My brother is converting his house into 3 flats and reached the point of
wondering what sort of front door and lock to fit. It will be a common
access point for all 3 flats. He started off considering a PVC front
door but the need for everyone that comes in to turn the key to lock it
after entering doesn't seem ideal. I don't think 'normal' front-door
locks can be fitted to PVC, or can they? So PVC is probably out, in
favour of a wooden door? Is there any other choice?

What are options for lock these days. I've been reading the "Replace a
eurolock cylinder" thread, but are those applicable to wooden doors or
only PVC? Why would I use one anyway, compared to one of the Yale types?

What about intercom electrically operated locks? I suspect these are
weaker as well being unreliable.

Any suggestions from the panel?

Phil

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:32:13 +0000, Phil Addison
wrote:

My brother is converting his house into 3 flats and reached the point of
wondering what sort of front door and lock to fit. It will be a common
access point for all 3 flats. He started off considering a PVC front
door but the need for everyone that comes in to turn the key to lock it
after entering doesn't seem ideal. I don't think 'normal' front-door
locks can be fitted to PVC, or can they? So PVC is probably out, in
favour of a wooden door? Is there any other choice?

What are options for lock these days. I've been reading the "Replace a
eurolock cylinder" thread, but are those applicable to wooden doors or
only PVC? Why would I use one anyway, compared to one of the Yale types?

What about intercom electrically operated locks? I suspect these are
weaker as well being unreliable.

Any suggestions from the panel?

I've never had a plastic door and I've been put off the idea after a
friend was burgled: it seems that the miscreants did nothing more than
run at the door very hard and the centre panel - the one inside the
main frame with all the secure locking stuff in it - simply popped out
and fell into the kitchen.

But I've been wondering about taking in a lodger and the idea of one
of these mechanical keypad locks appeals since it would be possible to
change the combination after changing the tenant. They _look_ very
strong but could the experts tell me where they stand on the scale of
invincibility?

Tony

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:53:40 +0000, Tony Bowman wrote:

I've never had a plastic door and I've been put off the idea after a
friend was burgled: it seems that the miscreants did nothing more than
run at the door very hard and the centre panel - the one inside the
main frame with all the secure locking stuff in it - simply popped out
and fell into the kitchen.

Sure you must have seen the Police using The Enforcer on TV... Not
many doors can stand up to that, well it's normally the frame and
bolt recess or hinges that give. Plastic won't splinter like timber
but if the panels are only popped in...

But I've been wondering about taking in a lodger and the idea of one
of these mechanical keypad locks appeals since it would be possible to
change the combination after changing the tenant. They _look_ very
strong but could the experts tell me where they stand on the scale of
invincibility?

You mean the tall thin things with two columns of numbers and knurled
knob that sit proud of the door? I suspect a well aimed blow or two
would knock it off enabling acces to the drive to the motice latch in
the door... Also be aware that some only need the correct numbers to
be pressed, the order isn't important. So if 5682 opens the lock so
will 2658, 8652 etc. Gently pressing each button it is sometimes
possible to feel the latch for the corect code operate.

Combination lock is a good idea for your use but I'd go for a flush
mounting electronic one. The really decent ones of those have a
display for each number button and shuffle the position of each
number for each use to reduce the effectiveness of shoulder surfing,
that might be a bit OTT on a house though.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Jan 30, 9:00*am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:53:40 +0000, Tony Bowman wrote:
I've never had a plastic door and I've been put off the idea after a
friend was burgled: it seems that the miscreants did nothing more than
run at the door very hard and the centre panel - the one inside the
main frame with all the secure locking stuff in it - simply popped out
and fell into the kitchen.

Sure you must have seen the Police using The Enforcer on TV... Not
many doors can stand up to that, well it's normally the frame and
bolt recess or hinges that give. Plastic won't splinter like timber
but if the panels are only popped in...

But I've been wondering about taking in a lodger and the idea of one
of these mechanical keypad locks appeals since it would be possible to
change the combination after changing the tenant. They _look_ very
strong but could the experts tell me where they stand on the scale of
invincibility?

You mean the tall thin things with two columns of numbers and knurled
knob that sit proud of the door? I suspect a well aimed blow or two
would knock it off enabling acces to the drive to the motice latch in
the door... Also be aware that some only need the correct numbers to
be pressed, the order isn't important. So if 5682 opens the lock so
will 2658, 8652 etc. Gently pressing each button it is sometimes
possible to feel the latch for the corect code operate.

Combination lock is a good idea for your use but I'd go for a flush
mounting electronic one. The really decent ones of those have a
display for each number button and shuffle the position of each
number for each use to reduce the effectiveness of shoulder surfing,
that might be a bit OTT on a house though.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Or, you could fit eurolocks. The barrel can be changed easily, only
one screw and quite cheap. Cheaper than a combination lock anyway.

