http://www.which.co.uk/environment-and-saving-energy/environment-and-greener-living/guides/10-eco-products-you-dont-need/

No surprises there.

--
Adam

"ARWadsworth" wrote:
http://www.which.co.uk/environment-and-saving-energy/environment-and-greener-living/guides/10-eco-products-you-dont-need/

No surprises there.


Heh! My prediction that the egg shaped waste of money would be there paid
off

On 21/07/2011 11:04, ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.which.co.uk/environment-and-saving-energy/environment-and-greener-living/guides/10-eco-products-you-dont-need/

No surprises there.

Except that there are only 10.

Colin Bignell

ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.which.co.uk/environment-and-saving-energy/environment-and-greener-living/guides/10-eco-products-you-dont-need/

No surprises there.

The forgot to include windmills, solar PV..hybrid cars...

ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.which.co.uk/environment-and-saving-energy/environment-and-greener-living/guides/10-eco-products-you-dont-need/

No surprises there.


One thing 10 - plastic film - *can* do on a single-glazed wood door is
completely banish condensation. I reckon it helps a bit too with
insulation.

Andy C

On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 15:34:18 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2011-07-21, Andy Cap wrote:
ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.which.co.uk/environment-a...vironment-and-
greener-living/guides/10-eco-products-you-dont-need/

No surprises there.


One thing 10 - plastic film - *can* do on a single-glazed wood door is
completely banish condensation. I reckon it helps a bit too with
insulation.

It certainly helped when I lived in the world's coldest garret in Herne
Bay when I was at college.

I wasn't. For that you would have had to live on Central Parade, not
Queens Gardens (unless you did that as well).



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.which.co.uk/environment-and-saving-energy/environment-and-...

"Energy saving light bulbs"

They're not bulbs!!!! Are they blind? They're loops, spirals and
helixes.

I'd be seriously worried if my tulip bulbs looked like that.

JGH

"Andy Cap" wrote in message
news
ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.which.co.uk/environment-and-saving-energy/environment-and-greener-living/guides/10-eco-products-you-dont-need/

No surprises there.


One thing 10 - plastic film - *can* do on a single-glazed wood door is
completely banish condensation. I reckon it helps a bit too with
insulation.

Typically of which they only tell half the truth..
the plastic film is nearly as good as double glazing if it is draught
proofed before you fit it.
The insulating properties of double glazing rely on the layers of still air
that form on the inner surfaces.
There is no reason why they don't form on the filmed windows if its draught
proof and about 20 mm gap.
Sticking it over the whole frame including the draughty openings would be
typical of what which do.

Andy C

On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 16:50:39 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2011-07-21, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 15:34:18 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2011-07-21, Andy Cap wrote:
ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.which.co.uk/environment-a...y/environment-
and-
greener-living/guides/10-eco-products-you-dont-need/

No surprises there.


One thing 10 - plastic film - *can* do on a single-glazed wood door
is completely banish condensation. I reckon it helps a bit too with
insulation.

It certainly helped when I lived in the world's coldest garret in
Herne Bay when I was at college.

I wasn't.

"It wasn't"?

Yep, my typo.

For that you would have had to live on Central Parade, not Queens
Gardens (unless you did that as well).

TBH, I can't remember where it was. (*) I just remember being cold. I
had a paraffin heater that I ran 24x7 in the winter. Even at night and
when I wasn't there. Terrifying.

(* I couldn't find it when I went back a few years ago...)

http://tinyurl.com/3kmkrja

At least you were back from the sea. Central Parade is much worse...and
even people living in Charles Street (one back) freeze if on the top
floor, exposed to the north wind!
--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

Andy Cap wrote:
ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.which.co.uk/environment-and-saving-energy/environment-and-greener-living/guides/10-eco-products-you-dont-need/

No surprises there.


One thing 10 - plastic film - *can* do on a single-glazed wood door is
completely banish condensation. I reckon it helps a bit too with
insulation.


Yebut, this is uk.d-i-y. We can do it for less than £8: per window:-)

--
Adam

On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 18:38:43 +0100, dennis@home wrote:
Typically of which they only tell half the truth.. the plastic film is
nearly as good as double glazing if it is draught proofed before you fit
it.
The insulating properties of double glazing rely on the layers of still
air that form on the inner surfaces.
There is no reason why they don't form on the filmed windows if its
draught proof and about 20 mm gap.
Sticking it over the whole frame including the draughty openings would
be typical of what which do.

