Moving home shortly and thinking about building a simple kitchen to
replace cheap and nasty fitted units. I have modest skills but given
care and patience I think I can give it a go. I want to use real
actual wood, not chipboard units. I would want to incorporate a gas
hob and a separate oven, a butler-style sink and some cupboards, with
space beneath worktops for a fridge and a dishwasher. Wall cupboards
and some draws would be nice. Needless to say, I won't be attempting
gas and electric work, and I'll probably chicken out of the plumbing
too!

What I'm after first is any ideas on good books to read or good
websites to visit which will give me an overview of the skills and the
tools I'll need. I've got lots of design ideas but I do want to make
sure that I'm not biting off too much. Thanks very much for any ideas.

On 20/02/2011 17:25, Andrew wrote:
Moving home shortly and thinking about building a simple kitchen to
replace cheap and nasty fitted units. I have modest skills but given
care and patience I think I can give it a go. I want to use real
actual wood, not chipboard units.

Real actual wood warps & twists - thats why chipboard is used.


I would want to incorporate a gas
hob and a separate oven, a butler-style sink and some cupboards, with
space beneath worktops for a fridge and a dishwasher. Wall cupboards
and some draws would be nice. Needless to say, I won't be attempting
gas and electric work, and I'll probably chicken out of the plumbing
too!

Building kitchen units isn't as simple as you might think. Unless you
are doing it as a hobby project its never going to be economic.


What I'm after first is any ideas on good books to read or good
websites to visit which will give me an overview of the skills and the
tools I'll need. I've got lots of design ideas but I do want to make
sure that I'm not biting off too much. Thanks very much for any ideas.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Sun, 20 Feb 2011 09:25:14 -0800 (PST)
Andrew wrote:

Moving home shortly and thinking about building a simple kitchen to
replace cheap and nasty fitted units. I have modest skills but given
care and patience I think I can give it a go. I want to use real
actual wood, not chipboard units. I would want to incorporate a gas
hob and a separate oven, a butler-style sink and some cupboards, with
space beneath worktops for a fridge and a dishwasher. Wall cupboards
and some draws would be nice. Needless to say, I won't be attempting
gas and electric work, and I'll probably chicken out of the plumbing
too!

What I'm after first is any ideas on good books to read or good
websites to visit which will give me an overview of the skills and the
tools I'll need. I've got lots of design ideas but I do want to make
sure that I'm not biting off too much. Thanks very much for any ideas.

Big question, some will say don't even attempt it! I did, and I'm
(she's) very happy with the result. By making your own you can make the
cabinets fit the space, rather than leaving all sorts of gaps. I made
some 453mm wide units, for instance.

Real Wood - Unless you really know how to design with it, it's very
likely to warp. I recommend plywood for the carcases, 18mm WBP is what
I used, but it can be nasty until it's finished - splinters very easily,
but it's not expensive (Baltic Birch ply, on the other hand, is
expensive, but a dream to work with - I use it for drawers).

Doors can be built from real wood and they will be expensive, even if
you do make your own. I made mine from 18mm MDF and them painted them.
In any case you need to have a 1/2" router, with a table, and the skill
to use a door-making set of cutters - they are not cheap, but can make
lots of doors - I have over 40 in my kitchen.

Drawers are fun, especially since Mr Blum makes such exceedingly nice
slides. The trick is to make them strong and square.

Books are hard to recommend, new ones get written so often, I learnt
how to do it watching Norm Abram's New Yankee Workshop on what has now
become Discovery Shed (it was called Real Time or something back
then). You used to be able to buy the DVDs from somewhere. I think
I'd recommend getting videos as well as books, it saves a lot of
experimentation, and trips to A&E.

One book I do like is Jim Tolpin "Building Traditional Kitchen
Cabinets", it's Merican, but you can probably get it here. Visiting a
good woodwork show, like Axminster's one is also a good investment.

Finally, the last point: workshop. You need a lot of space
to make a lot of cabinets, at least a garage, ideally a double garage,
plus somewhere to put them until you get to rip-out and rebuild day.

It's a challenge, but it is do-able.

But if I had my time again, I'd go to Ikea with a truck.

R.

On Feb 20, 5:25*pm, Andrew wrote:
Moving home shortly and thinking about building a simple kitchen to
replace cheap and nasty fitted units. I have modest skills but given
care and patience I think I can give it a go. I want to use real
actual wood, not chipboard units.

There are two main ways to build kitchen units: Euro style (cabinets
with doors on) and US style (face frame). Personally I prefer to make
face frame construction.