[Default] On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:32:13 +0000, a certain chimpanzee,
Phil Addison , randomly hit the keyboard and
wrote:

My brother is converting his house into 3 flats and reached the point of
wondering what sort of front door and lock to fit. It will be a common
access point for all 3 flats. He started off considering a PVC front
door but the need for everyone that comes in to turn the key to lock it
after entering doesn't seem ideal.

The door needs to be openable from the inside without the use of a key
and without having to operate more than one mechanism.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?

In article ,
Phil Addison wrote:
My brother is converting his house into 3 flats and reached the point of
wondering what sort of front door and lock to fit. It will be a common
access point for all 3 flats. He started off considering a PVC front
door but the need for everyone that comes in to turn the key to lock it
after entering doesn't seem ideal. I don't think 'normal' front-door
locks can be fitted to PVC, or can they? So PVC is probably out, in
favour of a wooden door? Is there any other choice?

What are options for lock these days. I've been reading the "Replace a
eurolock cylinder" thread, but are those applicable to wooden doors or
only PVC? Why would I use one anyway, compared to one of the Yale types?

What about intercom electrically operated locks? I suspect these are
weaker as well being unreliable.

Any suggestions from the panel?

How about a "crash bar" as fitted to a lot of fire exits? You can get them
unlockable from the outside.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

On Jan 30, 9:57*am, harry wrote:
On Jan 30, 9:00*am, "Dave Liquorice"



wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:53:40 +0000, Tony Bowman wrote:
I've never had a plastic door and I've been put off the idea after a
friend was burgled: it seems that the miscreants did nothing more than
run at the door very hard and the centre panel - the one inside the
main frame with all the secure locking stuff in it - simply popped out
and fell into the kitchen.

Sure you must have seen the Police using The Enforcer on TV... Not
many doors can stand up to that, well it's normally the frame and
bolt recess or hinges that give. Plastic won't splinter like timber
but if the panels are only popped in...

But I've been wondering about taking in a lodger and the idea of one
of these mechanical keypad locks appeals since it would be possible to
change the combination after changing the tenant. They _look_ very
strong but could the experts tell me where they stand on the scale of
invincibility?

You mean the tall thin things with two columns of numbers and knurled
knob that sit proud of the door? I suspect a well aimed blow or two
would knock it off enabling acces to the drive to the motice latch in
the door... Also be aware that some only need the correct numbers to
be pressed, the order isn't important. So if 5682 opens the lock so
will 2658, 8652 etc. Gently pressing each button it is sometimes
possible to feel the latch for the corect code operate.

Combination lock is a good idea for your use but I'd go for a flush
mounting electronic one. The really decent ones of those have a
display for each number button and shuffle the position of each
number for each use to reduce the effectiveness of shoulder surfing,
that might be a bit OTT on a house though.

Or, you could fit eurolocks. The barrel can be changed easily, only
one screw and quite cheap. *Cheaper than a combination lock anyway.

Eurolocks are quick & easy, and about £6 for a 5 pin, £20 for a 6
hardened pin cylinder.
Yale style night latch cylinders are about £2 for 5 pin, £5 for 6
hardened pins, but take longer to change.
House insurance policies often require 6 hardened pins.


NT

On 2012-01-29, Phil Addison wrote:

What about intercom electrically operated locks? I suspect these are
weaker as well being unreliable.

Can't comment on the other points, but we've got an intercom release on
the front door at work. It's used about ten times a day, and has been
for sixteen years. The door has a powerful spring/closer thingy that
slams the door mightily when people aren't careful. The lock mechanism
has never let us down. They're not complex, but they certainly don't
look very strong. I'm sure that if someone really wanted to gain entry
then a good boot would see to that - more so than a simple Yale I would
guess. Unfortunately it doesn't have a manufacturers name.

At most marinas I've visited security gates are held closed by very
strong magnets. AIUI, these are released by applying a current to
reverse the polarity of one of the magnets, the visitor then pushes only
to overcome the closer mechanism. These magnet locks are incredibly
strong, and I expect much stronger than regular release mechanisms. How
secure does your brother want the communal area?

Justin.

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 10:53:42 +0000, Hugo Nebula
wrote:

[Default] On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:32:13 +0000, a certain chimpanzee,
Phil Addison , randomly hit the keyboard and
wrote:

My brother is converting his house into 3 flats and reached the point of
wondering what sort of front door and lock to fit. It will be a common
access point for all 3 flats. He started off considering a PVC front
door but the need for everyone that comes in to turn the key to lock it
after entering doesn't seem ideal.

The door needs to be openable from the inside without the use of a key
and without having to operate more than one mechanism.

Hi Hugo, is that from planning/fire regs? Does it apply to all
properties of just multi-occupancy?

