"A prize-winning light bulb that lasts for 20 years is going on sale in
the US on Sunday - also known as Earth Day."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17788178

"Using LEDs endows the light with a long life and a hefty price tag."

They're not joking:

"The first versions are set to cost $60 (£37)"

Who in their right mind will pay that? Idiots. Here's the kicker: 60
and 100W bulbs are banned, 40W will be banned in 2014. Will the price
of the LED bulb come down to the price of indies by then?

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:

"A prize-winning light bulb that lasts for 20 years is going on sale in
the US on Sunday - also known as Earth Day."

Most would measure the life of such things in hours. Since they aren't
usually on 24/7.

FWIW I've got several incandescent lamps which are more than 20 years old.

--
*Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Mike Tomlinson wrote:
"A prize-winning light bulb that lasts for 20 years is going on sale
in the US on Sunday - also known as Earth Day."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17788178

"Using LEDs endows the light with a long life and a hefty price tag."

They're not joking:

"The first versions are set to cost $60 (£37)"

Who in their right mind will pay that? Idiots. Here's the kicker: 60
and 100W bulbs are banned, 40W will be banned in 2014. Will the price
of the LED bulb come down to the price of indies by then?

"It underwent18 months of testing".

So how do they know it will last 20 years?

--
Adam

En el artículo , Dave Plowman (News)
escribió:

FWIW I've got several incandescent lamps which are more than 20 years old.

*nods* I stocked up on loads when the ban came in, but have only used
one or two in the last 5 years. The small golfball bulbs and candle
bulbs are much less reliable.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:

"A prize-winning light bulb that lasts for 20 years is going on sale in
the US on Sunday - also known as Earth Day."

Most would measure the life of such things in hours. Since they aren't
usually on 24/7.

FWIW I've got several incandescent lamps which are more than 20 years old.


Moved to our previous house in 1984 and there was a 150W clear incandescent
in the garage, which looked as though it had been there for a while.
Still going strong when we left in 2007.

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
"A prize-winning light bulb that lasts for 20 years is going on sale
in the US on Sunday - also known as Earth Day."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17788178

"Using LEDs endows the light with a long life and a hefty price tag."

They're not joking:

"The first versions are set to cost $60 (£37)"

Who in their right mind will pay that? Idiots. Here's the kicker: 60
and 100W bulbs are banned, 40W will be banned in 2014. Will the price
of the LED bulb come down to the price of indies by then?

"It underwent18 months of testing".

So how do they know it will last 20 years?


The LEDs may last 20years, but the electrolytic capacitors in the power
supply that drives them won't.

I'd be surprised if they did 10 years at the sort of temperatures they will
be running at in a typical light fitting.

Andy.

En el artículo , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@
blueyonder.co.uk escribió:

"It underwent18 months of testing".

So how do they know it will last 20 years?

They don't. It'll be a statistical assessment of probable lifetime
based on the number of failures during that 18 month testing period.
But as any fule kno, there's lies, damned lies, and statistics. The
numbers can be massaged to give the desired result.

The acid test will be if they back up that 20 year claimed lifetime with
a warranty of similar length, which of course they won't.

The same thing happened with CFLs, and the lifetime of those is nowhere
near the claimed maximum (or if they don't fail, they dim so much as to
become unusable.)

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , ARWadsworth
adamwadsworth@ blueyonder.co.uk escribió:

"It underwent18 months of testing".

So how do they know it will last 20 years?

They don't. It'll be a statistical assessment of probable lifetime
based on the number of failures during that 18 month testing period.
But as any fule kno, there's lies, damned lies, and statistics. The
numbers can be massaged to give the desired result.

The acid test will be if they back up that 20 year claimed lifetime
with a warranty of similar length, which of course they won't.

Although you can get 10 year no quibble warranties on some LED spot lights
in this country. I seem to recall they are about £40.

The same thing happened with CFLs, and the lifetime of those is
nowhere near the claimed maximum (or if they don't fail, they dim so
much as to become unusable.)

I know. Progress is such a wonderful thing.

--
Adam

On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:42:40 +0100, Andy Bartlett wrote:
The LEDs may last 20years, but the electrolytic capacitors in the power
supply that drives them won't.