Euro cabinets are simple boxes of sheet materials (plywood, melamine
chipboard) held together with clever connectors. Making this stuff is
quite easy, but it needs big sheets of pre-faced materials and a panel
saw, otherwise it's just easier to buy them in ready made. The doors
are decorative to varying extent and can be made by either flat
sheets, framed panels of sheet goods or framed panels or solid
timber.

With a little effort, it's possible to cut down (or even stretch) pre-
existing boxes to give a better fit than the typical battery-farmed
kitchen.

US face-frame has a front panel made of solid timber and joined
construction, then doors hung from this and shelves and partitions
added behind. It's more work, especially compared to the incredibly
cheap production costs of Euro-style in a decent factory, but in some
ways it's a better fit to typical home joinery skills. There are two
good books on US style kitchen cabinetry: Jere Cary's older 'Building
Your Own Kitchen Cabinets'
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0918804159/codesmiths and
Jim Tolpin's more recent 'Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets'
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1561587974/codesmiths

What I think you need for either method is a decent cabinet saw, with
a large table (or slide rails), and a couple of home-made crosscut
boxes: a big one for panels and a narrow one for framing (Ian Kirby's
tablesaw book is goood). If you can't make lots of accurately square
panels quickly, then you'd be better buying.

You also need a good source of both timber and sheetgoods, with good
range, quality and pricing. Sourcing is getting to be harder than
building these days! Certainly don't just go down to B&Q. Spruce
plywood is a good cut-price sheet material and much undervalued, so
long as you can get a good grade. Cheaper than birch ply and often as
good.

One of the main aspects of cabinet design is the worktop itself, so
don't compromise here.

Concrete (of all things) is an interesting choice for countertops. Fu-
Tung Cheng has a number of good books, including 'Concrete
Countertops'
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1561584843/codesmiths (much
better than Ralston's book).

Andy Dingley ) wibbled on Sunday 20 February 2011
20:51:


US face-frame has a front panel made of solid timber and joined
construction, then doors hung from this and shelves and partitions
added behind. It's more work, especially compared to the incredibly
cheap production costs of Euro-style in a decent factory, but in some
ways it's a better fit to typical home joinery skills. There are two
good books on US style kitchen cabinetry: Jere Cary's older 'Building
Your Own Kitchen Cabinets'
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0918804159/codesmiths and
Jim Tolpin's more recent 'Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets'
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1561587974/codesmiths


Interesting. I've made face frame undersink cupboards for bathrooms before.

How do they finish the visible parts of the frame? Painted or veneered?

I presume based on my limited studwork experiences, with today's modern
screws and a decent chop saw (accurate 90 degree cut), you could pretty much
do the entire frame butt jointed and screwed through into the end grain -
would that be a reasonable approach?

Of course, no reason one couldn't buy stock doors and designed the frame to
accept standard dimensions.

Which would leave the fiddliest part of the job being the shelving.

--
Tim Watts

"TheOldFellow" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Feb 2011 09:25:14 -0800 (PST)
Andrew wrote:


It's a challenge, but it is do-able.

But if I had my time again, I'd go to Ikea with a truck.

I know that this is a d-i-y group but is paying a man to deliver really off
the agenda?

tim

On Feb 20, 10:05 pm, Tim Watts wrote:

How do they finish the visible parts of the frame? Painted or veneered?

I've never heard of veneered. Usually varnished or painted, depending.

I presume based on my limited studwork experiences, with today's modern
screws and a decent chop saw (accurate 90 degree cut), you could pretty much
do the entire frame butt jointed and screwed through into the end grain -

It's not how I'd do it. The Americans do it with Kreg screws -
shallow angled screws from the inside corners, drilled with a jig and
a magic counterboring drill. It's very quick, but you do need jigs,
both to hold the pieces together and to clamp the drilling jig in
place.

I wouldn't do it by drilling from the outside. It's awkward to jig and
clamp this up in the right place and still have space to drill from
the outside.

Otherwise the various dowel / inserted tenon approaches work well.
Even biscuits if the frame is wide enough.

Personally I'm ususually making stuff in the Craftsman / Stickley
style, so I'm cutting real mortice and tenons, often visibly pegged
through the front face.

Andy Dingley ) wibbled on Monday 21 February 2011
00:18:

On Feb 20, 10:05 pm, Tim Watts wrote:

How do they finish the visible parts of the frame? Painted or veneered?

I've never heard of veneered. Usually varnished or painted, depending.

