Is any one still installing gravity hot water systems in Britain?
They are becoming non existent in Australia as most new and replacement
systems are mains pressure.

F Murtz :
Is any one still installing gravity hot water systems in Britain?
They are becoming non existent in Australia as most new and replacement
systems are mains pressure.

I'd replace our HW system with mains pressure if the mains pressure was
good enough. But I get better flow by pumping the contents of the tank
in the loft.

--
Mike Barnes

On Wednesday, May 9, 2012 12:49:03 AM UTC+1, F Murtz wrote:
Is any one still installing gravity hot water systems in Britain?
They are becoming non existent in Australia as most new and replacement
systems are mains pressure.

Yes, they have a lot of advantages. Most of the existing water distribution systems was installed with 1/2" service pipes to fill loft tanks and it is not certain that you will get an adequate flow rate for a mains pressure system. The water suppliers only have to provide 1 bar pressure; they have been reducing the supply pressure to reduce mains leakage rates in some areas.

In article . com,
F Murtz writes:
Is any one still installing gravity hot water systems in Britain?
They are becoming non existent in Australia as most new and replacement
systems are mains pressure.

Probably not in homes, but stored water systems are essential for
businesses of any size, as otherwise failure of incoming supply
for more than a few hours means you have to close the building down.
I have worked in a 24x7 data centre where our water supply did fail,
and the loft tanks meant we could stay open by having a tanker come
and refill them once a day. A smaller business next door had to close
their premises (no tanks I guess - their building didn't have a loft),
and they got a skelton staff back in a couple of days later once they
had a portaloo installed in their car park.

For the same reason, I'm quite pleased I do have 50 gallons stored in
my loft, particularly when there was talk a month back of our drought
possibly resulting in standpipes in the street (since when, it hasn't
stopped raining).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 09/05/2012 00:49, F Murtz wrote:
Is any one still installing gravity hot water systems in Britain?
They are becoming non existent in Australia as most new and replacement
systems are mains pressure.


I didn't ... it is still the way for budget installs, although many opt
for Combi as it's cheaper again.

I went for mains pressure HW system via a Thermal Store.

Has benefit of mains pressure Hot Water at very high flow rates, as it's
not dependent on boiler firing for HW it avoids short inefficient boiler
cycles.

On Wed, 09 May 2012 09:49:03 +1000, F Murtz
wrote:

Is any one still installing gravity hot water systems in Britain?

Plenty.
I've justinstalled one in my place, owing to the unreliability of the
public supply. If I were in town, it might be a different matter.

Andrew Gabriel wrote
F Murtz writes

Is any one still installing gravity hot water systems in Britain?
They are becoming non existent in Australia as most new and
replacement systems are mains pressure.

Probably not in homes, but stored water
systems are essential for businesses of any size,

No they arent. Ours manage fine without them.

as otherwise failure of incoming supply for more than
a few hours means you have to close the building down.

No you don't.

I have worked in a 24x7 data centre where our water
supply did fail, and the loft tanks meant we could stay
open by having a tanker come and refill them once a day.

No reason why you cant have a tanker fill a temporary tank
that often. And I cant recall any time any business has ever
had to shut down due to the lack of a water supply except in a
massive flood where they have a problem with the flood anyway.

A smaller business next door had to close their premises
(no tanks I guess - their building didn't have a loft), and
they got a skelton staff back in a couple of days later
once they had a portaloo installed in their car park.

No reason why they couldn't have had a temporary tank in the car park too.

For the same reason, I'm quite pleased I do have 50 gallons
stored in my loft, particularly when there was talk a month
back of our drought possibly resulting in standpipes in the
street (since when, it hasn't stopped raining).

We havent even needed loft tanks for that either.

We have had a few towns so desperate for water because
the reservoir quite literally ran dry. But we just had water
restrictions that ensured that it never got completely dry and
when that happened anyway, used tanker to supply the water
from somewhere else. A 50 gal loft tank wouldn't have helped.

And even in a massive flood that takes out the mains pumps
for the entire area, we just supply bottled water, no need for loft
tanks. And the businesses mostly don't have any customers anyway
because the flood means that no one can get around except in boats
and they cant get new supplys except with air drops.

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article . com,
F Murtz writes:
Is any one still installing gravity hot water systems in Britain?
They are becoming non existent in Australia as most new and
replacement systems are mains pressure.

Probably not in homes,

I have not seen one in a new build home for at last 10 years. However when I
was wiring up grant scheme jobs a few years ago (the ones where the got free
CH replacement or insallation) all the S and P plans used gravity hot water.

