My flat does not have any mains earth supplied to my meter from
outside, by the power/network supplier. Flat is a traditional 1884
Scottish stone-built tenement building, 2nd floor.

Two questions:
1) Is the supplier obliged to provide one? If not, how much would it
reasonable cost to pay them to install?
2) Do I need one? My I have earth bonding to the gas and water pipes
which I guess can work as an earth. But is that safe? Does that mean
the pipes might be conducting electrical discharge and be dangerous
for anyone touching the pipes of the whole

google wrote:

My flat does not have any mains earth supplied to my meter from
outside, by the power/network supplier. Flat is a traditional 1884
Scottish stone-built tenement building, 2nd floor.

Two questions:
1) Is the supplier obliged to provide one? If not, how much would it
reasonable cost to pay them to install?
2) Do I need one? My I have earth bonding to the gas and water pipes
which I guess can work as an earth. But is that safe? Does that mean
the pipes might be conducting electrical discharge and be dangerous
for anyone touching the pipes of the whole

A picture of the incoming supply and meter would help a lot.
It could be a TN-S supply, or maybe needs to be TT.
A pic would show this.

Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

A.Lee wrote:

A picture of the incoming supply and meter would help a lot.
It could be a TN-S supply,

That should be TN-C-S, where an earth is not supplied by the electric
company, the earth is connected to the neutral (dont do this yourself).

Alan.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

A.Lee wrote:
A.Lee wrote:

A picture of the incoming supply and meter would help a lot.
It could be a TN-S supply,

That should be TN-C-S, where an earth is not supplied by the electric
company, the earth is connected to the neutral (dont do this
yourself).

Alan.

The company does supply the earth for both TN-C-S and TN-S.

They do not provide an earth for a TT supply

--
Adam

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 13:15:27 -0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

That should be TN-C-S, where an earth is not supplied by the
electric
company, the earth is connected to the neutral (dont do this
yourself).

The company does supply the earth for both TN-C-S and TN-S.

But not necessarily as a separate incoming conductor. The consumer PE
can be connected to the incoming neutral at the consumer end.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 13:15:27 -0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

That should be TN-C-S, where an earth is not supplied by the
electric company, the earth is connected to the neutral (dont do
this yourself).

The company does supply the earth for both TN-C-S and TN-S.

But not necessarily as a separate incoming conductor. The consumer PE
can be connected to the incoming neutral at the consumer end.

Thats TN-C-S for you:-)

It will not have it any other way.

--
Adam

A.Lee wrote:
google wrote:

My flat does not have any mains earth supplied to my meter from
outside, by the power/network supplier. Flat is a traditional 1884
Scottish stone-built tenement building, 2nd floor.

Two questions:
1) Is the supplier obliged to provide one? If not, how much would it
reasonable cost to pay them to install?

They may not be able to supply an earth and therefore not obliged to supply
one. If they can supply an earth then it is usually free (IMHO in England)

2) Do I need one? My I have earth bonding to the gas and water pipes
which I guess can work as an earth. But is that safe? Does that mean
the pipes might be conducting electrical discharge and be dangerous
for anyone touching the pipes of the whole

Yes you do need a proper earth. You may have to supply your own and make
sure your electrics are up to standards required for a TT supply
Have a read of
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=TT_Earthing
and
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Earthing_Types

A picture of the incoming supply and meter would help a lot.
It could be a TN-S supply, or maybe needs to be TT.
A pic would show this.

It may help.

--
Adam

In article ,
ARWadsworth wrote:
They may not be able to supply an earth and therefore not obliged to
supply one. If they can supply an earth then it is usually free (IMHO
in England)

Do you know which reg. to quote etc? The usual way round here (South
London, old house), is a clip to the outside of the riser. And they charge
a vast amount to fit one.

--
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
ARWadsworth wrote:
They may not be able to supply an earth and therefore not obliged to
supply one. If they can supply an earth then it is usually free (IMHO
in England)

Do you know which reg. to quote etc? The usual way round here (South
London, old house), is a clip to the outside of the riser. And they
charge a vast amount to fit one.

No reg I am afraid. There maybe something in the ESQCR.

When I have called to have the earth terminal supplied in the past I have
never been asked for money (I now usually just do my own earth connections).
Of course they refused when the supply was TT, but they were able to tell me
over the phone it was a TT supply.

--
Adam

On 29/12/2010 15:23, ARWadsworth wrote:

No reg I am afraid. There maybe something in the ESQCR.

