I asked this on the tag end of another thread, but here is my question
in all its glory.

When I redo my kitchen (again), I'm going to need to bring the mains
water in at a different point, from the outside. Obviously I'm keen
not to have to go under the foundations. Is there an approved way to
bring the mains above ground outside the house, and through the wall,
using insulation, and are there bits of kit made specifically for this
purpose? A desultory Google has brought nothing up.

Cheers
Richard

On 13/03/2012 12:06, geraldthehamster wrote:

When I redo my kitchen (again), I'm going to need to bring the mains
water in at a different point, from the outside. Obviously I'm keen
not to have to go under the foundations. Is there an approved way to
bring the mains above ground outside the house, and through the wall,
using insulation, and are there bits of kit made specifically for this
purpose? A desultory Google has brought nothing up.

Well, when I had to lay on mains water from scratch to a do-er upper a
few years ago, I had to jump through the water company's many hoops in
that regard. The pipe had to come in from the street through the wall
of the foundations at a minimum prescribed depth, and be sheathed in
insulation (the preferred way was to use a special purpose-made curved
plastic pipe about 4" diameter, filled with foam insulation). They were
really fussy and came to inspect, demanding further changes before
they'd approve the work. I can't imagine the rules being any different
for what you're proposing.

David

geraldthehamster wrote:
I asked this on the tag end of another thread, but here is my question
in all its glory.

When I redo my kitchen (again), I'm going to need to bring the mains
water in at a different point, from the outside. Obviously I'm keen
not to have to go under the foundations. Is there an approved way to
bring the mains above ground outside the house, and through the wall,
using insulation, and are there bits of kit made specifically for this
purpose? A desultory Google has brought nothing up.


No, and its bloody inadvisable. And IIRC contrary to building regulations.

That is exactly how to get a burst water main OUTSIDE the internal
stopcock.

Mains water has to be down at least a half a meter from memory until its
INSIDE the property and protected from siberian blasts etc etc.

You can extend outside underground, or inside - your choice, but neither
will be simple or cheap.

Drilling through foundations is not the end of the world, and neither is
chasing down below the main stopcock to find what's there, and extending
in in a trench in the floor.


Your best bet to drill through te foundations is to excavate outside as
deep as you need to and then from inside drill with a heavy duty core
drill or similar from floor level inside at a fairly steep angle down.

The better way - but its messier - is to remove a largish section of te
floor and dig down to at least 30mm below soild and then drill
horizontally.

This is definitely one of those questions that my .sig is designed to
highlight: Moving water and drains in a house is a BIG job. It seems
trivial. It never is.




--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

Lobster wrote:
On 13/03/2012 12:06, geraldthehamster wrote:

When I redo my kitchen (again), I'm going to need to bring the mains
water in at a different point, from the outside. Obviously I'm keen
not to have to go under the foundations. Is there an approved way to
bring the mains above ground outside the house, and through the wall,
using insulation, and are there bits of kit made specifically for this
purpose? A desultory Google has brought nothing up.

Well, when I had to lay on mains water from scratch to a do-er upper a
few years ago, I had to jump through the water company's many hoops in
that regard. The pipe had to come in from the street through the wall
of the foundations at a minimum prescribed depth, and be sheathed in
insulation (the preferred way was to use a special purpose-made curved
plastic pipe about 4" diameter, filled with foam insulation). They were
really fussy and came to inspect, demanding further changes before
they'd approve the work. I can't imagine the rules being any different
for what you're proposing.

+1




--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

Lobster wrote:

On 13/03/2012 12:06, geraldthehamster wrote:

When I redo my kitchen (again), I'm going to need to bring the mains
water in at a different point, from the outside. Obviously I'm keen
not to have to go under the foundations. Is there an approved way to
bring the mains above ground outside the house, and through the wall,
using insulation, and are there bits of kit made specifically for this
purpose? A desultory Google has brought nothing up.