I presume based on my limited studwork experiences, with today's modern
screws and a decent chop saw (accurate 90 degree cut), you could pretty
much do the entire frame butt jointed and screwed through into the end
grain -

It's not how I'd do it. The Americans do it with Kreg screws -
shallow angled screws from the inside corners, drilled with a jig and
a magic counterboring drill. It's very quick, but you do need jigs,
both to hold the pieces together and to clamp the drilling jig in
place.

I wouldn't do it by drilling from the outside. It's awkward to jig and
clamp this up in the right place and still have space to drill from
the outside.


Googles... Ah, Kreg - with big flat heads.

I've come across those jigs somewhere. It looks an attractive method.



--
Tim Watts

On 21/02/2011 00:40, Tim Watts wrote:
Andy Dingley ) wibbled on Monday 21 February 2011
00:18:

On Feb 20, 10:05 pm, Tim wrote:

How do they finish the visible parts of the frame? Painted or veneered?

I've never heard of veneered. Usually varnished or painted, depending.

I presume based on my limited studwork experiences, with today's modern
screws and a decent chop saw (accurate 90 degree cut), you could pretty
much do the entire frame butt jointed and screwed through into the end
grain -

It's not how I'd do it. The Americans do it with Kreg screws -
shallow angled screws from the inside corners, drilled with a jig and
a magic counterboring drill. It's very quick, but you do need jigs,
both to hold the pieces together and to clamp the drilling jig in
place.

I wouldn't do it by drilling from the outside. It's awkward to jig and
clamp this up in the right place and still have space to drill from
the outside.


Googles... Ah, Kreg - with big flat heads.

I've come across those jigs somewhere. It looks an attractive method.

I've got one similar to this
http://www.axminster.co.uk/kreg-kreg-k4-jig-prod789512/ although mine
is machined ally not plastic - looks like they have 'improved' it.

Works a treat. I use it mainly for drilling spindles for deck
balustrades, but I have also used it for furniture frames. You don't
need the square drive screws TBH, I ran out & used Turbo Golds.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Feb 20, 5:25*pm, Andrew wrote:
Moving home shortly and thinking about building a simple kitchen to
replace cheap and nasty fitted units. I have modest skills but given
care and patience I think I can give it a go. I want to use real
actual wood, not chipboard units. I would want to incorporate a gas
hob and a separate oven, a butler-style sink and some cupboards, with
space beneath worktops for a fridge and a dishwasher. Wall cupboards
and some draws would be nice. Needless to say, I won't be attempting
gas and electric work, and I'll probably chicken out of the plumbing
too!

What I'm after first is any ideas on good books to read or good
websites to visit which will give me an overview of the skills and the
tools I'll need. I've got lots of design ideas but I do want to make
sure that I'm not biting off too much. Thanks very much for any ideas.

What's your reason to build your own?

You want to build something that can't be bought?
To improve your joinery skills?
To save money?

Having recently looked round ikea, the quality of their units has
really come on - on the newer ranges. Lift out metal drawers (easy
clean), and generally more substantial fittings.

As others have said, you can do a lot by customising off-the-shelf
units.

If you do want to go the no-chipboard/mdf approach - birch ply is
lovely, but you do need the facilities to handle full sheets
(2.44*1.22m), and the means to cut them very accurately. I'd probably
think about carcassing in joinery-grade pine, and facing in a good
quality ply.

Perhaps buy one sheet of ply to prototype with (and assume this will
be your throw-away learning experience) - and get a feel for what
you're biting off?

On Feb 20, 5:25*pm, Andrew wrote:
Moving home shortly and thinking about building a simple kitchen to
replace cheap and nasty fitted units. I have modest skills but given
care and patience I think I can give it a go. I want to use real
actual wood, not chipboard units. I would want to incorporate a gas
hob and a separate oven, a butler-style sink and some cupboards, with
space beneath worktops for a fridge and a dishwasher. Wall cupboards
and some draws would be nice. Needless to say, I won't be attempting
gas and electric work, and I'll probably chicken out of the plumbing
too!

What I'm after first is any ideas on good books to read or good
websites to visit which will give me an overview of the skills and the
tools I'll need. I've got lots of design ideas but I do want to make
sure that I'm not biting off too much. Thanks very much for any ideas.

With my ex-wife we had a couple of kitchens built by carpenters rather
than using the usual units. I'm fairly sure she got the ideas from
Terence Conran's "The Kitchen Book".

What's your reason to build your own?

You want to build something that can't be bought?
To improve your joinery skills?
To save money?