--
Adam

"Rod Speed" wrote:

for the entire area, we just supply bottled water, no need for loft
tanks. And the businesses mostly don't have any customers anyway because
the flood means that no one can get around except in boats and they cant
get new supplys except with air drops.

So, which UK cars had Falcon engines, Rodney?

In article . com,
F Murtz wrote:
Is any one still installing gravity hot water systems in Britain?

On quality installations, yes.

They are becoming non existent in Australia as most new and replacement
systems are mains pressure.

Of course. Much cheaper. And saves space over a tank.

--
*When the going gets tough, use duct tape

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
F Murtz wrote

Is any one still installing gravity hot water systems in Britain?

On quality installations, yes.

Low quality, sure.

They are becoming non existent in Australia as most
new and replacement systems are mains pressure.

Of course. Much cheaper.

Not here they arent.

And saves space over a tank.

They mostly do have a tank, the difference
is that the tank is at mains pressure.

Its only the cheap and nasty installations that don’t have a tank.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
F Murtz wrote

Is any one still installing gravity hot water systems in Britain?

On quality installations, yes.

Low quality, sure.

They are becoming non existent in Australia as most
new and replacement systems are mains pressure.

Of course. Much cheaper.

Not here they arent.

And saves space over a tank.

They mostly do have a tank, the difference
is that the tank is at mains pressure.

Its only the cheap and nasty installations that don’t have a tank.

Thanks for those words of wisdom, rodney.
LMFAO
What a plonker.
Shouldn't you be washing the dishes?
It's about friggin time.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
F Murtz wrote

Is any one still installing gravity hot water systems in Britain?

On quality installations, yes.

Low quality, sure.

They are becoming non existent in Australia as most
new and replacement systems are mains pressure.

Of course. Much cheaper.

Not here they arent.

And saves space over a tank.

They mostly do have a tank, the difference
is that the tank is at mains pressure.

Its only the cheap and nasty installations that don’t have a tank.

So you don't know the difference between a tank and cylinder?

--
*A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
F Murtz wrote

Is any one still installing gravity hot water systems in Britain?

On quality installations, yes.

Low quality, sure.

They are becoming non existent in Australia as most
new and replacement systems are mains pressure.

Of course. Much cheaper.

Not here they arent.

And saves space over a tank.

They mostly do have a tank, the difference
is that the tank is at mains pressure.

Its only the cheap and nasty installations that don't have a tank.

So you don't know the difference between a tank and cylinder?

Even sillier.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
They mostly do have a tank, the difference
is that the tank is at mains pressure.

Its only the cheap and nasty installations that don't have a tank.

So you don't know the difference between a tank and cylinder?

Even sillier.

Only to you. A cylinder is designed to be pressurised. A tank, not.

--
*Why is it that to stop Windows 95, you have to click on "Start"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Only to you. A cylinder is designed to be pressurised. A tank, not.

Are you saying the copper cylinder I have is a tank?

dennis@home wrote:



"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Only to you. A cylinder is designed to be pressurised. A tank, not.

Are you saying the copper cylinder I have is a tank?

Just because a cylinder *may* be pressurised does not mean it is.
--
Tim Watts

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Only to you. A cylinder is designed to be pressurised. A tank, not.

Are you saying the copper cylinder I have is a tank?

A copper cylinder is designed to withstand a degree of pressure.

--
*Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are (usually) unnecessary *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"dennis@home" wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Only to you. A cylinder is designed to be pressurised. A tank, not.

Are you saying the copper cylinder I have is a tank?

Well, if your cold water header tank is above your cylinder, then it is
"pressurised". It'll have a pressure rating stamped on it somewhere. A
tank generally won't as it's only designed to support the weight of water
it contains.

Tim

"Tim" wrote in message
...

"dennis@home" wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Only to you. A cylinder is designed to be pressurised. A tank, not.

Are you saying the copper cylinder I have is a tank?

Well, if your cold water header tank is above your cylinder, then it is
"pressurised". It'll have a pressure rating stamped on it somewhere. A
tank generally won't as it's only designed to support the weight of water
it contains.

Tim


I once (1985) installed central heating in my three story house in town, and
the hot cylinder was on the ground floor and obviously the vented tank in
the loft. Although supposedly rated for the head of three stories it sprayed
water from several of it's folded seams. The merchants exchanged it for a
'high pressure' version.

AWEM

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:



"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Only to you. A cylinder is designed to be pressurised. A tank, not.