Why not? I wouldn't expect them to fail early from heat-related problems.
I've got plenty of stuff 30 years old or more still running happily with
the original electrolytics.

cheers

Jules

"Jules Richardson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:42:40 +0100, Andy Bartlett wrote:
The LEDs may last 20years, but the electrolytic capacitors in the power
supply that drives them won't.

Why not? I wouldn't expect them to fail early from heat-related problems.
I've got plenty of stuff 30 years old or more still running happily with
the original electrolytics.

cheers

Jules

In most designs you arrange it so electrolytics are not near hot
components, so extending life.

In a lightbulb you don't have that luxury, everything gets hot - 60 or 70
degrees - maybe even more in the confined space of a 12W lightbulb where
the electronics is in the uppermost part of the bulb.

Most of the premature failures in LED (and CFL) light bulbs is due to
.......... electrolytics drying out and failing.

Andy

Dave Plowman (News) wrote

FWIW I've got several incandescent lamps which are more than 20 years old.

I've got some that have been in use for more than 40 years and
I know when they went in because that’s when I build the house.

Corse they don’t get used much, in part of
the house that’s not used much at night at all.

Andy Bartlett wrote
ARWadsworth wrote
Mike Tomlinson wrote

"A prize-winning light bulb that lasts for 20 years is going on sale in
the US on Sunday - also known as Earth Day."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17788178

"Using LEDs endows the light with a long life and a hefty price tag."

They're not joking:

"The first versions are set to cost $60 (£37)"

Who in their right mind will pay that? Idiots. Here's the kicker: 60
and 100W bulbs are banned, 40W will be banned in 2014. Will the price
of the LED bulb come down to the price of indies by then?

"It underwent18 months of testing".

So how do they know it will last 20 years?

The LEDs may last 20years, but the electrolytic capacitors in the power
supply that drives them won't.

Plenty of the electros in stuff I have have lasted more than 40 years fine.

I'd be surprised if they did 10 years at the sort of temperatures they
will be running at in a typical light fitting.

Rod Speed wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote

FWIW I've got several incandescent lamps which are more than 20
years old.

I've got some that have been in use for more than 40 years and
I know when they went in because that’s when I build the house.

Corse they don’t get used much, in part of
the house that’s not used much at night at all.

HOLD THE FRONT PAGE.

NEWSFLASH

"Unused lightbulbs still in working condition"

FFS
--
Adam

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote

FWIW I've got several incandescent lamps which are more than 20
years old.

I've got some that have been in use for more than 40 years and
I know when they went in because that’s when I build the house.

Corse they don’t get used much, in part of
the house that’s not used much at night at all.

HOLD THE FRONT PAGE.

NEWSFLASH

"Unused lightbulbs still in working condition"

FFS

Bet his don’t get used much either, ****wit.

Rod Speed wrote:
"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote

FWIW I've got several incandescent lamps which are more than 20
years old.

I've got some that have been in use for more than 40 years and
I know when they went in because that’s when I build the house.

Corse they don’t get used much, in part of
the house that’s not used much at night at all.

HOLD THE FRONT PAGE.

NEWSFLASH

"Unused lightbulbs still in working condition"

FFS

Bet his don’t get used much either, ****wit.

If the lack of use is the criteria to longevity then your brain is immortal.


--
Adam

In message , Rod Speed
wrote

Plenty of the electros in stuff I have have lasted more than 40 years fine.

The life expectancy for electrolytic capacitors used for switched mode
supplies quoted by reputable manufactures can be as low as 2000 hours.
This is for an operating temperature of 105C and the life expectancy
will increase when operated at lower temperatures.

However, low power light bulbs run very hot when installed in ceiling
light fittings. Furthermore, the quality of capacitors used in a lot of
consumer electronics isn't too good as seen in many (TV) set top boxes
that suffer with electrolytic capacitor failure in as little as 2 years.

A modern electrolytic capacitor of the same capacitance/voltage of of a
capacitor 20 or 40 years ago is likely to be x2 to x5 physically
smaller. Smaller devices may tend to dry out faster.


--
Alan
news2009 {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:
"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote

FWIW I've got several incandescent lamps which are more than 20
years old.

I've got some that have been in use for more than 40 years and
I know when they went in because that’s when I build the house.

Corse they don’t get used much, in part of
the house that’s not used much at night at all.

HOLD THE FRONT PAGE.

NEWSFLASH

"Unused lightbulbs still in working condition"

FFS

Bet his don’t get used much either, ****wit.

