OK somewhat OT this but...

Looking at the previous thread on "Lifetime of a Fridge/Freezer" I just
wondered how much more you would have to pay to get a product that would be
good for ten years minimum.
ISTR Andy Hall being a great advocate of Miele products and his opinion was
held in high esteem by most in this group. Their products used to carry a
ten year guarantee IIRC but now maybe not so.

So, if you bought a washing machine 30 years ago (say) it would likely have
been less sophisticated and probably more rhobustly engineered.
I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication without a
loss of reliability?". If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.
But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15 years
for instance?

Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5. The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last. But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have" gadgets.

Phil

On 13/05/2011 13:37, TheScullster wrote:
OK somewhat OT this but...

Looking at the previous thread on "Lifetime of a Fridge/Freezer" I just
wondered how much more you would have to pay to get a product that would be
good for ten years minimum.
ISTR Andy Hall being a great advocate of Miele products and his opinion was
held in high esteem by most in this group. Their products used to carry a
ten year guarantee IIRC but now maybe not so.

So, if you bought a washing machine 30 years ago (say) it would likely have
been less sophisticated and probably more rhobustly engineered.

My parents'' first washing machine was a front loading Bendix purchased
in approx 1953, an extremely reliable machine as long as you kept the
gear box topped up with oil.. :-) It lasted for years until the
casing rusted away.
I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication without a
loss of reliability?". If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.
But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15 years
for instance?

Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5.
I second that,
which is why I purchased a Miele in the first place, but I was sadly
disappointed. I assume you saw my link
http://www.recommendedbuys.co.uk/hou...fn-8452-sd.htm
in the previous thread, there is a history there.
The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last.

But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have"
gadgets.

I'll drink to that

Cheers
Don

On 13/05/11 13:37, TheScullster wrote:

I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication without a
loss of reliability?". If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.

White goods are a mature product, I don't think there is anything to add in
terms of sophistication. 'Sophistication' just means gimicks and more
poorly designed innovations to fail. Modern manufacturing ought to be
able to make the same basic components with greater precision and quality
control. So there might be an increased cost for quality raw materials. The
problem seems to be the prevailing accountants' and marketeers' view of
business. Sell shiny, sell cheap, sell often.



But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15 years
for instance?

Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5. The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last. But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have" gadgets.

The price of things has fallen relative to incomes. I suppose if we were
prepared to pay as much as our parents and grandparent for things which
were once considered luxuries we would insist on them lasting a lifetime.



--
djc

"djc" wrote

On 13/05/11 13:37, TheScullster wrote:

I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication
without a
loss of reliability?". If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.

White goods are a mature product, I don't think there is anything to add
in
terms of sophistication. 'Sophistication' just means gimicks and more
poorly designed innovations to fail. Modern manufacturing ought to be
able to make the same basic components with greater precision and quality
control. So there might be an increased cost for quality raw materials.
The
problem seems to be the prevailing accountants' and marketeers' view of
business. Sell shiny, sell cheap, sell often.



But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much
would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15
years
for instance?

Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5. The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or
whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last. But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have" gadgets.

The price of things has fallen relative to incomes. I suppose if we were
prepared to pay as much as our parents and grandparent for things which
were once considered luxuries we would insist on them lasting a lifetime.

Good point - it may be that we would need to pay not 50% more but 500% more
for true "quality"!

Phil

djc wrote:
On 13/05/11 13:37, TheScullster wrote:

I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication without a
loss of reliability?". If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.

White goods are a mature product, I don't think there is anything to add in
terms of sophistication. 'Sophistication' just means gimicks and more
poorly designed innovations to fail. Modern manufacturing ought to be
able to make the same basic components with greater precision and quality
control. So there might be an increased cost for quality raw materials. The
problem seems to be the prevailing accountants' and marketeers' view of
business. Sell shiny, sell cheap, sell often.



But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15 years
for instance?

Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5. The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last. But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have" gadgets.

The price of things has fallen relative to incomes. I suppose if we were
prepared to pay as much as our parents and grandparent for things which
were once considered luxuries we would insist on them lasting a lifetime.



...and insist that they were fully repairable.

On May 13, 3:57*pm, "TheScullster" wrote:
"djc" wrote









On 13/05/11 13:37, TheScullster wrote:

I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication
without a
loss of reliability?". *If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.

