In article ,
says...
I often tin the wires when wiring a mains plug but not much else.


Shouldn't do that. The normal screw onto copper is relatively stable,
but solder is a) too soft and b) corrodes, both of which can lead to a
loose and therefore hot connection.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

Tim Streater wrote:

I often tin the wires when wiring a mains plug but not much else.

I used to do that but not any more. I think tinning the wires removed their
"elastic" properties and renders the tinned end of the wire "plastic".
Consequently, the connection is more likely to loosen & overheat.

I could be wrong and my explanation may be b*llocks but I think you'll find
it's not recommended.

the other Tim

On Feb 28, 5:00*pm, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
DIY and small scale use (what we are talking about here) is very
different to a six-sigma volume production environment where
everything must be just-so.

Six-sigma generally means really large scale production, where cost
cutting in production over-rules everything else (except legislation).

So your products are presumably cheap consumer electronics, where lead-
free solder has become shorthand for "crap on the customers, they'll
only have to go and buy another one".

On Feb 28, 5:19*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
* *Tim Streater wrote:

Fortunately I still have quite a bit on the reel of solder my brother
got when he was in the Navy 55 years ago.

Don't do much soldering, then? ;-)

....and it'll be 18 swg, not 22

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On Feb 28, 12:50 am, "brass monkey" wrote:
"Donwill" wrote in message

...

Can you still buy leaded cored solder wire for electronic use? I've just
used up my old reel and I cannot get on with this lead free crap. I've
heard it's been banned in Europe but would it be available from
elsewhere.
After all were supposed to be global now aren't we?
Don

lead free crap it certainly is.

Rubbish. You just don't know how to solder properly.

I should do, for a year or so (45 years back) I was soldering maybe 30-40
joints a minute, all day, every day.

On Feb 28, 5:59*pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Feb 28, 5:19*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
* *Tim Streater wrote:

Fortunately I still have quite a bit on the reel of solder my brother
got when he was in the Navy 55 years ago.

Don't do much soldering, then? ;-)

...and it'll be 18 swg, not 22

22SWG? Still using the thick stuff, then...
I'm currently using mostly 24 or equivalent, with 0.4mm (between 26
and 27) for the really fine stuff

In article 37b3b520-3e0b-46b7-9dbe-
,
says...
22SWG? Still using the thick stuff, then...

22SWG is just right for the soldering I do - that's why I have a reel of
it I bought - er - twenty years ago!

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

In article ,
Man at B&Q wrote:

So? Plenty of stuff made with leaded solder was shoddily made. I had a
Philips (a supposedly good brand) TV in the 1980s that failed withing
it's guarantee period. It was due to inadequate soldering where the
nature of the components (flyback txformer, IIRC) and copper pour on
the PCB sucked the heat away too rapidly.



Hah, common fault on the philips monitor that often shipped with Amigas.
1084 IIRC. Flyback transformer needed resoldering and it came back to life.
Had two. Both had same problem :-)

Darren

Andy Dingley wrote:

No one (Geoff aside) has enough
environmental exposure to solder for it to be a problem.

I suspect that the reasons for removing lead were to do with disposal at end
of life rather than exposure during use. Lead probably affects stack clean
up after incineration and almost certainly ends up in water draining from
land fill cells ( but not necessarily in ground water if this leachate is
dealt with well).

The big hits must have been removing lead from petrol, paint and water pipes
in soft water areas.

AJH

On 28/02/2011 17:31, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Feb 28, 3:54 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Feb 28, 1:33 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
tony sayer wrote:
In article

s.com, Man at B&Q scribeth thus
On Feb 28, 12:50 am, "brass monkey" wrote:
"Donwill" wrote in message
...
Can you still buy leaded cored solder wire for electronic use?
I've just
used up my old reel and I cannot get on with this lead free
crap. I've
heard it's been banned in Europe but would it be available from
elsewhere.
After all were supposed to be global now aren't we?
Don
lead free crap it certainly is.
Rubbish. You just don't know how to solder properly.
MBQ
Tin whiskers anyone;?...
Indeed. I tried hand soldering with it once. It is exactly as you say.
The stage where its essentially porridge rather than solid or liquid,
and its disinclination to wet, makes it a vile job and one best
left to
a well controlled production line.
Another one who doesn't know how to solder...
Another one who was actually trained how to solder as a 'prentice back
in 1967, and spent half his working life soldering. Not to mention
setting up production line solder wave equipment.