Are you saying the copper cylinder I have is a tank?

Just because a cylinder *may* be pressurised does not mean it is.

You wouldn't want to pressurise a domestic copper HW cylinder to any great
extent.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Only to you. A cylinder is designed to be pressurised. A tank, not.

Are you saying the copper cylinder I have is a tank?

A copper cylinder is designed to withstand a degree of pressure.

So is the plastic tank in the attic.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
F Murtz wrote

Is any one still installing gravity hot water systems in
Britain?

On quality installations, yes.

Low quality, sure.

They are becoming non existent in Australia as most
new and replacement systems are mains pressure.

Of course. Much cheaper.

Not here they arent.

And saves space over a tank.

They mostly do have a tank, the difference
is that the tank is at mains pressure.

Its only the cheap and nasty installations that don't have a tank.

So you don't know the difference between a tank and cylinder?


Two fish in a tank. One of them says to the other one "how do you drive this
thing?".

Of course he does not know the difference between a tank and a cylinder.


--
Adam

dennis@home wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Only to you. A cylinder is designed to be pressurised. A tank, not.

Are you saying the copper cylinder I have is a tank?

In dennis world it could be anything you want it to be.

--
Adam

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
They mostly do have a tank, the difference
is that the tank is at mains pressure.

Its only the cheap and nasty installations that don't have a tank.

So you don't know the difference between a tank and cylinder?

Even sillier.

Only to you. A cylinder is designed to be pressurised. A tank, not.

Even sillier. Have fun listing the mains pressure storage hot
water services that say they are a cylinder in their sales brochure.

On Thu, 10 May 2012 19:14:20 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

Only to you. A cylinder is designed to be pressurised. A tank,
not.

Are you saying the copper cylinder I have is a tank?

A copper cylinder is designed to withstand a degree of pressure.

So is the plastic tank in the attic.

How it's got a f'ing great hole at the top?

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Thu, 10 May 2012 19:14:20 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

Only to you. A cylinder is designed to be pressurised. A tank,
not.

Are you saying the copper cylinder I have is a tank?

A copper cylinder is designed to withstand a degree of pressure.

So is the plastic tank in the attic.

How it's got a f'ing great hole at the top?

What makes the stuff come out the holes in the sides/bottom if its not
pressure?

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
How it's got a f'ing great hole at the top?

What makes the stuff come out the holes in the sides/bottom if its not
pressure?

The same reason as rain falls downwards?

--
*If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

ARWadsworth wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Rod wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote
F wrote

Is any one still installing gravity hot water systems in
Britain?

On quality installations, yes.

Low quality, sure.

They are becoming non existent in Australia as most
new and replacement systems are mains pressure.

Of course. Much cheaper.

Not here they arent.

And saves space over a tank.

They mostly do have a tank, the difference
is that the tank is at mains pressure.

Its only the cheap and nasty installations that don't have a tank.

So you don't know the difference between a tank and cylinder?


Two fish in a tank. One of them says to the other one "how do you drive this
thing?".

Of course he does not know the difference between a tank and a cylinder.


All this discussion over semantics is not getting any where
In australia we just install a mains pressure off peak or solar storage
unit or an instantaneous gas unit Because it is cheaper and easier than
faffing about with header tanks or gravity storage heaters.
You may have different systems for hot water because of different
central heating systems than we do here.With our domestic central
heating we very rarely use pumped liquid or steam radiator type.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
How it's got a f'ing great hole at the top?

What makes the stuff come out the holes in the sides/bottom if its not
pressure?

The same reason as rain falls downwards?

Looks out of window Nah, rain travels sideways round 'ere.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

F Murtz wrote:

All this discussion over semantics is not getting any where
In australia we just install a mains pressure off peak or solar storage
unit or an instantaneous gas unit Because it is cheaper and easier than
faffing about with header tanks or gravity storage heaters.
You may have different systems for hot water because of different central
heating systems than we do here.With our domestic central heating we very
rarely use pumped liquid or steam radiator type.

As has been explained already, it's largely our legacy of an antiquated
distribution system which often results in poor flow or poor supply
pressure. Consequently, a storage system makes sense for many people in
the UK. Things are improving with regard to supply but It's by no means a
given that one's supply will be adequate for a non-storage system.

It's got nothing to do with central heating type. Hot water systems with
header tanks were the norm long before central heating (of any variety)
became common.

Tim

On Friday, May 11, 2012 2:56:36 PM UTC+1, F Murtz wrote:

You may have different systems for hot water because of different
central heating systems than we do here.