Phil

On 29/01/2012 23:32, Phil Addison wrote:
What about intercom electrically operated locks? I suspect these are
weaker as well being unreliable.

Open to social engineering.

fx ring Got a parcel for #3, and he's not answering, can I drop it
inside please?

fx door unlocks

Andy

In article
, NT
writes

Eurolocks are quick & easy, and about £6 for a 5 pin, £20 for a 6
hardened pin cylinder.
Yale style night latch cylinders are about £2 for 5 pin, £5 for 6
hardened pins, but take longer to change.
House insurance policies often require 6 hardened pins.

Are the active pins ever hardened? It's something I look at regularly
and the term hardened pins usually relates to narrow insert pins driven
in at key locations to resist drilling, not the active pins.

Also, I've not seen an insurance policy that goes into that much detail
on cylinder/lock security, usually just a BS requirement that can be
negotiated down to multilocking if required, any examples?
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

In article , Phil Addison
writes
My brother is converting his house into 3 flats and reached the point of
wondering what sort of front door and lock to fit. It will be a common
access point for all 3 flats. He started off considering a PVC front
door but the need for everyone that comes in to turn the key to lock it
after entering doesn't seem ideal. I don't think 'normal' front-door
locks can be fitted to PVC, or can they? So PVC is probably out, in
favour of a wooden door? Is there any other choice?

What are options for lock these days. I've been reading the "Replace a
eurolock cylinder" thread, but are those applicable to wooden doors or
only PVC? Why would I use one anyway, compared to one of the Yale types?

What about intercom electrically operated locks? I suspect these are
weaker as well being unreliable.

Any suggestions from the panel?

For multiple occupancy buildings durability is at least as important as
security and I think a solid wooden door is best for that. Beading can
be added to the exterior to make it look like a panel door and a kick
plate will cut down on wear.

If it doesn't need to be glazed then life is a lot easier. An exterior
grade wooden 30min or 1hr rated fire door will be chunky enough to stand
a lot of (general) abuse.

The norm on security (unless in a really dodgy area) is to concentrate
the on the individual flat doors (solid construction, low mortice plus
high BS rated cylinder) and go for just moderate security on the
external door.

For only 3 flats, there is obviously a budget issue so a decent heavy
duty cylinder based mortice latch mounted at waist height and combined
with an electric strike (google) is probably best. Yes it will pop with
sustained attack but surviving that is not really its purpose. Put a
(sprung) lever operated handle on the inside (not thumbturn) to ease
emergency egress.

Union mortice latches with oval cylinders are commonly used for this,
they seem to have reasonable durability. Yale surface mounted stuff just
isn't up to it. Don't waste money on secure cylinders as the place is
more likely to be accessed by failure of the door to close properly due
to negligence or oversight.

A flush mounted stainless panel fronted intercom with heavy buttons will
make things look a lot classier and wont cost that much.

A heavy duty door closer is equally important to ensure that the door
closes securely each time a visitor is admitted.

If the door must be glazed then again uses a fire rated one for weight
with just 2 upper glazed panels and use wired opaque glass as a visual
deterrent.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:00:07 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:53:40 +0000, Tony Bowman wrote:
...the idea of one
of these mechanical keypad locks appeals since it would be possible to
change the combination after changing the tenant. They _look_ very
strong but could the experts tell me where they stand on the scale of
invincibility?

You mean the tall thin things with two columns of numbers and knurled
knob that sit proud of the door? I suspect a well aimed blow or two
would knock it off enabling acces to the drive to the motice latch in
the door... Also be aware that some only need the correct numbers to
be pressed, the order isn't important. So if 5682 opens the lock so
will 2658, 8652 etc. Gently pressing each button it is sometimes
possible to feel the latch for the corect code operate.

I didn't know that before so I played about with a lock we have at
work protecting a secure area and found it is actually every bit as
weak as you suggested. It looks so strong too. Hmmm... better tell
some people at work tomorrow. Thanks for that.

Tony B

On 29/01/2012 23:32, Phil Addison wrote:
My brother is converting his house into 3 flats and reached the point of
wondering what sort of front door and lock to fit. It will be a common
access point for all 3 flats. He started off considering a PVC front
door but the need for everyone that comes in to turn the key to lock it
after entering doesn't seem ideal. I don't think 'normal' front-door
locks can be fitted to PVC, or can they? So PVC is probably out, in
favour of a wooden door? Is there any other choice?

What are options for lock these days. I've been reading the "Replace a
eurolock cylinder" thread, but are those applicable to wooden doors or
only PVC? Why would I use one anyway, compared to one of the Yale types?

What about intercom electrically operated locks? I suspect these are
weaker as well being unreliable.

Any suggestions from the panel?

Phil

Dunno about the door, but any decent locksmith could supply either a
eurolock or a yale type where any of the three keys would open the front
door, but the same key would only open an individual flat.