So why can't you solder with lead free solder?

I can, but it needs a huge amount more attention to get a halfway decent
result, and I am still suspicious that the joint will - as Tony pointed
out - fail later due to the intrinsic properties of the alloy.

You have to clean better, flux better, support the joint properly as it
cools, and be very precise on the amount of solder and the exact heat of
the joint. In short everything is several times more critical. That
isn't so bad in production, but its a nightmare for hand soldering. we
had all sorts of troubles with trying to use low lead soldering alloys
on a wave soldering machine as it was, but in time, once the temperature
and flux levels were adjusted, we managed.


Its like banning rubber soled shoes, and then dictating that everyone
run in clogs, which end up being sprung with springs to take the
jarring out. The solution is worse than the problem it was supposed to
solve.

When I were a prentice, twas at Marconis, and the procedures they taught
were the results of over half a century of lead soldering in critical
avionics applications. There simply isn't that depth of lead free
soldering experience available yet. Which is why its still not mandated
for specialised kit of high criticality.

The appalingly stupid business off banning it in solder, whilst leaving
millions of tonnes in batteries, and on church rooves, is just an
example of more pressure group knee jerk ******** we have come to expect
from weak minded ineffectual left wing knee jerk governments in Europe.



MBQ

I fully agree the stuff is crap, but batteries were exempt because there
is so much lead it will be recycled (good value) but with a few solder
joints it is not cost effective so can easily end up in landfill etc.
But I do hate rules taken to extremes, solder could easily have been
managed.

On Mon, 28 Feb 2011 17:40:45 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

I often tin the wires when wiring a mains plug but not much else.

That'll start another discussion!

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

"brass monkey" wrote in message
eb.com...

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On Feb 28, 12:50 am, "brass monkey" wrote:
"Donwill" wrote in message

...

Can you still buy leaded cored solder wire for electronic use? I've
just
used up my old reel and I cannot get on with this lead free crap. I've
heard it's been banned in Europe but would it be available from
elsewhere.
After all were supposed to be global now aren't we?
Don

lead free crap it certainly is.

Rubbish. You just don't know how to solder properly.

I should do, for a year or so (45 years back) I was soldering maybe 30-40
joints a minute, all day, every day.

That's pretty slow. I remember seeing women (in the pcb assembly factory I
once worked at) soldering rows of IC pins; the soldering iron moved almost
continuously from one pin to the next.

They seemed to use a particular kind of solder too; when I asked them to do
a one-off job for me, I requested they use my solder (some multicore stuff),
which they complained of as being smelly. All around 25 years ago so none of
this lead-free.

--
Bartc

On 28/02/2011 21:07, BartC wrote:


"brass monkey" wrote in message
eb.com...

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On Feb 28, 12:50 am, "brass monkey" wrote:
"Donwill" wrote in message

...

Can you still buy leaded cored solder wire for electronic use? I've
just
used up my old reel and I cannot get on with this lead free crap. I've
heard it's been banned in Europe but would it be available from
elsewhere.
After all were supposed to be global now aren't we?
Don

lead free crap it certainly is.

Rubbish. You just don't know how to solder properly.

I should do, for a year or so (45 years back) I was soldering maybe
30-40 joints a minute, all day, every day.

That's pretty slow. I remember seeing women (in the pcb assembly factory
I once worked at) soldering rows of IC pins; the soldering iron moved
almost continuously from one pin to the next.