Well, when I had to lay on mains water from scratch to a do-er upper a
few years ago, I had to jump through the water company's many hoops in
that regard. The pipe had to come in from the street through the wall
of the foundations at a minimum prescribed depth, and be sheathed in
insulation (the preferred way was to use a special purpose-made curved
plastic pipe about 4" diameter, filled with foam insulation). They were
really fussy and came to inspect, demanding further changes before
they'd approve the work. I can't imagine the rules being any different
for what you're proposing.

David

I redid the mains where it entered my house and they did not care - I did
ring them, mostly to get an idenfication on the type of pipe I found ouside
(1/2" alkathene as it happens).

I went under the foundations 2' down (old house), fed MDPE through a 4"
drain rest bend which had a 50mm adaptor on top and a bit of 50mm drain pipe
coming up to floor level.

Put an MDPE universal coupling onto the alkathene pipe again 2' down, built
a little brick chamber around the joint for inspection reasons with a lid on
top and back filled the hole under the house with well rammed concrete.

No insulation and no signs of freezing even last winter (2010-11).

The water company even offered to do a free reconnection to the main cock
(bang on my boundary) if I wished to run the MDPE out there.

For a new development, they are likely to be fussy - for a modification,
don't bother talking to them - just do it.

Insulation is a good idea if you can - but there's no point in being
paranoid - pipes round here that I've seen are no deeper than 2' under the
drives (stop cock position) and we don;t get problems.

--
Tim Watts

Tim Watts wrote:

Lobster wrote:

On 13/03/2012 12:06, geraldthehamster wrote:

When I redo my kitchen (again), I'm going to need to bring the mains
water in at a different point, from the outside. Obviously I'm keen
not to have to go under the foundations. Is there an approved way to
bring the mains above ground outside the house, and through the wall,
using insulation, and are there bits of kit made specifically for this
purpose? A desultory Google has brought nothing up.

Well, when I had to lay on mains water from scratch to a do-er upper a
few years ago, I had to jump through the water company's many hoops in
that regard. The pipe had to come in from the street through the wall
of the foundations at a minimum prescribed depth, and be sheathed in
insulation (the preferred way was to use a special purpose-made curved
plastic pipe about 4" diameter, filled with foam insulation). They were
really fussy and came to inspect, demanding further changes before
they'd approve the work. I can't imagine the rules being any different
for what you're proposing.

David

I'll just add that It's actually not that hard to get in under the
foundations. I would not run it up the outside wall.

I dug a 3' deep hole, 3x3' wide (looking for the original pipe) then used an
iron bar to dig out a small hole in the earth under the foundation strip.

Fron the inside, I used a 60mm (ish) TCT hole drill in an SDS to bore
vertically down through the concrete floor over the hole. Internal damage
was minimal.


I redid the mains where it entered my house and they did not care - I did
ring them, mostly to get an idenfication on the type of pipe I found
ouside (1/2" alkathene as it happens).

I went under the foundations 2' down (old house), fed MDPE through a 4"
drain rest bend which had a 50mm adaptor on top and a bit of 50mm drain
pipe coming up to floor level.

Put an MDPE universal coupling onto the alkathene pipe again 2' down,
built a little brick chamber around the joint for inspection reasons with
a lid on top and back filled the hole under the house with well rammed
concrete.

No insulation and no signs of freezing even last winter (2010-11).

The water company even offered to do a free reconnection to the main cock
(bang on my boundary) if I wished to run the MDPE out there.

For a new development, they are likely to be fussy - for a modification,
don't bother talking to them - just do it.

Insulation is a good idea if you can - but there's no point in being
paranoid - pipes round here that I've seen are no deeper than 2' under the
drives (stop cock position) and we don;t get problems.

--
Tim Watts

On Mar 13, 1:48*pm, Tim Watts wrote:
Lobster wrote:
On 13/03/2012 12:06, geraldthehamster wrote:

When I redo my kitchen (again), I'm going to need to bring the mains
water in at a different point, from the outside. Obviously I'm keen
not to have to go under the foundations. Is there an approved way to
bring the mains above ground outside the house, and through the wall,
using insulation, and are there bits of kit made specifically for this
purpose? A desultory Google has brought nothing up.