No one cares. It's an established and proven system, it has many advantages and a few disadvantages.

One of the main advantages is that there is (or should be) an air gap between the cistern water level and the mains inlet
and so the system is virtually immune to mains contamination by back-siphonage.
Header tanks are required by the Water Regulations for some hazardous fluids (laboratories, animal drinking systems).

Mains fed systems are liable to contamination in the event of pressure failure, breakage or sudden large demands and there are many documented incidents of stomach-churning mishaps.

With our domestic central
heating we very rarely use pumped liquid or steam radiator type.

What do you use, electric, reverse cycle AC?
Probably you've got little seasonal demand for it and no-one competent to install it. You should recruit some Poms engineers to show you how to do it properly.

On Friday, May 11, 2012 3:34:55 PM UTC+1, Onetap wrote:

Mains fed systems are liable to contamination in the event of pressure failure, breakage or sudden large demands and there are many documented incidents of stomach-churning mishaps.

http://www.holycross.edu/departments.../feature1.html

"On that fateful day, firefighters battled a blaze on nearby Cambridge Street. This caused a drop in the water pressure, allowing ground water to seep into the practice field’s irrigation system. That ground water had been contaminated by a group of children living near the practice facility who were already infected with hepatitis. Once the players drank from the contaminated faucet, they too became infected."

It was thought that water in a pop-up sprinkler pit had been contaminated with urine.

Tim wrote
F Murtz wrote

All this discussion over semantics is not getting any where
In australia we just install a mains pressure off peak or solar storage
unit or an instantaneous gas unit Because it is cheaper and easier than
faffing about with header tanks or gravity storage heaters.

You may have different systems for hot water because of different
central heating systems than we do here.With our domestic central
heating we very rarely use pumped liquid or steam radiator type.

As has been explained already, it's largely our legacy of an antiquated
distribution system which often results in poor flow or poor supply
pressure. Consequently, a storage system makes sense for many people in
the UK. Things are improving with regard to supply but It's by no means a
given that one's supply will be adequate for a non-storage system.

He's actually talking about storage systems except with what he
calls an instantaneous unit. The difference is that the hot water
storage system is at mains pressure, not atmospheric pressure.

It's got nothing to do with central heating type.

Thats not correct either. When the central heating is a hot air
system, that makes it a lot simpler to do the hot water system.

Hot water systems with header tanks were the norm long
before central heating (of any variety) became common.

Yes, but you dont see what you lot call combis
where the central heating is a hot air system.

On 11/05/12 20:25, Rod Speed wrote:

Yes, but you dont see what you lot call combis
where the central heating is a hot air system.

A few places I've stayed in Queensland, Aus have had an instantaneous gas
water heater (basically a combi without the CH bits, it does water only)
mounted on the outside of the house (no risk of frost!).

Most of them didn't have mains gas but they did have a big f'off LPG tank
which fed both the water heater and the gas hob.

One place I stayed in the Caribbean had a hot water storage system that was
basically a pressurised cylinder, heated by an electric immersion heater
(with expansion vessel obviously). Looked just like your regular UK airing
cupboard cylinder, except it was all located outside the house, this time
floor mounted out the back. It was painted black (to stay hot in the sun I
guess). This place had no mains water either, just a big f'off rainwater
cistern under the house (with an access cover in middle of the lounge floor)
and a pump next to the water cylinder.

Obviously, you didn't drink it, you drank bottled water...

2BSur2Bsur wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Yes, but you dont see what you lot call combis
where the central heating is a hot air system.

A few places I've stayed in Queensland, Aus have had an instantaneous gas
water heater

Yes, but thats the very low end of water heating in this country.

(basically a combi without the CH bits, it does water only)

Its just an instantaneous gas water heater, nothing to do with a
combi at all, because there is no gas central heating involved at all.

There is **** all central heating at all in Queensland.

mounted on the outside of the house

Yes, quite a bit of hot water heating is outside the house,
basically that approach doesnt waste space in the house.

(no risk of frost!).

Its pretty common even when there is a very real risk of frost too.

They dont freeze up.

Most of them didn't have mains gas

Yes, thats not that common in Queensland.

It is in the SE corner of the country tho.

but they did have a big f'off LPG tank which fed both the water heater and
the gas hob.

Yes, but its nothing like a combi.

One place I stayed in the Caribbean had a hot water storage system that
was basically a pressurised cylinder, heated by an electric immersion
heater

Thats very common way of doing hot water in Australia.