They seemed to use a particular kind of solder too; when I asked them to
do a one-off job for me, I requested they use my solder (some multicore
stuff), which they complained of as being smelly. All around 25 years
ago so none of this lead-free.

And they used proper rosin flux as well. Good cleaning power, but best
washed off the pcb afterwards, and the best stuff for cleaning - Freon.
Banned as well, but this time for a good reason.

Tim Downie ) wibbled on Monday 28 February 2011
17:53:

Tim Streater wrote:

I often tin the wires when wiring a mains plug but not much else.

I used to do that but not any more. I think tinning the wires removed
their "elastic" properties and renders the tinned end of the wire
"plastic". Consequently, the connection is more likely to loosen &
overheat.

I could be wrong and my explanation may be b*llocks but I think you'll
find it's not recommended.

the other Tim

2 things happen for the worse:

a) Solder is fairly malleable so under compression it does not "spring" much
to retain compressive forces, but moves out of the way leading to the joint
loosening over time.

b) Where the solder binds the copper strands togther, the abilitity of the
strands to slide is inhibited wich forms a weak point proned to bend
fractures. What's more, is due to the wicking action of solder, the point of
rigidity can be a fair few mm away from the bit you actually tinned, which
is often the part that you want to try to bend afterwards to lay the wire
down in the housing.

a) is more of a problem for the scenario described. b) tends to be more of
an issue on small wires subjct to movement.

The correct method, if you must, is to crimp a ferrule on the end but it is
not necessary for big wires in plugs. I've done this for RCBO where the
neutral and functional earth wires are often super finely stranded for
flexibility (which doesn;t suit the huge terminals they have to go into) and
ELV cables on my downlighters where I used a high temperatue silicone wire
(very fine wire is difficult to get into a regular terminal without strands
going everywhere).

Cheers

Tim

--
Tim Watts

"BartC" wrote in message
...


"brass monkey" wrote in message
eb.com...

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On Feb 28, 12:50 am, "brass monkey" wrote:
"Donwill" wrote in message

...

Can you still buy leaded cored solder wire for electronic use? I've
just
used up my old reel and I cannot get on with this lead free crap. I've
heard it's been banned in Europe but would it be available from
elsewhere.
After all were supposed to be global now aren't we?
Don

lead free crap it certainly is.

Rubbish. You just don't know how to solder properly.

I should do, for a year or so (45 years back) I was soldering maybe 30-40
joints a minute, all day, every day.

That's pretty slow. I remember seeing women (in the pcb assembly factory I
once worked at) soldering rows of IC pins; the soldering iron moved almost
continuously from one pin to the next.

You're quite right, I was guessing at 30-40. I just soldered a row of
imaginary pins and it's prolly more like 80+. Whatever, I wish I had a penny
for each one
At one point I was thought to have lead poisoning from soldering. In
hospital I went for a weekend to have jabs in the bum every few hours with
some very thick gunge. Not to worry, they had mixed up my samples with
someone else and didn't expect the gunge to have any nasty side-effects. NHS
eh? And they actually seemed to care back then.

They seemed to use a particular kind of solder too; when I asked them to
do a one-off job for me, I requested they use my solder (some multicore
stuff), which they complained of as being smelly. All around 25 years ago
so none of this lead-free.

Tim Streater ) wibbled on Monday 28 February 2011
22:13:


Are there ones which are small enough? The reason I'm doing this in the
first place is I got fed up with twisting the wires round to form a
bundle, and then finding as I tighten the screw that either the end of
the screw cut some of the strands, or that some of the strands were
pushed sideways and so were not caught under the screw, and were in fact
loose in the fixture. No chance of them moving out and shorting, I don't
suppose.

A ferrule would need to be quite small for a 13-amp plug, seems to me.