Well, when I had to lay on mains water from scratch to a do-er upper a
few years ago, I had to jump through the water company's many hoops in
that regard. *The pipe had to come in from the street through the wall
of the foundations at a minimum prescribed depth, and be sheathed in
insulation (the preferred way was to use a special purpose-made curved
plastic pipe about 4" diameter, filled with foam insulation). *They were
really fussy and came to inspect, demanding further changes before
they'd approve the work. *I can't imagine the rules being any different
for what you're proposing.

David

I redid the mains where it entered my house and they did not care - I did
ring them, mostly to get an idenfication on the type of pipe I found ouside
(1/2" alkathene as it happens).

I went under the foundations 2' down (old house), fed MDPE through a 4"
drain rest bend which had a 50mm adaptor on top and a bit of 50mm drain pipe
coming up to floor level.

Put an MDPE universal coupling onto the alkathene pipe again 2' down, built
a little brick chamber around the joint for inspection reasons with a lid on
top and back filled the hole under the house with well rammed concrete.

No insulation and no signs of freezing even last winter (2010-11).

The water company even offered to do a free reconnection to the main cock
(bang on my boundary) if I wished to run the MDPE out there.

For a new development, they are likely to be fussy - for a modification,
don't bother talking to them - just do it.

Insulation is a good idea if you can - but there's no point in being
paranoid - pipes round here that I've seen are no deeper than 2' under the
drives (stop cock position) and we don;t get problems.

--
Tim Watts- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks Tim.

The setup is: the water co's shut-off valve is just inside my property
(actually a water meter that we inadvisedly had installed, before
using the 12 month cooling off period to go back on the water rates,
when we realised how much we were using!). The house is about 20 feet
from there, but the existing main comes in at the back of the house,
as 15mm or 1/2"copper pipe emerging mysteriously from the floor, which
is all I can see.

I've no idea what's under the ground (house built 1963), but I may
need to replace back to the meter; alternatively maybe I could save
digging by joining MDPE to the existing pipe nearer the house, with an
inspection chamber? I do have an alternative route in via the utility
room, which is a later addition and (I have reason to believe) has
shallower footings than the kitchen.

I'm keen to avoid attacking the kitchen floor again - I've had to do
this once to route some internal water pipes, and I've seldom
encountered anything harder than that 1960s concrete.

Cheers
Richard

On Mar 13, 1:52*pm, Tim Watts wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:
Lobster wrote:

On 13/03/2012 12:06, geraldthehamster wrote:

When I redo my kitchen (again), I'm going to need to bring the mains
water in at a different point, from the outside. Obviously I'm keen
not to have to go under the foundations. Is there an approved way to
bring the mains above ground outside the house, and through the wall,
using insulation, and are there bits of kit made specifically for this
purpose? A desultory Google has brought nothing up.

Well, when I had to lay on mains water from scratch to a do-er upper a
few years ago, I had to jump through the water company's many hoops in
that regard. *The pipe had to come in from the street through the wall
of the foundations at a minimum prescribed depth, and be sheathed in
insulation (the preferred way was to use a special purpose-made curved
plastic pipe about 4" diameter, filled with foam insulation). *They were
really fussy and came to inspect, demanding further changes before
they'd approve the work. *I can't imagine the rules being any different
for what you're proposing.

David

I'll just add that It's actually not that hard to get in under the
foundations. I would not run it up the outside wall.

I dug a 3' deep hole, 3x3' wide (looking for the original pipe) then used an
iron bar to dig out a small hole in the earth under the foundation strip.

Fron the inside, I used a 60mm (ish) TCT hole drill in an SDS to bore
vertically down through the concrete floor over the hole. Internal damage
was minimal.





