I finished choppng the steel bar down to size, and am threading them
by hand. Here's a couple of finished bolts, with the remainder of work
in progress:
http://i55.tinypic.com/wlt5d3.jpg

By using cutting fluid I was able to cut a bit faster, down to 20 mins
per bolt:
http://i54.tinypic.com/wimxrp.jpg

When cutting threads I was surprised that there is no guide on the tap
to ensure that the thread is straight. So I made a guide out of a tin
can.
Maybe I will make a more permanent guide.

"Matty F" wrote in message
...

I finished choppng the steel bar down to size, and am threading them
by hand. Here's a couple of finished bolts, with the remainder of work
in progress:
http://i55.tinypic.com/wlt5d3.jpg

By using cutting fluid I was able to cut a bit faster, down to 20 mins
per bolt:
http://i54.tinypic.com/wimxrp.jpg

When cutting threads I was surprised that there is no guide on the tap
to ensure that the thread is straight. So I made a guide out of a tin
can.
Maybe I will make a more permanent guide.






Do you mean the Die?

I used to use the end of the tailstock shaft to square up the die.

On Jun 12, 9:30 pm, "DerbyBoy" No-one wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

When cutting threads I was surprised that there is no guide on the tap
to ensure that the thread is straight. So I made a guide out of a tin
can.

Do you mean the Die?

I used to use the end of the tailstock shaft to square up the die.

Yes of course I meant the die. My memory is failing me.
I used the tailstock to start all of the threads. But that was slow,
and didn't do a good job, judging by the damaged threads. I couldn't
see what I was doing and it was hard to reverse the die four times per
turn like I did with the rest.

On Jun 12, 10:44*am, Matty F wrote:

I used the tailstock to start all of the threads.

It's really worth using a tailstock die holder for this, if you can
find one for your lathe. IMHE, they're such an improvement that it's
worth buying dies to fit them, rather than using those from your hand
set that doesn't.


and didn't do a good job, judging by the damaged threads.

What's the damage? If it's tearing, you cut too much at one pass -
always a problem with a thread this big. If it's wobbling or a slack
pitch, then it's an uneven hold on the die and using the tailstock
will help to keep them square.

it was hard to reverse the die four times per
turn like I did with the rest.

That's for taps, where there's a problem in clearing swarf. If it's
dies and the swarf is coming out cleanly anyway, you can thread
continuously.



I bought a book yessterday, "The Munition Worker's Handbook" of 1916.
It's a very cut-down machinist's handbook / Zeus tables, with an extra
chapter added to the back on how to turn shell casings from raw
forgings. Full of advice on machining stuff like this.

On Jun 12, 10:39 pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Jun 12, 10:44 am, Matty F wrote:

I used the tailstock to start all of the threads.

It's really worth using a tailstock die holder for this, if you can
find one for your lathe. IMHE, they're such an improvement that it's
worth buying dies to fit them, rather than using those from your hand
set that doesn't.

and didn't do a good job, judging by the damaged threads.

What's the damage? If it's tearing, you cut too much at one pass -

How can I cut a different amount? Surely that depends on the die.
Which in my view is too thin. I'd rather have more threads in it, with
a gentler taper.

always a problem with a thread this big. If it's wobbling or a slack
pitch, then it's an uneven hold on the die and using the tailstock
will help to keep them square.

it was hard to reverse the die four times per
turn like I did with the rest.

That's for taps, where there's a problem in clearing swarf. If it's
dies and the swarf is coming out cleanly anyway, you can thread
continuously.

I've been told to reverse the die up to 6 times per turn, for large
threads. I have since discovered that the person who told me that was
not a real trained engineer.

Many years ago I used a fancy 5/16" tap on a capstan lathe that cut a
long thread in steel in a couple of seconds and opened automatically.

"Matty F" wrote in message
...

On Jun 12, 10:39 pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Jun 12, 10:44 am, Matty F wrote:

I used the tailstock to start all of the threads.

It's really worth using a tailstock die holder for this, if you can
find one for your lathe. IMHE, they're such an improvement that it's
worth buying dies to fit them, rather than using those from your hand
set that doesn't.

and didn't do a good job, judging by the damaged threads.