That's at the medium end - they go fairly small (0.5mm2) upto 6mm2

These are the ones I use:

http://uk.rs-
online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=searchProducts&sear chTerm=uninsulated+bootlace&x=0&y=0

(scuse wrap)

Ideally you'll need the correct crimp but I dare say pliers will suffice,
for the smaller sizes at least, as, unlike typical usage of crimps, these
will be further squished by a screw anyway.

--
Tim Watts

On Feb 28, 3:33*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* *Man at B&Q wrote:

So? Plenty of stuff made with leaded solder was shoddily made. I had a
Philips (a supposedly good brand) TV in the 1980s that failed withing
it's guarantee period. It was due to inadequate soldering where the
nature of the components (flyback txformer, IIRC) and copper pour on
the PCB sucked the heat away too rapidly. It could have easily been
foreseen with better QA and was easily fixed with a correctly rated
soldering iron. The repairman knew exactly what was wrong as he had
repaired so many with the same fault.

Solder faults round a LOPT etc are usually due to vibration.

I'm pretty sure this was infant mortality due to poor soldering. Once
fixed, it lasted for years. I did have to replace the nicad that held
up the tuning memory soom good while later.

MBQ

On Feb 28, 5:31*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Feb 28, 3:54 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Feb 28, 1:33 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
tony sayer wrote:
In article
s.com, Man at B&Q scribeth thus
On Feb 28, 12:50 am, "brass monkey" wrote:
"Donwill" wrote in message
...
Can you still buy leaded cored solder wire for electronic use? I've just
used up my old reel and I cannot get on with this lead free crap.. I've
heard it's been banned in Europe but would it be available from elsewhere.
After all were supposed to be global now aren't we?
Don
lead free crap it certainly is.
Rubbish. You just don't know how to solder properly.
MBQ
Tin whiskers anyone;?...
Indeed. I tried hand soldering with it once. It is exactly as you say.
The stage where its essentially porridge rather than solid or liquid,
and its disinclination to wet, makes it a vile job and one best left to
a well controlled production line.
Another one who doesn't know how to solder...
Another one who was actually trained how to solder as a 'prentice back
in 1967, and spent half his working life soldering. Not to mention
setting up production line solder wave equipment.

So why can't you solder with lead free solder?

I can, but it needs a huge amount more attention to get a halfway decent
result,

It needs the correct technique and tools. Just like any soldering
job.

MBQ

On Feb 28, 5:07*pm, Skipweasel
wrote:
In article 54671980-4a8e-4aca-9f9a-36bfba9ec2f6
@a11g2000pri.googlegroups.com, says...

So why can't you solder with lead free solder?

You can - it just ain't so easy

It's not as difficult as some seem to think.

MBQ

On Feb 28, 5:59*pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Feb 28, 5:00*pm, "Man at B&Q" wrote:

DIY and small scale use (what we are talking about here) is very
different to a six-sigma volume production environment where
everything must be just-so.

Six-sigma generally means really large scale production, where cost
cutting in production over-rules everything else (except legislation).

So your products are presumably cheap consumer electronics, where lead-
free solder has become shorthand for "crap on the customers, they'll
only have to go and buy another one".

That may be your attitude, but it's not mine.

MBQ

In article
,
Man at B&Q wrote:
Solder faults round a LOPT etc are usually due to vibration.

I'm pretty sure this was infant mortality due to poor soldering. Once
fixed, it lasted for years. I did have to replace the nicad that held
up the tuning memory soom good while later.

I've fixed many an Acorn monitor (Philips) where re-soldering the LOPT got
it going again. And if it were just poor soldering, why always in the same
place?

Philips incidentally seemed very good at poor soldering even with leaded
solder. One of their early CD players (104?) was very prone.

--
*It IS as bad as you think, and they ARE out to get you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Feb 28, 5:07 pm, Skipweasel
wrote:
In article 54671980-4a8e-4aca-9f9a-36bfba9ec2f6
@a11g2000pri.googlegroups.com, says...

So why can't you solder with lead free solder?

You can - it just ain't so easy

It's not as difficult as some seem to think.

