Metal theft. The biters bit
 

whisky-dave wrote:
On Jan 24, 10:08 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
The Grey Man wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:42:39 +0000, Bill Wright
wrote:
All burglaries and assaults should result in an automatic custodial
sentence.
Bill
Of course you're right.
Alas, HMG keeps bellyaching on about how our prisons are full and
overcrowded.
Mostly with junkies and potheads who would be better off on NHS dope.

or let them buy their own drugs, like other do with beer and cigs.
Well, exactly. and similar taxes - high enough to pay for the NHS but
not high enough to make smuggling them onto a black market viable.

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

"Janet" wrote in message
...
In article , says...

They are like rats amongst us, with the morality of rats, sub-human,

where have we heard that before..

I wasn't around in the '30s and '40s, but there are films from then.

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

"harry" wrote in message
...

Do you feel the same way about a criminal who drives his car at 45 MPH
in a 40 MPH limit? It could result in death. Even parking in a
no-parking area could result in death. Do you therefore similarly
wish death on drivers who break the speed limit, and people with
parking infringements?

--
Cynic

If they kill someone then yes.

Why should someone that is speeding and has a child run out and get killed
be treated differently to a speeder who doesn't have a child run out? The
crime is the same only the outcome is different. The difference is not under
the control of the driver and is an easily foreseen circumstance. They are
equally guilty.

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

"harry" wrote in message
...

I could make prison work.

Prison does work, prisoners don't offend against the public while they are
locked up.
All you need to do is keep the re-offenders in there.

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

In article o.uk, Dave
Liquorice scribeth thus
On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:55:39 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

So, what was the greatest good for the greatest number? Would his simple
death have not in fact been a whole lot better?

I agreed. It's not an easy decision. When my mother had a major
stroke (completely out of the blue) and was in hospital only able to
mumble and move a couple of fingers on one hand we decided that "Do
not resuscitate" was the best course of action. She died in her sleep
a few days later.

Seeing some one trapped within a body that they can longer use is not
very pleasant. You could tell from her eyes that she was still in
there, how she felt I can't even begin to imagine.


Poor lady;(

When I was in hospital recovering from a coma a few years ago after a
fall from a power line, long story;!, my bro in laws dad was in there
too after suffering from a stroke.

It was "decided", quite by whom I don't know, that they weren't going to
feed him or give him any water even, he was in fact going to be starved
to death the death happening sooner through the lack of water..

One young new to the ward nurse there took pity on him, shall we say,
and seeing him staring at the water jug on the bed next to his gave him
a few sips for which as she said he seemed so bewildered that they were
treating him so, seemed as he couldn't speak properly!.

She also gave him some mashed up food which he managed to eat after a
fashion and in fact after a few weeks was sent home , well back to the
town where he lived to live out his days in a nursing home where he did
pass away from other causes some months later..

I heard that the nurse got a bit of a ticking off for doing this but she
said her conscience couldn't let someone deliberately die.

However at the same hospital and in the same ward they treated me in
they have to make decisions like that, heres a clip from the excellent
TV film "Between life and death" of someone who was thought be almost
brain dead and was about to have his life support switched off .. then
they make an interesting discovery!...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I1RBiDKDbA

No, its not a lot of fun getting old;!...


--
Tony Sayer

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:
On Jan 24, 10:08 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
The Grey Man wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:42:39 +0000, Bill Wright
wrote:
All burglaries and assaults should result in an automatic
custodial sentence.
Bill
Of course you're right.
Alas, HMG keeps bellyaching on about how our prisons are full and
overcrowded.
Mostly with junkies and potheads who would be better off on NHS
dope.

or let them buy their own drugs, like other do with beer and cigs.
Well, exactly. and similar taxes - high enough to pay for the NHS but
not high enough to make smuggling them onto a black market viable.

Clearly cigs are overpriced then. My wife asked some of her work colleagues
how they could afford to carry on smoking and they looked at her as if she
was mad. Apparently few smokers around here buy proper duty paid cigs but
buy them from dodgy blokes at car boot sales.