Thanks very much for all the responses. This is an interesting
question: reasons for DIM (a highly appropriate acronym for Doing It
Myself!) are that the kitchen is very small and therefore manageable;
the size means that standard units won't fit well or usefully, and I
fancy the challenge. I don't expect to save money, necessarily, but I
would hope to end up with something I like using and looking at, and
something that will be reasonably robust. The approach I had envisaged
was face frame with doors etc. hung from the frame (US approach as I
now discover). Planning it in my head, I was thinking of (say) a 50 x
50 framework with doors, draws, space for appliances and the rest
attached to that frame. I was thinking of mini "ledge and braced"
doors which is the approach we took in our current kitchen (largely
unfitted), with linings and shelves made from sheet material of some
sort.

A table saw is something I don't have, but a reasonably sized workshop
is less of a problem (although the roof needs sorting before I can
make a kitchen in it!) Anyway, I shall re-read the responses and no
doubt come back to the group with more questions. Thanks again.

In article
,
Andrew wrote:
Moving home shortly and thinking about building a simple kitchen to
replace cheap and nasty fitted units. I have modest skills but given
care and patience I think I can give it a go. I want to use real
actual wood, not chipboard units.

It will cost you more in materials alone than buying a ready made one.
Better to use your skills to install a ready made one well.

--
*One nice thing about egotists: they don't talk about other people.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Feb 21, 12:40*am, Tim Watts wrote:

Googles... Ah, Kreg - with big flat heads.

I've come across those jigs somewhere. It looks an attractive method.

You need the jig and the drill bit, but not the nagic screws.

If you're using the cheapie non-Kreg ally block jig from Axminster,
you also need to arrange some extra jiggery to hold it all square and
clamp it. Doesn't need much, just a plywood lash-up, but it does need
something.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Andrew wrote:
Moving home shortly and thinking about building a simple kitchen to
replace cheap and nasty fitted units. I have modest skills but given
care and patience I think I can give it a go. I want to use real
actual wood, not chipboard units.

It will cost you more in materials alone than buying a ready made one.
Better to use your skills to install a ready made one well.

--
*One nice thing about egotists: they don't talk about other people.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Ok maybe the standard (bought) sizes are an issue but I have never had a
kitchen no matter how cheap fall apart.
My inclination would be to use the existing frames and maybe manufacture new
doors this would give a complete new look to the kitchen.
But as you say, you want a better fit of units.

On Feb 20, 5:25*pm, Andrew wrote:
Moving home shortly and thinking about building a simple kitchen to
replace cheap and nasty fitted units. I have modest skills but given
care and patience I think I can give it a go. I want to use real
actual wood, not chipboard units. I would want to incorporate a gas
hob and a separate oven, a butler-style sink and some cupboards, with
space beneath worktops for a fridge and a dishwasher. Wall cupboards
and some draws would be nice.

I have done a variety of kitchen units over the years. If they have
something the right size, I would use Ikea carcases, and even the
doors are pretty good.

Granite worktops are lovely and make the everything look luxurious.

I have made units out of ply. You can get a pretty good finish with a
rough cut from a hand-held circular saw (or even jig saw ... and my
dad would have used a hand panel saw) + a router and a straight edge.
I have a 1/4" router, which does the job eventually (although 1/2"
would be better),

The most recent kitchen uses Ikea doors, but I have previously made
doors from solid wood frames + veneered ply. The problem with that
was a) finding the solid oak; b) SWMBO demanded veneer on /both/ sides
of the ply. Finding veneer to apply to the front face of the
purchased veneered ply was a PITA.

The current wall cupboards are made from melamine faced planks + Ikea
glass fronted doors (SWMBO wanted the cupboards only 150mm deep, and
Ikea didn't make them that thin.)

On 20/02/2011 17:25, Andrew wrote:
Moving home shortly and thinking about building a simple kitchen to
replace cheap and nasty fitted units. I have modest skills but given
care and patience I think I can give it a go. I want to use real
actual wood, not chipboard units. I would want to incorporate a gas
hob and a separate oven, a butler-style sink and some cupboards, with
space beneath worktops for a fridge and a dishwasher. Wall cupboards
and some draws would be nice. Needless to say, I won't be attempting
gas and electric work, and I'll probably chicken out of the plumbing
too!

The plumbing side is easy if you learn what to buy for what you use the
plastic waste pipe for.

When I did our kitchen about 15 years ago, the first priority, after
ripping out the old was to make sure we had a usable kitchen sink,
albeit, a temporary one. You can feed yourself from a microwave on the
dining table, but you can't do without a kitchen sink.

Dave

In article ,
Dave wrote:
When I did our kitchen about 15 years ago, the first priority, after
ripping out the old was to make sure we had a usable kitchen sink,
albeit, a temporary one. You can feed yourself from a microwave on the
dining table, but you can't do without a kitchen sink.