Lot more than half the hot water is done that way.

And it can be considerably cheaper than gas powered hot
water, even with mains gas, essentially because all the
electricity supply authoritys offer much cheaper electricity
tariffs for storage electrically powered hot water services.

(with expansion vessel obviously).

There is no expansion vessel with ours. The whole hot water
service is at mains pressure and there is just a pressure release
valve and a small bore, usually 12mm pipe to the outside of the
house. Not sure what that doesnt go into the normal water
drains, probably so you should notice if the valve has failed etc.

Looked just like your regular UK airing cupboard cylinder, except it was
all located outside the house,

Some of ours are, some of ours arent. Not sure what the
percentage is, likely something like 30% are outside.

this time floor mounted out the back.

Most of ours have their own concrete pad
the hot water service is on when its outside.

It was painted black (to stay hot in the sun I guess).

I cant say that I have ever seen any of ours are.

They are all well insulated because they are
after all storage hot water systems and the last
thing that makes any sense it to not insulate
them properly given that insulation is so cheap.

This place had no mains water either, just a big f'off rainwater cistern
under the house (with an access cover in middle of the lounge floor) and a
pump next to the water cylinder.

None of ours are under the floor, they are large
rainwater tanks at ground level or on a platform
thats at roughly waist level with the older ones.

Obviously, you didn't drink it, you drank bottled water...

We drink ours. Some have a rainwater tank even
when they have mains water and use that for
drinking water just because they prefer the taste etc.

Bit nutty in some ways given that they basically end up with
water in them that washed the bird **** etc off the roof.

Onetap wrote
Onetap wrote

Mains fed systems are liable to contamination in the event of
pressure failure, breakage or sudden large demands and there
are many documented incidents of stomach-churning mishaps.

http://www.holycross.edu/departments.../feature1.html

"On that fateful day, firefighters battled a blaze on nearby Cambridge
Street.
This caused a drop in the water pressure, allowing ground water to seep
into
the practice field’s irrigation system. That ground water had been
contaminated
by a group of children living near the practice facility who were already
infected
with hepatitis. Once the players drank from the contaminated faucet, they
too
became infected."

It was thought that water in a pop-up sprinkler pit had been contaminated
with urine.

Cant happen here, we have non return valves on the mains to stop that
happening.

Onetap wrote
F Murtz wrote

You may have different systems for hot water because
of different central heating systems than we do here.

No one cares. It's an established and proven system,
it has many advantages

**** all in fact.

and a few disadvantages.

One of the main advantages is that there is (or should be) an air gap
between the cistern water level and the mains inlet and so the system
is virtually immune to mains contamination by back-siphonage.

So is a system that has non return valves instead and that doesn't
produce a pathetic hot water pressure than needs a pump for a shower.

Header tanks are required by the Water Regulations for some
hazardous fluids (laboratories, animal drinking systems).

We just have cisterns for just that, not for the entire hot water supply.

Mains fed systems are liable to contamination in the event
of pressure failure, breakage or sudden large demands

Nope, not when there is a non return valve and that's legally required.

and there are many documented incidents of stomach-churning mishaps.

Not with non return valves used.

With our domestic central heating we very
rarely use pumped liquid or steam radiator type.

What do you use, electric,

Sometimes, particularly when it's a storage system with
the system charged at off peak rates.

reverse cycle AC?

Quite often.

And natural gas air central heating.

Probably you've got little seasonal demand for it

That's just plain wrong.

and no-one competent to install it.

Even sillier.

You should recruit some Poms engineers to show you how to do it properly.

We arent that stupid.

We don't central heat with oil either and havent done for decades now.

Onetap wrote
F Murtz wrote

They are becoming non existent in Australia as most
new and replacement systems are mains pressure.

The probable reason is that it would be more difficult to ensure the
stored cold water remained at less than 20 degC in a loft in Australia.

Have fun explaining the ubiquitous rain water tanks.

Legionella starts breeding above that temperature.

It is easily possible in the UK, with adequate
insulation on the tank and adequate turnover.

Just as true here.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote
Rod Speed wrote

So is a system that has non return valves instead and that doesn't
produce a pathetic hot water pressure than needs a pump for a shower.

Yes, but we don't live in one-story tin-roofed shacks, here.

But plenty of you do have to fart around with pumps for the showers
and the mess involved with different hot water and cold water pressures
with mixer taps too. Makes a lot more sense to have a simple non return
valve and a mains pressure storage hot water service instead.