White goods are a mature product, I don't think there is anything to add
in
terms of sophistication. 'Sophistication' just means gimicks and more
poorly designed innovations to fail. * Modern manufacturing ought to be
able to make the same basic components with greater precision and quality
control. So there might be an increased cost for quality raw materials.
The
problem seems to be the prevailing accountants' and marketeers' view of
business. Sell shiny, sell cheap, sell often.

But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much
would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15
years
for instance?

Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5. *The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or
whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last. *But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have" gadgets.

The price of things has fallen relative to incomes. I suppose if we were
prepared to pay as much as our parents and grandparent for things which
were once considered luxuries we would insist on them lasting a lifetime.

Good point - it may be that we would need to pay not 50% more but 500% more
for true "quality"!

Phil

A couple of years ago I looked into this for a company I worked at
(name withheld to protect the guilty)

To go for premium materials would double the costs of the bill of
materials. However, a 100% increase in materials only resulted in
something like a 30% increase in the overall cost to produce and a
similar increase in sales cost.

Rough estimates on lifespan would have increased it from 3-5 years to
a minimum of 10 years with a gut feel that 20 years would be
achievable.

No-one was interested in stocking it.

On May 13, 2:20*pm, Donwill wrote:
On 13/05/2011 13:37, TheScullster wrote: OK somewhat OT this but...

My parents'' first washing machine was a front loading Bendix purchased
in approx 1953, an extremely reliable machine as long as you kept the
gear box topped up with oil.. :-) * * *It lasted for years until the
casing rusted away

My parents bought the same; they bought it second hand 1957. It was
still in the kitchen (bolted to the floor) in 2003 when I inherited
the house.

You could open the door during the spin cycle to allow the air to blow
through :-)

Robert

On 13/05/2011 16:39, RobertL wrote:
On May 13, 2:20 pm, wrote:

On 13/05/2011 13:37, TheScullster wrote: OK somewhat OT this but...


My parents'' first washing machine was a front loading Bendix purchased
in approx 1953, an extremely reliable machine as long as you kept the
gear box topped up with oil.. :-) It lasted for years until the
casing rusted away

My parents bought the same; they bought it second hand 1957. It was
still in the kitchen (bolted to the floor) in 2003 when I inherited
the house.


Was it still working,? it must have been approx 50yrs old.
You could open the door during the spin cycle to allow the air to blow
through :-)

Robert


My Father was fascinated with it, he used to sit in front of it watching
the clothes go round. Then he had a B&W TV :-)
Don

On May 13, 1:37*pm, "TheScullster" wrote:
OK somewhat OT this but...

Looking at the previous thread on "Lifetime of a Fridge/Freezer" I just
wondered how much more you would have to pay to get a product that would be
good for ten years minimum.
ISTR Andy Hall being a great advocate of Miele products and his opinion was
held in high esteem by most in this group. *Their products used to carry a
ten year guarantee IIRC but now maybe not so.

So, if you bought a washing machine 30 years ago (say) it would likely have
been less sophisticated and probably more rhobustly engineered.
I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication without a
loss of reliability?". *If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.
But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15 years
for instance?

Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5. *The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last. *But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have" gadgets.

Phil

For a reliable fridge freezer, I've had fancy brands and cheap ones,
and the cheap brands havent lasted any less well.


NT

On Fri, 13 May 2011 15:57:34 +0100, TheScullster wrote:

"djc" wrote

On 13/05/11 13:37, TheScullster wrote:

I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication
without a
loss of reliability?". If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.

White goods are a mature product, I don't think there is anything to add
in
terms of sophistication. 'Sophistication' just means gimicks and more
poorly designed innovations to fail. Modern manufacturing ought to be
able to make the same basic components with greater precision and quality
control. So there might be an increased cost for quality raw materials.
The
problem seems to be the prevailing accountants' and marketeers' view of
business. Sell shiny, sell cheap, sell often.



But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much
would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15
years
for instance?

Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5. The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or
whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last. But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have" gadgets.

The price of things has fallen relative to incomes. I suppose if we were
prepared to pay as much as our parents and grandparent for things which
were once considered luxuries we would insist on them lasting a lifetime.

Good point - it may be that we would need to pay not 50% more but 500% more
for true "quality"!

Phil

Well, 100% more perhaps
http://shop.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/New+A...7015d8c69d9430
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On 13/05/2011 16:30, Tony wrote:
On May 13, 3:57 pm, wrote:
"djc" wrote









On 13/05/11 13:37, TheScullster wrote:

I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication
without a
loss of reliability?". If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.