Yes, it's pretty common up here (the wilds of northern Minnesota) where
winter temps can easily hit -30C and where many houses still have old,
wooden-framed windows which leak air quite badly. It does seem to help,
although I don't know how much of it is down to double-glazing effect and
how much is simply due to keeping the draughts out. Generally, people buy
it when it gets cold and take it off again for the warmer months, so it
doesn't have to be that durable.

cheers

Jules

On Jul 21, 4:34 pm, Huge wrote:
On 2011-07-21, Andy Cap wrote:

ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.which.co.uk/environment-and-saving-energy/environment-and-...

No surprises there.

One thing 10 - plastic film - *can* do on a single-glazed wood door is
completely banish condensation. I reckon it helps a bit too with
insulation.

It certainly helped when I lived in the world's coldest garret in Herne
Bay when I was at college.

--
Today is Boomtime, the 56th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3177
Sing, for song drives away the wolves.

indeed i used the stuff to triple glaze some windows in an appallingly
energy-wasting design of a 60s flat i rented after uni - worked well
enough & was still there intact when i left 5 yrs later

Jim K

On Jul 21, 6:38*pm, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"Andy Cap" wrote in message

news
ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.which.co.uk/environment-and-saving-energy/environment-and-....

No surprises there.

One thing 10 - plastic film - *can* do on a single-glazed wood door is
completely banish condensation. I reckon it helps a bit too with
insulation.

Typically of which they only tell half the truth..
the plastic film is nearly as good as double glazing if it is draught
proofed before you fit it.
The insulating properties of double glazing rely on the layers of still air
that form on the inner surfaces.
There is no reason why they don't form on the filmed windows if its draught
proof and about 20 mm gap.
Sticking it over the whole frame including the draughty openings would be
typical of what which do.



Andy C

The article is a nice start, but a bit too airheaded.

Glazing film for instance - it *is* double glazing, or draught
proofing, depending how its applied. Either saves noticeable energy.

Ecobutton: windows is easily told to hibernate, so I'm not sure how
useful an ecobutton really is.
Radiator booster: these have their use, but dont save any energy.
Dg saves £ but isnt worth it. secondary glazing is


NT

In article
,
NT wrote:
Radiator booster: these have their use, but dont save any energy.

They might well in practice save costs by distributing heat around the
room more evenly.

--
*Elephants are the only mammals that can't jump *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:54:50 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:

Ecobutton: windows is easily told to hibernate, so I'm not sure how
useful an ecobutton really is.

Lots of keyborads already have an "ecobutton" it's marked "sleep" and
has a pictogram of a cresent moon on it. That can be set to send the
machine into powered down mode when pressed, that may even be the
default.

Dg saves £ but isnt worth it. secondary glazing is

Depends on the sate of your windows... The glazing in on the verge of
falling out of some of ours. DG is well worth it to stop the drafts.
Secondary glazing is a PITA, stops you opening the windows without
faffing about with it. You get condensation in the gap, which hastens
rot in timber window frames.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Jul 22, 11:31 am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:54:50 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:
Ecobutton: windows is easily told to hibernate, so I'm not sure how
useful an ecobutton really is.

Lots of keyborads already have an "ecobutton" it's marked "sleep" and
has a pictogram of a cresent moon on it. That can be set to send the
machine into powered down mode when pressed, that may even be the
default.

Dg saves £ but isnt worth it. secondary glazing is

Depends on the sate of your windows... The glazing in on the verge of
falling out of some of ours. DG is well worth it to stop the drafts.
Secondary glazing is a PITA, stops you opening the windows without
faffing about with it. You get condensation in the gap, which hastens
rot in timber window frames.

shurely secondary glazing should *reduce* the amount of condensation
and so slow down the rotting of single glazed timber frames?

Jim K

On Jul 22, 11:48*am, Jim K wrote:
On Jul 22, 11:31 am, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:



On Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:54:50 -0700 (PDT), NT wrote:
Ecobutton: windows is easily told to hibernate, so I'm not sure how
useful an ecobutton really is.