It's the ESQCR, Regulation 24 (4):

"Unless he can reasonably conclude that it is inappropriate for reasons
of safety, a distributor shall, when providing a new connection at low
voltage, make available his supply neutral conductor or, if appropriate,
the protective conductor of his network for connection to the protective
conductor of the consumers installation."

[http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2665/made]

IOW all *new* supply connections shall be PME (or TN-S) unless that
would be unsafe. In practice this means almost all new permanent
premises supplies will be PME (the DNOs tend not to do TN-S any more).
They will refuse to provide an earth terminal for temporary builders'
supplies, supplies to caravans and boats (where PME is explicitly
illegal) and to some types of street furniture.

AFAIK DNOs are not under any obligation to provide TN earthing to
existing older supplies, although they will sometimes do so if you ask.

--
Andy

On Dec 29, 1:02*pm, (A.Lee) wrote:
google wrote:
My flat does not have any mains earth supplied to my meter from
outside, by the power/network supplier. Flat is a traditional 1884
Scottish stone-built tenement building, 2nd floor.

Two questions:
1) Is the supplier obliged to provide one? If not, how much would it
reasonable cost to pay them to install?
2) Do I need one? My I have earth bonding to the gas and water pipes
which I guess can work as an earth. But is that safe? Does that mean
the pipes might be conducting electrical discharge and be dangerous
for anyone touching the pipes of the whole

A picture of the incoming supply and meter would help a lot.
It could be a TN-S supply, or maybe needs to be TT.
A pic would show this.

Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

Pictures here...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?fb...16& aid=44231

google wrote:

Pictures here...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?fb...16& aid=44231

Only visible by those who have a facebook account ....

google wrote:

On Dec 29, 1:02 pm, (A.Lee) wrote:
google wrote:
My flat does not have any mains earth supplied to my meter f

A picture of the incoming supply and meter would help a lot.

Pictures here...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?fb...0000412930216&
aid=44231

Cannot see them as you need to be logged in to view them.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

google wrote:
Pictures here...http://www.facebook.com/album.php?fb...id=10000041293...

(Temporary copy he http://mdfs.net/temp/noearth.jpg )
Any chance of seeing the supply head - the bit on the other
side of that hole the Supply and Neutral come through?

JGH

jgharston wrote:
google wrote:
Pictures
here...http://www.facebook.com/album.php?fb...id=10000041293...

(Temporary copy he http://mdfs.net/temp/noearth.jpg )
Any chance of seeing the supply head - the bit on the other
side of that hole the Supply and Neutral come through?

JGH

That's the bit I want to see as well.
--
Adam

In article
,
google writes
On Dec 29, 1:02*pm, (A.Lee) wrote:
google wrote:
My flat does not have any mains earth supplied to my meter from
outside, by the power/network supplier. Flat is a traditional 1884
Scottish stone-built tenement building, 2nd floor.

Two questions:
1) Is the supplier obliged to provide one? If not, how much would it
reasonable cost to pay them to install?
2) Do I need one? My I have earth bonding to the gas and water pipes
which I guess can work as an earth. But is that safe? Does that mean
the pipes might be conducting electrical discharge and be dangerous
for anyone touching the pipes of the whole

A picture of the incoming supply and meter would help a lot.
It could be a TN-S supply, or maybe needs to be TT.
A pic would show this.

Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

Pictures here...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?fb...10000041293021
6&aid=44231

Try http://www.tinypic.com/ for posting the pics.

FWIW, this doesn't sound right. If your supply is of any age, I'd expect
it to be wired in singles (single cores) from a rectangular duct or
round conduit in the close. As you're 2 up there is no way that you
could provide an earth by any other means so I would expect them to
provide an earth if you tell them it is missing. Anyway, let us see the
pics and it should become clear. Try to see where the cables are coming
into your flat.
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

On Dec 29, 2:34*pm, fred wrote:
In article
,
google writes



On Dec 29, 1:02 pm, (A.Lee) wrote:
google wrote:
My flat does not have any mains earth supplied to my meter from
outside, by the power/network supplier. Flat is a traditional 1884
Scottish stone-built tenement building, 2nd floor.

Two questions:
1) Is the supplier obliged to provide one? If not, how much would it
reasonable cost to pay them to install?
2) Do I need one? My I have earth bonding to the gas and water pipes
which I guess can work as an earth. But is that safe? Does that mean
the pipes might be conducting electrical discharge and be dangerous
for anyone touching the pipes of the whole

A picture of the incoming supply and meter would help a lot.
It could be a TN-S supply, or maybe needs to be TT.
A pic would show this.

Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

Pictures here...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?fb...10000041293021
6&aid=44231

Tryhttp://www.tinypic.com/for posting the pics.

FWIW, this doesn't sound right. If your supply is of any age, I'd expect
it to be wired in singles (single cores) from a rectangular duct or
round conduit in the close. As you're 2 up there is no way that you
could provide an earth by any other means so I would expect them to
provide an earth if you tell them it is missing. Anyway, let us see the
pics and it should become clear. Try to see where the cables are coming
into your flat.
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

I'm now a fan of www.tinypic.com

(1) pic of feed to meter inside my property
http://tinypic.com/r/ixuom0/7

(2) pic of junction box in shared close/stairway:
http://tinypic.com/r/nmn3nt/7

Having someone here to talk sense is great, thanks for your help so
far guys. Just looking in the shared junction box I can see how my
nieghbour has connected an earth wire to the box, and that there is
not much work involved in connecting an earth cable from my flat to
the box (3 meters). But I think legally I must use the supply company
to make the connection, is that right?

I've called them and waiting on a call back.

On Dec 29, 3:10*pm, google wrote:
On Dec 29, 2:34*pm, fred wrote:



In article
,
google writes

On Dec 29, 1:02 pm, (A.Lee) wrote:
google wrote:
My flat does not have any mains earth supplied to my meter from
outside, by the power/network supplier. Flat is a traditional 1884
Scottish stone-built tenement building, 2nd floor.

Two questions:
1) Is the supplier obliged to provide one? If not, how much would it
reasonable cost to pay them to install?
2) Do I need one? My I have earth bonding to the gas and water pipes
which I guess can work as an earth. But is that safe? Does that mean
the pipes might be conducting electrical discharge and be dangerous
for anyone touching the pipes of the whole

A picture of the incoming supply and meter would help a lot.
It could be a TN-S supply, or maybe needs to be TT.
A pic would show this.

Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

Pictures here...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?fb...10000041293021
6&aid=44231

Tryhttp://www.tinypic.com/forposting the pics.

FWIW, this doesn't sound right. If your supply is of any age, I'd expect
it to be wired in singles (single cores) from a rectangular duct or
round conduit in the close. As you're 2 up there is no way that you
could provide an earth by any other means so I would expect them to
provide an earth if you tell them it is missing. Anyway, let us see the
pics and it should become clear. Try to see where the cables are coming
into your flat.
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

I'm now a fan ofwww.tinypic.com

(1) pic of feed to meter inside my propertyhttp://tinypic.com/r/ixuom0/7

(2) pic of junction box in shared close/stairway:http://tinypic.com/r/nmn3nt/7

Having someone here to talk sense is great, thanks for your help so
far guys. Just looking in the shared junction box I can see how my
nieghbour has connected an earth wire to the box, and that there is
not much work involved in connecting an earth cable from my flat to
the box (3 meters). But I think legally I must use the supply company
to make the connection, is that right?

I've called them and waiting on a call back.

I should've added that, my flat is on the left of the box, so the red
+ black cables coming into the box on the left are mine, no green
earth cable. My neighbours red, black and shiny new earth cable are on
the right, It seems the earthing in only to the metal box, which i
guess is earthed through the conduit going downwards.

google wrote:
not much work involved in connecting an earth cable from my flat to
the box (3 meters).

Here is where spelling is very very important.
meter - the thing with spinning dials that measures how much leccy
you've used
metre - a unit of distance being approximately 39 inches.

Looking at the picture it looks like the supply supplies an earth,
there's a black, red and green coming in from the bottom; the red
going to a set of fuse heads, the black to a common block, and the
green to an earth tag, then all three continuing upwards; with
consumer read+blacks going off to the sides.

It looks like your neighbour has connected their earth to the
case, not to the earth tag, and is relying on the case providing
an electrically sound connection to the earth tag. Earths really
need to be made to a single connection and not rely on intervening
metalwork for their connection.

JGH

In article
,
google writes
On Dec 29, 2:34*pm, fred wrote:
In article

FWIW, this doesn't sound right. If your supply is of any age, I'd expect
it to be wired in singles (single cores) from a rectangular duct or
round conduit in the close. As you're 2 up there is no way that you
could provide an earth by any other means so I would expect them to
provide an earth if you tell them it is missing. Anyway, let us see the
pics and it should become clear. Try to see where the cables are coming
into your flat.

