Sainsbury's online price freeze 2013

There was talk the other day of the confusing T&C of the power
companies. This is my latest offering from the 'Big Switch'.

"Fixed prices until 30th June 2013 and benefit from a guaranteed minimum
8.9% discount to Sainsbury's standard rates as of 12/1/2012
No Cancellation fees
Electricity customers paying by Direct Debit will receive a discount off
their Tier 2 consumption charges (and night rates where applicable) of
1.429 p/kWh up to a maximum of £10 per quarter (or £3.33 per month for
monthly billing customers)
Gas customers paying by Direct Debit will receive a discount off their
Tier 2 consumption charges of 0.196 p/kWh, up to a maximum of £65.00 per
year (or £5.42 per month for monthly billing customers)
A dual fuel discount 0.704 p/kWh off quarterly electricity Tier 2 rates
(and night rates where applicable) up to a maximum of £15.00 per year
(or £1.25 per month for monthly billing customers) is available"

Seriously, I can't be bothered to make the detailed comparison between
all the difference versions of this nonsense. It's high time OFGEM
standardised the charge bands across the entire industry.

Andy C

On Wed, 16 May 2012 06:53:44 +0100, Andy Cap wrote:

Seriously, I can't be bothered to make the detailed comparison between
all the difference versions of this nonsense.

It ought to be presented in a table rather than spelt out long hand.
They don't make is simple though by using qtr(mth) or yr(mth).

It's high time OFGEM standardised the charge bands across the entire
industry.

But that would mean no "competion in the market place". May as well
nationalise the electricty supply. In some ways nationalisation might
not be a bad thing for these essential infrastructure services. If
not nationalised then non-profit. Just got a lecky bill that has a
pie chart breakdown of the "costs", 5% is "supply business profit".
ie cash for the shareholders.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 16/05/12 08:45, Dave Liquorice wrote:

It's high time OFGEM standardised the charge bands across the entire
industry.

But that would mean no "competion in the market place". May as well
nationalise the electricty supply. In some ways nationalisation might
not be a bad thing for these essential infrastructure services. If
not nationalised then non-profit. Just got a lecky bill that has a
pie chart breakdown of the "costs", 5% is "supply business profit".
ie cash for the shareholders.


I don't mean standard charges but the way the charges are laid out. Yes
a table would be fine.

i.e. Either a standing charge, then with a fixed unit price

or Primary unit prices + secondary unit price with a standardised
changeover point.

There should be one version of this for monthly DD and one for quarterly.

There could still be a final discount for taking both but I suspect it
wouldn't end up costing more if that was banned as well and you were
completely free to choose each supplier separately.

The present confusion goes against fair competition, because it is
explicitly designed to prevent fair comparison.

Andy C

Dave Liquorice :
On Wed, 16 May 2012 06:53:44 +0100, Andy Cap wrote:

It's high time OFGEM standardised the charge bands across the entire
industry.

But that would mean no "competion in the market place".

Au contraire, standard charge bands would make it easy for us to compare
suppliers, so it would encourage competition. Which is why the suppliers
are heading relentlessly in the opposite direction. Google "confusion
marketing" for more information and examples.

--
Mike Barnes

On Wed, 16 May 2012 12:12:54 +0100, Mike Barnes wrote:

It's high time OFGEM standardised the charge bands across the
entire
industry.

But that would mean no "competion in the market place".

Au contraire, standard charge bands would make it easy for us to compare
suppliers, so it would encourage competition. Which is why the suppliers
are heading relentlessly in the opposite direction. Google "confusion
marketing" for more information and examples.

You are looking at it from the consumers POV not the corporate
marketing POV. How can the marketing department justify their
existance unless they can show they are being "innovative" and
offering more "choice" by inventing new tariffs, retiring old ones,
renaming others, every few weeks? The of course the regulator needs a
measure on consumer "choice" as well to ensure that there is
"competition".

I agree though that Ofgem ought to step in and make the companies
present the basic tariff information in simple and clear manner with
no marketing bull**** that is easy to obtain either by post or
website. Even better if they insisted in a standardised format.

