I met up with an older electrician yesterday and was reminiscing as
old men do !! I was talking of my teenage years in the mid 1950's and
helping my father rewire an old property he'd bought - metal fish
wires and threading steel conduit were the 'apprentice's' tasks. The
guy challenge my memory on the introduction of ring circuits saying
that it was well after that they were brought in (another memory of
crossing line and neutral in a box and the resulting impressively big
bang when the large cast iron fuse box was thrown on!).

I've no doubt that I was correct but can anyone point to when the ring
system was introduced.

Rob

robgraham wrote:
I met up with an older electrician yesterday and was reminiscing as
old men do !! I was talking of my teenage years in the mid 1950's and
helping my father rewire an old property he'd bought - metal fish
wires and threading steel conduit were the 'apprentice's' tasks. The
guy challenge my memory on the introduction of ring circuits saying
that it was well after that they were brought in (another memory of
crossing line and neutral in a box and the resulting impressively big
bang when the large cast iron fuse box was thrown on!).

I've no doubt that I was correct but can anyone point to when the ring
system was introduced.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_ci...istory_and_use

--
Adam

robgraham used his keyboard to write :
I've no doubt that I was correct but can anyone point to when the ring
system was introduced.

I believe during WWII as a means to reduce the amount of copper used.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On May 8, 9:54*am, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:
robgraham used his keyboard to write :

I've no doubt that I was correct but can anyone point to when the ring
system was introduced.

I believe during WWII as a means to reduce the amount of copper used.

--
Regards,
* * * * Harry (M1BYT) (L)http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Thanks guys - I doubt I will meet this guy again but at least knowing
the logic behind its development will allow me to be a bit more
positive next time I bore someone with my reminiscences.
Rob

On May 8, 9:26*am, robgraham wrote:
I met up with an older electrician yesterday and was reminiscing as
old men do !! *I was talking of my teenage years in the mid 1950's and
helping my father rewire an old property he'd bought - metal fish
wires and threading steel conduit were the 'apprentice's' tasks. *The
guy challenge my memory on the introduction of ring circuits saying
that it was well after that they were brought in (another memory of
crossing line and neutral in a box and the resulting impressively big
bang when the large cast iron fuse box was thrown on!).

I've no doubt that I was correct but can anyone point to when the ring
system was introduced.

Rob

Late 1940s. Perhaps you encountered the old 4 fused rings?
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...istory_and_use


NT

"Tabby" wrote in message
...

On May 8, 9:26 am, robgraham wrote:
I met up with an older electrician yesterday and was reminiscing as
old men do !! I was talking of my teenage years in the mid 1950's and
helping my father rewire an old property he'd bought - metal fish
wires and threading steel conduit were the 'apprentice's' tasks. The
guy challenge my memory on the introduction of ring circuits saying
that it was well after that they were brought in (another memory of
crossing line and neutral in a box and the resulting impressively big
bang when the large cast iron fuse box was thrown on!).

I've no doubt that I was correct but can anyone point to when the ring
system was introduced.

Rob

Late 1940s. Perhaps you encountered the old 4 fused rings?
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...istory_and_use


NT

Some fascinating reading - amazing to think that we were fighting a war when
people were debating all this.

DerbyBoy wrote:

I've no doubt that I was correct but can anyone point to when the ring
system was introduced.

I've no idea when it was introduced, but it seems a great system to me,
as are the fused square-pin plugs.

I spend some time in Italy, and the system there seems very silly,
with 3 types of plug (fat and thin 3-pin,
and what I take to be the French circular 2-pin).

If only the continent would adopt the UK system,
and in return the UK would stop the insane practice
of storing water in the roof-space,
which at the same time maximises the chance of freezing,
and also maximises the damage that will be done when that occurs.

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

On May 8, 12:39*pm, Timothy Murphy wrote:
DerbyBoy wrote:
I've no doubt that I was correct but can anyone point to when the ring
system was introduced.

I've no idea when it was introduced, but it seems a great system to me,
as are the fused square-pin plugs.

I spend some time in Italy, and the system there seems very silly,
with 3 types of plug (fat and thin 3-pin,
and what I take to be the French circular 2-pin).

If only the continent would adopt the UK system,
and in return the UK would stop the insane practice
of storing water in the roof-space,
which at the same time maximises the chance of freezing,
and also maximises the damage that will be done when that occurs.

