. I am not convinced that the plugs would necessarily have helped anyway. I have seen so many removed by kids without any difficulty[1] - plus the "fuss" created by their parents insisting on using the protectors only seems to draw their kids attention to the socket as something interesting to play with, that can also jerk mummy's chain with whenever they feel the need. [1] where quite often the adults have more difficulty getting them out! So I now think Fatally Flawed is basically a bunch of misguided time wasters. If they want to do something useful, they could try and get the dummy plugs included in BS1363. Having them conform to proper pin length and tip shaping requirements would seem like a sensible precaution to avoid socket damage. As would a specification of appropriate material composition... -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Fatally Flawed
On Jun 22, 2:34*am, John Rumm wrote:
On 21/06/2012 23:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote: In article , * *"ARWadsworth" writes: The campain against the use of child proof socket covers is wriggling more than dennis. http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/html/other_dangers.html mentions Liam Boyles death. The site IMHO virtually blames his Mother for his death as SHE did not ensure that she kept the dangerous lead out of her sons hands. I posted about this a while back. I was fairly neutral about Fatally Flawed until then. We now have a couple of deaths which could have been avoided by the use of dummy plugs, and not even a single injury caused by their use. I am not convinced that the plugs would necessarily have helped anyway. I have seen so many removed by kids without any difficulty[1] - plus the "fuss" created by their parents insisting on using the protectors only seems to draw their kids attention to the socket as something interesting to play with, that can also jerk mummy's chain with whenever they feel the need. [1] where quite often the adults have more difficulty getting them out! So I now think Fatally Flawed is basically a bunch of misguided time wasters. If they want to do something useful, they could try and get the dummy plugs included in BS1363. Having them conform to proper pin length and tip shaping requirements would seem like a sensible precaution to avoid socket damage. As would a specification of appropriate material composition... -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | * * * * *Internode Ltd - *http://www.internode.co.uk* * * * * *| |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | * * * *John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk * * * * * * *| \================================================= ================/- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Electricity will always be dangerous. I have seen kids chewing flexes. The only way you will get round it is by banning loose plug in flexes or making the socket on the end have shutters too. What is the point of these plug in flexes anyway? I see you can buy BC lampholders now with shutters. |
Fatally Flawed
"harry" wrote in message ... On Jun 22, 2:34 am, John Rumm wrote: On 21/06/2012 23:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote: In article , "ARWadsworth" writes: The campain against the use of child proof socket covers is wriggling more than dennis. http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/html/other_dangers.html mentions Liam Boyles death. The site IMHO virtually blames his Mother for his death as SHE did not ensure that she kept the dangerous lead out of her sons hands. I posted about this a while back. I was fairly neutral about Fatally Flawed until then. We now have a couple of deaths which could have been avoided by the use of dummy plugs, and not even a single injury caused by their use. I am not convinced that the plugs would necessarily have helped anyway. I have seen so many removed by kids without any difficulty[1] - plus the "fuss" created by their parents insisting on using the protectors only seems to draw their kids attention to the socket as something interesting to play with, that can also jerk mummy's chain with whenever they feel the need. [1] where quite often the adults have more difficulty getting them out! So I now think Fatally Flawed is basically a bunch of misguided time wasters. If they want to do something useful, they could try and get the dummy plugs included in BS1363. Having them conform to proper pin length and tip shaping requirements would seem like a sensible precaution to avoid socket damage. As would a specification of appropriate material composition... -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/- Electricity will always be dangerous. Not necessarily. I have seen kids chewing flexes. You really should feed them better. The only way you will get round it is by banning loose plug in flexes Not even possible. or making the socket on the end have shutters too. That wouldn't stop electricity being dangerous. What is the point of these plug in flexes anyway? Even someone as stupid as you should have noticed that it just aint feasible to have everything permanently wired in, most obviously with power tools. I see you can buy BC lampholders now with shutters. Wont do a damned thing about the kids gnawing on the flexes. |
Fatally Flawed
On 21/06/2012 22:05, John Rumm wrote:
