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#1
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Another question about communal sewage treatment plants
Where I live the sewage treatment plant recently broke down and needed
a new pump. Householders each had to pay a relatively small sum of money in order to avoid tapping into the contingency fund which is really there for replacing the entire plant in 20 years' time. And then a number of residents refused to pay, for whatever reason I don't know. Those who had paid got their money back and the bill for the new pump plus labour etc was paid from the contingency fund instead. It seems to me that many residents are just not aware of what might happen if the pump failed and was not replaced. Now, I don't know the details, but what if this did happen, what would the Environment Agency do? Obviously, at first there'd be some kind of warning (verbal, then letter) to the estate management, but thereafter? What powers does the Environment Agency have if sewage is backing up and overflowing because some residents are too stubborn to pay? I should think the EA has maximum powers, including sending in the local water company to pump out the sewage at some considerable cost to be borne by the residents. Can the EA declare the estate unfit for human habitation or some such? I am only a resident and am not on the management board, but I'm fed up with the constant argy-bargy that has been going on since I moved here in late 2004. I want to bring this up at the next annual meeting with some kind of impressive sounding message, of what the authorities could or would do in the event of an emergency, to try and put the fear of God into these late/non-payers. They all knew (they signed on the dotted line) what they would be responsible for when they moved to the estate, so there's no excuse. Also, many residents have new or nearly new cars so they are not exactly poor. A new plant for 40 houses would cost around £35k at today's prices.In 20 years from now it could be double or treble that, so building up the contingency fund is vital. MM |
#2
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Another question about communal sewage treatment plants
"MM" wrote in message ... Where I live the sewage treatment plant recently broke down and needed a new pump. Householders each had to pay a relatively small sum of money in order to avoid tapping into the contingency fund which is really there for replacing the entire plant in 20 years' time. And then a number of residents refused to pay, for whatever reason I don't know. Those who had paid got their money back and the bill for the new pump plus labour etc was paid from the contingency fund instead. Tell them that the people who paid money, instead of it buying a new pump due to the ****s who wouldent pay, had non return valves fitted to their sewer lines instead, and when the pump fails their sewage will flow into the main system, where it will back up into the houses of those who didnt get a non return valve |
#3
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Another question about communal sewage treatment plants
On 15/10/2011 09:29, MM wrote:
Where I live the sewage treatment plant recently broke down and needed a new pump. Householders each had to pay a relatively small sum of money in order to avoid tapping into the contingency fund which is really there for replacing the entire plant in 20 years' time. And then a number of residents refused to pay, for whatever reason I don't know. Those who had paid got their money back and the bill for the new pump plus labour etc was paid from the contingency fund instead. .... A new plant for 40 houses would cost around £35k at today's prices.In 20 years from now it could be double or treble that, so building up the contingency fund is vital. Does rhis imply the householders don't pay a sewage charge to the water companies? I'd not treat the money as a contingency fund for a new plant. There should be an annual charge, payable by all (possibly based on ratable value), which will cover all costs related to the sewage system. This includes maintenance costs and capital costs, ie building up reserves if necessary. You'd need something to administer this - whether it's an existing company or a new one. They'd need to be able to take out loans to pay for significant capital expenditure if their reserves were insufficient, or to insure for the same costs. When people balk at setting up such a thing, work out how much they'd pay for the sewage charge to a water company. Or of course get a utility to take on the whole thing for a one-off cost. |
#4
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Another question about communal sewage treatment plants
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 12:37:08 +0100, Clive George