Sounds weird I know, but it can be done. That way each tenant only has
the one key.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 1/30/2012 7:33 PM, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Dunno about the door, but any decent locksmith could supply either a
eurolock or a yale type where any of the three keys would open the front
door, but the same key would only open an individual flat.

Sounds weird I know, but it can be done. That way each tenant only has
the one key.

I stayed at a university residence, where one key opened the front door,
the flat door, and the individual room door. Very clever, i thought.

On 29/01/12 23:32, Phil Addison wrote:
My brother is converting his house into 3 flats and reached the point of
wondering what sort of front door and lock to fit. It will be a common
access point for all 3 flats. He started off considering a PVC front
door but the need for everyone that comes in to turn the key to lock it
after entering doesn't seem ideal. I don't think 'normal' front-door
locks can be fitted to PVC, or can they? So PVC is probably out, in
favour of a wooden door? Is there any other choice?

What are options for lock these days. I've been reading the "Replace a
eurolock cylinder" thread, but are those applicable to wooden doors or
only PVC? Why would I use one anyway, compared to one of the Yale types?

What about intercom electrically operated locks? I suspect these are
weaker as well being unreliable.

Any suggestions from the panel?

After 26 years of managing a house converted to four flats:

Intercoms tend to not work after a while.
Intercoms mean visitors tend to enter and leave unescorted, and they
tend not to close the door after them.
So you need a door closer.
Door closers encourage even residents to be lazy and assume the door
will close itself.
Door closers only close properly if adjusted. They need re adjusting
with changes of temperature etc.
Door closers that slam too hard, damage the door --and the noise gets
really annoying.
Door closers that don't slam hard enough mean the door is left open (see
above re encouraging laziness)

I like locks with registered sections that are expensive to duplicate
keys: it reduces the number in uncontrolled circulation.

Assume that the common entrance door will always be relatively insecure.
Which means doors to individual flats need to be stonger. Once someone
has got through the common entrance they wont be visible to passers by
as the break down other doors.







--
djc

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 22:41:53 +0000, fred wrote:

In article , Phil Addison
writes
My brother is converting his house into 3 flats and reached the point of
wondering what sort of front door and lock to fit. It will be a common
access point for all 3 flats. He started off considering a PVC front
door but the need for everyone that comes in to turn the key to lock it
after entering doesn't seem ideal. I don't think 'normal' front-door
locks can be fitted to PVC, or can they? So PVC is probably out, in
favour of a wooden door? Is there any other choice?

What are options for lock these days. I've been reading the "Replace a
eurolock cylinder" thread, but are those applicable to wooden doors or
only PVC? Why would I use one anyway, compared to one of the Yale types?

What about intercom electrically operated locks? I suspect these are
weaker as well being unreliable.

Any suggestions from the panel?

For multiple occupancy buildings durability is at least as important as
security and I think a solid wooden door is best for that. Beading can
be added to the exterior to make it look like a panel door and a kick
plate will cut down on wear.

If it doesn't need to be glazed then life is a lot easier. An exterior
grade wooden 30min or 1hr rated fire door will be chunky enough to stand
a lot of (general) abuse.

The norm on security (unless in a really dodgy area) is to concentrate
the on the individual flat doors (solid construction, low mortice plus
high BS rated cylinder) and go for just moderate security on the
external door.

For only 3 flats, there is obviously a budget issue so a decent heavy
duty cylinder based mortice latch mounted at waist height and combined
with an electric strike (google) is probably best. Yes it will pop with
sustained attack but surviving that is not really its purpose. Put a
(sprung) lever operated handle on the inside (not thumbturn) to ease
emergency egress.

Union mortice latches with oval cylinders are commonly used for this,
they seem to have reasonable durability. Yale surface mounted stuff just
isn't up to it. Don't waste money on secure cylinders as the place is
more likely to be accessed by failure of the door to close properly due
to negligence or oversight.

A flush mounted stainless panel fronted intercom with heavy buttons will
make things look a lot classier and wont cost that much.

A heavy duty door closer is equally important to ensure that the door
closes securely each time a visitor is admitted.

If the door must be glazed then again uses a fire rated one for weight
with just 2 upper glazed panels and use wired opaque glass as a visual
deterrent.

Top tips, thank you Fred.

Phil

On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 01:12:46 +0000, djc wrote:

On 29/01/12 23:32, Phil Addison wrote:
My brother is converting his house into 3 flats and reached the point of
wondering what sort of front door and lock to fit. It will be a common
access point for all 3 flats. He started off considering a PVC front
door but the need for everyone that comes in to turn the key to lock it
after entering doesn't seem ideal. I don't think 'normal' front-door
locks can be fitted to PVC, or can they? So PVC is probably out, in
favour of a wooden door? Is there any other choice?