I redid the mains where it entered my house and they did not care - I did
ring them, mostly to get an idenfication on the type of pipe I found
ouside (1/2" alkathene as it happens).

I went under the foundations 2' down (old house), fed MDPE through a 4"
drain rest bend which had a 50mm adaptor on top and a bit of 50mm drain
pipe coming up to floor level.

Put an MDPE universal coupling onto the alkathene pipe again 2' down,
built a little brick chamber around the joint for inspection reasons with
a lid on top and back filled the hole under the house with well rammed
concrete.

No insulation and no signs of freezing even last winter (2010-11).

The water company even offered to do a free reconnection to the main cock
(bang on my boundary) if I wished to run the MDPE out there.

For a new development, they are likely to be fussy - for a modification,
don't bother talking to them - just do it.

Insulation is a good idea if you can - but there's no point in being
paranoid - pipes round here that I've seen are no deeper than 2' under the
drives (stop cock position) and we don;t get problems.

--
Tim Watts- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks, this is useful. I can visualise how to do it now.

Cheers
Richard

geraldthehamster wrote:
On Mar 13, 1:48 pm, Tim Watts wrote:
Lobster wrote:
On 13/03/2012 12:06, geraldthehamster wrote:
When I redo my kitchen (again), I'm going to need to bring the mains
water in at a different point, from the outside. Obviously I'm keen
not to have to go under the foundations. Is there an approved way to
bring the mains above ground outside the house, and through the wall,
using insulation, and are there bits of kit made specifically for this
purpose? A desultory Google has brought nothing up.
Well, when I had to lay on mains water from scratch to a do-er upper a
few years ago, I had to jump through the water company's many hoops in
that regard. The pipe had to come in from the street through the wall
of the foundations at a minimum prescribed depth, and be sheathed in
insulation (the preferred way was to use a special purpose-made curved
plastic pipe about 4" diameter, filled with foam insulation). They were
really fussy and came to inspect, demanding further changes before
they'd approve the work. I can't imagine the rules being any different
for what you're proposing.
David
I redid the mains where it entered my house and they did not care - I did
ring them, mostly to get an idenfication on the type of pipe I found ouside
(1/2" alkathene as it happens).

I went under the foundations 2' down (old house), fed MDPE through a 4"
drain rest bend which had a 50mm adaptor on top and a bit of 50mm drain pipe
coming up to floor level.

Put an MDPE universal coupling onto the alkathene pipe again 2' down, built
a little brick chamber around the joint for inspection reasons with a lid on
top and back filled the hole under the house with well rammed concrete.

No insulation and no signs of freezing even last winter (2010-11).

The water company even offered to do a free reconnection to the main cock
(bang on my boundary) if I wished to run the MDPE out there.

For a new development, they are likely to be fussy - for a modification,
don't bother talking to them - just do it.

Insulation is a good idea if you can - but there's no point in being
paranoid - pipes round here that I've seen are no deeper than 2' under the
drives (stop cock position) and we don;t get problems.

--
Tim Watts- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks Tim.

The setup is: the water co's shut-off valve is just inside my property
(actually a water meter that we inadvisedly had installed, before
using the 12 month cooling off period to go back on the water rates,
when we realised how much we were using!). The house is about 20 feet
from there, but the existing main comes in at the back of the house,
as 15mm or 1/2"copper pipe emerging mysteriously from the floor, which
is all I can see.


it will probably be 22mm if its reasonably recent.

I've no idea what's under the ground (house built 1963), but I may
need to replace back to the meter; alternatively maybe I could save
digging by joining MDPE to the existing pipe nearer the house, with an
inspection chamber? I do have an alternative route in via the utility
room, which is a later addition and (I have reason to believe) has
shallower footings than the kitchen.

TBH unless there is a concrete drive or summat in between, I'd dig right
back to the stopcock there and redo the whole thing in well laid MDPE -
the pipe is not expensive and a digger will cost you a couple of hundred
max and will make short work of the trench ...no need for inspection
chambers - more trouble than its worth.