On 21/06/2012 21:23, Andy Burns wrote: The Medway Handyman wrote: I didn't know earth pins had to be solid brass e.g. not partly insulated. When did that come in? 1947 ... i.e. it came in from the start when all pins were solid brass and it never changed, it was only later that shrouding came in for the L and N pins, alternatively an all plastic earth pin (insulated shutter opening device for the pedants) can be used where the appliance doesn't require earthing. In fact if you see a plug with a partially insulated earth pin, then its a guarantee that its non BS compliant, and probably dodgy in all sorts of ways. (plenty on ebay for example) I discovered a 2-way trailing extension block lead that I had bought a couple of years ago - I don't know where from - was pretty dodgy. I think there must be a lot of nasty stuff around now. Is it possible to buy plugs and leads made in the UK anymore? This particular item was so poor: the cable grip inside the 2-way block was simply not able to function as a cable grip. The cable was loose and indeed had worked its way out so that the insulation was no longer within the grip. I noticed that (I need to PAT test all the equipment for my jazz orchestra for a wedding we're doing in September) and so I tried to put the cable back in properly thinking it hadn't been assembled correctly - but no, the grip was quite clearly never able to hold the cable. This means that it could have been pulled out of the block whilst the 13A plug at the other end of the cable was plugged in - leaving some exposed live wires! YUK! Michael |
Fatally Flawed
Electricity will always be dangerous. I have seen kids chewing flexes. Better to use the flex to strangle the parents |
Fatally Flawed
On 22/06/2012 07:50, harry wrote:
On Jun 22, 2:34 am, John wrote: On 21/06/2012 23:47, Andrew Gabriel wrote: In , writes: The campain against the use of child proof socket covers is wriggling more than dennis. http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/html/other_dangers.html mentions Liam Boyles death. The site IMHO virtually blames his Mother for his death as SHE did not ensure that she kept the dangerous lead out of her sons hands. I posted about this a while back. I was fairly neutral about Fatally Flawed until then. We now have a couple of deaths which could have been avoided by the use of dummy plugs, and not even a single injury caused by their use. I am not convinced that the plugs would necessarily have helped anyway. I have seen so many removed by kids without any difficulty[1] - plus the "fuss" created by their parents insisting on using the protectors only seems to draw their kids attention to the socket as something interesting to play with, that can also jerk mummy's chain with whenever they feel the need. [1] where quite often the adults have more difficulty getting them out! So I now think Fatally Flawed is basically a bunch of misguided time wasters. If they want to do something useful, they could try and get the dummy plugs included in BS1363. Having them conform to proper pin length and tip shaping requirements would seem like a sensible precaution to avoid socket damage. As would a specification of appropriate material composition... -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Electricity will always be dangerous. I have seen kids chewing flexes. The only way you will get round it is by banning loose plug in flexes or making the socket on the end have shutters too. I have often thought that shuttering would make sense, but it couldn't be done for the smaller connectors and equipment is often too small to be equipped with the larger ones. What is the point of these plug in flexes anyway? So that manufacturers don't need to equip their product with specific plugs for all the countries they sell into on the production line - they just buy-in the appropriate leads for packaging. It also allows users to change cables easily if damaged or if they are the wrong length. Allows people to move equipment between home and office, without having to carry leads with bulky BS1363 plugs on with them. Allows easy swapping for laptop chargers and the like where they may well be used abroad and different leads are required. Allows equipment to be easily plugged and unplugged when the mains plug is plugged into a socket behind a desk or cupboard and is difficult to access. I'm sure there are many more. SteveW |
Fatally Flawed
John Rumm used his keyboard to write :
On 21/06/2012 21:23, Andy Burns wrote: The Medway Handyman wrote: I didn't know earth pins had to be solid brass e.g. not partly insulated. When did that come in? 1947 ... i.e. it came in from the start when all pins were solid brass and it never changed, it was only later that shrouding came in for the L and N pins, alternatively an all plastic earth pin (insulated shutter opening device for the pedants) can be used where the appliance doesn't require earthing. In fact if you see a plug with a partially insulated earth pin, then its a guarantee that its non BS compliant, and probably dodgy in all sorts of ways. (plenty on ebay for example) I have come across several examples of molded on 13amp plugs, with an IEC plug on the far end, where there has been no fuse at all in the plug. Typically they have been supplied with computer equipment originating in the far east. The plugs are triangular and just large enough to contain the pins. -- Regards, Harry (M1BYT) (L) http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk |
Fatally Flawed
Michael Kilpatrick was thinking very hard :
This particular item was so poor: the cable grip inside the 2-way block was simply not able to function as a cable grip. The cable was loose and indeed had worked its way out so that the insulation was no longer within the grip. I noticed that (I need to PAT test all the equipment for my jazz orchestra for a wedding we're doing in September) and so I tried to put the cable back in properly thinking it hadn't been assembled correctly - but no, the grip was quite clearly never able to hold the cable. This problem was true of several examples of UK made plugs from several years ago. The clamp piece was made from some poor fibre board where if the two self tappers of the clamp were tightened up adequately, the clamp would simply delaminate and rip. I don't think these are made any more and all of the modern ones use a nylon clamp. -- Regards, Harry (M1BYT) (L) http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk |
Fatally Flawed
In article , Harry