What are options for lock these days. I've been reading the "Replace a
eurolock cylinder" thread, but are those applicable to wooden doors or
only PVC? Why would I use one anyway, compared to one of the Yale types?

What about intercom electrically operated locks? I suspect these are
weaker as well being unreliable.

Any suggestions from the panel?

After 26 years of managing a house converted to four flats:

Intercoms tend to not work after a while.
Intercoms mean visitors tend to enter and leave unescorted, and they
tend not to close the door after them.
So you need a door closer.
Door closers encourage even residents to be lazy and assume the door
will close itself.
Door closers only close properly if adjusted. They need re adjusting
with changes of temperature etc.
Door closers that slam too hard, damage the door --and the noise gets
really annoying.
Door closers that don't slam hard enough mean the door is left open (see
above re encouraging laziness)

I like locks with registered sections that are expensive to duplicate
keys: it reduces the number in uncontrolled circulation.

Assume that the common entrance door will always be relatively insecure.
Which means doors to individual flats need to be stonger. Once someone
has got through the common entrance they wont be visible to passers by
as the break down other doors.

Food for thought, thanks djc. Did you solve the door closer conundrum?

Phil

djc wrote:

Intercoms tend to not work after a while.
Intercoms mean visitors tend to enter and leave unescorted, and they
tend not to close the door after them.
So you need a door closer.
Door closers encourage even residents to be lazy and assume the door
will close itself.
Door closers only close properly if adjusted. They need re adjusting
with changes of temperature etc.
Door closers that slam too hard, damage the door --and the noise gets
really annoying.
Door closers that don't slam hard enough mean the door is left open (see
above re encouraging laziness)

I like locks with registered sections that are expensive to duplicate
keys: it reduces the number in uncontrolled circulation.

Assume that the common entrance door will always be relatively insecure.
Which means doors to individual flats need to be stonger. Once someone
has got through the common entrance they wont be visible to passers by
as the break down other doors.

Good practical advice.

Bill

On Jan 30, 9:25*pm, fred wrote:
In article
, NT
writes

Eurolocks are quick & easy, and about £6 for a 5 pin, £20 for a 6
hardened pin cylinder.
Yale style night latch cylinders are about £2 for 5 pin, £5 for 6
hardened pins, but take longer to change.
House insurance policies often require 6 hardened pins.

Are the active pins ever hardened? It's something I look at regularly
and the term hardened pins usually relates to narrow insert pins driven
in at key locations to resist drilling, not the active pins.

Also, I've not seen an insurance policy that goes into that much detail
on cylinder/lock security, usually just a BS requirement that can be
negotiated down to multilocking if required, any examples?

If the householder says yes, 6 pin hardened pin locks were used, then
your insurance is based on the consequent risk level. If you then
replace it with a 5 pin, your insurance is invalid. Whether they'll
check in the event of a claim depends. Its a mistake very easily made.


NT

On Jan 31, 12:33*am, The Medway Handyman
wrote:
On 29/01/2012 23:32, Phil Addison wrote:





My brother is converting his house into 3 flats and reached the point of
wondering what sort of front door and lock to fit. It will be a common
access point for all 3 flats. He started off considering a PVC front
door but the need for everyone that comes in to turn the key to lock it
after entering doesn't seem ideal. I don't think 'normal' front-door
locks can be fitted to PVC, or can they? So PVC is probably out, in
favour of a wooden door? Is there any other choice?

What are options for lock these days. I've been reading the "Replace a
eurolock cylinder" thread, but are those applicable to wooden doors or
only PVC? Why would I use one anyway, compared to one of the Yale types?

What about intercom electrically operated locks? I suspect these are
weaker as well being unreliable.

Any suggestions from the panel?

Phil

Dunno about the door, but any decent locksmith could supply either a
eurolock or a yale type where any of the three keys would open the front
door, but the same key would only open an individual flat.

Sounds weird I know, but it can be done. *That way each tenant only has
the one key.

--
Dave - The Medway Handymanwww.medwayhandyman.co.uk- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It's called a suited key system. Common in very large high security
buildings.
There are many permutations of what opens what possible.
http://www.acleigh-shop.co.uk/shop/g...s-to-pass.html

On 31/01/2012 01:12, djc wrote:
On 29/01/12 23:32, Phil Addison wrote:
My brother is converting his house into 3 flats and reached the point of
wondering what sort of front door and lock to fit. It will be a common
access point for all 3 flats. He started off considering a PVC front
door but the need for everyone that comes in to turn the key to lock it
after entering doesn't seem ideal. I don't think 'normal' front-door
locks can be fitted to PVC, or can they? So PVC is probably out, in
favour of a wooden door? Is there any other choice?