Tim

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

In article om,
dennis@home wrote:
Prison does work, prisoners don't offend against the public while they are
locked up.

All you need to do is keep the re-offenders in there.

It costs more than simply giving them a reasonable amount of money to live
on outside. Which makes it poor value for those paying the bills - ie the
taxpayer.

--
*Life is hard; then you nap

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:25:07 +0000, Steve Walker
wrote:

I can give you an actual example of the problems. My parents' next-door
neighbour suffered from emphysema. He spent his final years at home,
hooked up to a machine that fed him oxygen enriched air. If the power
failed, the battery would last only a short time and the back-up was
bottled oxygen, which would also work if the machine failed in any other
way. However, he was physically unable to turn the oxygen bottle on by
himself. His wife very rarely spent more than a very short time out of
the house because of this, but had to take a chance occassionally. At
one stage she dared not leave the house at all for a fortnight, as cable
TV was being put in through the area and they had twice hit power cables
- without her there, this could have killed him.

If his wife particularly *needed* to leave him for longer than the
battery would last, she would undoubtedly arrange for a more robust
backup system. If such events were rare, that backup could consist of
merely asking a reliable neighbour to check on him every hour or so.
If it was a frequent requirement, then I am sure that a backup system
could have been fitted that would not require manual intervention.

--
Cynic

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:02:09 -0000, "Bill Grey"
wrote:

All electrically operated life-support machines invariably have an
alternate power source that will switch in automatically in the event
of a mains failure.

Dream on!

I can assure you it is far from a dream. The only life support
machines that are not designed with such a backup are those that are
meant to be used exclusively in an environment where immediate human
backup is available at all times.

I would not even risk important *data* to the possibility of a mains
power failure, but arrange for a UPS and other failsafe measures. I
can assure you that if any of my family or friends' lives depended on
the operation of an electric machine, I would ensure that their lives
would not be ended as a result of a power cut. YMMV

--
Cynic

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:22:10 -0000, "'Mike'"
wrote:

All electrically operated life-support machines invariably have an
alternate power source that will switch in automatically in the event
of a mains failure.

Dream on!

Bill

Bill the emphasis is on "electrically operated life-support machines". Maybe
not in your home but in hospitals, .. yes.

It is *especially* true in the case of life support machines designed
to be used at home. Hospitals will always have staff on hand to
manually operate a ventilator etc. should the power fail, but the
designer of a life-support machine meant for home use cannot rely on
the fact that someone with the necessary knowlege will be on hand
within minutes in the event of a power cut, and so the design of
backup systems and fail-safe failure modes is even more important.

Any domestic life support machine that is designed so that it would
kill the patient in the event of a mains power outage would not be fit
for purpose.

--
Cynic

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On 24/01/12 21:01, Steve Walker wrote:


They fequently say that prison doesn't work and doesn't deter
re-offending. I've always wondered that even if prison doesn't work for
many of those incarcerated, do long sentences deter those that have
never been in trouble from getting into a life of crime in the first place?


Prison works as a deterrent to the sort of people who are least likely
to go to prison. Eg nice law-abiding middle-class people obey the law
because they do not want to got to prison. It dosn't deter habitual
criminals for whom gotting to prison is just part of the lifestyle.


--
djc

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:13:54 +0000, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=AEi=A9ardo?=
wrote:

Do you feel the same way about a criminal who drives his car at 45 MPH
in a 40 MPH limit? It could result in death. Even parking in a
no-parking area could result in death.

Please cite a few examples.

Such imaginary scenarios are as easy to dream up as the imaginary
scenarios in this thread of a cable thief causing deaths.

A children's home is on fire. 136 children are trapped on the top
floor. The fire engine is delayed by 4.27 minutes due to a car being
double-parked on the access road. The delay results in 22 children
dying who would otherwise have been rescued.

You really want me to invent another few imaginary scenarios?

Heck, I could come up with a situation in which opening a window
caused the death of 100 people.

--
Cynic

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On Jan 25, 11:38*am, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...