Bloomfield wrote: John Rumm used his keyboard to write : On 21/06/2012 21:23, Andy Burns wrote: The Medway Handyman wrote: I didn't know earth pins had to be solid brass e.g. not partly insulated. When did that come in? 1947 ... i.e. it came in from the start when all pins were solid brass and it never changed, it was only later that shrouding came in for the L and N pins, alternatively an all plastic earth pin (insulated shutter opening device for the pedants) can be used where the appliance doesn't require earthing. In fact if you see a plug with a partially insulated earth pin, then its a guarantee that its non BS compliant, and probably dodgy in all sorts of ways. (plenty on ebay for example) I have come across several examples of molded on 13amp plugs, with an IEC plug on the far end, where there has been no fuse at all in the plug. Typically they have been supplied with computer equipment originating in the far east. The plugs are triangular and just large enough to contain the pins. there is no user replacable fuse - not the same thing. -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18 |
Fatally Flawed
On 22/06/2012 11:51, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Michael Kilpatrick was thinking very hard : This particular item was so poor: the cable grip inside the 2-way block was simply not able to function as a cable grip. The cable was loose and indeed had worked its way out so that the insulation was no longer within the grip. I noticed that (I need to PAT test all the equipment for my jazz orchestra for a wedding we're doing in September) and so I tried to put the cable back in properly thinking it hadn't been assembled correctly - but no, the grip was quite clearly never able to hold the cable. This problem was true of several examples of UK made plugs from several years ago. The clamp piece was made from some poor fibre board where if the two self tappers of the clamp were tightened up adequately, the clamp would simply delaminate and rip. I don't think these are made any more and all of the modern ones use a nylon clamp. The clamp in question of the form of two flexible plastic lugs either side of the cable with reverse-facing teeth such that the teeth should dig in and grip the cable when tension is applied. However, the teeth were barely teeth at all and the lugs put so little pressure on the cable (yes it was a 13A cable of a standard diameter) that it couldn't possibly ever work. There are several designs of plug which have more than adequate designs of cable grip which work without the use of the screws. This wasn't one of them. Michael |
Fatally Flawed
charles submitted this idea :
I have come across several examples of molded on 13amp plugs, with an IEC plug on the far end, where there has been no fuse at all in the plug. Typically they have been supplied with computer equipment originating in the far east. The plugs are triangular and just large enough to contain the pins. there is no user replacable fuse - not the same thing. There was NO fuse, I dissected one to make sure. Plug shape was illegal as was the fact that the L & N pins were not insulated. -- Regards, Harry (M1BYT) (L) http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk |
Fatally Flawed
Michael Kilpatrick wrote on 22/06/2012 :
This problem was true of several examples of UK made plugs from several years ago. The clamp piece was made from some poor fibre board where if the two self tappers of the clamp were tightened up adequately, the clamp would simply delaminate and rip. I don't think these are made any more and all of the modern ones use a nylon clamp. The clamp in question of the form of two flexible plastic lugs either side of the cable with reverse-facing teeth such that the teeth should dig in and grip the cable when tension is applied. However, the teeth were barely teeth at all and the lugs put so little pressure on the cable (yes it was a 13A cable of a standard diameter) that it couldn't possibly ever work. There are several designs of plug which have more than adequate designs of cable grip which work without the use of the screws. This wasn't one of them. MK introduced a type like that several years ago - unfortunately the grips were so inflexible, it made it very difficult to get any but a small diameter cable in without a lot of force. -- Regards, Harry (M1BYT) (L) http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk |
Fatally Flawed
On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 20:23:06 +0100, "ARWadsworth"
wrote: The campain against the use of child proof socket covers is wriggling more than dennis. shrug Darwin in action. http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/html/other_dangers.html mentions Liam Boyles death. The site IMHO virtually blames his Mother for his death as SHE did not ensure that she kept the dangerous lead out of her sons hands. Scurrilous trash. I'm surprised at L.H-D picking up the cudgels - I shall view him as (more of a) **** from now on. |
Fatally Flawed
On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 12:03:59 +0100, Harry Bloomfield
wrote: Michael Kilpatrick wrote on 22/06/2012 : There are several designs of plug which have more than adequate designs of cable grip which work without the use of the screws. This wasn't one of them. MK introduced a type like that several years ago - unfortunately the grips were so inflexible, it made it very difficult to get any but a small diameter cable in without a lot of force. I've never had a problem with them except on very large cables that really should have been used with a BS4343 connector. IMHO all other 13A plug designs are inferior to the original MK Safety Plug. The design was groundbreaking and such an advance that other plug manufacturers should have hung their head in shame and withdrawn from the market because their products were instantly rendered as obsolete ****. I'm less happy with the more recent MK plugs as they are significantly harder to wire due to the use of unequal core lengths. If there was a need for the earth to disconnect last then moving the terminal internally a few mm would have been sufficient. But with a cable clamp that does just that you won't pull the cable out of the plug in the first place. -- |
