I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony fixing
I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly wind-prone
gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?

TIA

Al

On 15/07/2011 15:38, AL_n wrote:
I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony fixing
I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly wind-prone
gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?

TIA

Al

You are joking right? :-) I hope the ones you installed are not high up
and you kill someone.

C.

On 15 Jul 2011 14:38:48 GMT, AL_n wrote:

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly
wind-prone gable end.

Define "slighly wind-prone", how much the glass in the curent window
flex in reponse to gusts? Our old single glazed and over 3' square
windows would flex about 1/2", t'was rather alarming watching it. The
new 22mm DG units only about 1/4" but they are a different shape
about 1'6" high and 3' wide.

Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?

For our windows they have frame fixings. Foam alone in less exposed
locations is probably OK but it will flex and move thus may reduce
the life of any silicone to building joint.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Charles wrote:

On 15/07/2011 15:38, AL_n wrote:
I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony
fixing I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly
wind-prone gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame
in place?

TIA

Al

You are joking right? :-) I hope the ones you installed are not high up
and you kill someone.

C.

It's a recognised method. I don't like it but it's not as unusual as you
think...

I go for frame fixings plus foam - the foam certainly firms it up.

--
Tim Watts

AL_n wrote:
I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony fixing
I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly wind-prone
gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?


yes.

TIA

Al

On 15/07/2011 17:01, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/07/2011 15:38, AL_n wrote:
I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony
fixing
I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly
wind-prone
gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?

Builders frequently do fix windows with foam (a full circumference bond
of polyurethane adhesive in effect - so very solid fix).

However a few traditional frame fixings helps achieve and maintain the
desired position prior to foaming.


Usually just wedges that keep the frame in place. Frame fixings, if any,
are done when the foam has cured. At least that's the way all the
fitters I've seen have done it.

stuart noble wrote:

On 15/07/2011 17:01, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/07/2011 15:38, AL_n wrote:
I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony
fixing
I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly
wind-prone
gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?

Builders frequently do fix windows with foam (a full circumference bond
of polyurethane adhesive in effect - so very solid fix).

However a few traditional frame fixings helps achieve and maintain the
desired position prior to foaming.


Usually just wedges that keep the frame in place. Frame fixings, if any,
are done when the foam has cured. At least that's the way all the
fitters I've seen have done it.

Last pro fitter I same frame fixed then foamed - so it's obviously a matter
of personal preference.
--
Tim Watts

The Natural Philosopher wrote in news:ivpqdg$mv6$2
@news.albasani.net:

yes.

It sure saves a lot of faffing about! I wasn't sure about the longevity of
foam though. I know it's a good adhesive when new, but I wonder if it
weakens with age.

Al

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in
ll.co.uk:

On 15 Jul 2011 14:38:48 GMT, AL_n wrote:

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly
wind-prone gable end.

Define "slighly wind-prone", how much the glass in the curent window
flex in reponse to gusts?

I've never noticed the 3-ft square pane in the old window flexing, but then
I never really looked. I know one thing: the frame cannot blow inwards. So
it would have to get sucked outwards, which I is difficult to imagine! I
think the roof tiles would blow away first. I think I'll quit worrying.

Thanks to all for the input,

Al

On Jul 15, 3:38*pm, "AL_n" wrote:
I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony fixing
I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly wind-prone
gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?

TIA

Al

On small windows probably ok.
However I would put screws in purely as a security issue. It only
takes a bread knife to cut the foam and get in and burgle the place
without. Completely silent too.

John Rumm wrote in
o.uk:


Its degraded by exposure to UV, so needs to be kept out of the light.
However in this application none of it will remain visible so that's
not a problem.


Great - thanks.

On 15 Jul 2011 18:47:47 GMT, AL_n wrote:

Define "slighly wind-prone", how much the glass in the curent
window
flex in reponse to gusts?

I've never noticed the 3-ft square pane in the old window flexing, but
then I never really looked.

You probably don't get the winds we do at 1400' and exposed. Gale
Force 8 (above 40mph sustained) happens several times a year gusts
with those are into the low 50's mph. Every so often it'll really
blow F10 55mph sustained gusts above 60mph.