White goods are a mature product, I don't think there is anything to add
in
terms of sophistication. 'Sophistication' just means gimicks and more
poorly designed innovations to fail. Modern manufacturing ought to be
able to make the same basic components with greater precision and quality
control. So there might be an increased cost for quality raw materials.
The
problem seems to be the prevailing accountants' and marketeers' view of
business. Sell shiny, sell cheap, sell often.

But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much
would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15
years
for instance?

Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5. The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or
whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last. But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have" gadgets.

The price of things has fallen relative to incomes. I suppose if we were
prepared to pay as much as our parents and grandparent for things which
were once considered luxuries we would insist on them lasting a lifetime.

Good point - it may be that we would need to pay not 50% more but 500% more
for true "quality"!

Phil

A couple of years ago I looked into this for a company I worked at
(name withheld to protect the guilty)

To go for premium materials would double the costs of the bill of
materials. However, a 100% increase in materials only resulted in
something like a 30% increase in the overall cost to produce and a
similar increase in sales cost.

Rough estimates on lifespan would have increased it from 3-5 years to
a minimum of 10 years with a gut feel that 20 years would be
achievable.

No-one was interested in stocking it.


From the point of view of the customer, it is very difficult to judge
how long a product will last just viewing it in a shop, unless it is
offered with an appropriate warranty.


--
Michael Chare

I bought a Mercedes 1100 in 1993:
http://www.killiskleaners.co.uk/inde...=mercedes+1100

still going strong and working perfectly. The Kalashnikov of
vacuum cleaners. Strip it into three parts, dunk into sink,
scrub clean, reassemble.

JGH

Tony wrote:
On May 13, 3:57 pm, "TheScullster" wrote:
"djc" wrote









On 13/05/11 13:37, TheScullster wrote:
I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication
without a
loss of reliability?". If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.
White goods are a mature product, I don't think there is anything to add
in
terms of sophistication. 'Sophistication' just means gimicks and more
poorly designed innovations to fail. Modern manufacturing ought to be
able to make the same basic components with greater precision and quality
control. So there might be an increased cost for quality raw materials.
The
problem seems to be the prevailing accountants' and marketeers' view of
business. Sell shiny, sell cheap, sell often.
But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much
would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15
years
for instance?
Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5. The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or
whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last. But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have" gadgets.
The price of things has fallen relative to incomes. I suppose if we were
prepared to pay as much as our parents and grandparent for things which
were once considered luxuries we would insist on them lasting a lifetime.
Good point - it may be that we would need to pay not 50% more but 500% more
for true "quality"!

Phil

A couple of years ago I looked into this for a company I worked at
(name withheld to protect the guilty)

To go for premium materials would double the costs of the bill of
materials. However, a 100% increase in materials only resulted in
something like a 30% increase in the overall cost to produce and a
similar increase in sales cost.

Rough estimates on lifespan would have increased it from 3-5 years to
a minimum of 10 years with a gut feel that 20 years would be
achievable.

No-one was interested in stocking it.



Of course not - 1/3rd of the turnover plus 30% price increase.. I make
that a drop to 44% of annualised turnover. Salesmen are thick, but not
that thick.

On May 13, 9:45*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Tony wrote:
On May 13, 3:57 pm, "TheScullster" wrote:
"djc" wrote

On 13/05/11 13:37, TheScullster wrote:
I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication
without a
loss of reliability?". *If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.
White goods are a mature product, I don't think there is anything to add
in
terms of sophistication. 'Sophistication' just means gimicks and more
poorly designed innovations to fail. * Modern manufacturing ought to be
able to make the same basic components with greater precision and quality
control. So there might be an increased cost for quality raw materials.
The
problem seems to be the prevailing accountants' and marketeers' view of
business. Sell shiny, sell cheap, sell often.
But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much
would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15
years
for instance?
Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5. *The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or
whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last. *But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have" gadgets.
The price of things has fallen relative to incomes. I suppose if we were
prepared to pay as much as our parents and grandparent for things which
were once considered luxuries we would insist on them lasting a lifetime.
Good point - it may be that we would need to pay not 50% more but 500% more
for true "quality"!

Phil

A couple of years ago I looked into this for a company I worked at
(name withheld to protect the guilty)

To go for premium materials would double the costs of the bill of
materials. However, a 100% increase in materials only resulted in
something like a 30% increase in the overall cost to produce and a
similar increase in sales cost.

