Hi,

Sorry that this is off topic, but I know a lot of electricians and
other people who know electrical regulations are here!

A mean employer near here denied staff the use of fans during the hot
weather claiming that the fans could not be used until they were PAT
tested.

This seems ironic because the employer was selling the same fans to
its customers. If they were safe enough for the customers to use out
of the box, you would have thought that they were safe enough for the
employees to use too!

My employer (not the one above) sent me on a H&S course some time ago
and PAT was mentioned briefly and I thought we were told that new
appliances did not need to be tested whilst within the first year
because there was an assumption that new goods were fit for purpose.
However I don't remember exactly what was said as it was not relevant
to my role at the time.

I've just been to the HSE web site and its faqs:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/fa...ce-testing.htm

suggest that not only do new appliances not need to be tested before
use, there is no requirement for an annual check either and it implies
a common sense approach that depending on use, some equipment should
be checked more often than others.

So why do companies insist on checking annually? Is this just to cover
themselves if sued they could show regular checks were being made?

How does PAT testing work in your experience?

TIA

In article ,
Fred wrote:
Hi,

Sorry that this is off topic, but I know a lot of electricians and
other people who know electrical regulations are here!

A mean employer near here denied staff the use of fans during the hot
weather claiming that the fans could not be used until they were PAT
tested.

This seems ironic because the employer was selling the same fans to
its customers. If they were safe enough for the customers to use out
of the box, you would have thought that they were safe enough for the
employees to use too!

My employer (not the one above) sent me on a H&S course some time ago
and PAT was mentioned briefly and I thought we were told that new
appliances did not need to be tested whilst within the first year
because there was an assumption that new goods were fit for purpose.
However I don't remember exactly what was said as it was not relevant
to my role at the time.

I've just been to the HSE web site and its faqs:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/fa...ce-testing.htm

suggest that not only do new appliances not need to be tested before
use, there is no requirement for an annual check either and it implies
a common sense approach that depending on use, some equipment should
be checked more often than others.

So why do companies insist on checking annually? Is this just to cover
themselves if sued they could show regular checks were being made?

How does PAT testing work in your experience?


I bought 4 disco style lamps last year, PAT tested them on getting them out
of the box - and one failed - with no connection between the plug and the
case.

Common sense is required, unfortunately insurance companies have none. In
our theatre I have WRITTEN" policy of testing - some things at one yearly
intervals, others which are rarely moved at 5 yearly intervals (fridge),
Others in between.

TIA

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

In article ,
Fred writes:
Hi,

Sorry that this is off topic, but I know a lot of electricians and
other people who know electrical regulations are here!

A mean employer near here denied staff the use of fans during the hot
weather claiming that the fans could not be used until they were PAT
tested.

This seems ironic because the employer was selling the same fans to
its customers. If they were safe enough for the customers to use out
of the box, you would have thought that they were safe enough for the
employees to use too!

My employer (not the one above) sent me on a H&S course some time ago
and PAT was mentioned briefly and I thought we were told that new
appliances did not need to be tested whilst within the first year
because there was an assumption that new goods were fit for purpose.
However I don't remember exactly what was said as it was not relevant
to my role at the time.

I've just been to the HSE web site and its faqs:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/fa...ce-testing.htm

suggest that not only do new appliances not need to be tested before
use, there is no requirement for an annual check either and it implies
a common sense approach that depending on use, some equipment should
be checked more often than others.

So why do companies insist on checking annually? Is this just to cover
themselves if sued they could show regular checks were being made?

They've usually been sold a bogus rip-off service by a PAT-test
contractor, because the company contracting out the work doesn't
know what it's doing. There is an inherent problem with this type
of service anyway - if they only visit once a year, then that's
the only testing frequency they can implement, however inappropriate
it may be. Usually, they are both paying far more than they should,
and there will be a few appliances which are not being checked
frequently enough.

How does PAT testing work in your experience?

In one fairly small (50 people) company I worked for, I defined
the process.

