I've always be interested in house design, and the way it relates to
usage etc.
I watched a craft program with Kirsty Allsop, which feature a 6
bedroom detached victorian house in willenhall near walsall,
Birmingham. A few things interested me about it.
The design was a long hall from front to back, and the stairwell was
off to the right of the hall between front and back rooms, with stairs
up to doorway height, then doubling back after a half landing. There
was a mini-hallway under the upper flight beyond the half-landing,
with a window at the end. You didn't see much of the house, but it
seemed to be 4 square rooms downstairs. The back room on the right did
not have an entrance from the main hall, but only from the mini-
hallway, so that it was tucked out of the way, and opposite an under-
stairs cupboard or possibly stairs down to a cellar. All other rooms
led off the hallway.
I wondered if this back room was originally a servants room or
scullery etc, and thus the entrance was tucked out of the way. The
house also had servants bells, but did not show where in the house
these were.
Anyone know if my reasoning for the back room design is likely ?
Simon.

"sm_jamieson" wrote in message
...
I've always be interested in house design, and the way it relates to
usage etc.
I watched a craft program with Kirsty Allsop, which feature a 6
bedroom detached victorian house in willenhall near walsall,
Birmingham. A few things interested me about it.
The design was a long hall from front to back, and the stairwell was
off to the right of the hall between front and back rooms, with
stairs
up to doorway height, then doubling back after a half landing. There
was a mini-hallway under the upper flight beyond the half-landing,
with a window at the end. You didn't see much of the house, but it
seemed to be 4 square rooms downstairs. The back room on the right
did
not have an entrance from the main hall, but only from the mini-
hallway, so that it was tucked out of the way, and opposite an
under-
stairs cupboard or possibly stairs down to a cellar. All other rooms
led off the hallway.
I wondered if this back room was originally a servants room or
scullery etc, and thus the entrance was tucked out of the way. The
house also had servants bells, but did not show where in the house
these were.
Anyone know if my reasoning for the back room design is likely ?
Simon.

Highly probable. My last house, a 7 bed detached Edwardian was much as
you describe. The tucked away access from the hall beside the stairs
led to a 'suite' of rooms - comprising a small kitchen (9 foot square)
that had had a 'copper' in one corner, a larger room (14 foot square)
with a fireplace that looked to have had a range cooker, a toilet, all
joined by a corridor leading to the back door (tradesmens entrance).
On the third floor was the servants bedroom, which was a decent size -
perhaps 14' x 12' with a superb view over London.

AWEM

On Nov 3, 10:50*pm, sm_jamieson wrote:
I've always be interested in house design, and the way it relates to
usage etc.
I watched a craft program with Kirsty Allsop, which feature a 6
bedroom detached victorian house in willenhall near walsall,
Birmingham. A few things interested me about it.
The design was a long hall from front to back, and the stairwell was
off to the right of the hall between front and back rooms, with stairs
up to doorway height, then doubling back after a half landing. There
was a mini-hallway under the upper flight beyond the half-landing,
with a window at the end. You didn't see much of the house, but it
seemed to be 4 square rooms downstairs. The back room on the right did
not have an entrance from the main hall, but only from the mini-
hallway, so that it was tucked out of the way, and opposite an under-
stairs cupboard or possibly stairs down to a cellar. All other rooms
led off the hallway.
I wondered if this back room was originally a servants room or
scullery etc, and thus the entrance was tucked out of the way. The
house also had servants bells, but did not show where in the house
these were.
Anyone know if my reasoning for the back room design is likely ?
Simon.

As late as pre ww2 many small households had servant/housekeepers
often living in. Seems strange to us these days. They disappeared as
all the household gadgets appeared.

On Nov 4, 9:52*am, harry wrote:


As late as pre ww2 many small households had servant/housekeepers
often living in. *Seems strange to us these days. *They disappeared as
all the household gadgets appeared.- Hide quoted text -

My street consists of mainly 4/5 bedroom houses with small front
gardens on one side, slightly smaller houses with no front garden on
the other side. The 1891 census (just after the street was built - a
few houses were still not occupied) shows that almost all houses had a
servant living in; one house with a slightly larger frontage than the
rest had both a general servant and a housekeeper. That one was
occupied by a solicitor...
Most of these have two main rooms on the groud floor, with sliding
doors between, and a corridor down one side leading to the back
extension, which would appear to have had the kitchen and scullery on
the ground floor; the main room at the rear had a back door leading
into the garden through a small conservatory, presumably so the family
could get into the garden without going through the servants quarters.
I assume the servant would have slept in the small room at the top of
the house with just a small roof light

On Nov 4, 8:27*am, "Andrew Mawson"
wrote:
"sm_jamieson" wrote in message

...