Lots of keyborads already have an "ecobutton" it's marked "sleep" and
has a pictogram of a cresent moon on it. That can be set to send the
machine into powered down mode when pressed, that may even be the
default.

Dg saves £ but isnt worth it. secondary glazing is

Depends on the sate of your windows... The glazing in on the verge of
falling out of some of ours. DG is well worth it to stop the drafts.
Secondary glazing is a PITA, stops you opening the windows without
faffing about with it.

This is a very common mistake. If fitted to the opening light it has
no effect on openability. Why so many people insist on making their
windows unopenable I dont know.


You get condensation in the gap, which hastens
rot in timber window frames.

shurely secondary glazing should *reduce* the amount of condensation
and so slow down the rotting of single glazed timber frames?

Jim K

It reduces the /rate/ of condensation. But with no way to dry out, it
stays wet, and no ventilation, rot can sometimes result.


NT

On Jul 22, 12:52 pm, NT wrote:
On Jul 22, 11:48 am, Jim K wrote:
You get condensation in the gap, which hastens
rot in timber window frames.

shurely secondary glazing should *reduce* the amount of condensation
and so slow down the rotting of single glazed timber frames?

Jim K

It reduces the /rate/ of condensation. But with no way to dry out, it
stays wet, and no ventilation, rot can sometimes result.

NT

erm...you're assuming the secondary stuff was installed when the
window glass/frame was wet....?? or else if moisture can get in
between then shurely it can migrate out too?

Jim K

On Fri, 22 Jul 2011 06:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Jim K wrote:

shurely secondary glazing should *reduce* the amount of
condensation
and so slow down the rotting of single glazed timber frames?

It reduces the /rate/ of condensation. But with no way to dry out,
it
stays wet, and no ventilation, rot can sometimes result.

erm...you're assuming the secondary stuff was installed when the
window glass/frame was wet....?? or else if moisture can get in
between then shurely it can migrate out too?

It gets in as water vapour from the warm (aka relatively wet) air of
the room. It does get out but hangs around far longer than it would
if the secondary glazing wasn't there. Remember the air in the gap
will be cooler than that of the room so won't "hold" as much water.

I speak from experience of two different sets of secondary glazing
both suffered condensation in the gap, both made it difficult to open
the windows(*), both caused the frames to rot.

(*) Yep it could be installed onto the frame of an opener but then
you don't stop the draughts from around the openers frame...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Jul 22, 3:49 pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2011 06:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Jim K wrote:
shurely secondary glazing should *reduce* the amount of
condensation
and so slow down the rotting of single glazed timber frames?

It reduces the /rate/ of condensation. But with no way to dry out,
it
stays wet, and no ventilation, rot can sometimes result.

erm...you're assuming the secondary stuff was installed when the
window glass/frame was wet....?? or else if moisture can get in
between then shurely it can migrate out too?

It gets in as water vapour from the warm (aka relatively wet) air of
the room. It does get out but hangs around far longer than it would
if the secondary glazing wasn't there. Remember the air in the gap
will be cooler than that of the room so won't "hold" as much water.

what I don't get is how it can be any worse than single glazed
glass.... in winter our SG sashes are awash and usually need
squeegeeing in the morning. One bathroom (with a sash winda) is
secondaried with one sheet of acrylic sheet fixed to the outermost
part of the box sash frame = huge reduction in condensation....

Jim K

NT wrote:
On Jul 21, 6:38 pm, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"Andy Cap" wrote in message

news
ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.which.co.uk/environment-and-saving-energy/environment-and-...

No surprises there.

One thing 10 - plastic film - *can* do on a single-glazed wood door
is completely banish condensation. I reckon it helps a bit too with
insulation.

Typically of which they only tell half the truth..
the plastic film is nearly as good as double glazing if it is draught
proofed before you fit it.
The insulating properties of double glazing rely on the layers of
still air that form on the inner surfaces.
There is no reason why they don't form on the filmed windows if its
draught proof and about 20 mm gap.
Sticking it over the whole frame including the draughty openings
would be typical of what which do.



Andy C

The article is a nice start, but a bit too airheaded.