I could make prison work.

Prison does work, prisoners don't offend against the public while they are
locked up.
All you need to do is keep the re-offenders in there.

Burying them works too.

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

In article 4f200299.948954125@localhost, Cynic wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:22:10 -0000, "'Mike'"
wrote:

All electrically operated life-support machines invariably have an
alternate power source that will switch in automatically in the event
of a mains failure.

Dream on!

Bill the emphasis is on "electrically operated life-support machines". Maybe
not in your home but in hospitals, .. yes.

It is *especially* true in the case of life support machines designed
to be used at home. Hospitals will always have staff on hand to
manually operate a ventilator etc. should the power fail, but the
designer of a life-support machine meant for home use cannot rely on
the fact that someone with the necessary knowlege will be on hand
within minutes in the event of a power cut, and so the design of
backup systems and fail-safe failure modes is even more important.

Any domestic life support machine that is designed so that it would
kill the patient in the event of a mains power outage would not be fit
for purpose.

That is true, but the general approach in this country is that
all that is needed is protection for long enough to call for an
ambulance. The same applies to 'first-aid' courses, which don't
even contemplate the possibility that you might be more than a
minute away from a telephone, let alone from a road.

It would not surprise me if the backup had a design time of only
a couple of hours. That isn't enough for any non-trivial trip,
including getting to the nearest shops in many cases.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Jan 25, 11:38 am, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...

I could make prison work.

Prison does work, prisoners don't offend against the public while they are
locked up.
All you need to do is keep the re-offenders in there.

Burying them works too.


How about flame throwers as well.

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On Jan 25, 12:11*pm, "Tim Downie" wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:
On Jan 24, 10:08 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
The Grey Man wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:42:39 +0000, Bill Wright
wrote:
All burglaries and assaults should result in an automatic
custodial sentence.
Bill
Of course you're right.
Alas, HMG keeps bellyaching on about how our prisons are full and
overcrowded.
Mostly with junkies and potheads who would be better off on NHS
dope.

or let them buy their own drugs, like other do with beer and cigs.
Well, exactly. and similar taxes - high enough to pay for the NHS but
not high enough to make smuggling them onto a black market viable.

Clearly cigs are overpriced then. *My wife asked some of her work colleagues
how they could afford to carry on smoking and they looked at her as if she
was mad. Apparently few smokers around here buy proper duty paid cigs but
buy them from dodgy blokes at car boot sales.

Tim

Those cigs are genersally even worse the the ones that have labels
saying they can kill.
The baccy is 3rd rate and they add chemicals, well even more than the
major companies do.

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:01:47 +0000, Steve Walker
wrote:

They fequently say that prison doesn't work and doesn't deter
re-offending. I've always wondered that even if prison doesn't work for
many of those incarcerated, do long sentences deter those that have
never been in trouble from getting into a life of crime in the first place?

Not significantly, no. In the first place, the average person who has
never been in trouble with the law is unlikely to have any idea what
the sentence is likely to be should he break a particular law. In the
second place, for anyone who is willing in principle to break a
particular (non-trivial) law, the decision whether or not to do so
will almost completely depend on how likely that person believes it is
that they will be caught.

--
Cynic

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

In article ,
djc wrote:
They fequently say that prison doesn't work and doesn't deter
re-offending. I've always wondered that even if prison doesn't work
for many of those incarcerated, do long sentences deter those that
have never been in trouble from getting into a life of crime in the
first place?


Prison works as a deterrent to the sort of people who are least likely
to go to prison. Eg nice law-abiding middle-class people obey the law
because they do not want to got to prison. It dosn't deter habitual
criminals for whom gotting to prison is just part of the lifestyle.

Quite. And someone lives on the streets, a spell in prison may not be as
much of a deterrent. Also those in desperate need of a fix simply don't
think of the future.

But I would hope the majority 'obey the law' because they feel it to be
the correct thing to do in a civilised society, rather than just to avoid
being punished. Although reading some of the posts here, I'm not so sure.
;-)

--
*Learn from your parents' mistakes - use birth control.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On Jan 25, 1:45*pm, Doctor Drivel
wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message

...
On Jan 25, 11:38 am, "dennis@home"
wrote:

"harry" wrote in message

....