wrote: On 15/10/2011 09:29, MM wrote: Where I live the sewage treatment plant recently broke down and needed a new pump. Householders each had to pay a relatively small sum of money in order to avoid tapping into the contingency fund which is really there for replacing the entire plant in 20 years' time. And then a number of residents refused to pay, for whatever reason I don't know. Those who had paid got their money back and the bill for the new pump plus labour etc was paid from the contingency fund instead. ... A new plant for 40 houses would cost around £35k at today's prices.In 20 years from now it could be double or treble that, so building up the contingency fund is vital. Does rhis imply the householders don't pay a sewage charge to the water companies? Correct. My water bill (singleton household) is around £90 a year. I'd not treat the money as a contingency fund for a new plant. There should be an annual charge, payable by all (possibly based on ratable value), which will cover all costs related to the sewage system. Oh, we do pay £375 each per year mainly to cover the emptying three times a year, plus electricity for the pumps and for the plant maintenance engineers to do their checks every so often, plus electricity for street lighting. What is left over goes into the contigency fund intended to fund the cost of replacement when the plant is due to be scrapped, not to fund emergency repairs that can fall due at any time. "Contingency" is perhaps not the right word to describe this fund, but everyone now knows it as such. This is the arrangement set out in legal documents that all residents sign when they agree to purchase a property so they haven't got a leg to stand on when they refuse to pay, or pay late. I'm told that the annual service charge will have to rise considerably for 2012 because of this latest reluctance by some to pay, and I expect that announcement will again be greeted by blank refusal by several residents. At least one person had to be taken to court before they paid the service charge, claiming they weren't liable because they had sub-let the property. This includes maintenance costs and capital costs, ie building up reserves if necessary. You'd need something to administer this - whether it's an existing company or a new one. They'd need to be able to take out loans to pay for significant capital expenditure if their reserves were insufficient, or to insure for the same costs. When people balk at setting up such a thing, work out how much they'd pay for the sewage charge to a water company. Last time I checked it would add around another 100 quid to my bill, and a lot more for families. But many people don't see beyond their noses. Mind you, I'd rather pay Anglian Water a 100 quid, plus say only 50 quid to the estate management, but we're miles from any mains drainage, so it's not an option. Or of course get a utility to take on the whole thing for a one-off cost. We already went down that road once, using a professional management company, and it was a shambles. People moving home couldn't get the right documents out of them in timely fashion for their solicitors to look at and so on. We were paying 20% VAT on electricity instead of 5% which is what we're now paying, and lots more besides. But it's just a few residents who ruin it for everybody else, sadly. One last thing: If ANYone is contemplating moving to an estate which depends on a private sewage treatment plant, my advice is to STAY AWAY! Just drive on, even if the house is fine in all other respects. It's not worth the continual hassle which has plagued this estate since 2004. MM |
#5
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Another question about communal sewage treatment plants
On Oct 15, 2:05*pm, MM wrote:
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 12:37:08 +0100, Clive George wrote: On 15/10/2011 09:29, MM wrote: Where I live the sewage treatment plant recently broke down and needed a new pump. Householders each had to pay a relatively small sum of money in order to avoid tapping into the contingency fund which is really there for replacing the entire plant in 20 years' time. And then a number of residents refused to pay, for whatever reason I don't know. Those who had paid got their money back and the bill for the new pump plus labour etc was paid from the contingency fund instead. ... A new plant for 40 houses would cost around 35k at today's prices.In 20 years from now it could be double or treble that, so building up the contingency fund is vital. Does rhis imply the householders don't pay a sewage charge to the water companies? Correct. My water bill (singleton household) is around 90 a year. I'd not treat the money as a contingency fund for a new plant. There should be an annual charge, payable by all (possibly based on ratable value), which will cover all costs related to the sewage system. Oh, we do pay 375 each per year mainly to cover the emptying three times a year, plus electricity for the pumps and for the plant maintenance engineers to do their checks every so often, plus electricity for street lighting. What is left over goes into the contigency fund intended to fund the cost of replacement when the plant is due to be scrapped, not to fund emergency repairs that can fall due at any time. "Contingency" is perhaps not the right word to describe this fund, but everyone now knows it as such. This is the arrangement set out in legal documents that all residents sign when they agree to purchase a property so they haven't got a leg to stand on when they refuse to pay, or pay late. I'm told that the annual service charge will have to rise considerably for 2012 because of this latest reluctance by some to pay, and I expect that announcement will again be greeted by blank refusal by several residents. At least one person had to be taken to court before they paid the service charge, claiming they weren't liable because they had sub-let the property. This includes maintenance costs and capital costs, ie building up reserves if necessary. You'd need something to administer this - whether it's an existing company or a new one. They'd need to be able to take out loans to pay for significant capital expenditure if their reserves were insufficient, or to insure for the same costs. When people balk at setting up such a thing, work out how much they'd pay for the sewage charge to a water