There is only one other company I've worked for which, in my view,
did everything just right, and it was a 24x7 datacentre site.
It had the luxury of 24x7 engineering staff on-site capable of
performing PAT testing, as required for testing the various
vendors' maintenance engineers kit who were mostly booked to come
and work in the datacentre at night.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

For many years our TN studio never ever was tested, even though its in a
council block where every flats portable stuff was supposed to be tested, of
course it never was. Now for the l last two years, they have come around and
tested everything. Interestingly the council had a bad fire in one of its
blocks the year before, No surely not that.. grin.

Brian

--
--
From the sofa of Brian Gaff -

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Fred wrote:
Hi,

Sorry that this is off topic, but I know a lot of electricians and
other people who know electrical regulations are here!

A mean employer near here denied staff the use of fans during the hot
weather claiming that the fans could not be used until they were PAT
tested.

This seems ironic because the employer was selling the same fans to
its customers. If they were safe enough for the customers to use out
of the box, you would have thought that they were safe enough for the
employees to use too!

My employer (not the one above) sent me on a H&S course some time ago
and PAT was mentioned briefly and I thought we were told that new
appliances did not need to be tested whilst within the first year
because there was an assumption that new goods were fit for purpose.
However I don't remember exactly what was said as it was not relevant
to my role at the time.

I've just been to the HSE web site and its faqs:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/fa...ce-testing.htm

suggest that not only do new appliances not need to be tested before
use, there is no requirement for an annual check either and it implies
a common sense approach that depending on use, some equipment should
be checked more often than others.

So why do companies insist on checking annually? Is this just to cover
themselves if sued they could show regular checks were being made?

How does PAT testing work in your experience?


I bought 4 disco style lamps last year, PAT tested them on getting them
out
of the box - and one failed - with no connection between the plug and the
case.

Common sense is required, unfortunately insurance companies have none. In
our theatre I have WRITTEN" policy of testing - some things at one yearly
intervals, others which are rarely moved at 5 yearly intervals (fridge),
Others in between.

TIA

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

How does PAT testing work in your experience?

In one fairly small (50 people) company I worked for, I defined
the process.

There is only one other company I've worked for which, in my view,
did everything just right, and it was a 24x7 datacentre site.
It had the luxury of 24x7 engineering staff on-site capable of
performing PAT testing, as required for testing the various
vendors' maintenance engineers kit who were mostly booked to come
and work in the datacentre at night.


One of my clients has a reasonably large and dynamic office with, I
guess, more than 1000 occupants, and they have a contractor on site
during normal hours. Ring up the service desk and they turn up and do
your laptop, phone charger, or whatever within an hour or two.

On 28/05/2012 14:01, newshound wrote:

How does PAT testing work in your experience?

In one fairly small (50 people) company I worked for, I defined
the process.

There is only one other company I've worked for which, in my view,
did everything just right, and it was a 24x7 datacentre site.
It had the luxury of 24x7 engineering staff on-site capable of
performing PAT testing, as required for testing the various
vendors' maintenance engineers kit who were mostly booked to come
and work in the datacentre at night.


One of my clients has a reasonably large and dynamic office with, I
guess, more than 1000 occupants, and they have a contractor on site
during normal hours. Ring up the service desk and they turn up and do
your laptop, phone charger, or whatever within an hour or two.

It all came in just after one of my colleagues retired; his wife used to
own a small shop. He got the kit, did the course, and used to do other
commercial premises in the town. Potentially a nice little earner, but I
think he did it at cost.

In article m,
newshound writes:

How does PAT testing work in your experience?

In one fairly small (50 people) company I worked for, I defined
the process.

There is only one other company I've worked for which, in my view,
did everything just right, and it was a 24x7 datacentre site.
It had the luxury of 24x7 engineering staff on-site capable of
performing PAT testing, as required for testing the various
vendors' maintenance engineers kit who were mostly booked to come
and work in the datacentre at night.