Fatally Flawed
On 22/06/2012 12:03, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Michael Kilpatrick wrote on 22/06/2012 : There are several designs of plug which have more than adequate designs of cable grip which work without the use of the screws. This wasn't one of them. MK introduced a type like that several years ago - unfortunately the grips were so inflexible, it made it very difficult to get any but a small diameter cable in without a lot of force. There are some such design whereby the opposing grips can be lifted out and replaced slightly further in or out to accommodate different diameter cables. On the other hand, there seem to be many which are designed specifically for certain cable diameters only, and I guess that's what you came across. By pure coincidence I found three old such plugs on my desk right now! Here's a photo. http://www.ellington-music.co.uk/images/MainsPlugs.jpg From left to right you can see the (non-adjustable) grips are different widths apart and are clearly designed for a) flat 2-core 3A cable b) round 3A or 5A cable c) standard 13A cable Indeed, 3A,5A and 13A are exactly the fuses present in the plugs! Each of the cable grips work perfectly well - when the correct cable is used. If I try a flat 2-core 3A cable in the middle one, it's just a little two narrow to be gripped sufficiently. Plug (c) came from a kettle or something as it is branded Morphy Richards. You have to push a 13A cable reasonably hard to get it between the grips. The grips have only the tiniest of teeth but they clearly work extremely well! Somewhere in the house I've got a plug with toothed grips like the above, but which are adjustable. I don't know where it is. Michael |
Fatally Flawed
In article ,
The Other Mike wrote: On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 12:03:59 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote: Michael Kilpatrick wrote on 22/06/2012 : There are several designs of plug which have more than adequate designs of cable grip which work without the use of the screws. This wasn't one of them. MK introduced a type like that several years ago - unfortunately the grips were so inflexible, it made it very difficult to get any but a small diameter cable in without a lot of force. I've never had a problem with them except on very large cables that really should have been used with a BS4343 connector. IMHO all other 13A plug designs are inferior to the original MK Safety Plug. The design was groundbreaking and such an advance that other plug manufacturers should have hung their head in shame and withdrawn from the market because their products were instantly rendered as obsolete ****. I'm less happy with the more recent MK plugs as they are significantly harder to wire due to the use of unequal core lengths. 1. MK have alwasy used unequal lengths. 2. I can't find any plugs (other than 'Commando') on MK's website. If there was a need for the earth to disconnect last then moving the terminal internally a few mm would have been sufficient. But with a cable clamp that does just that you won't pull the cable out of the plug in the first place. -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18 |
Quote:
According to a pathologist Liam died instantly." There is no mention of Liam's mother, only a criticism of the handyman who failed to observe the most basic precautions. What we do say is that "It remains the responsibility of parents and carers to ensure that other, portable, devices which may give rise to shocks or burns are kept beyond the reach of small children." That must be true, it is ridiculous to suggest that a plug-in socket cover can prevent children plugging things in. That concept seems to be an invention of Clippasafe to combat the fact that FatallyFlawed had revealed that their basic claim was simply untrue. What Clippasafe claim for their product, as printed on the packaging, is: "These socket covers help prevent children from inserting fingers or other items into plug sockets." That is highly misleading, what prevents fingers is the size of the holes in a socket, and what prevents other objects is the shutters which have always been an integral part of a BS 1363 socket. Clippasafe, and other socket cover manufacturers, indulge in scaremongering to encourage the purchase of unnecessary junk. Anyway, Clippasafe, having been debunked, then tried to claim that covers “will prevent children from plugging in electrical items such as heaters and hair straighteners”. But, they also claim that their covers are “easily removed from the socket by inserting the plug you need to use” - clearly, these statements cannot both be true! One of the fundamental problems with plug-in socket covers is that they were originally designed for recessed European sockets (without built in shutters). Such covers do provide protection which is not already in the socket, and they do tend to be difficult for a child to remove without the use of some sort of key because the recessed socket means that little fingers cannot grasp the cover. When ignorant suppliers started to offer covers for non-recessed sockets such as UK and US sockets they failed to realise that it is simply not possible to prevent a child from pulling a cover out. One of the tricks they employ in attempts to make it more difficult is to make the pins oversize, but that, of course, will cause permanent contact damage. Other deviations from the standard size may also make it more difficult to remove, but cause other long term damage. Not one cover on the market conforms to BS 1363 dimensions! (US research has established that US socket covers are ineffective, and most states now require domestic new-builds to use shuttered