Example got a "dancing turd" junk mail the other day promoting some
suppliers "low-carbon" (mostly nuke sourced) tariff. No where on it
does it give the cost per unit, the *only* bit of information I need
to make a decision as to see if it's worth looking into. But not
surprised, after going off to look, 14.7p/unit v 9.5p/unit on nPower
Go Fix 11 that we currently have.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 16/05/12 13:27, Dave Liquorice wrote:
But not
surprised, after going off to look, 14.7p/unit v 9.5p/unit on nPower
Go Fix 11 that we currently have.


That's what I've just signed up to ! ;-)


I've just emailed OFGEM and they point you at this...

http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/CONSUMERS/Pa...rgyprices.aspx

Short extract here, but there's loads more...

The Retail Market Review (RMR)
Our current Retail Market Review identified several areas of concern
that suggested the market was not working as it should. To address this
we have (among other things):
consulted on radical proposals to simplify and reduce the number of
standard tariffs to help customers compare deals more easily
proposed that suppliers auction off up to 20% of the power they generate
to help other suppliers enter the market


I bet it wont go as far as I'd like though ! :-{

Andy C

"Andy Cap" wrote in message
o.uk...
Sainsbury's online price freeze 2013

There was talk the other day of the confusing T&C of the power companies.
This is my latest offering from the 'Big Switch'.

"Fixed prices until 30th June 2013 and benefit from a guaranteed minimum
8.9% discount to Sainsbury's standard rates as of 12/1/2012
No Cancellation fees
Electricity customers paying by Direct Debit will receive a discount off
their Tier 2 consumption charges (and night rates where applicable) of
1.429 p/kWh up to a maximum of £10 per quarter (or £3.33 per month for
monthly billing customers)
Gas customers paying by Direct Debit will receive a discount off their
Tier 2 consumption charges of 0.196 p/kWh, up to a maximum of £65.00 per
year (or £5.42 per month for monthly billing customers)
A dual fuel discount 0.704 p/kWh off quarterly electricity Tier 2 rates
(and night rates where applicable) up to a maximum of £15.00 per year (or
£1.25 per month for monthly billing customers) is available"

Seriously, I can't be bothered to make the detailed comparison between all
the difference versions of this nonsense. It's high time OFGEM
standardised the charge bands across the entire industry.

It looks pretty simple to me.
it just tells you how much cheaper than "the standard" offering it is.
In my case it is £10 per quarter on the electricity and I don't recall the
gas usage.

However you do need to know what their standard tariff is.

On 16/05/2012 13:38, Andy Cap wrote:
On 16/05/12 13:27, Dave Liquorice wrote:
But not
surprised, after going off to look, 14.7p/unit v 9.5p/unit on nPower
Go Fix 11 that we currently have.

That's what I've just signed up to ! ;-)

I've just emailed OFGEM and they point you at this...

http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/CONSUMERS/Pa...rgyprices.aspx

Short extract here, but there's loads more...

The Retail Market Review (RMR)
Our current Retail Market Review identified several areas of concern
that suggested the market was not working as it should. To address this
we have (among other things):
consulted on radical proposals to simplify and reduce the number of
standard tariffs to help customers compare deals more easily
proposed that suppliers auction off up to 20% of the power they generate
to help other suppliers enter the market

Don't hold your breath waiting for them to get around to it.

The whole thing is heavily rigged against those of us that do not have
the option of a dual fuel tariff and those afraid to switch from their
original supplier - mostly the elderly and infirm.

I suppose we do have the option of mains gas in theory but paying £500k
or more to run a gas into this rural village is quite off putting. YMMV

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 16/05/12 13:49, dennis@home wrote:
It looks pretty simple to me.
it just tells you how much cheaper than "the standard" offering it is.
In my case it is £10 per quarter on the electricity and I don't recall
the gas usage.

However you do need to know what their standard tariff is.

...but to make a meaningful comparison you have to do the sums for EVERY
possible market offering. That's the issue.

I agree with Martin Brown too, that the structure is loaded against
those without gas.

Andy C

On 16/05/2012 06:53, Andy Cap wrote:


There was talk the other day of the confusing T&C of the power
companies. This is my latest offering from the 'Big Switch'.

Massive snip

Has anyone been offered any worthwhile savings by 'Big Switch'?

The best they can offer me is a saving of FIVE QUID a year (on a £1500
bill) if I switch to a different tariff with my *existing* supplier
(Scottish Power).