One of my clients has a reasonably large and dynamic office with, I
guess, more than 1000 occupants, and they have a contractor on site
during normal hours. Ring up the service desk and they turn up and do
your laptop, phone charger, or whatever within an hour or two.

Something similar was done for office visitors, except you handed over
your laptop PSU as you were waiting to be booked in, and you got it
back just as you finished being booked in. (Couldn't take it in
past security without being tested first.)

This was probably OTT, but given that they had the infrastructure
to do it instantly without delaying you, and at no charge, you
couldn't really argue with that. It's when you have rules like this
in place and don't have the necessary infrastructure to match so
that you're pointlessly wasting time that you have a legitimate
gripe.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In message , Fred
writes
Hi,

Sorry that this is off topic, but I know a lot of electricians and
other people who know electrical regulations are here!

A mean employer near here denied staff the use of fans during the hot
weather claiming that the fans could not be used until they were PAT
tested.

This seems ironic because the employer was selling the same fans to
its customers. If they were safe enough for the customers to use out
of the box, you would have thought that they were safe enough for the
employees to use too!

My employer (not the one above) sent me on a H&S course some time ago
and PAT was mentioned briefly and I thought we were told that new
appliances did not need to be tested whilst within the first year
because there was an assumption that new goods were fit for purpose.
However I don't remember exactly what was said as it was not relevant
to my role at the time.

I've just been to the HSE web site and its faqs:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/fa...ce-testing.htm

suggest that not only do new appliances not need to be tested before
use, there is no requirement for an annual check either and it implies
a common sense approach that depending on use, some equipment should
be checked more often than others.

So why do companies insist on checking annually? Is this just to cover
themselves if sued they could show regular checks were being made?

How does PAT testing work in your experience?

TIA
IME experience your assumptions about new equipment are correct.

Internal audit came round once to check our ladders - internal charge
£50 each.
Answer - UFO I will go down the local shed and buy new ones for £30.
They never came back.
--
hugh

On May 28, 12:04*pm, Fred wrote:
Hi,

Sorry that this is off topic, but I know a lot of electricians and
other people who know electrical regulations are here!

A mean employer near here denied staff the use of fans during the hot
weather claiming that the fans could not be used until they were PAT
tested.

This seems ironic because the employer was selling the same fans to
its customers. If they were safe enough for the customers to use out
of the box, you would have thought that they were safe enough for the
employees to use too!

My employer (not the one above) sent me on a H&S course some time ago
and PAT was mentioned briefly and I thought we were told that new
appliances did not need to be tested whilst within the first year
because there was an assumption that new goods were fit for purpose.
However I don't remember exactly what was said as it was not relevant
to my role at the time.

I've just been to the HSE web site and its faqs:http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/fa...ce-testing.htm

suggest that not only do new appliances not need to be tested before
use, there is no requirement for an annual check either and it implies
a common sense approach that depending on use, some equipment should
be checked more often than others.

So why do companies insist on checking annually? Is this just to cover
themselves if sued they could show regular checks were being made?

How does PAT testing work in your experience?

TIA

I worked for the NHS. Everything was PAT tested and labelled up.
People were told not to use out of label date equipment.
I don't recall once a significant fault being detected by the PAT
test. (Though other faults were found occasionally)

The problem always was finding equipment to test as it used to get
moved around.

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Fred writes:
Hi,

There is only one other company I've worked for which, in my view,
did everything just right, and it was a 24x7 datacentre site.
It had the luxury of 24x7 engineering staff on-site capable of
performing PAT testing, as required for testing the various
vendors' maintenance engineers kit who were mostly booked to come
and work in the datacentre at night.

My Brother has got it right. He gets frequently receives phone calls at work
telling him he needs his electrical appliances PAT testing by law and then
says to the PAT tester when they arrive "now just **** off I do not need it
doing unless you can show me the law".

They usually **** off without arguing and seldom ring back.

--
Adam

In message
, harry
writes
On May 28, 12:04*pm, Fred wrote:
Hi,

Sorry that this is off topic, but I know a lot of electricians and
other people who know electrical regulations are here!