Ring circuits are superior to radials in terms of safety, reliability
and cost, and fwiw eco credentials since they use less copper (in most
cases). So its a shame that, due to some foolish thinking being
presented as wisdom, they are losing popularity to radials.

Re water in the roof space, what system do you suggest would be
better?


NT

Ring circuits are superior to radials in terms of safety, reliability
and cost, and fwiw eco credentials since they use less copper (in most
cases). So its a shame that, due to some foolish thinking being
presented as wisdom, they are losing popularity to radials.

http://www.theiet.org/publishing/wir...ns/ringcir.cfm has both
pros and cons set out for the meeting held at the IET in 2007. (As the
merest dilettante I was persuaded that radials were better than rings,
and trees better than both.)

--
Robin
PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com

On May 8, 1:49*pm, "Robin" wrote:
Ring circuits are superior to radials in terms of safety, reliability
and cost, and fwiw eco credentials since they use less copper (in most
cases). So its a shame that, due to some foolish thinking being
presented as wisdom, they are losing popularity to radials.

http://www.theiet.org/publishing/wir...ringcir.cfmhas both
pros and cons set out for the meeting held at the IET in 2007. *(As the
merest dilettante I was persuaded that radials were better than rings,
and trees better than both.)

Lovegrove's commentary in the disadvantages pdf there shows how devoid
of elementary logic his views are.


NT

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Tabby saying
something like:

Re water in the roof space, what system do you suggest would be
better?

Beer in the roof space, of course.

Tabby wrote:

Re water in the roof space, what system do you suggest would be
better?

Do they use this system anywhere else in the world?

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

On May 8, 2:40*pm, Timothy Murphy wrote:
Tabby wrote:
Re water in the roof space, what system do you suggest would be
better?

Do they use this system anywhere else in the world?

--
Timothy Murphy *
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

I think you do have to remember that the UK in all likelihood
introduced piped water to its populace first, and that the tank in the
attic was the solution to cover the possibility of irregularity in
the supply. So it's historical, just as much as the ring main was
introduced for what is now a historical reason.

I would suggest that your aggression on the topic has almost a
hysterical atmosphere to it; like ring mains the very significant
majority in the UK is happy with a) it's domestic electrical
distribution, and b) it's water system.

Rob

robgraham wrote:
On May 8, 2:40 pm, Timothy Murphy wrote:
Tabby wrote:
Re water in the roof space, what system do you suggest would be
better?
Do they use this system anywhere else in the world?

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

I think you do have to remember that the UK in all likelihood
introduced piped water to its populace first, and that the tank in the
attic was the solution to cover the possibility of irregularity in
the supply. So it's historical, just as much as the ring main was
introduced for what is now a historical reason.

I would suggest that your aggression on the topic has almost a
hysterical atmosphere to it; like ring mains the very significant
majority in the UK is happy with a) it's domestic electrical
distribution, and b) it's water system.

Rob
yep. And in future if Huhne gets his way we will need a battery in the
roof as well.

On Sun, 08 May 2011 12:39:20 +0100, Timothy Murphy
wrote:



If only the continent would adopt the UK system,
and in return the UK would stop the insane practice
of storing water in the roof-space,
which at the same time maximises the chance of freezing,
and also maximises the damage that will be done when that occurs.

OTH a tank in the loft with a good few gallons in it is a useful
reserve should the supply fail. This thread started with an electrical
circuit developed in the time of WW2. Many a resident at that time was
still able to carry on making tea ,cooking with water from a loft tank
until the water supply was restored. Hopefully air raids won't happen
like that again but with water becoming a scarcer resource who knows
what the future may bring in the way of rationing.

G.Harman

On May 8, 12:39*pm, Timothy Murphy wrote:
DerbyBoy wrote:
I've no doubt that I was correct but can anyone point to when the ring
system was introduced.

I've no idea when it was introduced, but it seems a great system to me,
as are the fused square-pin plugs.

I spend some time in Italy, and the system there seems very silly,
with 3 types of plug (fat and thin 3-pin,
and what I take to be the French circular 2-pin).

If only the continent would adopt the UK system,
and in return the UK would stop the insane practice
of storing water in the roof-space,
which at the same time maximises the chance of freezing,
and also maximises the damage that will be done when that occurs.

--
Timothy Murphy *
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

In Southern Europe they store water in the cellar in many places.

robgraham wrote:

Re water in the roof space, what system do you suggest would be
better?