I could make prison work.

Prison does work, prisoners don't offend against the public while they are
locked up.
All you need to do is keep the re-offenders in there.

Burying them works too.


How about flame throwers as well.

No idea has it been tried....

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Jan 25, 11:38 am, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...

I could make prison work.

Prison does work, prisoners don't offend against the public while they are
locked up.
All you need to do is keep the re-offenders in there.

Burying them works too.


How about flame throwers as well.

Angle grinder.

--
*Born free...Taxed to death.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

Cynic :
On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:43:51 +0000, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=AEi=A9ardo?=
wrote:

Not at all. But, if that "simple theft" does result in the death of an
innocent party, are you suggesting that we just accept it because that
wasn't the original intention? I would rather see you suggest that
criminals, major or minor, accept the consequences of their own actions,
especially if they impinge upon the lives of innocent people.

If, however, they manage to kill themselves in the course of their
illegal act it may serve as a warning to others.

Please remember that they have total freedom of choice in these matters
- their victims do not.

Do you feel the same way about a criminal who drives his car at 45 MPH
in a 40 MPH limit? It could result in death.

If 45 mph is too fast for the conditions, death could result. But the 40
mph speed limit is not relevant.

--
Mike Barnes

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:38:48 -0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

I could make prison work.

Prison does work, prisoners don't offend against the public while they are
locked up.
All you need to do is keep the re-offenders in there.

Ah. Someone who believes that every crime should carry a life
sentence. Try using your brain and try to figure out the consequences
of such a policy.

1) About 20% of the UK working population has a criminal record.
Having a life sentence for all crimes would therefore result in 1
person in 5 being in prison. That's a heck of a lot of prisons, and a
heck of a lot of non-productive people for everyone else to support.

2) Most people in prison can be trusted not to try to escape, because
the consequence of escaping is far worse than the consequence of
sitting out their sentence. If everyone was inside for life, there is
essentially nothing to lose, and riots and escape attempts would be
extremely frequent, requiring much higher (= more expensive) security
at all prisons.

3) Most people when caught committing a crime will submit to the
arrest and other processes without much resistance - because again the
likely consequence of resisting arrest is worse than the consequences
of submitting. If mass-murder carries the same sentence as
shoplifting, desperate criminals will put *everyone* at increased
risk.

--
Cynic

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:43:59 +0000, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:

En el artículo ,
Clive George escribió:

Don't talk ****e. Nobody is saying that there should be no punishment,
only that the death penalty is inappropriate.

The death penalty was self-inflicted in this case. Quite a different
matter from wishing to impose the death penalty on someone.

So would you express exactly the same attitude if the photograph
showed two incinerated children who died because they trespassed on a
railway line?

--
Cynic

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article om,
dennis@home wrote:
Prison does work, prisoners don't offend against the public while they
are
locked up.

All you need to do is keep the re-offenders in there.

It costs more than simply giving them a reasonable amount of money to live
on outside. Which makes it poor value for those paying the bills - ie the
taxpayer.

well if they are going to reoffend what else do you suggest?

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:44:31 +0000 (GMT), wrote:

Any domestic life support machine that is designed so that it would
kill the patient in the event of a mains power outage would not be fit
for purpose.

That is true, but the general approach in this country is that
all that is needed is protection for long enough to call for an
ambulance. The same applies to 'first-aid' courses, which don't
even contemplate the possibility that you might be more than a
minute away from a telephone, let alone from a road.

It would not surprise me if the backup had a design time of only
a couple of hours. That isn't enough for any non-trivial trip,
including getting to the nearest shops in many cases.

So long as it included an automatic and reliable call for human
assistance, it would not result in a fatality. There are plenty of
ways for providing such a call that are sufficiently reliable in the
fact of a power cut - at the very basic level it could simply be a
battery-operated siren to alert neighbours (who have been informed of
the situation).