I take it you don't do any normal hand soldering? If you did, you'd know
why lead free is simply a waste of time.

--
*Santa's helpers are subordinate clauses*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Man at B&Q ) wibbled on Tuesday 01 March 2011 10:47:


It needs the correct technique and tools. Just like any soldering
job.

MBQ

That's all very well, but what about the long term problems?

http://www.tracelabs.com/capability....pability_id=18

I'n my view, we are replacing a known good method (60/40) with one that
already suggests it has issues - the fact that a number of industries are
exempted from the lead-free solder ban suggests the suspicions to be well
founded.

--
Tim Watts

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
I'n my view, we are replacing a known good method (60/40) with one that
already suggests it has issues - the fact that a number of industries
are exempted from the lead-free solder ban suggests the suspicions to
be well founded.

There's no suggest about it. Far too many tales around of problems for it
to be an urban myth. And I proved it to myself early on.

I do quite a bit of soldering. Have a twin handset low voltage
temperature controlled solder station with an additional vacuum de-solder
handset, and a hot air re-flow/repair station.

--
*A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mar 1, 11:19*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* *Man at B&Q wrote:

On Feb 28, 5:07 pm, Skipweasel
wrote:
In article 54671980-4a8e-4aca-9f9a-36bfba9ec2f6
@a11g2000pri.googlegroups.com, says...

So why can't you solder with lead free solder?

You can - it just ain't so easy
It's not as difficult as some seem to think.

I take it you don't do any normal hand soldering? If you did, you'd know
why lead free is simply a waste of time.

That's all I do, exclusively lead free solder, 50W temperature
controled iron with plated bits and the right technique. Anyine who
says it's difficult simply hasn't tried properly.

Anything alse is sub-contract.

MBQ

On Mar 1, 11:17*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* *Man at B&Q wrote:

Solder faults round a LOPT etc are usually due to vibration.
I'm pretty sure this was infant mortality due to poor soldering. Once
fixed, it lasted for years. I did have to replace the nicad that held
up the tuning memory soom good while later.

I've fixed many an Acorn monitor (Philips) where re-soldering the LOPT got
it going again. And if it were just poor soldering, why always in the same
place?

The area of the chassis forms a heat sink that prevents a good joint
being formed.

Exactly the same problem can occur with modern reflow soldering if you
don't ensure the temperature profile is correct across the whole
board.

MBQ

On Feb 27, 9:58*pm, geoff wrote:
In message , Tim Watts
writes







geoff ) wibbled on Sunday 27 February 2011 19:44:

In message , Tim Watts
writes
geoff ) wibbled on Sunday 27 February 2011 11:06:

In message , Donwill
writes
Can you still buy leaded cored solder wire for electronic use? I've
just used up my old reel and I cannot get on with this lead free crap.
I've heard it's been banned in Europe but would it be available from
elsewhere. After all were supposed to be global now aren't we?
Don

cpc still sell it

Yep - still perfectly legal for non-sale use (ie a company can make
widgets for itself but cannot sell them) - and also (for sale) - exempted
products, which include, but are not limited to, automotive electronics.

So, rest assured, it is not going away...

It'll just get extortionately expensive

Fortunately it's not hard to buy a lifetime's supply

For you maybe - we get through about 25 x 500g reels / year

Yow! So all you need is 1000 reels and you're sorted. (Only half a
ton...)

On Mar 1, 11:29*am, Tim Watts wrote:
Man at B&Q ) wibbled on Tuesday 01 March 2011 10:47:

It needs the correct technique and tools. Just like any soldering
job.

MBQ

That's all very well, but what about the long term problems?

http://www.tracelabs.com/capability....pability_id=18

Tin whiskers are nothing new and certainly not exclusive to lead free
processes, e.g. http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/photos/pom/2003dec.htm

For the kind of soldering the OP was asking about, it's just not an
issue.