sockets.) Getting back to the subject of Clippasafe, it is worth pointing out that in 2010 they quietly modified their design, this followed FatallyFlawed's revelation that their pins were too short to allow them to stay securely in place, and that objects could be inserted directly into the live contacts via the hole in the cover. At the same time they introduced a completely misshapen ISOD which has a pointed shape in one plane, and no chamfering whatsoever in the other plane. BS 1363 requires ISODs and pins to be no more than 2mm wide at the shaped end, many sockets (including some MK, Duraplug and Marbo sockets) have earth contacts right at the faceplate which have no flare, they have a contact opening of about 3mm. The end of the Clippasafe ISOD is the full thickness of the pin, 4mm. 4mm into a 3mm gap does not go, and attempts to force it tend to result in mangled contacts. Another example of how the designers of socket covers show no understanding of the real issues. Regarding dangerous plugs, you may like to take a look at BS 1363 Plugs and Sockets |
Fatally Flawed
In article ,
charles wrote: I'm less happy with the more recent MK plugs as they are significantly harder to wire due to the use of unequal core lengths. 1. MK have alwasy used unequal lengths. The original 'safety plug' made virtue of having the same length tails. But it was easy enough to put a loop in the earth wire. -- *Certain frogs can be frozen solid, then thawed, and survive * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Fatally Flawed
On 22/06/2012 11:52, charles wrote:
In article , Harry Bloomfield wrote: John Rumm used his keyboard to write : On 21/06/2012 21:23, Andy Burns wrote: The Medway Handyman wrote: I didn't know earth pins had to be solid brass e.g. not partly insulated. When did that come in? 1947 ... i.e. it came in from the start when all pins were solid brass and it never changed, it was only later that shrouding came in for the L and N pins, alternatively an all plastic earth pin (insulated shutter opening device for the pedants) can be used where the appliance doesn't require earthing. In fact if you see a plug with a partially insulated earth pin, then its a guarantee that its non BS compliant, and probably dodgy in all sorts of ways. (plenty on ebay for example) I have come across several examples of molded on 13amp plugs, with an IEC plug on the far end, where there has been no fuse at all in the plug. Typically they have been supplied with computer equipment originating in the far east. The plugs are triangular and just large enough to contain the pins. there is no user replacable fuse - not the same thing. I have seen these as well, and they fail on a multitude of points... No fuse (replaceable or otherwise) Pin spacings too close to the edge of the plug body CSA of the wire in the flex is often ridiculously thin -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Fatally Flawed
In article
, Owain wrote: On Jun 22, 3:25 pm, charles wrote: IMHO all other 13A plug designs are inferior to the original MK Safety Plug. ... I'm less happy with the more recent MK plugs as they are significantly harder to wire due to the use of unequal core lengths. 1. MK have alwasy used unequal lengths. 2. I can't find any plugs (other than 'Commando') on MK's website. http://www.mkelectric.com/en-gb/Prod...s/default.aspx Part No. MK 646 thank you - I never though "portable power" was the place to look. -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18 |
Fatally Flawed
Michael Kilpatrick wrote:
I discovered a 2-way trailing extension block lead that I had bought a couple of years ago - I don't know where from - was pretty dodgy. I think there must be a lot of nasty stuff around now. Is it possible to buy plugs and leads made in the UK anymore? http://www.olson.co.uk/13amp_slim.htm You'll have to ask the prices ... |
Fatally Flawed
"Owain" wrote in message ... On Jun 21, 11:47 pm, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote: I posted about this a while back. I was fairly neutral about Fatally Flawed until then. We now have a couple of deaths which could have been avoided by the use of dummy plugs, and not even a single injury caused by their use. However, if parents use dummy plugs, they may be even more complacent about leaving electrical stuff lying about, thinking their house is safe. The problem is not that sockets are dangerous, it's kids plugging unsafe things in. Therefore the solution is to control what and how kids can plug things in. The old-fashioned approach of unshuttered 15A sockets and giving the bairn a good skelp whenever he went near was probably close to optimal. Nope, its better to have shuttered sockets and keep doing the skelping. |
Fatally Flawed
On 22/06/2012 20:56, Andy Burns wrote:
Michael Kilpatrick wrote: I discovered a 2-way trailing extension block lead that I had bought a couple of years ago - I don't know where from - was pretty dodgy. I think there must be a lot of nasty stuff around now. Is it possible to buy plugs and leads made in the UK anymore? http://www.olson.co.uk/13amp_slim.htm You'll have to ask the prices ... Blimey, does anyone actually visit websites which say that you have to go to all the trouble of "asking for the prices"? I think life is a bit too short for that sort of nonsense. Michael |
Fatally Flawed
Michael Kilpatrick wrote:
On 22/06/2012 20:56, Andy Burns wrote: Michael Kilpatrick wrote: I discovered a 2-way trailing extension block lead that I had bought a couple of years ago - I don't know where from - was pretty dodgy. I think there must be a lot of nasty stuff around now. Is it possible to buy plugs and leads made in the UK anymore? http://www.olson.co.uk/13amp_slim.htm You'll have to ask the prices ... Blimey, does anyone actually visit websites which say that you have to go to all the trouble of "asking for the prices"? I think life is a bit too short for that sort of nonsense. Like a brothel then! -- Adam |