F8 isn't pleasant, rain is painful, hard to stand up and move
sensibly about. F10 with gusts is down right dangerous, you have to
lean so far into the wind that you are unstable, sudden drop in wind
and you bite the dirt. Wind picks back up and you are quite likely to
get bowled over. Needless to say we don't go out unless we have to in
anything much above F7.

The all trees by us the nearby have the windswept curved look...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Jul 15, 7:48 pm, harry wrote:
On Jul 15, 3:38 pm, "AL_n" wrote:

I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony fixing
I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly wind-prone
gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?

TIA

Al

On small windows probably ok.
However I would put screws in purely as a security issue. It only
takes a bread knife to cut the foam and get in and burgle the place
without. Completely silent too.

you assume much - including that "they" know it's worth bothering to
try?!

Jim K

On 7/15/2011 9:41 PM, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 15 Jul 2011 18:47:47 GMT, AL_n wrote:

Define "slighly wind-prone", how much the glass in the curent
window
flex in reponse to gusts?

I've never noticed the 3-ft square pane in the old window flexing, but
then I never really looked.

You probably don't get the winds we do at 1400' and exposed. Gale
Force 8 (above 40mph sustained) happens several times a year gusts
with those are into the low 50's mph. Every so often it'll really
blow F10 55mph sustained gusts above 60mph.

F8 isn't pleasant, rain is painful, hard to stand up and move
sensibly about. F10 with gusts is down right dangerous, you have to
lean so far into the wind that you are unstable, sudden drop in wind
and you bite the dirt. Wind picks back up and you are quite likely to
get bowled over. Needless to say we don't go out unless we have to in
anything much above F7.

The all trees by us the nearby have the windswept curved look...

I'm not at your altitude, but my trees and shrubs all bend to the east.

John Rumm wrote:

On 15/07/2011 19:48, harry wrote:
On Jul 15, 3:38 pm, wrote:
I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony
fixing I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly
wind-prone gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame
in place?

TIA

Al

On small windows probably ok.
However I would put screws in purely as a security issue. It only
takes a bread knife to cut the foam and get in and burgle the place
without. Completely silent too.

Much depends on frame design, and if it has a front flange etc. With
many modern house designs the windows end up "fixed" to plastic cavity
closers anyway - so there is nothing solid to stick a frame fixing into.


Modern cavities are a PITA compared to older ones where the cavity was
closed by a return on the end brick.

--
Tim Watts

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in
ll.co.uk:

On 15 Jul 2011 18:47:47 GMT, AL_n wrote:

Define "slighly wind-prone", how much the glass in the curent
window
flex in reponse to gusts?

I've never noticed the 3-ft square pane in the old window flexing, but
then I never really looked.

You probably don't get the winds we do at 1400' and exposed. Gale
Force 8 (above 40mph sustained) happens several times a year gusts
with those are into the low 50's mph. Every so often it'll really
blow F10 55mph sustained gusts above 60mph.

F8 isn't pleasant, rain is painful, hard to stand up and move
sensibly about. F10 with gusts is down right dangerous, you have to
lean so far into the wind that you are unstable, sudden drop in wind
and you bite the dirt. Wind picks back up and you are quite likely to
get bowled over. Needless to say we don't go out unless we have to in
anything much above F7.

The all trees by us the nearby have the windswept curved look...

I've been at the helm of a 34-ft sloop, exposed to the elements, in a force
9 gale. The waves were about 15ft high. It was exhilerating - especially
since I was only a trainee crew member! The only thing that stopped me
losing my nerve was that the skipper was down below, apprently unconcerned.
I always refer back to that experience when I need to guesstimate strong
wind forces.

Al

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in
ll.co.uk:


The all trees by us the nearby have the windswept curved look...

Same here, as a matter of fact, but they all bend to the North East and the
window in question faces East, so it doesn't get the brunt of what nature
throws at us.


Al

In article ,
Charles wrote:
On 15/07/2011 15:38, AL_n wrote:
I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony fixing
I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly wind-prone
gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?

TIA

Al

You are joking right? :-) I hope the ones you installed are not high up
and you kill someone.