People on home life-support will always have a carer, and the carer
will need to take account of any time limitations.

--
Cynic

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On 25/01/2012 13:42, Cynic wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:13:54 +0000, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=AEi=A9ardo?=
wrote:

Do you feel the same way about a criminal who drives his car at 45 MPH
in a 40 MPH limit? It could result in death. Even parking in a
no-parking area could result in death.

Please cite a few examples.

Such imaginary scenarios are as easy to dream up as the imaginary
scenarios in this thread of a cable thief causing deaths.



Did you miss the pictures at the start of this thread?

A children's home is on fire. 136 children are trapped on the top
floor. The fire engine is delayed by 4.27 minutes due to a car being
double-parked on the access road. The delay results in 22 children
dying who would otherwise have been rescued.

You really want me to invent another few imaginary scenarios?


It's seems to be all you're good for, so go ahead if that's what turns
you on.

Heck, I could come up with a situation in which opening a window
caused the death of 100 people.


I'm sure you could, but the fact remains that being an apologist for
criminals in action by claiming that "worse things happen at sea" shows
how out of touch with reality you are. They DID put life and limb at
risk, but luckily it did not go beyond their own.


--
Moving things in still pictures

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

"Cynic" wrote in message
news:4f200830.950384734@localhost...
On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:38:48 -0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

I could make prison work.

Prison does work, prisoners don't offend against the public while they are
locked up.
All you need to do is keep the re-offenders in there.

Ah. Someone who believes that every crime should carry a life
sentence.

Who? You?
I didn't say that.

Try using your brain and try to figure out the consequences
of such a policy.

Try reading what I said.

1) About 20% of the UK working population has a criminal record.
Having a life sentence for all crimes would therefore result in 1
person in 5 being in prison. That's a heck of a lot of prisons, and a
heck of a lot of non-productive people for everyone else to support.

How many of those are re-offenders?
Shirly not all of them.


2) Most people in prison can be trusted not to try to escape, because
the consequence of escaping is far worse than the consequence of
sitting out their sentence. If everyone was inside for life, there is
essentially nothing to lose, and riots and escape attempts would be
extremely frequent, requiring much higher (= more expensive) security
at all prisons.

Irrelevant.


3) Most people when caught committing a crime will submit to the
arrest and other processes without much resistance - because again the
likely consequence of resisting arrest is worse than the consequences
of submitting. If mass-murder carries the same sentence as
shoplifting, desperate criminals will put *everyone* at increased
risk.

So we need worse sentences for bad offences.
We could bring back the screw and let them generate power for their food.
The worse the offence the more they have to generate.
That should get the backing of the green party. 8-)

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

"Cynic" wrote in message
news:4f200e57.951959890@localhost...
On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:43:59 +0000, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:

En el artículo ,
Clive George escribió:

Don't talk ****e. Nobody is saying that there should be no punishment,
only that the death penalty is inappropriate.

The death penalty was self-inflicted in this case. Quite a different
matter from wishing to impose the death penalty on someone.

So would you express exactly the same attitude if the photograph
showed two incinerated children who died because they trespassed on a
railway line?

That would indicate that vandals had broken the security fences, etc. and
that police action was required to find them.

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On 25/01/2012 12:55, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In raweb.com,
wrote:
Prison does work, prisoners don't offend against the public while they are
locked up.

All you need to do is keep the re-offenders in there.

It costs more than simply giving them a reasonable amount of money to live
on outside. Which makes it poor value for those paying the bills - ie the
taxpayer.


OK, so you're in favour of allowing free-range crime because you don't
like the thought of punishment for criminals.

Your recurring themes demonstrate a totally inability to understand that
the rights of innocent people should be more important than those of
career - or even opportunist - criminals.

The fact is that whilst incarcerated such criminals are not making other
people's lives a misery by their actions, nor are they wasting the time
of the police and the courts and the victims. For those who, as a
consequence, do not get burgled, assaulted, killed, robbed, conned,
windows smashed, have their house burned down, or whatever, that must be
a bargain.