I've always be interested in house design, and the way it relates to
usage etc.
I watched a craft program with Kirsty Allsop, which feature a 6
bedroom detached victorian house in willenhall near walsall,
Birmingham. A few things interested me about it.
The design was a long hall from front to back, and the stairwell was
off to the right of the hall between front and back rooms, with
stairs
up to doorway height, then doubling back after a half landing. There
was a mini-hallway under the upper flight beyond the half-landing,
with a window at the end. You didn't see much of the house, but it
seemed to be 4 square rooms downstairs. The back room on the right
did
not have an entrance from the main hall, but only from the mini-
hallway, so that it was tucked out of the way, and opposite an
under-
stairs cupboard or possibly stairs down to a cellar. All other rooms
led off the hallway.
I wondered if this back room was originally a servants room or
scullery etc, and thus the entrance was tucked out of the way. The
house also had servants bells, but did not show where in the house
these were.
Anyone know if my reasoning for the back room design is likely ?
Simon.

Highly probable. My last house, a 7 bed detached Edwardian was much as
you describe. The tucked away access from the hall beside the stairs
led to a 'suite' of rooms - comprising a small kitchen (9 foot square)
that had had a 'copper' in one corner, a larger room (14 foot square)
with a fireplace that looked to have had a range cooker, a toilet, all
joined by a corridor leading to the back door (tradesmens entrance).
On the third floor was the servants bedroom, which was a decent size -
perhaps 14' x 12' *with a superb view over London.

AWEM

Well I'll hide my envy (sorry, aspiration ;-)
We had a family friend years ago who had a house like this, but it
also had a parallel staircase under the main staircase that went up to
the servants rooms, so they really could hide away. The servants room
was at a funny level, sort of intermediate between two floors !
I assume in your house, they would have had to descend from the attic
rooms to the servants suite in the mornings - before anyone else got
up.

If I was ever in a position to build a new house, I would be strongly
inclined to put in some of these types of interesting features, even
in a fairly modest house. Not sure at all about the open plan boxes
they build on grand designs etc.

Simon.

I wondered if this back room was originally a servants room or
scullery etc, and thus the entrance was tucked out of the way. The
house also had servants bells, but did not show where in the house
these were.

In our Victorian house you can tell where the servants lived and
worked because those rooms have smaller and less ornate skirting
boards and the servants' sides of the doors have no mouldings and less
fancy architraves.

You can also check the old censuses to see how many servants there
were.

Robert

On Nov 4, 9:52*am, harry wrote:
On Nov 3, 10:50*pm, sm_jamieson wrote:



I've always be interested in house design, and the way it relates to
usage etc.
I watched a craft program with Kirsty Allsop, which feature a 6
bedroom detached victorian house in willenhall near walsall,
Birmingham. A few things interested me about it.
The design was a long hall from front to back, and the stairwell was
off to the right of the hall between front and back rooms, with stairs
up to doorway height, then doubling back after a half landing. There
was a mini-hallway under the upper flight beyond the half-landing,
with a window at the end. You didn't see much of the house, but it
seemed to be 4 square rooms downstairs. The back room on the right did
not have an entrance from the main hall, but only from the mini-
hallway, so that it was tucked out of the way, and opposite an under-
stairs cupboard or possibly stairs down to a cellar. All other rooms
led off the hallway.
I wondered if this back room was originally a servants room or
scullery etc, and thus the entrance was tucked out of the way. The
house also had servants bells, but did not show where in the house
these were.
Anyone know if my reasoning for the back room design is likely ?
Simon.

As late as pre ww2 many small households had servant/housekeepers
often living in. *Seems strange to us these days. *They disappeared as
all the household gadgets appeared.

I wonder what the rate of pay was, and if the "help" was treated as
dogsbodies or respected to some degree.
Watching Downton Abbey, I don't know if its a true reflection of the
times, but the Lord of the Manor regards part of his duty as employing
servants. It seems lazy, but at least all the staff are being given
employment and free accommodation.
Its bizarre that in some of those big houses, the staff often
outnumbered the main residents considerably !
I think the Queen Mother had a huge staff like this until she died.
Simon.

sm_jamieson wrote:
On Nov 4, 9:52 am, harry wrote:

As late as pre ww2 many small households had servant/housekeepers
often living in. Seems strange to us these days. They disappeared as
all the household gadgets appeared.