I'm keen to avoid attacking the kitchen floor again - I've had to do
this once to route some internal water pipes, and I've seldom
encountered anything harder than that 1960s concrete.

yes. sometimes they did things right..well its kango time innit?

IF you CAN get under the foundations in toto then that's a good way to
do things.

Its not impossible either to do a semi bridge job and insert a concrete
lintel into the foundations and remove a small section below.

A digger down the side of the footings will reveal all.

then decide.

Cheers
Richard


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

On Mar 13, 1:48*pm, Tim Watts wrote:
Lobster wrote:
On 13/03/2012 12:06, geraldthehamster wrote:

When I redo my kitchen (again), I'm going to need to bring the mains
water in at a different point, from the outside. Obviously I'm keen
not to have to go under the foundations. Is there an approved way to
bring the mains above ground outside the house, and through the wall,
using insulation, and are there bits of kit made specifically for this
purpose? A desultory Google has brought nothing up.

Well, when I had to lay on mains water from scratch to a do-er upper a
few years ago, I had to jump through the water company's many hoops in
that regard. *The pipe had to come in from the street through the wall
of the foundations at a minimum prescribed depth, and be sheathed in
insulation (the preferred way was to use a special purpose-made curved
plastic pipe about 4" diameter, filled with foam insulation). *They were
really fussy and came to inspect, demanding further changes before
they'd approve the work. *I can't imagine the rules being any different
for what you're proposing.

David

I redid the mains where it entered my house and they did not care - I did
ring them, mostly to get an idenfication on the type of pipe I found ouside
(1/2" alkathene as it happens).

I went under the foundations 2' down (old house), fed MDPE through a 4"
drain rest bend which had a 50mm adaptor on top and a bit of 50mm drain pipe
coming up to floor level.

Put an MDPE universal coupling onto the alkathene pipe again 2' down, built
a little brick chamber around the joint for inspection reasons with a lid on
top and back filled the hole under the house with well rammed concrete.

No insulation and no signs of freezing even last winter (2010-11).

The water company even offered to do a free reconnection to the main cock
(bang on my boundary) if I wished to run the MDPE out there.

For a new development, they are likely to be fussy - for a modification,
don't bother talking to them - just do it.

Insulation is a good idea if you can - but there's no point in being
paranoid - pipes round here that I've seen are no deeper than 2' under the
drives (stop cock position) and we don;t get problems.

--
Tim Watts- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The stopcocks round here have a slab off oam pushed down on top of
them in the stopcock hole,

There are 2 occasions when water regs are not broken, but worked with
at some cost.

#1 - Depth
- For example where there are public services (Schedule 24) pipe
traversing the area making requisite depth impossible.
- Solution is the usual blue conduit, but with special waterproof
insulation inside it around the pipe.
- Cost per 2m appears reasonable (under £20), but realise when done
things are going to get really quite expensive.

#2 - Entering a property.
- For example proximity to ducts (eg, mains grid) or raft with keel
thickness (eg, 5 feet).
- Solution is a special lined box which is sunk to the required depth
outside and extends up the external wall. It usually houses a stopcock
and enters above ground.
- Cost is high, about £180 just for the parts including insulation.

Both the above are widely used - for example www.bes.co.uk carry them.

See...
- Water Meter Box - Groundbreaker 3 - 20241 - £120 inc VAT.
- PIPE PROTECTION BOX - INSUduct™ - 16791 - £50 inc VAT
- INSUDUCT™ MDPE PIPE - Hockey stick for box - 17969 - £10 inc VAT

Water should be laid at 750mm depth. Right smack through two 24"
Schedule 24 pipes and Railway Undertaker's will suggest this solution
too.

- WATER SERVICE DUCTING - 900 mm x 35 mm SHalloduct insulation - 19170
- £10 for JUST 90cm!!
- 4" x 3 m blue Rigiduct pipe - 3000mm x 4" blue rigidpipe duct -
18515 - £5.66 for 3m.