I'm now a fan of www.tinypic.com

(1) pic of feed to meter inside my property
http://tinypic.com/r/ixuom0/7

(2) pic of junction box in shared close/stairway:
http://tinypic.com/r/nmn3nt/7

Having someone here to talk sense is great, thanks for your help so
far guys. Just looking in the shared junction box I can see how my
nieghbour has connected an earth wire to the box, and that there is
not much work involved in connecting an earth cable from my flat to
the box (3 meters). But I think legally I must use the supply company
to make the connection, is that right?

I've called them and waiting on a call back.

As there are just 2 outgoing supplies there I am assuming that this box
is just serving your floor. Looks like incoming supply at the bottom,
through feed to upstairs, with neighbour's feed to the right and yours
to the left?

The neighbour's earth looks undersized btw, it should be the same size
as the solid green that's passing through the box.

It does look a bit scary and it makes me wonder where the earths on your
internal wiring are going to you.

Given the age of the fusebox I wouldn't be surprised if you find that
you have lead sheathed rubber insulated cable terminating without an
earth at the fusebox. This is bad as by now the rubber insulation will
be brittle and will not be possible to add an earth to it.

If it were mine I would switch off the fusebox and remove the cover to
investigate and see if there is any earthing but be aware that despite
the box being switched off this may expose bare live parts. If you have
any doubt as to your competency then do not do this. As you have access
to your fuse in the close then you could isolate your supply there too
but take care as the old fuse carrier may be brittle. Again, if you have
doubts then don't touch it.

If you do have old lead sheathed cable then think about re-wiring, you
are on borrowed time with it.

Btw, the 'direct link' option is more universally usable than the one
you provided but it did the job.
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

google wrote:
On Dec 29, 2:34 pm, fred wrote:
In article
,
google writes



On Dec 29, 1:02 pm, (A.Lee) wrote:
google wrote:
My flat does not have any mains earth supplied to my meter from
outside, by the power/network supplier. Flat is a traditional 1884
Scottish stone-built tenement building, 2nd floor.

Two questions:
1) Is the supplier obliged to provide one? If not, how much would
it reasonable cost to pay them to install?
2) Do I need one? My I have earth bonding to the gas and water
pipes which I guess can work as an earth. But is that safe? Does
that mean the pipes might be conducting electrical discharge and
be dangerous for anyone touching the pipes of the whole

A picture of the incoming supply and meter would help a lot.
It could be a TN-S supply, or maybe needs to be TT.
A pic would show this.

Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

Pictures here...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?fb...10000041293021
6&aid=44231

Tryhttp://www.tinypic.com/for posting the pics.

FWIW, this doesn't sound right. If your supply is of any age, I'd
expect it to be wired in singles (single cores) from a rectangular
duct or round conduit in the close. As you're 2 up there is no way
that you could provide an earth by any other means so I would expect
them to provide an earth if you tell them it is missing. Anyway, let
us see the pics and it should become clear. Try to see where the
cables are coming into your flat.
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

I'm now a fan of www.tinypic.com

(1) pic of feed to meter inside my property
http://tinypic.com/r/ixuom0/7

(2) pic of junction box in shared close/stairway:
http://tinypic.com/r/nmn3nt/7

Having someone here to talk sense is great, thanks for your help so
far guys. Just looking in the shared junction box I can see how my
nieghbour has connected an earth wire to the box, and that there is
not much work involved in connecting an earth cable from my flat to
the box (3 meters). But I think legally I must use the supply company
to make the connection, is that right?

I've called them and waiting on a call back.

Your supplier should be able to tell you what sort of supply you have (TT,
TN-S or TN-C-S)

If it is a TN supply then then the supplier has provided you with an earth
point that you can use.

--
Adam

On Dec 29, 3:10*pm, google wrote:
On Dec 29, 2:34*pm, fred wrote:



In article
,
google writes

On Dec 29, 1:02 pm, (A.Lee) wrote:
google wrote:
My flat does not have any mains earth supplied to my meter from
outside, by the power/network supplier. Flat is a traditional 1884
Scottish stone-built tenement building, 2nd floor.

Two questions:
1) Is the supplier obliged to provide one? If not, how much would it
reasonable cost to pay them to install?
2) Do I need one? My I have earth bonding to the gas and water pipes
which I guess can work as an earth. But is that safe? Does that mean
the pipes might be conducting electrical discharge and be dangerous
for anyone touching the pipes of the whole

A picture of the incoming supply and meter would help a lot.
It could be a TN-S supply, or maybe needs to be TT.
A pic would show this.

Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

Pictures here...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?fb...10000041293021
6&aid=44231

Tryhttp://www.tinypic.com/forposting the pics.

FWIW, this doesn't sound right. If your supply is of any age, I'd expect
it to be wired in singles (single cores) from a rectangular duct or
round conduit in the close. As you're 2 up there is no way that you
could provide an earth by any other means so I would expect them to
provide an earth if you tell them it is missing. Anyway, let us see the
pics and it should become clear. Try to see where the cables are coming
into your flat.
--
fred
FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ********

I'm now a fan ofwww.tinypic.com

(1) pic of feed to meter inside my propertyhttp://tinypic.com/r/ixuom0/7

(2) pic of junction box in shared close/stairway:http://tinypic.com/r/nmn3nt/7

Having someone here to talk sense is great, thanks for your help so
far guys. Just looking in the shared junction box I can see how my
nieghbour has connected an earth wire to the box, and that there is
not much work involved in connecting an earth cable from my flat to
the box (3 meters). But I think legally I must use the supply company
to make the connection, is that right?

I've called them and waiting on a call back.

No earth is risky, no earth and no RCD is dangerous.


NT

In article
,
google wrote:
1) Is the supplier obliged to provide one? If not, how much would it
reasonable cost to pay them to install?

I dunno about Scotland, but 'they' will charge for this in London. IIRC,
about 300 quid.

2) Do I need one? My I have earth bonding to the gas and water pipes
which I guess can work as an earth. But is that safe? Does that mean
the pipes might be conducting electrical discharge and be dangerous
for anyone touching the pipes of the whole

The snag comes if and when the external bits of these pipes are changed to
plastic. Assuming they are not already. But using them as an earth hasn't
complied with regs for a long time.

--
*Therapy is expensive, poppin' bubble wrap is cheap! You choose.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman wrote:
2) Do I need one? My I have earth bonding to the gas and water pipes
which I guess can work as an earth. But is that safe?
....
The snag comes if and when the external bits of these pipes are changed to
plastic. Assuming they are not already. But using them as an earth hasn't
complied with regs for a long time.

The intention of bonding supply pipes together is to ensure that the
consumer side of those pipes is bonded to your electrical earth, not
to use the incoming supply pipes _as_ your electrical earth.

JGH

"jgharston" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman wrote:
2) Do I need one? My I have earth bonding to the gas and water pipes
which I guess can work as an earth. But is that safe?
...
The snag comes if and when the external bits of these pipes are changed
to
plastic. Assuming they are not already. But using them as an earth hasn't
complied with regs for a long time.

The intention of bonding supply pipes together is to ensure that the
consumer side of those pipes is bonded to your electrical earth, not
to use the incoming supply pipes _as_ your electrical earth.

When a leccy man came to my house to quote for some work he noted that the
water supply was not "earthed" and added some extortionate charge to the
quote for doing it.

I said "did you not notice that the pipes in question are plastic" and he
sheepishly took it off again.

tim

tim.... wrote:
"jgharston" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman wrote:
2) Do I need one? My I have earth bonding to the gas and water
pipes which I guess can work as an earth. But is that safe?
...
The snag comes if and when the external bits of these pipes are
changed to
plastic. Assuming they are not already. But using them as an earth
hasn't complied with regs for a long time.

The intention of bonding supply pipes together is to ensure that the
consumer side of those pipes is bonded to your electrical earth, not
to use the incoming supply pipes _as_ your electrical earth.

When a leccy man came to my house to quote for some work he noted
that the water supply was not "earthed" and added some extortionate
charge to the quote for doing it.

I said "did you not notice that the pipes in question are plastic"
and he sheepishly took it off again.

tim

Try it from the other side of the fence. A Council rewire and I am
subcontracted to do the rewire.

The snag list appears and the only snag is "kitcken sink not bonded". I
explained that it is a plastic kitchen sink but it fell on deaf ears.

--
Adam

ARWadsworth wrote:
The snag list appears and the only snag is "kitcken sink not bonded". I
explained that it is a plastic kitchen sink but it fell on deaf ears.

"It's ok, I used Araldite"

JGH

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember google
saying something like:

My flat does not have any mains earth supplied to my meter from
outside, by the power/network supplier. Flat is a traditional 1884
Scottish stone-built tenement building, 2nd floor.

I'm afraid the usual option of banging in an earth spike is not open to
you, unless you have very understanding neighbours below.