company. Last time I checked it would add around another 100 quid to my bill, and a lot more for families. But many people don't see beyond their noses. Mind you, I'd rather pay Anglian Water a 100 quid, plus say only 50 quid to the estate management, but we're miles from any mains drainage, so it's not an option. Or of course get a utility to take on the whole thing for a one-off cost.. We already went down that road once, using a professional management company, and it was a shambles. People moving home couldn't get the right documents out of them in timely fashion for their solicitors to look at and so on. We were paying 20% VAT on electricity instead of 5% which is what we're now paying, and lots more besides. But it's just a few residents who ruin it for everybody else, sadly. One last thing: If ANYone is contemplating moving to an estate which depends on a private sewage treatment plant, my advice is to STAY AWAY! Just drive on, even if the house is fine in all other respects. It's not worth the continual hassle which has plagued this estate since 2004. MM- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I have my own septic tank. Needs MTing once every five years or so. There is no pump. You could always install one of these and withdraw from the commune. I am thinking about my own water system (Rainwater) |
#6
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Another question about communal sewage treatment plants
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 10:15:34 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote: On Oct 15, 2:05*pm, MM wrote: On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 12:37:08 +0100, Clive George wrote: On 15/10/2011 09:29, MM wrote: Where I live the sewage treatment plant recently broke down and needed a new pump. Householders each had to pay a relatively small sum of money in order to avoid tapping into the contingency fund which is really there for replacing the entire plant in 20 years' time. And then a number of residents refused to pay, for whatever reason I don't know. Those who had paid got their money back and the bill for the new pump plus labour etc was paid from the contingency fund instead. ... A new plant for 40 houses would cost around 35k at today's prices.In 20 years from now it could be double or treble that, so building up the contingency fund is vital. Does rhis imply the householders don't pay a sewage charge to the water companies? Correct. My water bill (singleton household) is around 90 a year. I'd not treat the money as a contingency fund for a new plant. There should be an annual charge, payable by all (possibly based on ratable value), which will cover all costs related to the sewage system. Oh, we do pay 375 each per year mainly to cover the emptying three times a year, plus electricity for the pumps and for the plant maintenance engineers to do their checks every so often, plus electricity for street lighting. What is left over goes into the contigency fund intended to fund the cost of replacement when the plant is due to be scrapped, not to fund emergency repairs that can fall due at any time. "Contingency" is perhaps not the right word to describe this fund, but everyone now knows it as such. This is the arrangement set out in legal documents that all residents sign when they agree to purchase a property so they haven't got a leg to stand on when they refuse to pay, or pay late. I'm told that the annual service charge will have to rise considerably for 2012 because of this latest reluctance by some to pay, and I expect that announcement will again be greeted by blank refusal by several residents. At least one person had to be taken to court before they paid the service charge, claiming they weren't liable because they had sub-let the property. This includes maintenance costs and capital costs, ie building up reserves if necessary. You'd need something to administer this - whether it's an existing company or a new one. They'd need to be able to take out loans to pay for significant capital expenditure if their reserves were insufficient, or to insure for the same costs. When people balk at setting up such a thing, work out how much they'd pay for the sewage charge to a water company. Last time I checked it would add around another 100 quid to my bill, and a lot more for families. But many people don't see beyond their noses. Mind you, I'd rather pay Anglian Water a 100 quid, plus say only 50 quid to the estate management, but we're miles from any mains drainage, so it's not an option. Or of course get a utility to take on the whole thing for a one-off cost. We already went down that road once, using a professional management company, and it was a shambles. People moving home couldn't get the right documents out of them in timely fashion for their solicitors to look at and so on. We were paying 20% VAT on electricity instead of 5% which is what we're now paying, and lots more besides. But it's just a few residents who ruin it for everybody else, sadly. One last thing: If ANYone is contemplating moving to an estate which depends on a private sewage treatment plant, my advice is to STAY AWAY! Just drive on, even if the house is fine in all other respects. It's not worth the continual hassle which has plagued this estate since 2004. MM- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I have my own septic tank. Needs MTing once every five years or so. There is no pump. You could always install one of these and withdraw from the commune. I don't think the original planning permission allowed for that. Several people have enquired, but got a big N O from the local authorities. MM |