What's the damage? If it's tearing, you cut too much at one pass -

How can I cut a different amount? Surely that depends on the die.
Which in my view is too thin. I'd rather have more threads in it, with
a gentler taper.

always a problem with a thread this big. If it's wobbling or a slack
pitch, then it's an uneven hold on the die and using the tailstock
will help to keep them square.

it was hard to reverse the die four times per
turn like I did with the rest.

That's for taps, where there's a problem in clearing swarf. If it's
dies and the swarf is coming out cleanly anyway, you can thread
continuously.

I've been told to reverse the die up to 6 times per turn, for large
threads. I have since discovered that the person who told me that was
not a real trained engineer.

Many years ago I used a fancy 5/16" tap on a capstan lathe that cut a
long thread in steel in a couple of seconds and opened automatically.


I remember those.Was it a Coventry Die Head? It used to click open when the
traverse hit a stop. There were 4 individual cutting tools and they were set
using a screw gauge. 40 years ago!

Are you sure you have the turned diameter correct? What lube are you using -
have you tried Rocol RTD?

On 12/06/2011 12:18, Matty F wrote:
On Jun 12, 10:39 pm, Andy wrote:
On Jun 12, 10:44 am, Matty wrote:

I used the tailstock to start all of the threads.

It's really worth using a tailstock die holder for this, if you can
find one for your lathe. IMHE, they're such an improvement that it's
worth buying dies to fit them, rather than using those from your hand
set that doesn't.

and didn't do a good job, judging by the damaged threads.

What's the damage? If it's tearing, you cut too much at one pass -

How can I cut a different amount? Surely that depends on the die.
Which in my view is too thin. I'd rather have more threads in it, with
a gentler taper.

As with all thread cutting dies, it should have some way to alter the
cutting depth of the thread. Capstan dies, well, I was 15 at the time
just starting on my apprenticeship and I can't remember how they were
adjusted. Hand dies were mounted in a holder that had a securing grub
screw and two grub screws to alter the compression to determine what
diam the thread would end up. The die should have a split in one side.
See http://www.threadcheck.com/taps-dies-cutting-tools/
If it doesn't have the split, then it should only be used to clean up
damaged threads.

always a problem with a thread this big. If it's wobbling or a slack
pitch, then it's an uneven hold on the die and using the tailstock
will help to keep them square.

it was hard to reverse the die four times per
turn like I did with the rest.

That's for taps, where there's a problem in clearing swarf. If it's
dies and the swarf is coming out cleanly anyway, you can thread
continuously.

I've been told to reverse the die up to 6 times per turn, for large
threads. I have since discovered that the person who told me that was
not a real trained engineer.

Many years ago I used a fancy 5/16" tap on a capstan lathe that cut a
long thread in steel in a couple of seconds and opened automatically.

Dave

On Jun 13, 8:54 am, Dave wrote:
On 12/06/2011 12:18, Matty F wrote:

How can I cut a different amount? Surely that depends on the die.
Which in my view is too thin. I'd rather have more threads in it, with
a gentler taper.

As with all thread cutting dies, it should have some way to alter the
cutting depth of the thread. Capstan dies, well, I was 15 at the time
just starting on my apprenticeship and I can't remember how they were
adjusted. Hand dies were mounted in a holder that had a securing grub
screw and two grub screws to alter the compression to determine what
diam the thread would end up. The die should have a split in one side.
Seehttp://www.threadcheck.com/taps-dies-cutting-tools/
If it doesn't have the split, then it should only be used to clean up
damaged threads.

But I want to cut a standard Whitworth thread, which is a standard
size. So I don't want an adjustable die.
If you are suggesting that I use an adjustable die several times on
each bolt and tighten the die up, that isn't going to happen. The job
is hard enough as it is.
The die sets available to me are not adjustable.
What I think I'd like is a very fat die with lots of threads in it
that cut progressively deeper.

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
On Jun 13, 8:54 am, Dave wrote:
On 12/06/2011 12:18, Matty F wrote:

How can I cut a different amount? Surely that depends on the
die.
Which in my view is too thin. I'd rather have more threads in
it, with
a gentler taper.