MBQ

On Mar 1, 11:48*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
* *Tim Watts wrote:

I'n my view, we are replacing a known good method (60/40) with one that
already suggests it has issues - the fact that a number of industries
are exempted from the lead-free solder ban suggests the suspicions to
be well founded.

There's no suggest about it. Far too many tales around of problems for it
to be an urban myth.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread claim it to be an urban myth.

I haven't seen anyone iin this thread claim there are no issues.

What issues do exist are easily overcome for anyone doing a bit of
soldering at home.

MBQ

In article
,
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Mar 1, 11:48 am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:

I'n my view, we are replacing a known good method (60/40) with one
that already suggests it has issues - the fact that a number of
industries are exempted from the lead-free solder ban suggests the
suspicions to be well founded.

There's no suggest about it. Far too many tales around of problems for
it to be an urban myth.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread claim it to be an urban myth.

I haven't seen anyone iin this thread claim there are no issues.

What issues do exist are easily overcome for anyone doing a bit of
soldering at home.

Sounds even more like that 'bit of soldering at home' doesn't much matter.
The fact is - as you've said - that all else being equal you require more
skill to use lead free. And since many have difficulty in soldering
properly anyway, why would anyone bother with a product which is inferior
in every way, as well as more tricky to use?

It simply makes no sense at all.

--
*OK, who stopped payment on my reality check?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
says...
So why can't you solder with lead free solder?

You can - it just ain't so easy

It's not as difficult as some seem to think.

I take it you don't do any normal hand soldering? If you did, you'd know
why lead free is simply a waste of time.


I do plumbing and wiring soldering, freehand with both leaded and
unleaded solder. Leaded is easier, but not by much.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

On Mar 1, 8:04*pm, Skipweasel wrote:
In article ,
says...

So why can't you solder with lead free solder?

You can - it just ain't so easy

It's not as difficult as some seem to think.

I take it you don't do any normal hand soldering? If you did, you'd know
why lead free is simply a waste of time.

I do plumbing and wiring soldering, freehand with both leaded and
unleaded solder. Leaded is easier, but not by *much.


Shhh! That's heresy around here :-)

In message
,
Owain writes
On Mar 1, 1:21*pm, Martin Bonner wrote:
For you maybe - we get through about 25 x 500g reels / year
Yow! *So all you need is 1000 reels and you're sorted. *(Only half a
ton...)

Don't put any fluoro tubes in the same order as that lot if you're
buying from CPC ...

Just don't even go there ...

I can't remember what it was a couple of years ago that turned the 4 CFL
bulbs in the same box to shards of broken glass, but yes - BTDT


--
geoff

On Sun, 27 Feb 2011 09:16:32 +0000, Donwill
wrote:

Can you still buy leaded cored solder wire for electronic use? I've just
used up my old reel and I cannot get on with this lead free crap. I've
heard it's been banned in Europe but would it be available from
elsewhere. After all were supposed to be global now aren't we?
Don

http://www.telecomsupplyline.ltd.uk/

Item 1133.

--
Frank Erskine

The Natural Philosopher writes:

The appalingly stupid business off banning it in solder, whilst leaving
millions of tonnes in batteries, and on church rooves, is just an
example of more pressure group knee jerk ******** we have come to expect
from weak minded ineffectual left wing knee jerk governments in Europe.

I suspect they're not in the least ineffectual. Probably all bought
stock in solder manufacturers and in silver and copper mines as soon as
they realised what was happening.


--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
@ O n e t e l
. c o m

"Man at B&Q" writes:

What issues do exist are easily overcome for anyone doing a bit of
soldering at home.

I tried to use one of those double-jawed 22mm pipe soldering irons to
fix a leaking pipe the plumber had dutifully soldered with lead-free.

The iron didn't get hot enough to melt the lead-free solder, and I had
to use a blowtorch with a steak pie tin lid behind the pipe to deflect
the flame from the wooden cistern support.

That worked.
And I used leaded solder as insurance against future issues of the same
sort.


--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
@ O n e t e l
. c o m