Rough estimates on lifespan would have increased it from 3-5 years to
a minimum of 10 years with a gut feel that 20 years would be
achievable.

No-one was interested in stocking it.

Of course not - 1/3rd of the turnover plus 30% price increase.. I make
that a drop to 44% of annualised turnover. Salesmen are thick, but not
that thick.


Exactly. That's why you're not going to see high quality, long lasting
goods in shops - it's not in the interests of the shops to stock them.

Tony wrote:
Exactly. That's why you're not going to see high quality, long lasting
goods in shops - it's not in the interests of the shops to stock them.

It can be made in the interests of shops, but expect to pay a much larger
proportion of their overheads due to low turnover. People don't want to do
that.

I recall seeing a Which? article on cookers from 1984. The
bottom-of-the-range recommended cooker was £200. In the 2004 Argos
catalogue, the bottom-of-the-range cooker was £200. There's been quite a
bit of inflation since 1984. So your modern cooker is a lot more cheaply
made.

I was told by a Miele service engineer that even they don't make 'em like
they used to. And it's true: comparing 1980s machines with 2000s machines,
the 80s versions are sturdier and better made. And with a little TLC
(thermostat here, seal there) have lasted 25 years.

The other issue is parts. The automotive industry has an excellent supply
chain: want a fuel filter for a 1959 Mini, your nearest auto factors can
probably get one, if it isn't in stock already, or there are dozens on eBay.
Want a rubber seal for a 1980s dishwasher, you might find it difficult. For
starters, there's minimal aftermarket parts supply beyond vacuum bags.
Miele are excellent in this respect, but cost a packet. As with cars, the
cheapest way is to buy a second machine and rob it for parts, but not
everyone has the space to do that. And it doesn't help with perishables.

Theo

On May 13, 1:37*pm, "TheScullster" wrote:
OK somewhat OT this but...

Looking at the previous thread on "Lifetime of a Fridge/Freezer" I just
wondered how much more you would have to pay to get a product that would be
good for ten years minimum.
ISTR Andy Hall being a great advocate of Miele products and his opinion was
held in high esteem by most in this group. *Their products used to carry a
ten year guarantee IIRC but now maybe not so.

So, if you bought a washing machine 30 years ago (say) it would likely have
been less sophisticated and probably more rhobustly engineered.
I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication without a
loss of reliability?". *If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.
But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15 years
for instance?

Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5. *The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last. *But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have" gadgets.

Phil

In my experience these days price and quality are not neccessarily
linked. You get "good name" firms trading on their past reputation
selling crap at high prices. Needles to say the good name doesn't
last long.
Get in touch with the "Which"/consumer organisation.

The problem is that crap isnot easilyr ecognised these days.

In message
,
harry writes
On May 13, 1:37*pm, "TheScullster" wrote:
OK somewhat OT this but...

Looking at the previous thread on "Lifetime of a Fridge/Freezer" I just
wondered how much more you would have to pay to get a product that would be
good for ten years minimum.
ISTR Andy Hall being a great advocate of Miele products and his opinion was
held in high esteem by most in this group. *Their products used to carry a
ten year guarantee IIRC but now maybe not so.

So, if you bought a washing machine 30 years ago (say) it would likely have
been less sophisticated and probably more rhobustly engineered.
I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication without a
loss of reliability?". *If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.
But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15 years
for instance?

Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5. *The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last. *But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have" gadgets.

Phil

In my experience these days price and quality are not neccessarily
linked. You get "good name" firms trading on their past reputation
selling crap at high prices. Needles to say the good name doesn't
last long.
Get in touch with the "Which"/consumer organisation.

The problem is that crap isnot easilyr ecognised these days.

Hah!

Not white goods but the pair of wellies I purchased from my BM at £7.95
purport to be made by Dunlop CE.

Waterproof so far but... as you walk they flex and make a noise like
high heels on a stone floor. The other issue is age related. These
particular boots flop at the ankles when unworn. So what? Try standing
on one leg, holding the boot top open and at the same time folding the
trouser bottom to allow insertion.... Now try it when you are my age:-(

regards

--
Tim Lamb

In article ,
Donwill writes:
My parents'' first washing machine was a front loading Bendix purchased
in approx 1953, an extremely reliable machine as long as you kept the
gear box topped up with oil.. :-) It lasted for years until the
casing rusted away.