Their auction winner comes out *dearer* than my current deal!

It might just be worth switching tariff since the new one is guaranteed
until August 2013 - whereas the existing one comes to an end in
September this year. Anyone got a crystal ball which tells them what
energy prices will do in the next 18 months? I know that the general
trend is *upwards*, but there have been one or two recent cuts and my
current deal is "capped" - and so won't go up but could come down if
prices fall - whereas I believe the alternative tariff is fixed, so will
stay put if prices in general come down.

What a nightmare!
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

Dave Liquorice :
Example got a "dancing turd" junk mail the other day

A what?

--
Mike Barnes

On Wed, 16 May 2012 18:13:05 +0100, Mike Barnes wrote:

Example got a "dancing turd" junk mail the other day

A what?

See if you can find the current EDF Energy TV ads...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice :
On Wed, 16 May 2012 18:13:05 +0100, Mike Barnes wrote:

Example got a "dancing turd" junk mail the other day

A what?

See if you can find the current EDF Energy TV ads...

Ah. Don't watch TV. Assumed it was something in the e-mail.

--
Mike Barnes

On Wed, 16 May 2012 19:27:15 +0100, Mike Barnes wrote:

Dave Liquorice :
On Wed, 16 May 2012 18:13:05 +0100, Mike Barnes wrote:

Example got a "dancing turd" junk mail the other day

A what?

See if you can find the current EDF Energy TV ads...

Ah. Don't watch TV. Assumed it was something in the e-mail.

Junk mail ie a bit of paper not junk e-mail... I only see two or
three junk emails/month so forget that some people get tens a day...

Search YouTube for "edf energy advert" and it's bound to pop up. I
think the dancing turd is supposed to be sylised owl but it didn't
look like that to my daughter, she used the word "poo" though. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 16 May 2012 03:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Owain
wrote:

On May 16, 8:45*am, "Dave Liquorice" wrote:
... Just got a lecky bill that has a
pie chart breakdown of the "costs", 5% is "supply business profit".
ie cash for the shareholders.

Better 5% "supply business profit" than 20% "public sector
inefficiency and wastage"

And the lights go out a lot less than they did in the 1970s too.

This is just the lull before the storm. The liberalised UK energy
market was doomed to fail right from the start as there is zero
incentive to invest long term*

* long term means more than 5 minutes, or 5 years.

The former being 60 times the attention span of politicians that fail
to grasp the seriousness of the problem, the latter being the maximum
period before an investor wants 200% of capital invested to be
returned and the point at which the plant, built to only just do the
job, is quite frankly knackered.. Meanwhile 45 year old coal fired
plant and a dwindling number of nuclear stations keep the lights on.

In the 70's we had a thriving generation, transmission and
distribution manufacturing sector that exported quality equipment to
the world. Now we import crap that satisfies the money men and ****
all else.


--

The Other Mike wrote
Owain wrote
Dave Liquorice wrote

... Just got a lecky bill that has a pie chart breakdown of the
"costs", 5% is "supply business profit".ie cash for the shareholders.

Better 5% "supply business profit" than 20%
"public sector inefficiency and wastage"

And the lights go out a lot less than they did in the 1970s too.

This is just the lull before the storm.

I doubt it.

The liberalised UK energy market was doomed to fail right
from the start as there is zero incentive to invest long term*

The most that might happen is that you
end up buying electricity from the frogs
who do have a clue on that stuff.

* long term means more than 5 minutes, or 5 years.

The former being 60 times the attention span of politicians that fail
to grasp the seriousness of the problem, the latter being the maximum
period before an investor wants 200% of capital invested to be
returned and the point at which the plant, built to only just do the
job, is quite frankly knackered.. Meanwhile 45 year old coal fired
plant and a dwindling number of nuclear stations keep the lights on.

And imports from France.

Bet they will be happy to do what you lot wont bother with.

In the 70's we had a thriving generation, transmission and distribution
manufacturing sector that exported quality equipment to the world.

And that was never going to do any better than consumer products did.

Now we import crap that satisfies the money men and **** all else.

That was going to happen with the generation, transmission
and distribution manufacturing sector anyway when they
could get it MUCH cheaper from china.

The world's moved on.