--
Moving things in still pictures

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On 25/01/2012 14:16, Cynic wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:43:59 +0000, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:

En el artículopvidnaWfzs3DR4PSnZ2dnUVZ8uKdnZ2d@brightvi ew.co.uk,
Clive escribió:

Don't talk ****e. Nobody is saying that there should be no punishment,
only that the death penalty is inappropriate.

The death penalty was self-inflicted in this case. Quite a different
matter from wishing to impose the death penalty on someone.

So would you express exactly the same attitude if the photograph
showed two incinerated children who died because they trespassed on a
railway line?


Straw man strikes again. Grow up for heaven's sake.

--
Moving things in still pictures

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

In article om,
dennis@home wrote:
It costs more than simply giving them a reasonable amount of money to
live on outside. Which makes it poor value for those paying the bills
- ie the taxpayer.

well if they are going to reoffend what else do you suggest?

Far more resources put into rehabilitation. Which would include support
after release.

--
*Your kid may be an honours student, but you're still an idiot.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

In article ,
®i©ardo wrote:
It costs more than simply giving them a reasonable amount of money to
live on outside. Which makes it poor value for those paying the bills
- ie the taxpayer.


OK, so you're in favour of allowing free-range crime because you don't
like the thought of punishment for criminals.

Try stating your own views rather than trying to put ridiculous views into
my mouth.

--
*You never really learn to swear until you learn to drive *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On 25/01/2012 14:04, Mike Barnes wrote:
:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:43:51 +0000, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=AEi=A9ardo?=
wrote:

Not at all. But, if that "simple theft" does result in the death of an
innocent party, are you suggesting that we just accept it because that
wasn't the original intention? I would rather see you suggest that
criminals, major or minor, accept the consequences of their own actions,
especially if they impinge upon the lives of innocent people.

If, however, they manage to kill themselves in the course of their
illegal act it may serve as a warning to others.

Please remember that they have total freedom of choice in these matters
- their victims do not.

Do you feel the same way about a criminal who drives his car at 45 MPH
in a 40 MPH limit? It could result in death.

If 45 mph is too fast for the conditions, death could result. But the 40
mph speed limit is not relevant.


It is TOTALLY relevant for the Straw Man. It helps him to feel included
when matters are being discussed which are beyond his comprehension. Red
herrings for tea.

--
Moving things in still pictures

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On 25/01/2012 15:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article18WdnQqOe9bXgL3SnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@giganews. com,
wrote:
It costs more than simply giving them a reasonable amount of money to
live on outside. Which makes it poor value for those paying the bills
- ie the taxpayer.


OK, so you're in favour of allowing free-range crime because you don't
like the thought of punishment for criminals.

Try stating your own views rather than trying to put ridiculous views into
my mouth.


I wasn't the one that put ridiculous views into your mouth, you seem
perfectly capable of doing that yourself.

--
Moving things in still pictures

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

In article ,
®i©ardo wrote:
On 25/01/2012 15:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article18WdnQqOe9bXgL3SnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@giganews. com,
wrote:
It costs more than simply giving them a reasonable amount of money to
live on outside. Which makes it poor value for those paying the bills
- ie the taxpayer.


OK, so you're in favour of allowing free-range crime because you don't
like the thought of punishment for criminals.

Try stating your own views rather than trying to put ridiculous views
into my mouth.


I wasn't the one that put ridiculous views into your mouth, you seem
perfectly capable of doing that yourself.

As a matter of interest, which group are you posting from?

Probably gardening. Do your plants talk to you?

--
*You can't have everything, where would you put it?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On 25/01/2012 16:09, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In articlefMWdnedNHamyv73SnZ2dnUVZ_tmdnZ2d@giganews. com,
wrote:
On 25/01/2012 15:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article18WdnQqOe9bXgL3SnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@giganews. com,
wrote:
It costs more than simply giving them a reasonable amount of money to
live on outside. Which makes it poor value for those paying the bills
- ie the taxpayer.