I wonder what the rate of pay was, and if the "help" was treated as
dogsbodies or respected to some degree.

That would depend on the employer. I've seen attitudes ranging from
'part of our family' to 'filthy kaffr girl' in S Africa, where this
situation is still extant.



Watching Downton Abbey, I don't know if its a true reflection of the
times, but the Lord of the Manor regards part of his duty as employing
servants. It seems lazy, but at least all the staff are being given
employment and free accommodation.

Its very true

In S Africa, employing staff is/was a way to both get them off the
streets and also to get them on the first rung of westernisation. When
you have people who have never been exposed to any household appliances
whatsoever, its a steep learning curve.

In India, a friend of mine who left there many years ago bemoans the
fact that he is incapable of doing anything for himself "Our caste was
brought up to employ as many people as possible: There is no social
state, so the lower castes depended on us for enough to stay alive.To do
something for yourself that you could have employed someone else to do,
was a selfishness that was not tolerated". You did not buy an electric
fan, you employed a punkah wallah.


Its bizarre that in some of those big houses, the staff often
outnumbered the main residents considerably !
I think the Queen Mother had a huge staff like this until she died.
Simon.

Prior to electricity and the IC engine, everything was manual in a house.

To prepare a house for the day involved getting up, lighting the fires,
heating the water for early morning baths and showers, laying out the
correct clothes, cooking breakfast and making tea - all this in solid
fuel ranges..

Then drawing all the thick insulating curtains, cleaning up anything and
everything not in pristine state. All that before the owners even woke.

If you don't believe half a dozen people cant make work or 10 servants
when they don't do ANYTHING for themselves, think again.

Full time gardener and handyman, as well..

On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 15:50:44 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson
wrote:

I've always be interested in house design, and the way it relates to
usage etc.
I watched a craft program with Kirsty Allsop, which feature a 6
bedroom detached victorian house in willenhall near walsall,
Birmingham. A few things interested me about it.
The design was a long hall from front to back, and the stairwell was
off to the right of the hall between front and back rooms, with stairs
up to doorway height, then doubling back after a half landing. There
was a mini-hallway under the upper flight beyond the half-landing,
with a window at the end. You didn't see much of the house, but it
seemed to be 4 square rooms downstairs. The back room on the right did
not have an entrance from the main hall, but only from the mini-
hallway, so that it was tucked out of the way, and opposite an under-
stairs cupboard or possibly stairs down to a cellar. All other rooms
led off the hallway.
I wondered if this back room was originally a servants room or
scullery etc, and thus the entrance was tucked out of the way. The
house also had servants bells, but did not show where in the house
these were.
Anyone know if my reasoning for the back room design is likely ?
Simon.

Servants had to be immediately to hand but totally out of sight, so
your reasoning is probably correct.

In message , Ericp
writes
On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 15:50:44 -0700 (PDT), sm_jamieson
wrote:

I've always be interested in house design, and the way it relates to
usage etc.
I watched a craft program with Kirsty Allsop, which feature a 6
bedroom detached victorian house in willenhall near walsall,
Birmingham. A few things interested me about it.
The design was a long hall from front to back, and the stairwell was
off to the right of the hall between front and back rooms, with stairs
up to doorway height, then doubling back after a half landing. There
was a mini-hallway under the upper flight beyond the half-landing,
with a window at the end. You didn't see much of the house, but it
seemed to be 4 square rooms downstairs. The back room on the right did
not have an entrance from the main hall, but only from the mini-
hallway, so that it was tucked out of the way, and opposite an under-
stairs cupboard or possibly stairs down to a cellar. All other rooms
led off the hallway.
I wondered if this back room was originally a servants room or
scullery etc, and thus the entrance was tucked out of the way. The
house also had servants bells, but did not show where in the house
these were.
Anyone know if my reasoning for the back room design is likely ?
Simon.

Servants had to be immediately to hand but totally out of sight, so
your reasoning is probably correct.

Ah memories ...