What are options for lock these days. I've been reading the "Replace a
eurolock cylinder" thread, but are those applicable to wooden doors or
only PVC? Why would I use one anyway, compared to one of the Yale types?

What about intercom electrically operated locks? I suspect these are
weaker as well being unreliable.

Any suggestions from the panel?

After 26 years of managing a house converted to four flats:

Intercoms tend to not work after a while.
Intercoms mean visitors tend to enter and leave unescorted, and they
tend not to close the door after them.
So you need a door closer.
Door closers encourage even residents to be lazy and assume the door
will close itself.
Door closers only close properly if adjusted. They need re adjusting
with changes of temperature etc.
Door closers that slam too hard, damage the door --and the noise gets
really annoying.
Door closers that don't slam hard enough mean the door is left open (see
above re encouraging laziness)

I once fitted a door closer to the front door of a house converted into
3 flats. Tenant A complained that tenant B never closed the front door.

Tenant B then complained that the door slammed & the noise annoyed him...

I also had to fit 3 x mailboxes because tenant C complained that A & B
were stealing his mail...

On that subject - all the Argos mail boxes are keyed alike....


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:48:49 +0000, Tony Bowman wrote:

Also be aware that some only need the correct numbers to be
pressed,
the order isn't important. So if 5682 opens the lock so will 2658,
8652
etc. Gently pressing each button it is sometimes possible to feel
the
latch for the corect code operate.

I didn't know that before so I played about with a lock we have at
work protecting a secure area and found it is actually every bit as
weak as you suggested.

So much for your secure area. B-) To have better security you need
an electronic keypad and better still one that shuffles the number
positions about between attempts or even button pushes. Users will
hate the number shuffling though as they can't just learn the push
pattern. This might lead to the door being wedged open.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Tony Bowman wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:00:07 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"

You mean the tall thin things with two columns of numbers and knurled
knob that sit proud of the door? I suspect a well aimed blow or two
would knock it off enabling acces to the drive to the motice latch in
the door... Also be aware that some only need the correct numbers to
be pressed, the order isn't important. So if 5682 opens the lock so
will 2658, 8652 etc. Gently pressing each button it is sometimes
possible to feel the latch for the corect code operate.

I didn't know that before so I played about with a lock we have at
work protecting a secure area and found it is actually every bit as
weak as you suggested. It looks so strong too. Hmmm... better tell
some people at work tomorrow. Thanks for that.

Other problems with those - if you don't keep swapping the code,
the numbers wear off the used buttons.

OTOH, we had one at work with an unknown code, (big place, staff
churn...) but we needed out-of hours access. So, during the day,
when the whole place was unlocked, it was the work of a moment to
take it off the door, read the code and replace it. So, anyone
who has access can change the code.

They are really only a protection against folk accidentally
straying into restricted areas.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

The Medway Handyman wrote:

I once fitted a door closer to the front door of a house converted into
3 flats. Tenant A complained that tenant B never closed the front door.

Tenant B then complained that the door slammed & the noise annoyed him...

A few years ago, staying in a hostel in Prague, our room was next
to a heavy internal door, which slammed through the night. A
quick tweak to the two adjusters, with my Swiss Army screwdriver,
soon achieved silent but secure closure. Simples :-)

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

In article
, NT
writes
On Jan 30, 9:25*pm, fred wrote:
In article
, NT
writes

Eurolocks are quick & easy, and about £6 for a 5 pin, £20 for a 6
hardened pin cylinder.
Yale style night latch cylinders are about £2 for 5 pin, £5 for 6
hardened pins, but take longer to change.
House insurance policies often require 6 hardened pins.

Are the active pins ever hardened? It's something I look at regularly
and the term hardened pins usually relates to narrow insert pins driven
in at key locations to resist drilling, not the active pins.

Also, I've not seen an insurance policy that goes into that much detail
on cylinder/lock security, usually just a BS requirement that can be
negotiated down to multilocking if required, any examples?

If the householder says yes, 6 pin hardened pin locks were used, then
your insurance is based on the consequent risk level. If you then
replace it with a 5 pin, your insurance is invalid. Whether they'll
check in the event of a claim depends. Its a mistake very easily made.

The point I was making is that I've never seen a tick box asking a such
a question, have you? All I've seen are BS/multipoint lock tickboxes?

And again, what is a 6 pin hardened pin lock? I'm trying to avoid the
proliferation of misleading terms that could result in confusion. Happy
to see an example of such.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

In message , Chris J Dixon
writes
The Medway Handyman wrote:

I once fitted a door closer to the front door of a house converted into
3 flats. Tenant A complained that tenant B never closed the front door.

Tenant B then complained that the door slammed & the noise annoyed him...