The Other Mike wrote:
On Wed, 16 May 2012 03:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Owain
wrote:

On May 16, 8:45 am, "Dave Liquorice" wrote:
... Just got a lecky bill that has a
pie chart breakdown of the "costs", 5% is "supply business profit".
ie cash for the shareholders.
Better 5% "supply business profit" than 20% "public sector
inefficiency and wastage"

And the lights go out a lot less than they did in the 1970s too.

This is just the lull before the storm. The liberalised UK energy
market was doomed to fail right from the start as there is zero
incentive to invest long term*

* long term means more than 5 minutes, or 5 years.

The former being 60 times the attention span of politicians that fail
to grasp the seriousness of the problem, the latter being the maximum
period before an investor wants 200% of capital invested to be
returned and the point at which the plant, built to only just do the
job, is quite frankly knackered.. Meanwhile 45 year old coal fired
plant and a dwindling number of nuclear stations keep the lights on.


That is simply not true and in fact was being addressed by a government
initiative till the bloody EU got in the way.


In the 70's we had a thriving generation, transmission and
distribution manufacturing sector that exported quality equipment to
the world. Now we import crap that satisfies the money men and ****
all else.

Except of course banking. We exported that all over the world






--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

Dave Liquorice :
On Wed, 16 May 2012 19:27:15 +0100, Mike Barnes wrote:

Dave Liquorice :
On Wed, 16 May 2012 18:13:05 +0100, Mike Barnes wrote:

Example got a "dancing turd" junk mail the other day

A what?

See if you can find the current EDF Energy TV ads...

Ah. Don't watch TV. Assumed it was something in the e-mail.

Junk mail ie a bit of paper not junk e-mail... I only see two or
three junk emails/month so forget that some people get tens a day...

You see much more spam than I do, and more junk mail. I was fooled by
your reference to "dancing", which conjured up an image of an animated
gif.

Search YouTube for "edf energy advert" and it's bound to pop up.

Thanks, but I think I've got getter things to do than expose myself to
crap like that. Even dancing crap.

--
Mike Barnes

On Thu, 17 May 2012 00:53:54 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

The Other Mike wrote:
On Wed, 16 May 2012 03:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Owain
wrote:

On May 16, 8:45 am, "Dave Liquorice" wrote:
... Just got a lecky bill that has a
pie chart breakdown of the "costs", 5% is "supply business profit".
ie cash for the shareholders.
Better 5% "supply business profit" than 20% "public sector
inefficiency and wastage"

And the lights go out a lot less than they did in the 1970s too.

This is just the lull before the storm. The liberalised UK energy
market was doomed to fail right from the start as there is zero
incentive to invest long term*

* long term means more than 5 minutes, or 5 years.

The former being 60 times the attention span of politicians that fail
to grasp the seriousness of the problem, the latter being the maximum
period before an investor wants 200% of capital invested to be
returned and the point at which the plant, built to only just do the
job, is quite frankly knackered.. Meanwhile 45 year old coal fired
plant and a dwindling number of nuclear stations keep the lights on.


That is simply not true and in fact was being addressed by a government
initiative till the bloody EU got in the way.


Not true? all of the 500 /660MW coal fired sites below were generating
at very high load factors this last winter

Site - Years since Commissioning - Output

Aberthaw 46 1.5GW
Cottam 43 2GW
Drax (first half) 38 2GW
Drax (second half) 26 2GW
Eggborough 45 2GW
Ferrybridge C 46 2GW
Fiddlers Ferry 41 2GW
Kingsnorth 39 2GW
Ratcliffe 44 2GW
Rugeley 42 1GW
West Burton 44 2GW

(Commissioning date being defined as first unit full commercial load
to grid, and control being handed over from construction to
operations)

Exclude the second half of Drax and that is 42.8 years average

That is a total of 20.5GW or about 1/4 of the total declared
generation capacity with some even older coal generation capacity in
Wales and Scotland, Uskmouth for instance is 53 years old, albeit
heavily refurbished

Meanwhile heap of **** gas fired stations built in the 90's are
decommissioned and being sold off for scrap now they have ****ed away
significant and accessible UK gas reserves, they then build more in
their place to burn imported gas

Now that is sorted out I have to ask, what government initiative?


--