So if you had 30m to insulate, not unreasonable that is £360 for the
insulated duct... plus £60 for the insulated pipe protection box...
plus £120 for the water meter box... plus an external quality valve at
£20.

Compliant with water regulations for frost protection and DETR
guidelines, including water regulation guidelines G4.4 - .12. You can
not make up your own insulation, I suspect it is simply extruded
polystyrene (closed cell), moulded to fit the ducting.

Nothing to stop you using trace heating tape in the outside box
incidentallly... not much length required.

The boxes have special gaskets to seal against the brickwork
incidentally. They seem well regarded. Colleague used one setup, the
water company baulked at first, he quoted the details and they sent
someone back to do the communication pipe work and that was it.

Some performance specs...

Tested against Water Industry Standard 4-37-01.
- Resistant to temperatures at 0oC for at least two weeks
- Resistant to temperatures -15oC for a minimum of three days
- Test results being scrutinised by Water Research Centre (WRc) and
certified by the Water Regulation Advisiory Service (WRAS).

"In both these tests Groundbreaker exceeded the test requirement by
some considerable margin". I dislike marketing drivel like that, I
would much rather the WRAS report with actual test results be provided
- such as "0oC for 16 days" or "-15oC for 5 days".


Anyhow, for comparison 100yr winter did have average temperature below
0oC for some time and about 72hrs ranging -8oC to -22oC so average
probably did hit -15oC. So it looks like a "once in 150yr winter"
could produce conditions more severe than the test, but other than
that it looks ok and is certified by WRAS. I would still consider
heating tape if unoccupied, a couple of feet self-regulating does not
cost much... just don't make it solar powered :-))

What size / spec / radius rest bend did you use? I'm worried about creasing the 25mm pipe. Cheers.

On 25/11/2017 23:13, wrote:
What size / spec / radius rest bend did you use? I'm worried about creasing the 25mm pipe. Cheers.

Give us a clue old chap, quote some of the message you are looking at so
we know what you are talking about!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 26/11/17 02:43, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/11/2017 23:13, wrote:
What size / spec / radius rest bend did you use? I'm worried about creasing the 25mm pipe. Cheers.

Give us a clue old chap, quote some of the message you are looking at so
we know what you are talking about!

It's in reply to a 5-year old post. You can find it he
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?STYPE=msgid&A=0&MSGI=%3C1qv339-4a4.ln1%40squidward.local.dionic.net%3E

--

Jeff

Its obviously one from beyond the grave so its not possible.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"John Rumm" wrote in message
.. .
On 25/11/2017 23:13, wrote:
What size / spec / radius rest bend did you use? I'm worried about
creasing the 25mm pipe. Cheers.

Give us a clue old chap, quote some of the message you are looking at so
we know what you are talking about!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 26/11/2017 08:46, Brian Gaff wrote:

Its obviously one from beyond the grave so its not possible.

Well its possible (since the OP managed to find it on google groups),
and no doubt other archive site will have it.

However it would seem not unreasonable that the person asking the
question does some of the work!

(this is no doubt the usual problem of people using gateway sites to
usenet and not realising what usenet is or how it works. They probably
think we are all their glued to gg reading that "forum")

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

However it would seem not unreasonable that the person asking the
question does some of the work!

What's harry's excuse for responding to an 11 year old post from TNP
about gluing wood to plasterboard?

On 26/11/2017 13:21, Andy Burns wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

However it would seem not unreasonable that the person asking the
question does some of the work!

What's harry's excuse for responding to an 11 year old post from TNP
about gluing wood to plasterboard?

Just being consistent with his public display of competency.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
John Rumm wrote:

However it would seem not unreasonable that the person asking the
question does some of the work!

What's harry's excuse for responding to an 11 year old post from TNP about
gluing wood to plasterboard?

Ear to ear dog ****.