As with all thread cutting dies, it should have some way to alter
the
cutting depth of the thread. Capstan dies, well, I was 15 at the
time
just starting on my apprenticeship and I can't remember how they
were
adjusted. Hand dies were mounted in a holder that had a securing
grub
screw and two grub screws to alter the compression to determine
what
diam the thread would end up. The die should have a split in one
side.
Seehttp://www.threadcheck.com/taps-dies-cutting-tools/
If it doesn't have the split, then it should only be used to clean
up
damaged threads.

But I want to cut a standard Whitworth thread, which is a standard
size. So I don't want an adjustable die.
If you are suggesting that I use an adjustable die several times on
each bolt and tighten the die up, that isn't going to happen. The
job
is hard enough as it is.
The die sets available to me are not adjustable.
What I think I'd like is a very fat die with lots of threads in it
that cut progressively deeper.

Conventionally you would take a roughing cut maybe 10 thou oversize
then readjust to finished size. A die box has a little lever that can
be flipped into one of two positions, oversize and on size.It also has
a wide range of adjustment if you need to make none standard diameter
threads. With a split die in a die holder you open it up for the first
cut then close it down to standard for the finishing cut but the range
of adjustment is pretty limited.

AWEM

"Matty F" wrote in message
...

On Jun 13, 8:54 am, Dave wrote:
On 12/06/2011 12:18, Matty F wrote:

How can I cut a different amount? Surely that depends on the die.
Which in my view is too thin. I'd rather have more threads in it, with
a gentler taper.

As with all thread cutting dies, it should have some way to alter the
cutting depth of the thread. Capstan dies, well, I was 15 at the time
just starting on my apprenticeship and I can't remember how they were
adjusted. Hand dies were mounted in a holder that had a securing grub
screw and two grub screws to alter the compression to determine what
diam the thread would end up. The die should have a split in one side.
Seehttp://www.threadcheck.com/taps-dies-cutting-tools/
If it doesn't have the split, then it should only be used to clean up
damaged threads.

But I want to cut a standard Whitworth thread, which is a standard
size. So I don't want an adjustable die.
If you are suggesting that I use an adjustable die several times on
each bolt and tighten the die up, that isn't going to happen. The job
is hard enough as it is.
The die sets available to me are not adjustable.
What I think I'd like is a very fat die with lots of threads in it
that cut progressively deeper.






I believe that you are not using a proper die - but a thread cleaning tool
or chasing die. Does the die have a lead-in to progressively cut the thread?
Are you using it the correct way round - with the internal chamfer / lead-in
going first?

DerbyBoy wrote:

But I want to cut a standard Whitworth thread, which is a standard
size. So I don't want an adjustable die.
If you are suggesting that I use an adjustable die several times on
each bolt and tighten the die up, that isn't going to happen. The job
is hard enough as it is.
The die sets available to me are not adjustable.
What I think I'd like is a very fat die with lots of threads in it
that cut progressively deeper.

I believe that you are not using a proper die - but a thread cleaning
tool or chasing die. Does the die have a lead-in to progressively cut
the thread? Are you using it the correct way round - with the internal
chamfer / lead-in going first?

How are we supposed to know that Matty wrote the first paragraph of
that, and that you wrote the second?

Not using Windows Live Mail would help, there are plenty of alternatives
to choose from, e.g.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Newsgroup_access_tips#Thunderbird

On Jun 13, 9:13*am, Andy Burns wrote:
DerbyBoy wrote:
But I want to cut a standard Whitworth thread, which is a standard
size. So I don't want an adjustable die.
If you are suggesting that I use an adjustable die several times on
each bolt and tighten the die up, that isn't going to happen. The job
is hard enough as it is.
The die sets available to me are not adjustable.
What I think I'd like is a very fat die with lots of threads in it
that cut progressively deeper.

I believe that you are not using a proper die - but a thread cleaning
tool or chasing die. Does the die have a lead-in to progressively cut
the thread? Are you using it the correct way round - with the internal
chamfer / lead-in going first?



That's my reading of this too - plus his comment about the die being
too short and requiring clearance cuts each revolution. Using a
proper split die allows the first thread cut to be made with the
adjustment screws well in giving at least 10 thou over size; the
second cut I make tweaking the settings till I get the fit I want and
is nice a and clean. It really doesn't take any time at all even with
a larger thread.

A die holder to go in the tailstock is an almost must for a lathe
user. I will admit to being fortunate in inheriting my father's lathe
and he made his own that can be reversed to take smaller dies and also
is slotted to take a tap holder.