A mean employer near here denied staff the use of fans during the hot
weather claiming that the fans could not be used until they were PAT
tested.

This seems ironic because the employer was selling the same fans to
its customers. If they were safe enough for the customers to use out
of the box, you would have thought that they were safe enough for the
employees to use too!

My employer (not the one above) sent me on a H&S course some time ago
and PAT was mentioned briefly and I thought we were told that new
appliances did not need to be tested whilst within the first year
because there was an assumption that new goods were fit for purpose.
However I don't remember exactly what was said as it was not relevant
to my role at the time.

I've just been to the HSE web site and its
faqs:http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq-portable-appliance-testing.htm

suggest that not only do new appliances not need to be tested before
use, there is no requirement for an annual check either and it implies
a common sense approach that depending on use, some equipment should
be checked more often than others.

So why do companies insist on checking annually? Is this just to cover
themselves if sued they could show regular checks were being made?

How does PAT testing work in your experience?

TIA

I worked for the NHS. Everything was PAT tested and labelled up.
People were told not to use out of label date equipment.
I don't recall once a significant fault being detected by the PAT
test. (Though other faults were found occasionally)

The problem always was finding equipment to test as it used to get
moved around.
The NHS and other public bodies make interpretations of the law and
apply them to their situation to minimise risk of litigation. Those who
work in those bodies then believe that their application IS the law.

Therefore implementation within public bodies is not a reliable
indicator of what the law actually states - another example is driving a
vehicle with blue lights.
--
hugh

On May 28, 9:32*pm, hugh ] wrote:
In message
, harry
writes



On May 28, 12:04*pm, Fred wrote:
Hi,

Sorry that this is off topic, but I know a lot of electricians and
other people who know electrical regulations are here!

A mean employer near here denied staff the use of fans during the hot
weather claiming that the fans could not be used until they were PAT
tested.

This seems ironic because the employer was selling the same fans to
its customers. If they were safe enough for the customers to use out
of the box, you would have thought that they were safe enough for the
employees to use too!

My employer (not the one above) sent me on a H&S course some time ago
and PAT was mentioned briefly and I thought we were told that new
appliances did not need to be tested whilst within the first year
because there was an assumption that new goods were fit for purpose.
However I don't remember exactly what was said as it was not relevant
to my role at the time.

I've just been to the HSE web site and its
faqs:http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq-portable-appliance-testing.htm

suggest that not only do new appliances not need to be tested before
use, there is no requirement for an annual check either and it implies
a common sense approach that depending on use, some equipment should
be checked more often than others.

So why do companies insist on checking annually? Is this just to cover
themselves if sued they could show regular checks were being made?

How does PAT testing work in your experience?

TIA

I worked for the NHS. Everything was PAT tested and labelled up.
People were told not to use out of label date equipment.
I don't recall once a significant fault being detected by the PAT
test. (Though other faults were found occasionally)

The problem always was finding equipment to test as it used to get
moved around.

The NHS and other public bodies make interpretations of the law and
apply them to their situation to minimise risk of litigation. Those who
work in those bodies then believe that their application IS the law.

Therefore implementation within public bodies is not a reliable
indicator of what the law actually states - another example is driving a
vehicle with blue lights.


True.

On Mon, 28 May 2012 19:42:49 +0100, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Fred writes:
Hi,

There is only one other company I've worked for which, in my view,
did everything just right, and it was a 24x7 datacentre site.
It had the luxury of 24x7 engineering staff on-site capable of
performing PAT testing, as required for testing the various
vendors' maintenance engineers kit who were mostly booked to come
and work in the datacentre at night.

My Brother has got it right. He gets frequently receives phone calls at work
telling him he needs his electrical appliances PAT testing by law and then
says to the PAT tester when they arrive "now just **** off I do not need it
doing unless you can show me the law".

They usually **** off without arguing and seldom ring back.

They can be dashed useful some times.

Our external PAT tester routinly quotes an earth bond test at 1kV. Now
1kV into half an Ohm or less is a pretty impressive test.