Do they use this system anywhere else in the world?

I think you do have to remember that the UK in all likelihood
introduced piped water to its populace first, and that the tank in the
attic was the solution to cover the possibility of irregularity in
the supply. So it's historical, just as much as the ring main was
introduced for what is now a historical reason.

Minimizing the quantity of copper required seems to me entirely reasonable,
today as much as in the past.
Presumably it saves a little power, as well as copper.

Storing water in the roof seems to me entirely unreasonable,
even for the purpose you mention.
In Italy where I spend a lot of time, they have public taps in the street
for any occasion when it might be necessary
(which is never, in my experience to date).

My viewpoint is that if the pressure is sufficient to get the water
up to the roof, it is more than enough to get it to the loo.

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

Timothy Murphy wrote:

My viewpoint is that if the pressure is sufficient to get the water
up to the roof, it is more than enough to get it to the loo.

The British system came about when available mains supplies couldn't
keep up with the peak demand. The tank in the loft filled up overnight,
and emptied when the family had their wash and used the toilet before
they went to work, then refilled again during the day while everybody
was at work.

In the last half Century, things have improved to the point where the
mains can cope, though when I woke up a few months back to no water at
the drinking water tap and a water feature in the street outside, my
passengers were very glad I had a bathful of water in the loft tank.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Sun, 08 May 2011 09:15:05 -0700, harry wrote:

In Southern Europe they store water in the cellar in many places.

I was about to pipe up* with the suggestion that that's better wrt
hygiene (legionella etc) though you obviously need a pump to supply the
house from that. And when the leccy's off as well ...


* pun unintended.

--
John Stumbles

I'm more non-competitive than you

On 8 May 2011 20:27:25 GMT, John Stumbles
wrote:

On Sun, 08 May 2011 09:15:05 -0700, harry wrote:

In Southern Europe they store water in the cellar in many places.

I was about to pipe up* with the suggestion that that's better wrt
hygiene (legionella etc) though you obviously need a pump to supply the
house from that. And when the leccy's off as well ...


.... use a hand pump :-)

--
Frank Erskine

On 08/05/2011 12:06, DerbyBoy wrote:

Late 1940s. Perhaps you encountered the old 4 fused rings?
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...istory_and_use


NT

Some fascinating reading - amazing to think that we were fighting a war
when people were debating all this.

They actually did forward planning in those days. These days they just
talk about forward planning. :-)


--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

On 8 May,
robgraham wrote:

I met up with an older electrician yesterday and was reminiscing as
old men do !! I was talking of my teenage years in the mid 1950's and
helping my father rewire an old property he'd bought - metal fish
wires and threading steel conduit were the 'apprentice's' tasks. The
guy challenge my memory on the introduction of ring circuits saying
that it was well after that they were brought in (another memory of
crossing line and neutral in a box and the resulting impressively big
bang when the large cast iron fuse box was thrown on!).

I've no doubt that I was correct but can anyone point to when the ring
system was introduced.

Wiring alterations were done in my parent's house in about 1957. Double pole
fusing, TRS cable and not a ring in sight. This was done by the then
electricity board, who presumably used what was required.

In 1962 I worked in an educational establishment. Some of the more modern
parts had 13A sockets, three different versions of them. Half my time was
spent making and repairing adaptors between the various systems. I dooubt if
many wold have survived (when new) my pat testing regime of later years!

--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
My viewpoint is that if the pressure is sufficient to get the water
up to the roof, it is more than enough to get it to the loo.

The British system came about when available mains supplies couldn't
keep up with the peak demand. The tank in the loft filled up overnight,
and emptied when the family had their wash and used the toilet before
they went to work, then refilled again during the day while everybody
was at work.

In the last half Century, things have improved to the point where the
mains can cope, though when I woke up a few months back to no water at
the drinking water tap and a water feature in the street outside, my
passengers were very glad I had a bathful of water in the loft tank.

The mains supply round here can't cope with filling a bath quickly. And I
doubt it can anywhere if fed via the usual 15mm pipe.

--
*Women like silent men; they think they're listening.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
wrote:
Wiring alterations were done in my parent's house in about 1957. Double
pole fusing, TRS cable and not a ring in sight. This was done by the
then electricity board, who presumably used what was required.