Rob

On Jun 13, 4:46 am, "DerbyBoy" No-one wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

Many years ago I used a fancy 5/16" tap on a capstan lathe that cut a
long thread in steel in a couple of seconds and opened automatically.

I remember those.Was it a Coventry Die Head? It used to click open when the
traverse hit a stop. There were 4 individual cutting tools and they were set
using a screw gauge. 40 years ago!

Are you sure you have the turned diameter correct? What lube are you using -
have you tried Rocol RTD?

Yes I am using Rocol. I have tried another die and that works much
better. The one I was using must have been damaged.

Here's the finished job:
http://i52.tinypic.com/2052qux.jpg

Here are the nasty cheap taps and dies - all we can afford:
http://i52.tinypic.com/2zogrgx.jpg

In message
,
Matty F writes
On Jun 13, 4:46 am, "DerbyBoy" No-one wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

Many years ago I used a fancy 5/16" tap on a capstan lathe that cut a
long thread in steel in a couple of seconds and opened automatically.

I remember those.Was it a Coventry Die Head? It used to click open when the
traverse hit a stop. There were 4 individual cutting tools and they were set
using a screw gauge. 40 years ago!

Are you sure you have the turned diameter correct? What lube are you using -
have you tried Rocol RTD?

Yes I am using Rocol. I have tried another die and that works much
better. The one I was using must have been damaged.

Here's the finished job:
http://i52.tinypic.com/2052qux.jpg

Beyond my knowledge Matty but, I have an idea turned bolts with a sharp
corner at the head are likely to be considerably weaker than forged head
types.

Here are the nasty cheap taps and dies - all we can afford:
http://i52.tinypic.com/2zogrgx.jpg

I've got some much older than that!

regards

--
Tim Lamb

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
On Jun 13, 4:46 am, "DerbyBoy" No-one wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

Many years ago I used a fancy 5/16" tap on a capstan lathe that cut a
long thread in steel in a couple of seconds and opened automatically.

I remember those.Was it a Coventry Die Head? It used to click open when
the
traverse hit a stop. There were 4 individual cutting tools and they were
set
using a screw gauge. 40 years ago!

Are you sure you have the turned diameter correct? What lube are you
using -
have you tried Rocol RTD?

Yes I am using Rocol. I have tried another die and that works much
better. The one I was using must have been damaged.

Here's the finished job:
http://i52.tinypic.com/2052qux.jpg

They look very similar to
http://www.toolfastdirect.co.uk/acat...Tee_Bolts.html (all out
of stock BTW)

On Jun 14, 8:00*am, Matty F wrote:
On Jun 13, 4:46 am, "DerbyBoy" No-one wrote:

"Matty F" *wrote in message
Many years ago I used a fancy 5/16" tap on a capstan lathe that cut a
long thread in steel in a couple of seconds and opened automatically.

I remember those.Was it a Coventry Die Head? It used to click open when the
traverse hit a stop. There were 4 individual cutting tools and they were set
using a screw gauge. 40 years ago!

Are you sure you have the turned diameter correct? What lube are you using -
have you tried Rocol RTD?

Yes I am using Rocol. I have tried another die and that works much
better. The one I was using must have been damaged.

Here's the finished job:http://i52.tinypic.com/2052qux.jpg

Here are the nasty cheap taps and dies - all we can afford:http://i52.tinypic.com/2zogrgx.jpg

Matty - those are die nuts and would have been used to tidy up the
thread on your old bolts rather than cut the new threads - no wonder
you were struggling. What you want is a die that looks like this -
Ebay 370092890759 (found by searching for whitworth die). As said by
several of us, the slot allows a degree of adjustment when in an
appropriate die holder to give a rough cut and then a final cut.

If you are cutting a lot of threads using taps or dies and can mount
the item in a the lathe then life would be much easier if you had a
tailstock holder - if you want to see the one my father made let me
know and I'll get some pictures up somewhere.

Rob.