Fatally Flawed
On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 17:52:16 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , charles wrote: I'm less happy with the more recent MK plugs as they are significantly harder to wire due to the use of unequal core lengths. 1. MK have alwasy used unequal lengths. The original 'safety plug' made virtue of having the same length tails. Indeed they did, see my other reply to the OP for a link to a pic of the wiring guide. Equal lengths and the truly innovative and functional cord grip made plug fitting so much easier. Can't recall when they changed but all I've had in the last five years or so have sadly been the new and 'improved' type The original ones were a design classic. -- |
Fatally Flawed
On Fri, 22 Jun 2012 15:25:20 +0100, charles
wrote: In article , The Other Mike wrote: I'm less happy with the more recent MK plugs as they are significantly harder to wire due to the use of unequal core lengths. 1. MK have alwasy used unequal lengths. Not so. See this, the wiring guide supplied with an orignal MK Safeplug from the 80's and a 'new one' http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3531/...ginalvsnew.jpg 26mm with 8mm strip on the original 43mm with 8mm strip only on the earth conductor on the new ones -- |
Quote:
According to a pathologist Liam died instantly." There is no mention of Liam's mother, only a criticism of the handyman who failed to observe the most basic precautions. What we do say is that "It remains the responsibility of parents and carers to ensure that other, portable, devices which may give rise to shocks or burns are kept beyond the reach of small children." That must be true, it is ridiculous to suggest that a plug-in socket cover can prevent children plugging things in. That concept seems to be an invention of Clippasafe to combat the fact that FatallyFlawed had revealed that their basic claim was simply untrue. What Clippasafe claim for their product, as printed on the packaging, is: "These socket covers help prevent children from inserting fingers or other items into plug sockets." That is highly misleading, what prevents fingers is the size of the holes in a socket, and what prevents other objects is the shutters which have always been an integral part of a BS 1363 socket. Clippasafe, and other socket cover manufacturers, indulge in scaremongering to encourage the purchase of unnecessary junk. Anyway, Clippasafe, having been debunked, then tried to claim that covers “will prevent children from plugging in electrical items such as heaters and hair straighteners”. But, they also claim that their covers are “easily removed from the socket by inserting the plug you need to use” - clearly, these statements cannot both be true! One of the fundamental problems with plug-in socket covers is that they were originally designed for recessed European sockets (without built in shutters). Such covers do provide protection which is not already in the socket, and they do tend to be difficult for a child to remove without the use of some sort of key because the recessed socket means that little fingers cannot grasp the cover. When ignorant suppliers started to offer covers for non-recessed sockets such as UK and US sockets they failed to realise that it is simply not possible to prevent a child from pulling a cover out. One of the tricks they employ in attempts to make it more difficult is to make the pins oversize, but that, of course, will cause permanent contact damage. Other deviations from the standard size may also make it more difficult to remove, but cause other long term damage. Not one cover on the market conforms to BS 1363 dimensions! (US research has established that US socket covers are ineffective, and most states now require domestic new-builds to use shuttered sockets.) Getting back to the subject of Clippasafe, it is worth pointing out that in 2010 they quietly modified their design, this followed FatallyFlawed's revelation that their pins were too short to allow them to stay securely in place, and that objects could be inserted directly into the live contacts via the hole in the cover. At the same time they introduced a completely misshapen ISOD which has a pointed shape in one plane, and no chamfering whatsoever in the other plane. BS 1363 requires ISODs and pins to be no more than 2mm wide at the shaped end, many sockets (including some MK, Duraplug and Marbo sockets) have earth contacts right at the faceplate which have no flare, they have a contact opening of about 3mm. The end of the Clippasafe ISOD is the full thickness of the pin, 4mm. 4mm into a 3mm gap does not go, and attempts to force it tend to result in mangled contacts. Another example of how the designers of socket covers show no understanding of the real issues. Regarding dangerous plugs, you may like to take a look at BS 1363 Plugs and Sockets |
Fatally Flawed
On 22 Jun,
Harry Bloomfield wrote: MK introduced a type like that several years ago - unfortunately the grips were so inflexible, it made it very difficult to get any but a small diameter cable in without a lot of force. I've had one or two where a grip broke when trying to fit larger cables (1.5mm^2 or 2.5mm^2). They still seem to adequately hold the larger cables with one of the grips removed. -- B Thumbs Change lycos to yahoo to reply |
Fatally Flawed
On 22 Jun,
charles wrote: 1. MK have alwasy used unequal lengths. Revise: 1. MK have claimed to use equal lengths in their instructions. 1a. MK have alwasy needed unequal lengths in practice. 2. I can't find any plugs (other than 'Commando') on MK's website. -- B Thumbs Change lycos to yahoo to reply |
Fatally Flawed
On Jun 23, 12:49*am, wrote:
On 22 Jun, * * *charles wrote: 1. MK have alwasy used unequal lengths. Revise: 1. MK have claimed to use equal lengths in their instructions. 1a. MK have alwasy needed unequal lengths in practice. 2. I can't find any plugs (other than 'Commando') on MK's website. -- * B Thumbs * Change lycos to yahoo to reply MK certainly did use equal length/screwless grips at one time. I fitted hundreds. Still have several about the house. They came unstuck when people reused plugs that had had big cables fitted on small cables. Grip sometimes didn't grip. |
Fatally Flawed
Michael Kilpatrick wrote:
On 22/06/2012 20:56, Andy Burns wrote: Michael Kilpatrick wrote: I discovered a 2-way trailing extension block lead that I had bought a couple of years ago - I don't know where from - was pretty dodgy. I think there must be a lot of nasty stuff around now. Is it possible to buy plugs and leads made in the UK anymore? http://www.olson.co.uk/13amp_slim.htm You'll have to ask the prices ... Blimey, does anyone actually visit websites which say that you have to go to all the trouble of "asking for the prices"? I think life is a bit too short for that sort of nonsense. Michael I suspect it keeps their customer base down to people with moderate to large orders - their stuff is very popular in computer rooms - well built. Not too bad asking for a price on a 500 quid order... -- Tim Watts |
Quote:
According to a pathologist Liam died instantly." There is no mention of Liam's mother, only a criticism of the handyman who failed to observe the most basic precautions. We do believe that "It remains the responsibility of parents and carers to ensure that other, portable, devices which may give rise to shocks or burns are kept beyond the reach of small children.". That must be true, it is ridiculous to suggest that a plug-in socket cover can prevent children plugging things in. That concept seems to be an invention of Clippasafe to combat the fact that FatallyFlawed had revealed that their basic claim was simply untrue. What Clippasafe claim for their product, as printed on the packaging, is: "These socket covers help prevent children from inserting fingers or other items into plug sockets.") It is untrue because what prevents fingers is the size of the holes in a socket, and what prevents other objects is the shutters which have always been an integral part of a BS 1363 socket. Clippasafe, and other socket manufacturers, indulge in scaremongering to encourage the purchase of unnecessary junk. Anyway, Clippasafe, having been debunked, then tried to claim that covers “will prevent children from plugging in electrical items such as heaters and hair straighteners”. But, they also claim that their covers are “easily removed from the socket by inserting the plug you need to use” - clearly, these statements cannot both be true! One of the fundamental problems with plug-in socket covers is that they were originally designed for semi-recessed European sockets (without built in shutters). Such covers do provide protection which is not already in the socket, and they do tend to be difficult for a child to remove without the use of some sort of key because the recessed socket means that little fingers cannot grasp the cover. When ignorant suppliers started to offer covers for non-recessed sockets such as UK and US sockets they failed to realise that it is simply not possible to prevent a child from pulling a cover out. One of the tricks they employ in attempt to make it more difficult is to make the pins oversize, but that, of course, will cause permanent contact damage. Other deviations from the standard size may also make it more difficult to remove, but cause other long term damage. Not one cover on the market conforms to BS 1363 dimensions! Getting back to the subject of Clippasafe, it is worth pointing out that in 2010 they quietly modified their design, this followed FatallyFlawed's revelation that their pins were too short to allow them to stay securely in place, and that objects could be inserted directly into the live contacts via the hole in the cover. At the same time they introduced a completely misshapen ISOD which has a pointed shape in one plane, and no chamfering whatsoever in the other plane. BS 1363 requires ISODs and pins to be no more than 2mm wide at the shaped end, many sockets (including some MK, Duraplug and Marbo sockets) have earth contacts right at the faceplate which have no flare, they have a contact opening of about 3mm. The end of the Clippasafe ISOD is the full thickness of the pin, 4mm. 4mm into a 3mm gap does not go, and attempts to force it tend to result in mangled contacts. Regarding dangerous plugs, you may like to take a look at BS 1363 Plugs and Sockets |
Fatally Flawed
Quote:
According to a pathologist Liam died instantly." There is no mention of Liam's mother, only a criticism of the handyman who failed to observe the most basic precautions. We do believe that "It remains the responsibility of parents and carers to ensure that other, portable, devices which may give rise to shocks or burns are kept beyond the reach of small children.". That must be true, it is ridiculous to suggest that a plug-in socket cover can prevent children plugging things in. That concept seems to be an invention of Clippasafe to combat the fact that FatallyFlawed had revealed that their basic claim was simply untrue. What Clippasafe claim for their product, as printed on the packaging, is: "These socket covers help prevent children from inserting fingers or other items into plug sockets.") It is untrue because what prevents fingers is the size of the holes in a socket, and what prevents other objects is the shutters which have always been an integral part of a BS 1363 socket. Clippasafe, and other socket manufacturers, indulge in scaremongering to encourage the purchase of unnecessary junk. Anyway, Clippasafe, having been debunked, then tried to claim that covers “will prevent children from plugging in electrical items such as heaters and hair straighteners”. But, they also claim that their covers are “easily removed from the socket by inserting the plug you need to use” - clearly, these statements cannot both be true! One of the fundamental problems with