Sarcasm over

Although not strictly neccessary as far as safety goes, they will also
pass none working appliances.

I have voiced my concerns, but alas the PAT test is in place to allow
our site staff to satisfy the gormless health and safety ******* who
cannot see beyond a "do not use" label.

Consequently as long as a bit of paper is issued "everyone" is happy!!


HN

On Mon, 28 May 2012 10:18:08 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On May 28, 12:04*pm, Fred wrote:
Hi,

Sorry that this is off topic, but I know a lot of electricians and
other people who know electrical regulations are here!

A mean employer near here denied staff the use of fans during the hot
weather claiming that the fans could not be used until they were PAT
tested.

This seems ironic because the employer was selling the same fans to
its customers. If they were safe enough for the customers to use out
of the box, you would have thought that they were safe enough for the
employees to use too!

My employer (not the one above) sent me on a H&S course some time ago
and PAT was mentioned briefly and I thought we were told that new
appliances did not need to be tested whilst within the first year
because there was an assumption that new goods were fit for purpose.
However I don't remember exactly what was said as it was not relevant
to my role at the time.

I've just been to the HSE web site and its faqs:http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/fa...ce-testing.htm

suggest that not only do new appliances not need to be tested before
use, there is no requirement for an annual check either and it implies
a common sense approach that depending on use, some equipment should
be checked more often than others.

So why do companies insist on checking annually? Is this just to cover
themselves if sued they could show regular checks were being made?

How does PAT testing work in your experience?

TIA

I worked for the NHS. Everything was PAT tested and labelled up.
People were told not to use out of label date equipment.
I don't recall once a significant fault being detected by the PAT
test. (Though other faults were found occasionally)

The problem always was finding equipment to test as it used to get
moved around.

PAT testing is a waste of time. An earth bond test on metal clad
appliances is useful, but who gives a damn if the earth leakage is a
bit up. [Assuming the house/ factory wiring is kosher.

Double insulated appliances are never tested properly. Never once have
I seen a tester get the Baco Foil out!


HN

In article ,
H. Neary writes:

Although not strictly neccessary as far as safety goes, they will also
pass none working appliances.

There's no requirement that an appliance is working. The person
doing the PAT test might also do a functional test, but may not
be qualified to do so, and it may be impossible in some cases.

I have voiced my concerns, but alas the PAT test is in place to allow
our site staff to satisfy the gormless health and safety ******* who
cannot see beyond a "do not use" label.

Consequently as long as a bit of paper is issued "everyone" is happy!!

OTOH, an appliance which has nothing wrong with it at all can fail
a PAT test, if it's not appropriate for the intended use. For example,
if you have been given a hot air paint stripper to dry off your hair
after working in outdoors in the rain and told to hold it at arm's
length, that would be a PAT test failure. (Hence the need to test the
appliance at point of use, and not having it brought to you.)

A more likely scenario would be an office full of people using a
regular cheap (sub-£10) kettle for their tea/coffee, such that
it's running pretty continuously, something a cheap domestic kettle
isn't designed for. You might either fail it as unsuitable for the
situation in which it's being used, or you might pass it, but with
the next PAT test due in 4 weeks. Obviously, a water boiler more
appropriate for the duty cycle is required, which can therefore
have a PAT test cycle which is not so excessive, and will probably
work out cheaper in the long run, and certainly safer.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
H. Neary writes:

A more likely scenario would be an office full of people using a
regular cheap (sub-£10) kettle for their tea/coffee, such that
it's running pretty continuously, something a cheap domestic kettle
isn't designed for.

There was not much chance of the kettle breaking at todays jobs-(

Only 1 out of 8 customers offered, and the one that did offer looked like I
would die of food poisoning if I drank his tea.

--
Adam

On 30/05/2012 21:08, H. Neary wrote:


PAT testing is a waste of time. An earth bond test on metal clad
appliances is useful, but who gives a damn if the earth leakage is a
bit up. [Assuming the house/ factory wiring is kosher.