#7
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Another question about communal sewage treatment plants
On 15/10/11 14:05, MM wrote:
One last thing: If ANYone is contemplating moving to an estate which depends on a private sewage treatment plant, my advice is to STAY AWAY! Just drive on, even if the house is fine in all other respects. It's not worth the continual hassle which has plagued this estate since 2004. +1 I've managed a small block of leasehold flats for over 25 years. If I succeed in moving before I'm carried out in a box, it won't be into anything that depend on such co-operative management structure. -- djc |
#8
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Another question about communal sewage treatment plants
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 18:23:34 +0100, djc wrote:
On 15/10/11 14:05, MM wrote: One last thing: If ANYone is contemplating moving to an estate which depends on a private sewage treatment plant, my advice is to STAY AWAY! Just drive on, even if the house is fine in all other respects. It's not worth the continual hassle which has plagued this estate since 2004. +1 I've managed a small block of leasehold flats for over 25 years. If I succeed in moving before I'm carried out in a box, it won't be into anything that depend on such co-operative management structure. Yes, well, originally I bought the property as a stop gap because I'd sold my house and this one seemed fine. I had only intended to be here for a few years after which I'd downsize to a 2-bed bungalow. That was the plan. I made extensive enquiries about the private sewage treatment plant, including in this newsgroup, and didn't get any serious warnings off, so I went ahead, thinking ah well, the plant is subject to legal agreements between residents so what can go wrong? That's before I (re-)discovered human nature! And then the recession and world market crash happened and now the house is worth less than I paid for it and hardly any houses are selling anyway, not just on this estate, but in rural Lincolnshire generally. Plus, bungalows, because they are sought after, are holding their price whereas houses are not, so the differential is nothing like as significant as it would have been if the housing market had carried on like it had been doing for two decades. So I'm pretty much resigned to staying put for at least another couple of years. This is partly why I'm so ****ed off with the few residents who keep ****ing INTO the tent, because if they'd only pay up when asked, as per the legal agreements they signed, then life would be sweet. The estate itself is excellent. Good quality builds and very tranquil place to retire to. After seven years much greenery has been established so that in spring and summer the estate looks really nice. MM |
#9
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Another question about communal sewage treatment plants
On Oct 16, 6:13*am, MM wrote:
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 18:23:34 +0100, djc wrote: On 15/10/11 14:05, MM wrote: One last thing: If ANYone is contemplating moving to an estate which depends on a private sewage treatment plant, my advice is to STAY AWAY! Just drive on, even if the house is fine in all other respects. It's not worth the continual hassle which has plagued this estate since 2004. +1 I've managed a small block of leasehold flats for over 25 years. If I succeed in moving before I'm carried out in a box, it won't be into anything that depend on such co-operative management structure. Yes, well, originally I bought the property as a stop gap because I'd sold my house and this one seemed fine. I had only intended to be here for a few years after which I'd downsize to a 2-bed bungalow. That was the plan. I made extensive enquiries about the private sewage treatment plant, including in this newsgroup, and didn't get any serious warnings off, so I went ahead, thinking ah well, the plant is subject to legal agreements between residents so what can go wrong? That's before I (re-)discovered human nature! And then the recession and world market crash happened and now the house is worth less than I paid for it and hardly any houses are selling anyway, not just on this estate, but in rural Lincolnshire generally. Plus, bungalows, because they are sought after, are holding their price whereas houses are not, so the differential is nothing like as significant as it would have been if the housing market had carried on like it had been doing for two decades. So I'm pretty much resigned to staying put for at least another couple of years. This is partly why I'm so ****ed off with the few residents who keep ****ing INTO the tent, because if they'd only pay up when asked, as per the legal agreements they signed, then life would be sweet. The estate itself is excellent. Good quality builds and very tranquil place to retire to. After seven years much greenery has been established so that in spring and summer the estate looks really nice. MM I once lived in a house with a communal driveway/road. Never again. |
#10
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Another question about communal sewage treatment plants
On 16/10/11 06:13, MM wrote:
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 18:23:34 +0100, djc wrote: On 15/10/11 14:05, MM wrote: One last thing: If ANYone is contemplating moving to an estate which depends on a private sewage treatment plant, my advice is to STAY AWAY! Just drive on, even if the house is fine in all other respects. It's not worth the continual hassle which has plagued this estate since 2004. +1 I've managed a small block of leasehold flats for over 25 years. If I succeed in moving before I'm carried out in a box, it won't be into anything that depend on such co-operative management structure. Yes, well, originally I bought the property as a stop gap because I'd sold my house and this one seemed fine. I had only intended to be here for a few years after which I'd downsize to a 2-bed bungalow. That was the plan. I made extensive enquiries about the private sewage treatment plant, including in this newsgroup, and didn't get any serious warnings off, so I went ahead, thinking ah well, the plant is subject to legal agreements between residents so what can go wrong? That's before I (re-)discovered human nature! And then the recession and world market crash happened and now the house is worth less than I paid for it and hardly any houses are selling anyway, not just on this estate, but in rural Lincolnshire generally. Plus, bungalows, because they are sought after, are holding their price whereas houses are not, so the differential is nothing like as significant as it would have been if the housing market had carried on like it had been doing for two decades. On the one hand if the manic desire of everybody to move house every few years is tamed by the recession more people will be around long enough to care about the long term consequences of not maintaining the property. OTOH not moving means people wont be forced to pay up because they need the paperwork in order before the sale can be completed. So I'm pretty much resigned to staying put for at least another couple of years. This is partly why I'm so ****ed off with the few residents who keep ****ing INTO the tent, because if they'd only pay up when asked, as per the legal agreements they signed, then life would be sweet. The estate itself is excellent. Good quality builds and very tranquil place to retire to. After seven years much greenery has been established so that in spring and summer the estate looks really nice. MM -- djc |
#11
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Another question about communal sewage treatment plants
MM wrote:
Where I live the sewage treatment plant recently broke down and needed a new pump. Householders each had to pay a relatively small sum of money in order to avoid tapping into the contingency fund which is really there for replacing the entire plant in 20 years' time. And then a number of residents refused to pay, for whatever reason I don't know. Those who had paid got their money back and the bill for the new pump plus labour etc was paid from the contingency fund instead. And therein lies the truth. Given any random bunch of neighbours, a non trivial percentage will be tightwads. The only way I would entertain such a "system" is that everyone pays a tiny monthy fee into a fund in a legally watertight way that means non payers can quickly be dealt with. If there's ever a significant operational surplus, pay everyone back a "bonus". -- Tim Watts |
#12
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Another question about communal sewage treatment plants
Tim Watts wrote:
MM wrote: Where I live the sewage treatment plant recently broke down and needed a new pump. Householders each had to pay a relatively small sum of money in order to avoid tapping into the contingency fund which is really there for replacing the entire plant in 20 years' time. And then a number of residents refused to pay, for whatever reason I don't know. Those who had paid got their money back and the bill for the new pump plus labour etc was paid from the contingency fund instead. And therein lies the truth. Given any random bunch of neighbours, a non trivial percentage will be tightwads. Well the OP will not give you the steam off his ****. Does that make him a tightwad? -- Adam |
#13
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Another question about communal sewage treatment plants
ARWadsworth wrote:
Tim Watts wrote: MM wrote: Where I live the sewage treatment plant recently broke down and needed a new pump. Householders each had to pay a relatively small sum of money in order to avoid tapping into the contingency fund which is really there for replacing the entire plant in 20 years' time. And then a number of residents refused to pay, for whatever reason I don't know. Those who had paid got their money back and the bill for the new pump plus labour etc was paid from the contingency fund instead. And therein lies the truth. Given any random bunch of neighbours, a non trivial percentage will be tightwads. Well the OP will not give you the steam off his ****. Does that make him a tightwad? No, it makes me grateful ;- -- Tim Watts |
#14
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Another question about communal sewage treatment plants
MM wrote:
Where I live the sewage treatment plant recently broke down and needed a new pump. Householders each had to pay a relatively small sum of money in order to avoid tapping into the contingency fund which is really there for replacing the entire plant in 20 years' time. And then a number of residents refused to pay, for whatever reason I don't know. Those who had paid got their money back and the bill for the new pump plus labour etc was paid from the contingency fund instead. I suggest that you start a campain to make everyone weigh their own ****s. That way the bills can be divided in a more acurate way according to the mass of the turds. You of course will then have to pay nothing as you a are full of ****. -- Adam |
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