On Jun 14, 7:52 pm, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

Here's the finished job:
http://i52.tinypic.com/2052qux.jpg

They look very similar tohttp://www.toolfastdirect.co.uk/acatalog/BSW_Unbrako_Tee_Bolts.html(all out
of stock BTW)

Well, we have nothing like that in NZ. Few suppliers here stock
Whitworth any more. If they did, we bought all their stock.
Besides, 6 X 1/2 BSW TEE BOLTS Price: £253.25 Excluding VAT at 20%,
pack size 25 would cost over £300, or NZ$600. Worth the money, except
that we want square head bolts to fit in existing woodwork, and those
are Tee bolts. And my time is free!

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
On Jun 14, 7:52 pm, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

Here's the finished job:
http://i52.tinypic.com/2052qux.jpg

They look very similar
tohttp://www.toolfastdirect.co.uk/acatalog/BSW_Unbrako_Tee_Bolts.html(all
out
of stock BTW)

Well, we have nothing like that in NZ. Few suppliers here stock
Whitworth any more. If they did, we bought all their stock.
Besides, 6 X 1/2 BSW TEE BOLTS Price: £253.25 Excluding VAT at 20%,
pack size 25 would cost over £300, or NZ$600. Worth the money, except
that we want square head bolts to fit in existing woodwork, and those
are Tee bolts. And my time is free!


And its more fun making them too.

They look like they have square heads but the picture is a bit small.
If you were bolting metal to metal I would buy the T-bolts as they are
forged and heat treated so are much stronger.
It shouldn't matter for bolting to wood as I would expect the bolts to pull
through before breaking.

On Jun 14, 7:42 pm, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message
,
Matty F writes

Here's the finished job:
http://i52.tinypic.com/2052qux.jpg

Beyond my knowledge Matty but, I have an idea turned bolts with a sharp
corner at the head are likely to be considerably weaker than forged head
types.

But much stronger than the 109 year-old softwood that the bolts are
holding on.
For hidden bolts that need maximum strength I would certainly use high
tensile bolts.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 01:34:34 -0700 (PDT), Matty F
wrote:

On Jun 14, 7:52 pm, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

Here's the finished job:
http://i52.tinypic.com/2052qux.jpg

They look very similar tohttp://www.toolfastdirect.co.uk/acatalog/BSW_Unbrako_Tee_Bolts.html(all out
of stock BTW)

Well, we have nothing like that in NZ. Few suppliers here stock
Whitworth any more. If they did, we bought all their stock.
Besides, 6 X 1/2 BSW TEE BOLTS Price: £253.25 Excluding VAT at 20%,
pack size 25 would cost over £300, or NZ$600. Worth the money, except
that we want square head bolts to fit in existing woodwork, and those
are Tee bolts. And my time is free!

1/2" BSW threaded bar, just make the square heads, part drilled
through and tapped for about four thead bitches, fix the threaded bar
with a studlock adhesive like Loctite 270 or High strength retainer
like Loctite 638.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=&q...GB377&ie=UTF-8


--

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 00:57:47 -0700 (PDT), robgraham
wrote:

those are die nuts and would have been used to tidy up the
thread on your old bolts rather than cut the new threads - no wonder
you were struggling.

Or just a few hours in an electrolyte derusting bath followed by a
wire brush and a quick pass over with the die nut.


--

On Jun 14, 8:42*am, Tim Lamb wrote:

Beyond my knowledge Matty but, I have an idea turned bolts with a sharp
corner at the head are likely to be considerably weaker than forged head
types.

In steel - sod-all difference.

Wrought iron, whole different story.

On Jun 14, 10:57*am, Matty F wrote:

For hidden bolts that need maximum strength I would certainly use high
tensile bolts.

I can show you a Victorian roof restoration that collapsed because
some pillock of an architect's tea-boy specified high-tensile bolts,
instead of Whitworth into cast iron, as the good Joseph intended.
Seems you can have one or the other, but not both - and if it's cast
iron, you're better off with a thread that can actually be tapped into
the iron, no matter how strong the bolts themselves are.

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Jun 14, 10:57 am, Matty F wrote:

For hidden bolts that need maximum strength I would certainly use high
tensile bolts.

I can show you a Victorian roof restoration that collapsed because
some pillock of an architect's tea-boy specified high-tensile bolts,
instead of Whitworth into cast iron, as the good Joseph intended.
Seems you can have one or the other, but not both - and if it's cast
iron, you're better off with a thread that can actually be tapped into
the iron, no matter how strong the bolts themselves are.

well you can certainly get grade R BSW bolts, i still have a few dozen boxes
of them in my workshop.