Double insulated appliances are never tested properly. Never once have
I seen a tester get the Baco Foil out!


Are you supposed to wrap the item in foil to test it then!?


--
Toby...
Remove pants to reply

On Wed, 30 May 2012 21:04:36 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
H. Neary writes:

Although not strictly neccessary as far as safety goes, they will also
pass none working appliances.

There's no requirement that an appliance is working. The person
doing the PAT test might also do a functional test, but may not
be qualified to do so, and it may be impossible in some cases.

I have voiced my concerns, but alas the PAT test is in place to allow
our site staff to satisfy the gormless health and safety ******* who
cannot see beyond a "do not use" label.

Consequently as long as a bit of paper is issued "everyone" is happy!!

OTOH, an appliance which has nothing wrong with it at all can fail
a PAT test, if it's not appropriate for the intended use. For example,
if you have been given a hot air paint stripper to dry off your hair
after working in outdoors in the rain and told to hold it at arm's
length, that would be a PAT test failure. (Hence the need to test the
appliance at point of use, and not having it brought to you.)

A more likely scenario would be an office full of people using a
regular cheap (sub-£10) kettle for their tea/coffee, such that
it's running pretty continuously, something a cheap domestic kettle
isn't designed for. You might either fail it as unsuitable for the
situation in which it's being used, or you might pass it, but with
the next PAT test due in 4 weeks. Obviously, a water boiler more
appropriate for the duty cycle is required, which can therefore
have a PAT test cycle which is not so excessive, and will probably
work out cheaper in the long run, and certainly safer.

The cheap office kettle in constant use will pass most times. The
element that is not in use too often wil absorb water and fail.

Common sense solution, run the thing for a few minutes. MOD solution
[When I worked for them] was to fail the device and buy another unit
that would fail the next PAT test.

Incidentally office kettles do not fail very often. Just try snipping
a plug or two some morning. The red writing on the "failed" sticker is
easily obscured with PAT testers blood

HN

On Wed, 30 May 2012 22:20:14 +0100, Toby
wrote:

On 30/05/2012 21:08, H. Neary wrote:


PAT testing is a waste of time. An earth bond test on metal clad
appliances is useful, but who gives a damn if the earth leakage is a
bit up. [Assuming the house/ factory wiring is kosher.

Double insulated appliances are never tested properly. Never once have
I seen a tester get the Baco Foil out!


Are you supposed to wrap the item in foil to test it then!?

Yes

Think about it. On a double insulated appliance how else can you test
the integrity of the insulation?

HN

On 30/05/2012 22:28, H. Neary wrote:

Double insulated appliances are never tested properly. Never once have
I seen a tester get the Baco Foil out!


Are you supposed to wrap the item in foil to test it then!?

Yes

Think about it. On a double insulated appliance how else can you test
the integrity of the insulation?


IET CoP?

--
Adrian C

In article ,
H. Neary writes:
On Wed, 30 May 2012 21:04:36 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

A more likely scenario would be an office full of people using a
regular cheap (sub-£10) kettle for their tea/coffee, such that
it's running pretty continuously, something a cheap domestic kettle
isn't designed for. You might either fail it as unsuitable for the
situation in which it's being used, or you might pass it, but with
the next PAT test due in 4 weeks. Obviously, a water boiler more
appropriate for the duty cycle is required, which can therefore
have a PAT test cycle which is not so excessive, and will probably
work out cheaper in the long run, and certainly safer.

The cheap office kettle in constant use will pass most times. The
element that is not in use too often wil absorb water and fail.

Failure tends to be because the thing wears out quickly, e.g. starts
leaking water, connector starts overheating, fails to switch off,
some part of the case breaks, lid goes missing, etc.

An [electrically] leaking element is not an instant failure, it's
only a failure if it doesn't dry out enough when operated for a
while.

Common sense solution, run the thing for a few minutes.

That's what the guidelines tell you to do anyway in this case.

MOD solution
[When I worked for them] was to fail the device and buy another unit
that would fail the next PAT test.