A few years ago, staying in a hostel in Prague, our room was next
to a heavy internal door, which slammed through the night. A
quick tweak to the two adjusters, with my Swiss Army screwdriver,
soon achieved silent but secure closure. Simples :-)

I hope it wasn't in your pocket when you went through airport
security:-(

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

In message , Chris J Dixon

A few years ago, staying in a hostel in Prague, our room was next
to a heavy internal door, which slammed through the night. A
quick tweak to the two adjusters, with my Swiss Army screwdriver,
soon achieved silent but secure closure. Simples :-)

I hope it wasn't in your pocket when you went through airport
security:-(

I remembered to stow it.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

"S Viemeister" wrote in message
...
On 1/30/2012 7:33 PM, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Dunno about the door, but any decent locksmith could supply either a
eurolock or a yale type where any of the three keys would open the front
door, but the same key would only open an individual flat.

Sounds weird I know, but it can be done. That way each tenant only has
the one key.

I stayed at a university residence, where one key opened the front door,
the flat door, and the individual room door. Very clever, i thought.

Its OK as long as you realise that it makes the security weaker.
The first door may only be the equivalent of a three pin lock.
The second that of a four pin lock.
The third a five pin lock.
All bets are off if someone has two or more of the keys as they can workout
which pins are common and cut a few keys to fit the rest.

If security is a real issue then you need to adopt a mechanism where you
need something physical and know a secret.
This could be a key and a code lock, a keypad and a fob electronic lock,
etc.

In article om,
dennis@home wrote:


"S Viemeister" wrote in message
...
On 1/30/2012 7:33 PM, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Dunno about the door, but any decent locksmith could supply either a
eurolock or a yale type where any of the three keys would open the
front door, but the same key would only open an individual flat.

Sounds weird I know, but it can be done. That way each tenant only has
the one key.

I stayed at a university residence, where one key opened the front
door, the flat door, and the individual room door. Very clever, i
thought.

Its OK as long as you realise that it makes the security weaker. The
first door may only be the equivalent of a three pin lock. The second
that of a four pin lock. The third a five pin lock. All bets are off if
someone has two or more of the keys as they can workout which pins are
common and cut a few keys to fit the rest.

If security is a real issue then you need to adopt a mechanism where you
need something physical and know a secret. This could be a key and a code
lock, a keypad and a fob electronic lock, etc.

In our theatre there are 13 pin locks witha "master" & submaster"
arrangement.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:00:07 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:53:40 +0000, Tony Bowman wrote:

I've never had a plastic door and I've been put off the idea after a
friend was burgled: it seems that the miscreants did nothing more than
run at the door very hard and the centre panel - the one inside the
main frame with all the secure locking stuff in it - simply popped out
and fell into the kitchen.

Sure you must have seen the Police using The Enforcer on TV... Not
many doors can stand up to that, well it's normally the frame and
bolt recess or hinges that give. Plastic won't splinter like timber
but if the panels are only popped in...

But I've been wondering about taking in a lodger and the idea of one
of these mechanical keypad locks appeals since it would be possible to
change the combination after changing the tenant. They _look_ very
strong but could the experts tell me where they stand on the scale of
invincibility?

Fortress near us claim their doors are 'enforcer proof' ...


You mean the tall thin things with two columns of numbers and knurled
knob that sit proud of the door? I suspect a well aimed blow or two
would knock it off enabling acces to the drive to the motice latch in
the door... Also be aware that some only need the correct numbers to
be pressed, the order isn't important. So if 5682 opens the lock so
will 2658, 8652 etc. Gently pressing each button it is sometimes
possible to feel the latch for the corect code operate.

Combination lock is a good idea for your use but I'd go for a flush
mounting electronic one. The really decent ones of those have a
display for each number button and shuffle the position of each
number for each use to reduce the effectiveness of shoulder surfing,
that might be a bit OTT on a house though.
--
http://www.voucherfreebies.co.uk

"djc" wrote in message
...
On 29/01/12 23:32, Phil Addison wrote:
My brother is converting his house into 3 flats and reached the point of
wondering what sort of front door and lock to fit. It will be a common
access point for all 3 flats. He started off considering a PVC front
door but the need for everyone that comes in to turn the key to lock it
after entering doesn't seem ideal. I don't think 'normal' front-door
locks can be fitted to PVC, or can they? So PVC is probably out, in
favour of a wooden door? Is there any other choice?

What are options for lock these days. I've been reading the "Replace a
eurolock cylinder" thread, but are those applicable to wooden doors or
only PVC? Why would I use one anyway, compared to one of the Yale types?

What about intercom electrically operated locks? I suspect these are
weaker as well being unreliable.

Any suggestions from the panel?