If the lack of use is the criteria to longevity then your brain is
immortal.

Any 2 year old could leave that for dead.

Get one to help you before posting again, if anyone is
actually stupid enough to let you anywhere near one.

Alan wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Plenty of the electros in stuff I have have lasted more than 40 years
fine.

The life expectancy for electrolytic capacitors used for switched mode
supplies quoted by reputable manufactures can be as low as 2000 hours.

The lowest is completely irrelevant with the long lifed product being
discussed.

This is for an operating temperature of 105C and the life expectancy will
increase when operated at lower temperatures.

However, low power light bulbs run very hot when installed in ceiling
light fittings. Furthermore, the quality of capacitors used in a lot of
consumer electronics isn't too good as seen in many (TV) set top boxes
that suffer with electrolytic capacitor failure in as little as 2 years.

The lowest is completely irrelevant with the long lifed product being
discussed.

A modern electrolytic capacitor of the same capacitance/voltage of of a
capacitor 20 or 40 years ago is likely to be x2 to x5 physically smaller.
Smaller devices may tend to dry out faster.

Or they may not.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:
"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote

FWIW I've got several incandescent lamps which are more than 20
years old.

I've got some that have been in use for more than 40 years and
I know when they went in because that’s when I build the house.

Corse they don’t get used much, in part of
the house that’s not used much at night at all.

HOLD THE FRONT PAGE.

NEWSFLASH

"Unused lightbulbs still in working condition"

FFS

Bet his don’t get used much either, ****wit.

If the lack of use is the criteria to longevity then your brain is
immortal.

Any 2 year old could leave that for dead.

Get one to help you before posting again, if anyone is
actually stupid enough to let you anywhere near one.

LOL
There'ya go, Adam. Consider yourself reprimanded

On 22/04/2012 18:36, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

"A prize-winning light bulb that lasts for 20 years is going on sale in
the US on Sunday - also known as Earth Day."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17788178

"Using LEDs endows the light with a long life and a hefty price tag."

They're not joking:

"The first versions are set to cost $60 (£37)"

Who in their right mind will pay that? Idiots. Here's the kicker: 60
and 100W bulbs are banned, 40W will be banned in 2014. Will the price
of the LED bulb come down to the price of indies by then?


It is quite similar to these:

http://www.p4c.philips.com/cgi-bin/d...72790091840300


Which they claim last for up to 25 years or 25000 hours
Which I think is only about double what CFLs are supposed to last for.


--
Michael Chare

On 22/04/2012 20:23, Jules Richardson wrote:
On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 19:42:40 +0100, Andy Bartlett wrote:
The LEDs may last 20years, but the electrolytic capacitors in the power
supply that drives them won't.

Why not? I wouldn't expect them to fail early from heat-related problems.
I've got plenty of stuff 30 years old or more still running happily with
the original electrolytics.

Bet it ain't got a switched mode PSU though ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 22/04/2012 23:16, Alan wrote:
In message , Rod Speed
wrote

Plenty of the electros in stuff I have have lasted more than 40 years
fine.

The life expectancy for electrolytic capacitors used for switched mode
supplies quoted by reputable manufactures can be as low as 2000 hours.
This is for an operating temperature of 105C and the life expectancy
will increase when operated at lower temperatures.

Even many of the better ones are only rated at around 10K hours. At
3hrs/day usage that's ten years.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote
Jules Richardson wrote
Andy Bartlett wrote

The LEDs may last 20years, but the electrolytic capacitors in the power
supply that drives them won't.

Why not? I wouldn't expect them to fail early from heat-related problems.
I've got plenty of stuff 30 years old or more still running happily with
the original electrolytics.

Bet it ain't got a switched mode PSU though ;-)

You've just lost that bet. Plenty of computer terminals etc were at that
time.

En el artículo ,
Tim Streater escribió:

Sure. But any half decent mathematician would be able to ask the
pertinent questions that'll show up dodgy stats.

Yes, but bear in mind the original link was from a news site and
reporters aren't exactly renowned for paying attention to the facts.

Dodgy stats are usually caused by people who are clever in their own
field but know sod all about statistics. Have a look he

http://www.mth.kcl.ac.uk/~streater/cotdeaths.html

on my brother's (now somewhat ancient) website for a good example.