My parents bought an English Electric Liberator well before I was born
http://www.automaticwasher.org/TD/JP...tchboxpaul.jpg
They still had it into my 30's, and there was nothing wrong with it
when they got rid of it. It was quite complicated inside, as it
predated motor speed control, and had a sodding great gearbox, with
large mains solenoids around it to do the gear changing. I still
recall the loud bangs as it went through its gear changes, particulary
for spinning. The only thing I recall going wrong with it was the
slip clutch failing (a large spring wrapped around the drive shaft
which gripped tightly in one direction and slipped in the other
direction to allow the drum to spin down without reverse driving
the gearbox). Dad repaired it.

It also had a sodding great mains transformer in it, as they bought
it when the local mains voltage was 200V, and it got converted to
240V when the area was converted.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On May 14, 7:25*am, harry wrote:
On May 13, 1:37*pm, "TheScullster" wrote:





OK somewhat OT this but...

Looking at the previous thread on "Lifetime of a Fridge/Freezer" I just
wondered how much more you would have to pay to get a product that would be
good for ten years minimum.
ISTR Andy Hall being a great advocate of Miele products and his opinion was
held in high esteem by most in this group. *Their products used to carry a
ten year guarantee IIRC but now maybe not so.

So, if you bought a washing machine 30 years ago (say) it would likely have
been less sophisticated and probably more rhobustly engineered.
I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication without a
loss of reliability?". *If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.
But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15 years
for instance?

Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5. *The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last. *But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have" gadgets.

Phil

In my experience these days price and quality are not neccessarily
linked. You get "good name" firms trading on their past reputation
selling crap at high prices. *Needles to say the good name doesn't
last long.
Get in touch with the "Which"/consumer organisation.

The problem is that crap isnot easilyr ecognised these days.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This applies perfectly to Bosch Fridge Freezers
The polish made ones fall to bits litterly after 3 years

On 14 May, 14:09, "
wrote:
On May 14, 7:25*am, harry wrote:









On May 13, 1:37*pm, "TheScullster" wrote:

OK somewhat OT this but...

Looking at the previous thread on "Lifetime of a Fridge/Freezer" I just
wondered how much more you would have to pay to get a product that would be
good for ten years minimum.
ISTR Andy Hall being a great advocate of Miele products and his opinion was
held in high esteem by most in this group. *Their products used to carry a
ten year guarantee IIRC but now maybe not so.

So, if you bought a washing machine 30 years ago (say) it would likely have
been less sophisticated and probably more rhobustly engineered.
I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication without a
loss of reliability?". *If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.
But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15 years
for instance?

Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5. *The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last. *But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have" gadgets.

Phil

In my experience these days price and quality are not neccessarily
linked. You get "good name" firms trading on their past reputation
selling crap at high prices. *Needles to say the good name doesn't
last long.
Get in touch with the "Which"/consumer organisation.

The problem is that crap isnot easilyr ecognised these days.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This applies perfectly to Bosch Fridge Freezers
The polish made ones fall to bits litterly after 3 years

Surely we've been down this road with cars. The VW Beetle was
expensive for the class of vehicle it was but it was built like a tank
and literally sold in millions. People were prepared to pay more for
the quality and reliability.

Like it or not the same holds true for the major German makes of car
today. None cheap yet all sell in quantities. People are prepared to
pay for a better product. Its not all about flash badges by a long
chalk.

Bad news stories about Miele are fairly rare. After buying a Hoover
washing machine that was practically rebuilt under guarantee in its
first year, SWTSMBO insisted on Miele. and she was right.

Compare the innards of a Miele microwave or extractor fan with any of
the white trash and you will see a tremendous difference.

You pays your money and makes your choice.

Paul Mc Cann.

On 14/05/2011 18:17, fred wrote:

Surely we've been down this road with cars. The VW Beetle was
expensive for the class of vehicle it was but it was built like a tank
and literally sold in millions. People were prepared to pay more for
the quality and reliability.

Like it or not the same holds true for the major German makes of car
today. None cheap yet all sell in quantities. People are prepared to
pay for a better product. Its not all about flash badges by a long
chalk.

snip

It may hold for German cars made _today_ but that hasn't always been true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercede...ality_rankings

reflects information I have heard elsewhere.

Andy

On Fri, 13 May 2011 16:28:51 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

djc wrote:
On 13/05/11 13:37, TheScullster wrote:

I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication without a
loss of reliability?". If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.