Incidentally office kettles do not fail very often. Just try snipping
a plug or two some morning. The red writing on the "failed" sticker is
easily obscured with PAT testers blood

HN

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

wrote:


PAT testing is a waste of time. An earth bond test on metal clad
appliances is useful, but who gives a damn if the earth leakage is a
bit up. [Assuming the house/ factory wiring is kosher.

Don't forget that PAT includes a visual inspection of lead and plug - the
two more likely to fail parts.

This is quite inspectable by the user, but they seldom do, so PAT serves a
purpose.

Then again, users are also very good at hiding that 1970's fan heater when
the bloke comes round.

Double insulated appliances are never tested properly. Never once have
I seen a tester get the Baco Foil out!


HN
--
Tim Watts

On 2012-05-30, ARWadsworth wrote:

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
H. Neary writes:

A more likely scenario would be an office full of people using a
regular cheap (sub-£10) kettle for their tea/coffee, such that
it's running pretty continuously, something a cheap domestic kettle
isn't designed for.

There was not much chance of the kettle breaking at todays jobs-(

Only 1 out of 8 customers offered, and the one that did offer looked like I
would die of food poisoning if I drank his tea.


Outrageous!

Anyway, everybody knows builders &c. work more efficiently if you
supply them with strong tea & biscuits. Shepherd Mead documented this
(from a foreigner's perspective) in 1964.

On 5/31/2012 7:21 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2012-05-30, ARWadsworth wrote:

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In ,
H. writes:

A more likely scenario would be an office full of people using a
regular cheap (sub-£10) kettle for their tea/coffee, such that
it's running pretty continuously, something a cheap domestic kettle
isn't designed for.

There was not much chance of the kettle breaking at todays jobs-(

Only 1 out of 8 customers offered, and the one that did offer looked like I
would die of food poisoning if I drank his tea.


Outrageous!

Anyway, everybody knows builders&c. work more efficiently if you
supply them with strong tea& biscuits. Shepherd Mead documented this
(from a foreigner's perspective) in 1964.

The last set of workmen I had in, preferred (properly brewed) coffee and
home baked cakes.

On 2012-05-31, S Viemeister wrote:

On 5/31/2012 7:21 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2012-05-30, ARWadsworth wrote:

There was not much chance of the kettle breaking at todays jobs-(

Only 1 out of 8 customers offered, and the one that did offer looked like I
would die of food poisoning if I drank his tea.


Outrageous!

Anyway, everybody knows builders&c. work more efficiently if you
supply them with strong tea& biscuits. Shepherd Mead documented this
(from a foreigner's perspective) in 1964.

The last set of workmen I had in, preferred (properly brewed) coffee and
home baked cakes.

True, & the gasfitter I hired recently only wanted coffee. But the
general principle!!!

In message , Adam Funk
writes
On 2012-05-31, S Viemeister wrote:

On 5/31/2012 7:21 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2012-05-30, ARWadsworth wrote:

There was not much chance of the kettle breaking at todays jobs-(

Only 1 out of 8 customers offered, and the one that did offer looked like I
would die of food poisoning if I drank his tea.


Outrageous!

Anyway, everybody knows builders&c. work more efficiently if you
supply them with strong tea& biscuits. Shepherd Mead documented this
(from a foreigner's perspective) in 1964.

The last set of workmen I had in, preferred (properly brewed) coffee and
home baked cakes.

True, & the gasfitter I hired recently only wanted coffee. But the
general principle!!!
Give em double strength extra caffeine, and just watch them go!!
--
hugh

"S Viemeister" wrote in message ...

On 5/31/2012 7:21 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2012-05-30, ARWadsworth wrote:

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In ,
H. writes:

A more likely scenario would be an office full of people using a
regular cheap (sub-£10) kettle for their tea/coffee, such that
it's running pretty continuously, something a cheap domestic kettle
isn't designed for.

There was not much chance of the kettle breaking at todays jobs-(

Only 1 out of 8 customers offered, and the one that did offer looked like
I
would die of food poisoning if I drank his tea.