After 26 years of managing a house converted to four flats:

Intercoms tend to not work after a while.
Intercoms mean visitors tend to enter and leave unescorted, and they
tend not to close the door after them.
So you need a door closer.
Door closers encourage even residents to be lazy and assume the door
will close itself.
Door closers only close properly if adjusted. They need re adjusting
with changes of temperature etc.
Door closers that slam too hard, damage the door --and the noise gets
really annoying.
Door closers that don't slam hard enough mean the door is left open (see
above re encouraging laziness)

I like locks with registered sections that are expensive to duplicate
keys: it reduces the number in uncontrolled circulation.

Assume that the common entrance door will always be relatively insecure.
Which means doors to individual flats need to be stonger. Once someone
has got through the common entrance they wont be visible to passers by
as the break down other doors.

This means having a weak entrance. A weak entrance, even a porch, makes the
rest almost useless.
People take no notice at all of "workmen" inside porches let alone
buildings.
This means "workmen" can use what they like to open internal doors.
When was the last time you took any interest in someone "working" in a porch
or building?

"charles" wrote in message
...


In our theatre there are 13 pin locks witha "master" & submaster"
arrangement.

Any idea how much they cost?

In article om,
dennis@home wrote:


"charles" wrote in message
...


In our theatre there are 13 pin locks witha "master" & submaster"
arrangement.

Any idea how much they cost?

none at all, but I know the theatre had a very tight budget.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

[Default] On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:13:38 +0000, a certain chimpanzee,
Phil Addison , randomly hit the keyboard and
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 10:53:42 +0000, Hugo Nebula
wrote:

The door needs to be openable from the inside without the use of a key
and without having to operate more than one mechanism.

Hi Hugo, is that from planning/fire regs? Does it apply to all
properties of just multi-occupancy?

It's from Approved Document B (Vol 2) to Part B of the Building
Regulations. It would apply to any applicable building work to any
type of building except dwellinghouses. I suspect HMO licencing and/or
RR(FS)O enforcement would apply it also.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?

[Default] On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:24:39 -0000, a certain chimpanzee,
"ARWadsworth" , randomly hit the
keyboard and wrote:

Hugo Nebula wrote:

The door needs to be openable from the inside without the use of a key
and without having to operate more than one mechanism.

Is there any restrospective laws that apply to that rule (thinking of my
parents holiday apartment built in 1970)

For Building Regulations, either a change of use to some other use, or
a material alteration that made the building any worse in terms of the
requirement than it was before. For any other legislation, it may be
that Housing legislation or Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order
could require improvements to the existing situation.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?

[Default] On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:40:03 +0000 (UTC), a certain
chimpanzee, (Andrew Gabriel), randomly hit
the keyboard and wrote:

Mechanical locks are available in power to open or power to lock
versions, depending how you want them to fail in a power failure.

They would have to fail to open in a power failure or an alarm (and
would therefore require automatic fire detection in the common areas -
an aditional expense), and have a manual release mechanism (to cut all
the power) from inside in a break-glass. The problem with some
magnetic locks is that the bolt becomes magnetised and stays in
position even when de-energised.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article om,
dennis@home wrote:


"charles" wrote in message
...


In our theatre there are 13 pin locks witha "master" & submaster"
arrangement.

Any idea how much they cost?

none at all, but I know the theatre had a very tight budget.

Shame, I can't find anyone that makes a 13 pin lock.

In article om,
dennis@home wrote:


"charles" wrote in message
...
In article om,
dennis@home wrote:


"charles" wrote in message
...


In our theatre there are 13 pin locks witha "master" & submaster"
arrangement.

Any idea how much they cost?

none at all, but I know the theatre had a very tight budget.

Shame, I can't find anyone that makes a 13 pin lock.

these are Iseo - Italian (Eurolock)

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16

On 31/01/12 01:30, Phil Addison wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2012 01:12:46 +0000, djc wrote:

After 26 years of managing a house converted to four flats:
Intercoms tend to not work after a while.
Intercoms mean visitors tend to enter and leave unescorted, and they
tend not to close the door after them.
So you need a door closer.
Door closers encourage even residents to be lazy and assume the door
will close itself.
Door closers only close properly if adjusted. They need re adjusting
with changes of temperature etc.
Door closers that slam too hard, damage the door --and the noise gets
really annoying.
Door closers that don't slam hard enough mean the door is left open (see
above re encouraging laziness)


Assume that the common entrance door will always be relatively insecure.
Which means doors to individual flats need to be stonger. Once someone
has got through the common entrance they wont be visible to passers by
as the break down other doors.

Food for thought, thanks djc. Did you solve the door closer conundrum?

No, when the noise or the non-closing gets annoying I do some DIY!

I would also add that an alternative to using expensive registered keys
to stop too many circulating is to just use cheap Yale or Euro
cylinders and change them regularly. But even with just four flats
changing locks and issuing a new set of keys can be a logistical problem.

Up thread someone mentioned Master Key systems which can be useful but I
would always prefer to have at least one independent lock on my own door.


--
djc