Thank you, I will. Never had any formal teaching in statistics, think
I'll pick up a primer.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

En el artículo m,
brass monkey escribió:

LOL
There'ya go, Adam. Consider yourself reprimanded

When Speed comes out with that cut'n'pasted boilerplate you know he's
lost the argument and has nothing else to say. He'll now morph his
posting identity to try and get around killfiles and ensure he has the
last word.

Rod Speed FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/883xp7v

Rod, just for you: http://tinyurl.com/d474l63

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

En el artículo , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@
blueyonder.co.uk escribió:

If the lack of use is the criteria to longevity then your brain is immortal.

Battle of wits with an unarmed man, Adam.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
Bet it ain't got a switched mode PSU though ;-)

You've just lost that bet. Plenty of computer terminals etc were at that
time.

There's a bit difference between a forced cooled PSU where space isn't an
issue, and the base of a lamp the reverse is the case. Thought even you
could see that.

--
*Just remember...if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Bet it ain't got a switched mode PSU though ;-)

You've just lost that bet. Plenty of computer
terminals etc were at that time.

There's a bit difference between a forced cooled PSU

Few of them were force cooled.

where space isn't an issue, and the base of a lamp the reverse is the
case.

But a hell of a lot less current.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
You've just lost that bet. Plenty of computer
terminals etc were at that time.

There's a bit difference between a forced cooled PSU

Few of them were force cooled.

Then it was physically very much larger than it need be.

where space isn't an issue, and the base of a lamp the reverse is the
case.

But a hell of a lot less current.

With caps specced pro rata.

--
*Don't byte off more than you can view *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2012-04-22, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

"A prize-winning light bulb that lasts for 20 years is going on sale in
the US on Sunday - also known as Earth Day."

How do they know it will last 20 years? Must be old technology!

;-)

On 2012-04-22, ARWadsworth wrote:

Rod Speed wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote

FWIW I've got several incandescent lamps which are more than 20
years old.

I've got some that have been in use for more than 40 years and
I know when they went in because thatÂ’s when I build the house.

Corse they donÂ’t get used much, in part of
the house thatÂ’s not used much at night at all.

HOLD THE FRONT PAGE.

NEWSFLASH

"Unused lightbulbs still in working condition"

OK, that really made me laugh out loud. And I won't ask for the
calculations to support that conclusion.

On 23/04/2012 11:08, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Rod wrote:
You've just lost that bet. Plenty of computer
terminals etc were at that time.

There's a bit difference between a forced cooled PSU

Few of them were force cooled.

Then it was physically very much larger than it need be.

where space isn't an issue, and the base of a lamp the reverse is the
case.

But a hell of a lot less current.

With caps specced pro rata.

The main problem for them is that what waste heat there is tends to cook
the LED/CFL control electronics above the lamp and the electrolytic
capacitors are almost always by far the weakest link.

Low ESR capacitors are guaranteed for a surprisingly short length of
time - 2000hrs or 10000hrs at max T depending on the price and rating.
The 125C rated ones last best. eg

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium/7151515/
(click on similar products to see the lifetime variation)

Cheapskates use the 105C max rated capacitors.

You see an astonishing number of these die horribly on PC motherboards
and that is a fairly benign well cooled environment (though subject to
rather high ripple currents). Not all of them are due to defective
electrolyte either - some die of old age bulging up as they do so.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote

You've just lost that bet. Plenty of computer
terminals etc were at that time.

There's a bit difference between a forced cooled PSU

Few of them were force cooled.

Then it was physically very much larger than it need be.

It wasn’t. It was just as big as it needed to be because of the size of the
components.

where space isn't an issue, and the base of a lamp the reverse is the
case.

But a hell of a lot less current.

With caps specced pro rata.

Perfectly possible to do 20 year life.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
You've just lost that bet. Plenty of computer
terminals etc were at that time.

There's a bit difference between a forced cooled PSU

Few of them were force cooled.

Then it was physically very much larger than it need be.

It wasn’t. It was just as big as it needed to be because of the size of
the components.

Which were vastly oversized?

Perhaps you might speculate why all *modern* computer terminals include
forced cooling?

where space isn't an issue, and the base of a lamp the reverse is the
case.

But a hell of a lot less current.

With caps specced pro rata.

Perfectly possible to do 20 year life.

As usual, you seem to think you know better than those with experience of
such things.