'They' glue aircraft together. Using a very much smaller contact area.
Have you ever tried removing foam from brickwork?

--
*If you think this van is dirty, you should try having sex with the driver*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Charles wrote:
On 15/07/2011 15:38, AL_n wrote:
I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony fixing
I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly wind-prone
gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?

TIA

Al

You are joking right? :-) I hope the ones you installed are not high up
and you kill someone.

'They' glue aircraft together. Using a very much smaller contact area.
Have you ever tried removing foam from brickwork?

I don't think people appreciate the difference between strength in
tension and strength in shear. Glue is often only stressed in
shear..e.g. the classic glued tenon and mortice joint, which is fine
until there is 'rocking' when it fails in tension, not shear.

Which is why gap filling with glue requires a glue strong in tension as
well.

Expanding foam is no particularly strong in tension, but a typical
window frame is not able to rock sufficiently to rip the foam apart,
especially in a rebated frame. And its quite a narrow gap as well.

So its the shear strength that counts. And here the foam elasticity is
an advantage, spreading the stress evenly down the foam line, so there
is no stress concentration ..

I've seen more screwed frames come awry than foamed ones.

Its standard industry practice to as has been said, wedge to get
straight, then foam, then cut back and plaster the inside and mastic the
outside.

In massive trauma situations - explosions - frames do not fly out, they
glass does.

Strong winds will break the glass before they break the foam.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "AL_n"
saying something like:

The only thing that stopped me
losing my nerve was that the skipper was down below, apprently unconcerned.

In other words, not daft enough to be up top.

On Jul 16, 12:30*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
* *Charles wrote:
On 15/07/2011 15:38, AL_n wrote:
I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony fixing
I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly wind-prone
gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?

TIA

Al

You are joking right? :-) *I hope the ones you installed are not high up
and you kill someone.

'They' glue aircraft together. Using a very much smaller contact area.
Have you ever tried removing foam from brickwork?

I don't think people appreciate the difference between strength in
tension and strength in shear. Glue is often only stressed in
shear..e.g. the classic glued tenon and mortice joint, which is fine
until there is 'rocking' when it fails in tension, not shear.

Which is why gap filling with glue requires a glue strong in tension as
well.

Expanding foam is no particularly strong in tension, but a typical
window frame is not able to rock sufficiently to rip the foam apart,
especially in a rebated frame. And its quite a narrow gap as well.

So its the shear strength that counts. And here the foam elasticity is
an advantage, spreading the stress evenly down the foam line, so there
is no stress concentration ..

I've seen more screwed frames come awry than foamed ones.

Its standard industry practice to as has been said, wedge to get
straight, then foam, then cut back and plaster the inside and mastic the
outside.

In massive trauma situations - explosions - frames do not fly out, they
glass does.

Strong winds will break the glass before they break the foam.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Probably right that is.

John Rumm wrote:

Yup, alas now verboten for thermal bridging reasons. I recall the first
time I saw a modern cavity closer - quite underwhelming it was! Skimpy
bit of plastic with some plasticy foam glued too the back. They are not
cheap either.

Good use for all those 50mm thick xtratherm offcuts from the stud walling
then?

I have a bulk bag of these which I'm loathe to throw in the skip, I have
even considered chucking them through the wood chipper to produce loose
loft insulation.

AJH

John Rumm wrote:

On 16/07/2011 07:56, Tim Watts wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

On 15/07/2011 19:48, harry wrote:
On Jul 15, 3:38 pm, wrote:
I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony
fixing I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly
wind-prone gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng
frame in place?

TIA

Al

On small windows probably ok.
However I would put screws in purely as a security issue. It only
takes a bread knife to cut the foam and get in and burgle the place
without. Completely silent too.

Much depends on frame design, and if it has a front flange etc. With
many modern house designs the windows end up "fixed" to plastic cavity
closers anyway - so there is nothing solid to stick a frame fixing into.


Modern cavities are a PITA compared to older ones where the cavity was
closed by a return on the end brick.

Yup, alas now verboten for thermal bridging reasons. I recall the first
time I saw a modern cavity closer - quite underwhelming it was! Skimpy
bit of plastic with some plasticy foam glued too the back. They are not
cheap either.