Outrageous!

Anyway, everybody knows builders&c. work more efficiently if you
supply them with strong tea& biscuits. Shepherd Mead documented this
(from a foreigner's perspective) in 1964.

I prefer the local Blacksmiths tea, the same as domestic tea but with
mystery black bits :-)

Mike

On 2012-05-31, Muddymike wrote:

I prefer the local Blacksmiths tea, the same as domestic tea but with
mystery black bits :-)

"fortified with iron"

Fred wrote:

I've just been to the HSE web site and its faqs:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/fa...ce-testing.htm

suggest that not only do new appliances not need to be tested before
use, there is no requirement for an annual check either and it implies
a common sense approach that depending on use, some equipment should
be checked more often than others.

What the HSE actually encourages is for the user to check before each use.
Which will actually tend to pick up problems.

So why do companies insist on checking annually? Is this just to cover
themselves if sued they could show regular checks were being made?

It basically appears to be a money making scheme

How does PAT testing work in your experience?

IME it dosn't. At best it's an expensive waste of time.

In article ,
Mark Evans wrote:
Fred wrote:

I've just been to the HSE web site and its faqs:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/fa...ce-testing.htm

suggest that not only do new appliances not need to be tested before
use, there is no requirement for an annual check either and it implies
a common sense approach that depending on use, some equipment should
be checked more often than others.

What the HSE actually encourages is for the user to check before each use.
Which will actually tend to pick up problems.

So why do companies insist on checking annually? Is this just to cover
themselves if sued they could show regular checks were being made?

It basically appears to be a money making scheme

How does PAT testing work in your experience?

IME it dosn't. At best it's an expensive waste of time.

IME it has shown up faults that might have passed unnoticed. Like people
taking off mains plug and redfitting it incorrectly - looked fine
externally.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article m,
newshound writes:

One of my clients has a reasonably large and dynamic office with, I
guess, more than 1000 occupants, and they have a contractor on site
during normal hours. Ring up the service desk and they turn up and do
your laptop, phone charger, or whatever within an hour or two.

Something similar was done for office visitors, except you handed over
your laptop PSU as you were waiting to be booked in, and you got it
back just as you finished being booked in. (Couldn't take it in
past security without being tested first.)

This was probably OTT, but given that they had the infrastructure
to do it instantly without delaying you, and at no charge, you
couldn't really argue with that. It's when you have rules like this

Assuming that the device was not damaged by inappropriate testing.
In many cases only the mains lead could possibly need any kind of
such testing in the first place. Even PSUs with IEC C6 and C14 don't
always connect the earth pin.

in place and don't have the necessary infrastructure to match so
that you're pointlessly wasting time that you have a legitimate
gripe.

Do they have anyone checking for kettles being used with multi-way
extensions?

charles wrote:
In article ,
Mark Evans wrote:
Fred wrote:

I've just been to the HSE web site and its faqs:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/fa...ce-testing.htm

suggest that not only do new appliances not need to be tested before
use, there is no requirement for an annual check either and it implies
a common sense approach that depending on use, some equipment should
be checked more often than others.

What the HSE actually encourages is for the user to check before each use.
Which will actually tend to pick up problems.

So why do companies insist on checking annually? Is this just to cover
themselves if sued they could show regular checks were being made?

It basically appears to be a money making scheme

How does PAT testing work in your experience?

IME it dosn't. At best it's an expensive waste of time.

IME it has shown up faults that might have passed unnoticed. Like people
taking off mains plug and redfitting it incorrectly - looked fine
externally.

I've seen several cases of unsafe stuff given green stickers. Typically loose
cable clamps but in one case a rewirable plug which wasn't clamped at all.
Where contractors are being paid by device there's obviously a huge temptation
to just plaster stickers everywhere. Regardless of if tests have been carried
out in the first place. Even if they can be carried out. e.g. double insulated
and SELV devices. (I've seen stickers appear on USB devices.)