plug-in socket covers is that they were originally designed for semi-recessed European sockets (without built in shutters). Such covers do provide protection which is not already in the socket, and they do tend to be difficult for a child to remove without the use of some sort of key because the recessed socket means that little fingers cannot grasp the cover. When ignorant suppliers started to offer covers for non-recessed sockets such as UK and US sockets they failed to realise that it is simply not possible to prevent a child from pulling a cover out. One of the tricks they employ in attempt to make it more difficult is to make the pins oversize, but that, of course, will cause permanent contact damage. Other deviations from the standard size may also make it more difficult to remove, but cause other long term damage. Not one cover on the market conforms to BS 1363 dimensions! Getting back to the subject of Clippasafe, it is worth pointing out that in 2010 they quietly modified their design, this followed FatallyFlawed's revelation that their pins were too short to allow them to stay securely in place, and that objects could be inserted directly into the live contacts via the hole in the cover. At the same time they introduced a completely misshapen ISOD which has a pointed shape in one plane, and no chamfering whatsoever in the other plane. BS 1363 requires ISODs and pins to be no more than 2mm wide at the shaped end, many sockets (including some MK, Duraplug and Marbo sockets) have earth contacts right at the faceplate which have no flare, they have a contact opening of about 3mm. The end of the Clippasafe ISOD is the full thickness of the pin, 4mm. 4mm into a 3mm gap does not go, and attempts to force it tend to result in mangled contacts. Regarding dangerous plugs, you may like to take a look at www.plugsafe.org.uk |
Fatally Flawed
"PlugSafe" wrote in message ... Quote:
site, which is: "In February 2009 Liam, 22 months old, was killed when he received an electric shock while playing with a plug and lead he had found lying in his home. The lead with moulded plug attached had been removed from an appliance that was being installed by a handyman, instead of removing the fuse and ensuring that the lead was safely disposed of the lead was left lying where Liam could find it. Liam took it to his playroom, plugged it into a socket and grabbed hold of the bare wires. According to a pathologist Liam died instantly." There is no mention of Liam's mother, only a criticism of the handyman who failed to observe the most basic precautions. We do believe that "It remains the responsibility of parents and carers to ensure that other, portable, devices which may give rise to shocks or burns are kept beyond the reach of small children.". That must be true, it is ridiculous to suggest that a plug-in socket cover can prevent children plugging things in. That concept seems to be an invention of Clippasafe to combat the fact that FatallyFlawed had revealed that their basic claim was simply untrue. What Clippasafe claim for their product, as printed on the packaging, is: "These socket covers help prevent children from inserting fingers or other items into plug sockets.") It is untrue because what prevents fingers is the size of the holes in a socket, and what prevents other objects is the shutters which have always been an integral part of a BS 1363 socket. Clippasafe, and other socket manufacturers, indulge in scaremongering to encourage the purchase of unnecessary junk. Anyway, Clippasafe, having been debunked, then tried to claim that covers “will prevent children from plugging in electrical items such as heaters and hair straighteners”. But, they also claim that their covers are “easily removed from the socket by inserting the plug you need to use” - clearly, these statements cannot both be true! One of the fundamental problems with plug-in socket covers is that they were originally designed for semi-recessed European sockets (without built in shutters). Such covers do provide protection which is not already in the socket, and they do tend to be difficult for a child to remove without the use of some sort of key because the recessed socket means that little fingers cannot grasp the cover. When ignorant suppliers started to offer covers for non-recessed sockets such as UK and US sockets they failed to realise that it is simply not possible to prevent a child from pulling a cover out. One of the tricks they employ in attempt to make it more difficult is to make the pins oversize, but that, of course, will cause permanent contact damage. Other deviations from the standard size may also make it more difficult to remove, but cause other long term damage. Not one cover on the market conforms to BS 1363 dimensions! Getting back to the subject of Clippasafe, it is worth pointing out that in 2010 they quietly modified their design, this followed FatallyFlawed's revelation that their pins were too short to allow them to stay securely in place, and that objects could be inserted directly into the live contacts via the hole in the cover. At the same time they introduced a completely misshapen ISOD which has a pointed shape in one plane, and no chamfering whatsoever in the other plane. BS 1363 requires ISODs and pins to be no more than 2mm wide at the shaped end, many sockets (including some MK, Duraplug and Marbo sockets) have earth contacts right at the faceplate which have no flare, they have a contact opening of about 3mm. The end of the Clippasafe ISOD is the full thickness of the pin, 4mm. 4mm into a 3mm gap does not go, and attempts to force it tend to result in mangled contacts. Regarding dangerous plugs, you may like to take a look at www.plugsafe.org.uk This bit is from me I have no idea why I cannot reply to your post without turning off OE Quotefix. But I can suggest where you and fatally flawed should insert a plug up your arse. |
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