OK, so you're in favour of allowing free-range crime because you don't
like the thought of punishment for criminals.

Try stating your own views rather than trying to put ridiculous views
into my mouth.


I wasn't the one that put ridiculous views into your mouth, you seem
perfectly capable of doing that yourself.

As a matter of interest, which group are you posting from?

Probably gardening. Do your plants talk to you?


If they did they'd probably make a lot more sense than you do? You must
be a d-i-y man: Mr Bodge-It.

--
Moving things in still pictures

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:01:45 +0000, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=AEi=A9ardo?=
wrote:

Such imaginary scenarios are as easy to dream up as the imaginary
scenarios in this thread of a cable thief causing deaths.

Did you miss the pictures at the start of this thread?

No - the scenarios I refer to are those involving the thieves causing
deaths other than their own.

A children's home is on fire. 136 children are trapped on the top
floor. The fire engine is delayed by 4.27 minutes due to a car being
double-parked on the access road. The delay results in 22 children
dying who would otherwise have been rescued.

You really want me to invent another few imaginary scenarios?

It's seems to be all you're good for, so go ahead if that's what turns
you on.

It was yourself who asked me to do so.

Heck, I could come up with a situation in which opening a window
caused the death of 100 people.

I'm sure you could, but the fact remains that being an apologist for
criminals in action by claiming that "worse things happen at sea"

I don't see anyone acting as apologists, simply people who see no
reason to gloat over their deaths or believe that it is *good* that
they were killed.

--
Cynic

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:04:28 +0000, Mike Barnes
wrote:

Do you feel the same way about a criminal who drives his car at 45 MPH
in a 40 MPH limit? It could result in death.

If 45 mph is too fast for the conditions, death could result. But the 40
mph speed limit is not relevant.

This thread is about whether it is a "good thing" if criminals are
killed as a result of their criminal action, therefore whether or not
the driver's act was or was not criminal is indeed relevant to this
thread - and that in turn depends on the speed limit in force.

--
Cynic

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:03:29 -0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

I could make prison work.

Prison does work, prisoners don't offend against the public while they are
locked up.
All you need to do is keep the re-offenders in there.

Ah. Someone who believes that every crime should carry a life
sentence.

Who? You?
I didn't say that.

How else am I supposed to interpret your view that re-offenders
"should be kept in there [prison]"?

Try using your brain and try to figure out the consequences
of such a policy.

Try reading what I said.

I did. It is apparently yourself who is unable to see the obvious
consequence of your statement.

1) About 20% of the UK working population has a criminal record.
Having a life sentence for all crimes would therefore result in 1
person in 5 being in prison. That's a heck of a lot of prisons, and a
heck of a lot of non-productive people for everyone else to support.

How many of those are re-offenders?
Shirly not all of them.

Enough to make the result a very high proportion of the population.

2) Most people in prison can be trusted not to try to escape, because
the consequence of escaping is far worse than the consequence of
sitting out their sentence. If everyone was inside for life, there is
essentially nothing to lose, and riots and escape attempts would be
extremely frequent, requiring much higher (= more expensive) security
at all prisons.

Irrelevant.

Of course it is not irrelevant. It is *you* who will have to pay for
it!

3) Most people when caught committing a crime will submit to the
arrest and other processes without much resistance - because again the
likely consequence of resisting arrest is worse than the consequences
of submitting. If mass-murder carries the same sentence as
shoplifting, desperate criminals will put *everyone* at increased
risk.

So we need worse sentences for bad offences.
We could bring back the screw and let them generate power for their food.
The worse the offence the more they have to generate.
That should get the backing of the green party. 8-)

Yes, I'm sure you would be far more comfortable living in the
middle-ages. Or perhaps even less civilised - as a caveman?

--
cynic

Metal theft. The biters bit
 

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 15:04:38 -0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

So would you express exactly the same attitude if the photograph
showed two incinerated children who died because they trespassed on a
railway line?

That would indicate that vandals had broken the security fences, etc. and
that police action was required to find them.

How do you know it was not the children who did it?

--
Cynic