White goods are a mature product, I don't think there is anything to add in
terms of sophistication. 'Sophistication' just means gimicks and more
poorly designed innovations to fail. Modern manufacturing ought to be
able to make the same basic components with greater precision and quality
control. So there might be an increased cost for quality raw materials. The
problem seems to be the prevailing accountants' and marketeers' view of
business. Sell shiny, sell cheap, sell often.



But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15 years
for instance?

Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5. The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last. But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have" gadgets.

The price of things has fallen relative to incomes. I suppose if we were
prepared to pay as much as our parents and grandparent for things which
were once considered luxuries we would insist on them lasting a lifetime.



..and insist that they were fully repairable.

And insist that spares are available for a reasonable cost.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

On Sat, 14 May 2011 10:17:21 -0700 (PDT), fred
wrote:

On 14 May, 14:09, "
wrote:
On May 14, 7:25*am, harry wrote:









On May 13, 1:37*pm, "TheScullster" wrote:

OK somewhat OT this but...

Looking at the previous thread on "Lifetime of a Fridge/Freezer" I just
wondered how much more you would have to pay to get a product that would be
good for ten years minimum.
ISTR Andy Hall being a great advocate of Miele products and his opinion was
held in high esteem by most in this group. *Their products used to carry a
ten year guarantee IIRC but now maybe not so.

So, if you bought a washing machine 30 years ago (say) it would likely have
been less sophisticated and probably more rhobustly engineered.
I suppose a key question is "Can you have increased sophistication without a
loss of reliability?". *If the answer to this is no, then I guess we are
resigned to repairs/replacement over a shorter life cycle.
But if it is possible to build reliable sophistication, then how much would
it cost to achieve this and to build the entire machine to last 10-15 years
for instance?

Personally I would consider paying 50-75% more for a product that will
definitely last 10 years (hopefully more) instead of 5. *The aggro of
pricing, arranging delivery and even fitting if it's integrated or whatever
is enough to make me want white goods to last. *But then I'm not that
interested in having the latest "must have" gadgets.

Phil

In my experience these days price and quality are not neccessarily
linked. You get "good name" firms trading on their past reputation
selling crap at high prices. *Needles to say the good name doesn't
last long.
Get in touch with the "Which"/consumer organisation.

The problem is that crap isnot easilyr ecognised these days.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This applies perfectly to Bosch Fridge Freezers
The polish made ones fall to bits litterly after 3 years

Surely we've been down this road with cars. The VW Beetle was
expensive for the class of vehicle it was but it was built like a tank
and literally sold in millions. People were prepared to pay more for
the quality and reliability.

Like it or not the same holds true for the major German makes of car
today. None cheap yet all sell in quantities. People are prepared to
pay for a better product. Its not all about flash badges by a long
chalk.

Bad news stories about Miele are fairly rare. After buying a Hoover
washing machine that was practically rebuilt under guarantee in its
first year, SWTSMBO insisted on Miele. and she was right.

Compare the innards of a Miele microwave or extractor fan with any of
the white trash and you will see a tremendous difference.

You pays your money and makes your choice.

Yes but a Miele may be more than twice the price of a cheaper machine
but may not last twice as long.

My Bosch W/M is over 10 years old now and was less than 1/2 the price
of a Miele. I have had to repair it a couple of times but it was only
replacement of brushes and seals.
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Due to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking some articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

On Fri, 13 May 2011 08:39:23 -0700, RobertL wrote:

On May 13, 2:20Â*pm, Donwill wrote:
On 13/05/2011 13:37, TheScullster wrote: OK somewhat OT this but...

My parents'' first washing machine was a front loading Bendix purchased
in approx 1953, an extremely reliable machine as long as you kept the
gear box topped up with oil.. :-) Â* Â* Â*It lasted for years until the
casing rusted away

My parents bought the same; they bought it second hand 1957. It was
still in the kitchen (bolted to the floor) in 2003 when I inherited the
house.

Impressive. Our FF's 34 years old this year, and the washing machine and
dryer are mid-80's, so they have a few years on them too. I'm in the US
and it's only recently that basic, well-tested designs have started to
become drowned out by modern bells-and-whistles models; there's still a
healthy spares supply available for all the old kit.

Yes, modern stuff is more efficient - but not if it only runs for a
fraction of the time before becoming uneconomical to repair and needing
complete replacement. Heck, the stuff I have is so simple that even if
spares don't exist, I can probably make many of the parts for them.

cheers

Jules