Glazing film for instance - it *is* double glazing, or draught
proofing, depending how its applied. Either saves noticeable energy.


There are much cheaper options for draught proofing.

--
Adam

On 21/07/2011 11:04, ARWadsworth wrote:
http://www.which.co.uk/environment-and-saving-energy/environment-and-greener-living/guides/10-eco-products-you-dont-need/

No surprises there.

Only one I would disagree with is the "Mira Eco Shower Saver Head" or
whatever it's called....

I fitted one of these (cost about half of the rrp stated)
The idea wasn't specifically to save water but to save "flow" and energy
used to heat water.
Initially it had a deafening vibration but the simple addition of the
supplied pressure reducer (plastic blanking thing with an o-ring) fitted
in-line at the start of the shower pipe stopped all vibrations and made
it sound like a normal shower again.

Main and very real benefit with the head is I can now run both showers
at the same time (upstairs and downstairs) off the same combi-boiler
with no temperature of pressure fluctuations and plenty of "apparent"
water for a great "full shower" experience.

It's way more than just a "water saving device" it's brilliant!!

Would never have bought one for the full "price fixed" rrp though..

P.

--
http://www.GymRatZ.co.uk - Fitness+Gym Equipment.
http://www.bodysolid-gym-equipment.co.uk
http://www.trade-price-supplements.co.uk
http://www.water-rower.co.uk

On Jul 22, 4:09*pm, Jim K wrote:
On Jul 22, 3:49 pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2011 06:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Jim K wrote:

shurely secondary glazing should *reduce* the amount of
condensation
and so slow down the rotting of single glazed timber frames?

It reduces the /rate/ of condensation. But with no way to dry out,
it
stays wet, and no ventilation, rot can sometimes result.

erm...you're assuming the secondary stuff was installed when the
window glass/frame was wet....??

no

or else if moisture can get in
between then shurely it can migrate out too?

yes, but only very slowly. The result is it can fail to dry out in
some cases.


It gets in as water vapour from the warm (aka relatively wet) air of
the room. It does get out but hangs around far longer than it would
if the secondary glazing wasn't there. Remember the air in the gap
will be cooler than that of the room so won't "hold" as much water.

what I don't get is how it can be any worse than single glazed
glass.... in winter our SG sashes are awash and usually need
squeegeeing in the morning.

But if they dry out during teh day, no mould.


NT

On Jul 22, 7:15 pm, NT wrote:
On Jul 22, 4:09 pm, Jim K wrote:

On Jul 22, 3:49 pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Fri, 22 Jul 2011 06:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Jim K wrote:
shurely secondary glazing should *reduce* the amount of
condensation
and so slow down the rotting of single glazed timber frames?

It reduces the /rate/ of condensation. But with no way to dry out,
it
stays wet, and no ventilation, rot can sometimes result.

erm...you're assuming the secondary stuff was installed when the
window glass/frame was wet....??

no

or else if moisture can get in
between then shurely it can migrate out too?

yes, but only very slowly. The result is it can fail to dry out in
some cases.

It gets in as water vapour from the warm (aka relatively wet) air of
the room. It does get out but hangs around far longer than it would
if the secondary glazing wasn't there. Remember the air in the gap
will be cooler than that of the room so won't "hold" as much water.

what I don't get is how it can be any worse than single glazed
glass.... in winter our SG sashes are awash and usually need
squeegeeing in the morning.

But if they dry out during teh day, no mould.

dry out? in winter? nah.
differential min 15deg across 4mm glass & 4 humans and a dog inside ?
unlikely IME.

Jim K

In article ,
Jules Richardson writes:
On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 18:38:43 +0100, dennis@home wrote:
Typically of which they only tell half the truth.. the plastic film is
nearly as good as double glazing if it is draught proofed before you fit
it.
The insulating properties of double glazing rely on the layers of still
air that form on the inner surfaces.
There is no reason why they don't form on the filmed windows if its
draught proof and about 20 mm gap.
Sticking it over the whole frame including the draughty openings would
be typical of what which do.