I doubt it - just some dinosaur. Double pole fusing dates back to DC days
and is positively dangerous where one side of an AC supply is grounded
elsewhere.

--
*The hardness of the butter is proportional to the softness of the bread *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Practice is slow to change though. I worked on a friends place where the
lighting circuits had no earth. Build about 6 years after earthing of
them became "standard".

Yes- I've seen installations where all the cable and fittings had ground
and ground terminals, but the ECC just cut off at each termination point.

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Practice is slow to change though. I worked on a friends place where
the lighting circuits had no earth. Build about 6 years after
earthing of them became "standard".

Yes- I've seen installations where all the cable and fittings had
ground and ground terminals, but the ECC just cut off at each
termination point.

That is very common. I guess the electrician could no longer get twin cable
and was not going to bother using the earth on the T&E.

--
Adam

On 9 May,
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
Wiring alterations were done in my parent's house in about 1957. Double
pole fusing, TRS cable and not a ring in sight. This was done by the
then electricity board, who presumably used what was required.

I doubt it - just some dinosaur. Double pole fusing dates back to DC days
and is positively dangerous where one side of an AC supply is grounded
elsewhere.

It was definitely done by the North East Electricity Board, and was
definitely later than 1956. Two new circuits, one 15A socket with clock point
teed off, and one 5A socket both to a new switch fuse..... Arghh ... it was
single pole fused .. TWO circuits, two fuses.

The original lighting circuit dating from 1936 was lead covered, double pole
fused with junction boxes filled with screwits - and we never had a fire from
them.

--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

In article
,
Andy Dingley wrote:
That's the main reason for fuses.

Unless you're doing a GCSE. In there (recent year's past papers), the
function of a fuse to blow and isolate following a live-to-earth
fault.

An installation with DP fusing might not have an actual earth anywhere.
;-)

...and no, RCDs don't get a mention.

Explains the education of some youngsters.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message
,
Neil Williams writes
On May 9, 11:41*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

The mains supply round here can't cope with filling a bath quickly. And I
doubt it can anywhere if fed via the usual 15mm pipe.

I have a combi boiler and no tank, and my mains pressure is pretty
good.


Yeah, but it won't help wit filling the bath at a decent rate.

The combi will be the limiting factor here though - the rate at which it
can heat the water. Takes ages to fill a bath - good shower though
--
Chris French

chris French wrote:

I have a combi boiler and no tank, and my mains pressure is pretty
good.

Yeah, but it won't help wit filling the bath at a decent rate.

I've never noticed that baths take a long time to fill
in France or Italy.

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

In article ,
robgraham writes:
On May 8, 2:40*pm, Timothy Murphy wrote:
Tabby wrote:
Re water in the roof space, what system do you suggest would be
better?

Do they use this system anywhere else in the world?

I think you do have to remember that the UK in all likelihood
introduced piped water to its populace first, and that the tank in the
attic was the solution to cover the possibility of irregularity in
the supply. So it's historical, just as much as the ring main was
introduced for what is now a historical reason.

Loft tanks were first used in high class homes without mains water,
in order to provide running water from a well or stream with a pump.
Homes with piped water did not need or have them.

The next impetus was when we started heating water. The first fireplace
driven water heaters tended to blow up for many reasons, but one of
them was the mains water pressure inside the cast iron heating tank,
particularly when it boiled. This problem was solved with a loft tank
to reduce pressure, and to allow boiling steam to escape. This was the
origin of loft tanks in most homes.

What you might well ask is why we kept them for so long, and I don't
really have an answer for that. We had much more restrictive water
bylaws than the rest of Europe before EU harmonisation, and that may
have caused us to stick with older designs. Mains pressure hot water
cylinders and low pressure hot water storage cylinders fed with a
pressure reducing valve were both common in the rest of the EU,
whilst being effectively outlawed here. There also seemed to be more
instant water heating (geysers) which run at mains pressure, gas and
electric powered (particularly Germany), whereas a UK electricity
domestic supply is not powerful enough for this.

There are other reasons loft tanks are used. In any commercial
premises providing some type of essential service, loft tanks are
necessary to provide coverage for loss of mains water supply, without
which you end up having to send all staff home if the supply fails.
I've worked in the financial sector where this has happened in a large
24x7 datacentre, and the premises were kept open and running by having
a tanker lorry come and refill the loft tanks after a couple of days.
I don't think this was ever a consideration for homes though.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]