Use the bathroom rather than rushing things?

--
*What am I? Flypaper for freaks!?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 21/02/2011 17:34, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
When I did our kitchen about 15 years ago, the first priority, after
ripping out the old was to make sure we had a usable kitchen sink,
albeit, a temporary one. You can feed yourself from a microwave on the
dining table, but you can't do without a kitchen sink.

Use the bathroom rather than rushing things?

At a push, I suppose he could, but you would have to fill a washing up
bowl from the bath, assuming the OP has one and not just a shower.

Dave

A table saw is something I don't have, but a reasonably sized workshop
is less of a problem (although the roof needs sorting before I can
make a kitchen in it!) Anyway, I shall re-read the responses and no
doubt come back to the group with more questions. Thanks again.

For working with sheet, all you need is a sawboard, a couple of trigger
clamps, a hand held circular saw, and a couple of workmates or some
trestles. Google for sawboard and make yourself one. Actually, make yourself
two: one four foot, one eight foot. You will NEVER regret it. I needed to
DIY part of my kitchen to take a non-standard sink and still have room for
appliances: couldn't do it with off the shelf carcases. The sink sits on one
box made from 18 mm birch ply (on standard plastic adjustable feet) and the
three odd spaces have slim waste bins on castors, also made out of ply. Do
it right and you don't need to cut and then plane to size, with a sawboard
you get better than 1 mm accuracy. OK, you might do as well with a full
sized pro table saw and all the bits, but most of us don't have that sort of
money or space!

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Andrew wrote:
Moving home shortly and thinking about building a simple kitchen to
replace cheap and nasty fitted units. I have modest skills but given
care and patience I think I can give it a go. I want to use real
actual wood, not chipboard units.

It will cost you more in materials alone than buying a ready made one.
Better to use your skills to install a ready made one well.

Now maybe and maybe not.

Often it takes MORE time to adapt something that doesnt quite fit, than
it does to start from scrathh.


I have severl 'units' in my kitchen that are in fact hand built, using h
pre-made doors to match the flatpack ones of the erst of the kitchen.,
and whose carcase is non existent..either side of the Aga there was an
alcove, brick faced. I screwed an oak wood frame to the alcove, built a
base and a plinth out of oak faced MDF, and scrap wood where it didnt
show., and attached the hinges to the frame. The tops are granite.
Didn't even bother to attach it. Weight and accurate fit means they
never shift.

In other arts of the house there are MDF carcassed cuboards using either
pre bought doors, or oak T&G, and stock 'kitchen unit' hinges. I had to
buy a recessing tool for those, that's all.

A Glued screwed and braced carcase is a very very quick thing to make -
quicker than those fiddly quick-lok things. And MDF is tougher than
cheap chip. The only problem is facing the edges that show with
something decent.

Andrew writes:

A table saw is something I don't have, but a reasonably sized workshop
is less of a problem

Andy Dingley suggested a panel saw for cutting large sheet material,
which you'll inevitably want to do for either US or Euro style cabinets.
He's right if you want to do it economically in production quantities.
But with your goals, cutting them ~2mm oversize with a circular saw and
sawboard and shaving ~1mm off each edge with a router and straight edge
as suggested by Martin Bonner works well. You will need to be able to
mark up the sheets with the required angles to a high degree of
accuracy, though.

My next kitchen (also still in my head until the circular 'tuit fairy
arrives) will be a hybrid of the US and Euro styles, with sheet material
jointed to real wood (of the same thickness) on the front face, with
real wood door stops all around covering the joint.

--
Mark

On 22/02/2011 20:39, Mark Williams wrote:
writes:

A table saw is something I don't have, but a reasonably sized workshop
is less of a problem

Andy Dingley suggested a panel saw for cutting large sheet material,
which you'll inevitably want to do for either US or Euro style cabinets.
He's right if you want to do it economically in production quantities.
But with your goals, cutting them ~2mm oversize with a circular saw and
sawboard and shaving ~1mm off each edge with a router and straight edge
as suggested by Martin Bonner works well. You will need to be able to
mark up the sheets with the required angles to a high degree of
accuracy, though.

If you enjoy that sort of thing. Even though I have a table saw with
outriggers, and a variety of sawboards for the circular saw, I get mine
cut to size by the timber merchant.

My next kitchen (also still in my head until the circular 'tuit fairy
arrives) will be a hybrid of the US and Euro styles, with sheet material
jointed to real wood (of the same thickness) on the front face, with
real wood door stops all around covering the joint.