Yes, it's pretty common up here (the wilds of northern Minnesota) where
winter temps can easily hit -30C and where many houses still have old,
wooden-framed windows which leak air quite badly. It does seem to help,
although I don't know how much of it is down to double-glazing effect and
how much is simply due to keeping the draughts out. Generally, people buy
it when it gets cold and take it off again for the warmer months, so it
doesn't have to be that durable.

The only single glazing I have is a pane of glass over the front
door. 25 years ago, I put a piece of that film across it and it's
been there ever since, still in perfect condition. Actually, I
accidentally prodded it with the vacuum cleaner nossle today, but
it didn't do any damage, fortunately.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jules Richardson writes:
On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 18:38:43 +0100, dennis@home wrote:
Typically of which they only tell half the truth.. the plastic film is
nearly as good as double glazing if it is draught proofed before you fit
it.
The insulating properties of double glazing rely on the layers of still
air that form on the inner surfaces.
There is no reason why they don't form on the filmed windows if its
draught proof and about 20 mm gap.
Sticking it over the whole frame including the draughty openings would
be typical of what which do.

Yes, it's pretty common up here (the wilds of northern Minnesota) where
winter temps can easily hit -30C and where many houses still have old,
wooden-framed windows which leak air quite badly. It does seem to help,
although I don't know how much of it is down to double-glazing effect and
how much is simply due to keeping the draughts out. Generally, people buy
it when it gets cold and take it off again for the warmer months, so it
doesn't have to be that durable.

The only single glazing I have is a pane of glass over the front
door. 25 years ago, I put a piece of that film across it and it's
been there ever since, still in perfect condition. Actually, I
accidentally prodded it with the vacuum cleaner nossle today, but
it didn't do any damage, fortunately.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Having been a visitor to relations in Finland, I was interested to see that
they have treble glazing with about an inch between the outside pane and the
middle one. No doubt at some time in the future
when we've all got double glazing, some government official will start
suggesting treble glazing,

Robbie

"Roberts" wrote in message
...


Having been a visitor to relations in Finland, I was interested to see
that they have treble glazing with about an inch between the outside pane
and the middle one. No doubt at some time in the future
when we've all got double glazing, some government official will start
suggesting treble glazing,

Each inner surface can support a ~10 mm layer of stationary air. This is
what provides most of the insulation.
So triple glazing will have four internal layers of air and will double the
insulating value of the windows (assuming the units are 24 mm thicker). It
doesn't need to be glass, there are some triple glazed units with a plastic
film inner pane, they are lighter and thinner.

Triple glazing should allow bigger windows that still meet building regs
thermal requirements.

On Sat, 23 Jul 2011 08:37:08 +0100 Roberts wrote :
Having been a visitor to relations in Finland, I was interested to see
that they have treble glazing with about an inch between the outside pane
and the middle one. No doubt at some time in the future
when we've all got double glazing, some government official will start
suggesting treble glazing,

It's been an option for ages. The more recent UK Part Ls for new homes
require the calculated CO2 to be no more than that for a house of identical
size constructed to a given spec. If you so choose you can use triple
glazing to reduce your CO2 giving you a bit more slack somewhere else.
Choosing triple glazing probably makes more sense on northern elevations as
it cuts heat losses but also reduces solar gain and light transmission,
both of which are factored into the CO2 calc.

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on',
Melbourne, Australia www.greentram.com

On 7/24/2011 12:11 AM, dennis@home wrote:

So triple glazing will have four internal layers of air

Four???

S Viemeister wrote:

On 7/24/2011 12:11 AM, dennis@home wrote:

So triple glazing will have four internal layers of air

Four???

|1 | |
| 2| |
| |3 |
| | 4|

On Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:09:19 -0700 (PDT), Jim K wrote:

It gets in as water vapour from the warm (aka relatively wet) air
of
the room. It does get out but hangs around far longer than it
would
if the secondary glazing wasn't there. Remember the air in the gap
will be cooler than that of the room so won't "hold" as much
water.

what I don't get is how it can be any worse than single glazed
glass.... in winter our SG sashes are awash and usually need
squeegeeing in the morning.

Even if you didn't there is air circulation and fairly warm air at
that which will evaporate the moisture. With secondary glazing there
is sod all air circulation and the air will be cooler, the water
doesn't evaporate and seeps into the frame causing it to rot.

--
Cheers
Dave.