-

On Jun 15, 6:40 am, The Other Mike
wrote:

1/2" BSW threaded bar, just make the square heads, part drilled
through and tapped for about four thead bitches, fix the threaded bar
with a studlock adhesive like Loctite 270 or High strength retainer
like Loctite 638.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=&q...ded+bar&source...

And would you make bolts that way if, for example you were restoring a
unique vehicle - the first of its kind in your city? You'd repair
Stevenson's Rocket with threaded rod and Loctite? I think the curator
and many people would have something to say about that.

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
On Jun 15, 6:40 am, The Other Mike
wrote:

1/2" BSW threaded bar, just make the square heads, part drilled
through and tapped for about four thead bitches, fix the threaded bar
with a studlock adhesive like Loctite 270 or High strength retainer
like Loctite 638.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=&q...ded+bar&source...

And would you make bolts that way if, for example you were restoring a
unique vehicle - the first of its kind in your city? You'd repair
Stevenson's Rocket with threaded rod and Loctite? I think the curator
and many people would have something to say about that.


If you start down that route you will need some thread files and a lot more
patience. They may even take your angle grinder away. 8-)

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 23:04:51 -0700 (PDT), Matty F
wrote:

And would you make bolts that way if, for example you were restoring a
unique vehicle - the first of its kind in your city? You'd repair
Stevenson's Rocket with threaded rod and Loctite? I think the curator
and many people would have something to say about that.

I'd probably box, label, document and keep the old bolts, too. Just in case...


Thomas Prufer

On 15/06/2011 07:04, Matty F wrote:
On Jun 15, 6:40 am, The Other
wrote:

1/2" BSW threaded bar, just make the square heads, part drilled
through and tapped for about four thead bitches, fix the threaded bar
with a studlock adhesive like Loctite 270 or High strength retainer
like Loctite 638.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=&q...ded+bar&source...

And would you make bolts that way if, for example you were restoring a
unique vehicle - the first of its kind in your city? You'd repair
Stevenson's Rocket with threaded rod and Loctite? I think the curator
and many people would have something to say about that.

I agree with what you write totally. Imagine, in years to come, when you
try to remove a bolt and the nut comes off and leaves you with no way to
unscrew the threaded rod.

Dave

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 23:04:51 -0700, Matty F wrote:
And would you make bolts that way if, for example you were restoring a
unique vehicle - the first of its kind in your city? You'd repair
Stevenson's Rocket with threaded rod and Loctite? I think the curator
and many people would have something to say about that.

Duct tape and baling wire and job's a good'un... ;-)

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 23:04:51 -0700 (PDT), Matty F
wrote:

On Jun 15, 6:40 am, The Other Mike
wrote:

1/2" BSW threaded bar, just make the square heads, part drilled
through and tapped for about four thead bitches, fix the threaded bar
with a studlock adhesive like Loctite 270 or High strength retainer
like Loctite 638.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=&q...ded+bar&source...

And would you make bolts that way if, for example you were restoring a
unique vehicle - the first of its kind in your city? You'd repair
Stevenson's Rocket with threaded rod and Loctite? I think the curator
and many people would have something to say about that.

No, I'd always restore the original bolts in every case if this were
possible. The ones you showed appear to be perfectly serviceable in
terms of cross section and a mild electrolytic treatment with a minor
degree of attention with a thread file or die nut would bring them
back to acceptable visual appearance. Not only would it be quicker it
would maintain originality

A fabricated bolt as mentioned in my previous posting is no less
original than your turned from solid ones using a modern steel.

If they aren't restorable, are not carrying any significant structural
load, and are being replaced for appearance only then it matters
little what is buried out of sight. Yes you might want to reproduce
the original exactly, but in some respects a replacement that isn't
like the original, particular if only a proportion require
replacement, enables future generations to clearly identify what was
original and what has been replaced in a previous restoration. It
might simply mean pop marks on the replacement bolt heads and
appropriate documentation in an archive accompanying the object being
restored.

In building restoration they sometimes deliberately use different
coloured bricks for just this purpose.