--
*If we weren't meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Apr 22, 7:56*pm, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@
blueyonder.co.uk escribió:

"It underwent18 months of testing".

So how do they know it will last 20 years?

They don't. *It'll be a statistical assessment of probable lifetime
based on the number of failures during that 18 month testing period.

Based on "accelerated life tests".

MBQ

In article
,
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Apr 22, 7:56 pm, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@
blueyonder.co.uk escribió:

"It underwent18 months of testing".

So how do they know it will last 20 years?

They don't. It'll be a statistical assessment of probable lifetime
based on the number of failures during that 18 month testing period.

Based on "accelerated life tests".

I'd like to see such claims banned - unless backed up by a warranty.

--
*If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 23/04/2012 13:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Man at wrote:
On Apr 22, 7:56 pm, Mike wrote:
En el , ARWadsworthadamwadsworth@
blueyonder.co.uk escribió:

"It underwent18 months of testing".

So how do they know it will last 20 years?

They don't. It'll be a statistical assessment of probable lifetime
based on the number of failures during that 18 month testing period.

Based on "accelerated life tests".

One thing they don't simulate too well is electrolytic capacitor flaws.

I'd like to see such claims banned - unless backed up by a warranty.

Some paint technologists I know are waiting to see what happens with the
Forth Rail Bridge now they have finished painting it with paint
"guaranteed for 20 years". Very few of them think it will last.

It is one thing getting a paint system to work on clean prepared
materials under lab conditions to pass accelerated ageing tests and
quite another to do it on a large scale structure consisting of old
rusty steelwork with sea spray, oil, rust and seagull dung liberally
applied. Only time will tell who is right.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Apr 23, 1:55*am, Michael Chare mUNDERSCOREnews@chareDOTorgDOTuk
wrote:
On 22/04/2012 18:36, Mike Tomlinson wrote:











"A prize-winning light bulb that lasts for 20 years is going on sale in
the US on Sunday - also known as Earth Day."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17788178

"Using LEDs endows the light with a long life and a hefty price tag."

They're not joking:

"The first versions are set to cost $60 (£37)"

Who in their right mind will pay that? *Idiots. Here's the kicker: 60
and 100W bulbs are banned, 40W will be banned in 2014. *Will the price
of the LED bulb come down to the price of indies by then?

It is quite similar to these:

http://www.p4c.philips.com/cgi-bin/d...g=en&scy=de&ct....

Which they claim last for up to 25 years or 25000 hours
Which I think is only about double what CFLs are supposed to last for.

So which is it 25,000 hours or 25 years

as according to my calculations a year is 8,760 hours which means 25
years is 219,000 hours.

You'd also have to check what this warrebnty covers is it the LEDs or
the whole product ?



--
Michael Chare

On Apr 23, 3:07*am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
John Rumm wrote

Jules Richardson wrote
Andy Bartlett wrote
The LEDs may last 20years, but the electrolytic capacitors in the power
supply that drives them won't.
Why not? I wouldn't expect them to fail early from heat-related problems.
I've got plenty of stuff 30 years old or more still running happily with
the original electrolytics.
Bet it ain't got a switched mode PSU though ;-)

You've just lost that bet. Plenty of computer terminals etc were at that
time.

I'm not too sure that is true for consumer products.
The first SMPS I can across was in a BBC computer in 1983.
The 10V ones used to dry out in about 5 years the sysmpton was that
the starup of the BBC
incresed to 1 hour or more.

checking upo here :-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switche...supply#History

On Apr 23, 1:58*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* *Man at B&Q wrote:

On Apr 22, 7:56 pm, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , ARWadsworth adamwadsworth@
blueyonder.co.uk escribió:

"It underwent18 months of testing".

So how do they know it will last 20 years?

They don't. *It'll be a statistical assessment of probable lifetime
based on the number of failures during that 18 month testing period.
Based on "accelerated life tests".

I'd like to see such claims banned - unless backed up by a warranty.

Here here, in fact I think after buying £30 or more for a 'bulb'
that's garrebntied for life,
then you return faulty ones to where you brought them and get a free
replacement.

Then I wouldn;t mind paying £30 every year for a bulb, if it failed
every year and I got a free one back.
Doubt the govenrment would sponser such a thing just ban working
bulbs, and give MPs a generous
light bulb allownce to cover it.

--
*If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular? *

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.