My brick-returned closures still have a 3/4" gap with a sheet of DPC in.
Can't imagine it's that much of a thermal bridge - well, no worse that the
double glazed window in the same hole.

The modern system is annoying at it does restrict where the window or door
can go...

--
Tim Watts

andrew wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

Yup, alas now verboten for thermal bridging reasons. I recall the first
time I saw a modern cavity closer - quite underwhelming it was! Skimpy
bit of plastic with some plasticy foam glued too the back. They are not
cheap either.

Good use for all those 50mm thick xtratherm offcuts from the stud walling
then?

I have a bulk bag of these which I'm loathe to throw in the skip, I have
even considered chucking them through the wood chipper to produce loose
loft insulation.

AJH

Just wondering - any reason not to foam up th cavity edge with PU expanding?

--
Tim Watts

On 15/07/11 15:38, AL_n wrote:
I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony fixing
I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly wind-prone
gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?

TIA

Al
some foam expands 10 times, some 2 times,
there can be a problem where the expansion warps the window framm,
and the sash doesnt close.

some is more waterproof than others.

[g]

In article ,
george [dicegeorge] wrote:
On 15/07/11 15:38, AL_n wrote:
I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony fixing
I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly wind-prone
gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?

TIA

Al
some foam expands 10 times, some 2 times,
there can be a problem where the expansion warps the window framm,
and the sash doesnt close.

some is more waterproof than others.

The foam shouldn't be exposed to water as such. It's just a gap filler and
adhesive. If it's exposed to water it will also likely be exposed to
sunlight, which it doesn't like. I cut it back a bit then run a cement
fillet round the frame which also looks better. Then a bead of silicone
between the fillet and the frame.

--
*If you don't like the news, go out and make some.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
george [dicegeorge] wrote:
On 15/07/11 15:38, AL_n wrote:
I once installed a couiple of UPVC windows, in my house and the ony fixing
I used was expanding foam from a can. I never had any problems.

Now i am about to install another on the first floor of slightly wind-prone
gable end. Is expanding foam alone sufficient for fixng frame in place?

TIA

Al
some foam expands 10 times, some 2 times,
there can be a problem where the expansion warps the window framm,
and the sash doesnt close.

some is more waterproof than others.

The foam shouldn't be exposed to water as such. It's just a gap filler and
adhesive. If it's exposed to water it will also likely be exposed to
sunlight, which it doesn't like. I cut it back a bit then run a cement
fillet round the frame which also looks better. Then a bead of silicone
between the fillet and the frame.



Without going into all the trials and tribulations of some double
glazing I had fitted, here is the quick synopsis.

Howling gales and flexible frames on the windows and patio doors in the
lounge. Filled gaps of up to 1 1/2" with foam all around the frames and
now no gales and everything feels very firm and solid.
That was about 5 years ago and no problems so far, as I was having the
render replaced soon after I foamed then it was all water/sunlight
proofed as Dave suggested.
--
Bill

In article ,
Bill wrote:
The foam shouldn't be exposed to water as such. It's just a gap filler and
adhesive. If it's exposed to water it will also likely be exposed to
sunlight, which it doesn't like. I cut it back a bit then run a cement
fillet round the frame which also looks better. Then a bead of silicone
between the fillet and the frame.



Without going into all the trials and tribulations of some double
glazing I had fitted, here is the quick synopsis.

Howling gales and flexible frames on the windows and patio doors in the
lounge. Filled gaps of up to 1 1/2" with foam all around the frames and
now no gales and everything feels very firm and solid.
That was about 5 years ago and no problems so far, as I was having the
render replaced soon after I foamed then it was all water/sunlight
proofed as Dave suggested.


I've got two large UPV windows self installed (including opening up the
aperture and fitting a new lintel) using the above method. Which IIRC was
in the Screwfix instruction leaflet. The oldest more than 10 years ago -
and absolutely no problems. But I did at first have reservations about how
well foam would hold things. Think it may of been on here I was told not
to worry. ;-)

--
*Consciousness: That annoying time between naps.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Dave Plowman (News)"
saying something like:

Think it may of been on here

Argh!
Not you too!