A very unique vehicle, the only one of its type on the planet, that is
being restored here in the UK at the moment is ensuring that as far as
is possible all replacement structure and every single fastener from
the smallest rivet upwards is very clearly identifiable. It won't ever
be restored again but even ordinary members of the public viewing the
vehicle in years to come will know exactly what is new and what is
original.



--

On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:05:26 +0100, Dave
wrote:

On 15/06/2011 07:04, Matty F wrote:
On Jun 15, 6:40 am, The Other
wrote:

1/2" BSW threaded bar, just make the square heads, part drilled
through and tapped for about four thead bitches, fix the threaded bar
with a studlock adhesive like Loctite 270 or High strength retainer
like Loctite 638.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=&q...ded+bar&source...

And would you make bolts that way if, for example you were restoring a
unique vehicle - the first of its kind in your city? You'd repair
Stevenson's Rocket with threaded rod and Loctite? I think the curator
and many people would have something to say about that.

I agree with what you write totally. Imagine, in years to come, when you
try to remove a bolt and the nut comes off and leaves you with no way to
unscrew the threaded rod.

That is just not going to happen unless you subject the fastener to
massive extremes of temperature, the kind that cause 'softwood' the
substrate these faseners apparently pass through to burn or crumble to
dust.

If you have worries about anerobic adhesives falling to bits you
better avoid all forms of transport except a horse or your own feet.




--

On Jun 16, 8:59 pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 23:04:51 -0700 (PDT), Matty F

wrote:
On Jun 15, 6:40 am, The Other Mike
wrote:

1/2" BSW threaded bar, just make the square heads, part drilled
through and tapped for about four thead bitches, fix the threaded bar
with a studlock adhesive like Loctite 270 or High strength retainer
like Loctite 638.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=&q...ded+bar&source...

And would you make bolts that way if, for example you were restoring a
unique vehicle - the first of its kind in your city? You'd repair
Stevenson's Rocket with threaded rod and Loctite? I think the curator
and many people would have something to say about that.

No, I'd always restore the original bolts in every case if this were
possible. The ones you showed appear to be perfectly serviceable in
terms of cross section and a mild electrolytic treatment with a minor
degree of attention with a thread file or die nut would bring them
back to acceptable visual appearance. Not only would it be quicker it
would maintain originality

A fabricated bolt as mentioned in my previous posting is no less
original than your turned from solid ones using a modern steel.

If they aren't restorable, are not carrying any significant structural
load, and are being replaced for appearance only then it matters
little what is buried out of sight. Yes you might want to reproduce
the original exactly, but in some respects a replacement that isn't
like the original, particular if only a proportion require
replacement, enables future generations to clearly identify what was
original and what has been replaced in a previous restoration. It
might simply mean pop marks on the replacement bolt heads and
appropriate documentation in an archive accompanying the object being
restored.

In building restoration they sometimes deliberately use different
coloured bricks for just this purpose.

A very unique vehicle, the only one of its type on the planet, that is
being restored here in the UK at the moment is ensuring that as far as
is possible all replacement structure and every single fastener from
the smallest rivet upwards is very clearly identifiable. It won't ever
be restored again but even ordinary members of the public viewing the
vehicle in years to come will know exactly what is new and what is
original.

In this case the bolts *are* carrying a significant structural load,
and the vehicle is used to transport the public, and engineers have
determined that the bolts that I have made are suitable for the
purpose and that the old bolts could not be guaranteed and are unsafe.
Some of them were broken. Yes we are keeping the old bolts and all
other original parts, as always. The restored vehicle will be kept out
of bad weather for ever so the bolts should not rust any more. End of
story.

On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 02:32:56 -0700 (PDT), Matty F
wrote:

In this case the bolts *are* carrying a significant structural load,
and the vehicle is used to transport the public, and engineers have
determined that the bolts that I have made are suitable for the
purpose and that the old bolts could not be guaranteed and are unsafe.
Some of them were broken. Yes we are keeping the old bolts and all
other original parts, as always. The restored vehicle will be kept out
of bad weather for ever so the bolts should not rust any more. End of
story.

The lack of radius under the head should make any engineer with a
reputation to maintain reject them if they are carrying 'significant
load'

But are they really carrying significant load? I thought earlier you
said they were bolting through ancient softwood, in fact holding on
'softwood' were the words.

Message-ID:


"But much stronger than the 109 year-old softwood that the bolts are
holding on."

But it could be a big bit of softwood but then again it's 1/2"
diameter material which can carry more than a few tonnes. So it's a
really, really big bit of softwood then? Or there are other external
loads in which case its not really holding on 109 year old softwood.

Has the softwood been tested?

Undoubtedly some of the original bolts are a bit bent but probably a
bit of heat from a welding torch and a few minutes with a vice and a
soft faced hammer would fix it.

Overall It sounds like a lot of time and effort to make lots of new
bolts that are probably inferior to the original when a few hours of
unattended rust removal and half an hour minor graft with a thread
file or die nut would have brought the originals back to near new.
Maybe you could have sacrificed one bolt to proof testing at local
university. You'd then might find the factor of safety was way in
excess of that required for modern public transport vehicles.


--

On Jun 16, 10:21 pm, The Other Mike
wrote:

"But much stronger than the 109 year-old softwood that the bolts are
holding on."

But it could be a big bit of softwood but then again it's 1/2"
diameter material which can carry more than a few tonnes. So it's a
really, really big bit of softwood then? Or there are other external
loads in which case its not really holding on 109 year old softwood.

Actually 18 pieces of softwood.

On 16/06/2011 10:01, The Other Mike wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:05:26 +0100,
wrote:

On 15/06/2011 07:04, Matty F wrote:
On Jun 15, 6:40 am, The Other
wrote:

1/2" BSW threaded bar, just make the square heads, part drilled
through and tapped for about four thead bitches, fix the threaded bar
with a studlock adhesive like Loctite 270 or High strength retainer
like Loctite 638.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=&q...ded+bar&source...

And would you make bolts that way if, for example you were restoring a
unique vehicle - the first of its kind in your city? You'd repair
Stevenson's Rocket with threaded rod and Loctite? I think the curator
and many people would have something to say about that.

I agree with what you write totally. Imagine, in years to come, when you
try to remove a bolt and the nut comes off and leaves you with no way to
unscrew the threaded rod.

That is just not going to happen unless you subject the fastener to
massive extremes of temperature, the kind that cause 'softwood' the
substrate these faseners apparently pass through to burn or crumble to
dust.

If you have worries about anerobic adhesives falling to bits you
better avoid all forms of transport except a horse or your own feet.


I worked in the aerospace industry from 1974 to 1999 and anerobic
adhesives were never considered a class one locking, more of a class 2
like a stiff nut etc.

Dave

On Jun 13, 8:05 pm, "DerbyBoy" No-one wrote:

I believe that you are not using a proper die - but a thread cleaning tool
or chasing die. Does the die have a lead-in to progressively cut the thread?
Are you using it the correct way round - with the internal chamfer / lead-in
going first?

Yes I was using a proper die. Yes it has a lead in. Yes I was using it
the right way around. The original die was damaged, which explains why
it was hard to use, so I got another die of identical type which cut
well. Yes the job is now finished.

In message
,
Matty F writes
On Jun 13, 8:05 pm, "DerbyBoy" No-one wrote:

I believe that you are not using a proper die - but a thread cleaning tool
or chasing die. Does the die have a lead-in to progressively cut the thread?
Are you using it the correct way round - with the internal chamfer / lead-in
going first?

Yes I was using a proper die. Yes it has a lead in. Yes I was using it
the right way around. The original die was damaged, which explains why
it was hard to use, so I got another die of identical type which cut
well. Yes the job is now finished.

So what comes next?

regards

--
Tim Lamb

On Jun 23, 6:05 am, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message
,
Matty F writes

On Jun 13, 8:05 pm, "DerbyBoy" No-one wrote:

I believe that you are not using a proper die - but a thread cleaning tool
or chasing die. Does the die have a lead-in to progressively cut the thread?
Are you using it the correct way round - with the internal chamfer / lead-in
going first?

Yes I was using a proper die. Yes it has a lead in. Yes I was using it
the right way around. The original die was damaged, which explains why
it was hard to use, so I got another die of identical type which cut
well. Yes the job is now finished.

So what comes next?

The bolts will be treated aganst rust.
My part is finished except for cutting the bolts to length when the
new timberwork is done.
The existing timber was added wrongly many years ago and is being
replaced to match the original.