I used to have a servant

I had fermented some really mean pineapple and mango wine. I decanted it
into a 20l water cooler bottle. I sealed it up to let it settle out.
Unfortunately, the fermentation got a second wind and, at 3am, I thought
a bomb had gone off - it exploded

"KAS !"

Out she came and dutifully cleaned it all up while I went back to bed

Aah - that was the life

--
geoff

On Nov 4, 10:20*am, sm_jamieson wrote:
On Nov 4, 8:27*am, "Andrew Mawson"
snip
We had a family friend years ago who had a house like this, but it
also had a parallel staircase under the main staircase that went up to
the servants rooms, so they really could hide away.

In some cases the servants' "stairs" were just a ladder going up
vertically through a hole in the floor. There are vestiges of these in
one-time almshouses around here -- yes, even they had servants!

The servants room
was at a funny level, sort of intermediate between two floors !
I assume in your house, they would have had to descend from the attic
rooms to the servants suite in the mornings - before anyone else got
up.

I used to work in a place which had started out as a country house and
was subsequently converted into offices and labs. There was, indeed, a
warren of tiny mezzanine rooms in the former servants' quarters. One
room had a half-height ceiling part of the way giving the room above a
bit more floor space. Presumably you put your bed under that, but we
had filing cabinets. We found a bricked-up room in the cellars, but
never investigated. The most wonderful thing was the original loo
mounted on a little platform -- you could see how it got called the
"throne". The story was told that the posh lady who last lived there
being shown round once. She refused to go up the servants' stairs --
it just wasn't done.

Chris

On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 03:23:07 -0700 (PDT), RobertL
wrote:



In our Victorian house you can tell where the servants lived and
worked because those rooms have smaller and less ornate skirting
boards and the servants' sides of the doors have no mouldings and less
fancy architraves.


A few years ago I did a delivery to a Victorian businessman's mansion
on the edge of Leicester, owned by the NHS for years, there's a
hospital in the grounds now. A young Asian woman showed me where the
delivery was to be made, up the big stairs two or three floors, then
through a hidden door in the panelling and a flight of narrow stairs
to rooms in the attic. Opening the hidden door, she commented that the
place was like a rabbit warren and was quite surprised when I told her
that we were passing into the servants' quarters.

In message , Peter Johnson
writes
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 03:23:07 -0700 (PDT), RobertL
wrote:



In our Victorian house you can tell where the servants lived and
worked because those rooms have smaller and less ornate skirting
boards and the servants' sides of the doors have no mouldings and less
fancy architraves.


A few years ago I did a delivery to a Victorian businessman's mansion
on the edge of Leicester, owned by the NHS for years, there's a
hospital in the grounds now. A young Asian woman showed me where the
delivery was to be made, up the big stairs two or three floors, then
through a hidden door in the panelling and a flight of narrow stairs
to rooms in the attic. Opening the hidden door, she commented that the
place was like a rabbit warren and was quite surprised when I told her
that we were passing into the servants' quarters.


We visited Burghley house near Stamford the other day.

The house was originally built in the mid/late 1500's, when they didn't
mind servants going from roon to room.

In Victorian times they put a servants corridor in round much of the
house (basically the house is a sequence of rooms built round a
courtyard, so it was easy enough to built the corridor inside this). You
could see all the hidden doors etc. wall papered over and such like
--
Chris French

In message
,
sm_jamieson writes
On Nov 4, 9:52*am, harry wrote:
On Nov 3, 10:50*pm, sm_jamieson wrote:



I've always be interested in house design, and the way it relates to
usage etc.
I watched a craft program with Kirsty Allsop, which feature a 6
bedroom detached victorian house in willenhall near walsall,
Birmingham. A few things interested me about it.
The design was a long hall from front to back, and the stairwell was
off to the right of the hall between front and back rooms, with stairs
up to doorway height, then doubling back after a half landing. There
was a mini-hallway under the upper flight beyond the half-landing,
with a window at the end. You didn't see much of the house, but it
seemed to be 4 square rooms downstairs. The back room on the right did
not have an entrance from the main hall, but only from the mini-
hallway, so that it was tucked out of the way, and opposite an under-
stairs cupboard or possibly stairs down to a cellar. All other rooms
led off the hallway.
I wondered if this back room was originally a servants room or
scullery etc, and thus the entrance was tucked out of the way. The
house also had servants bells, but did not show where in the house
these were.
Anyone know if my reasoning for the back room design is likely ?
Simon.

As late as pre ww2 many small households had servant/housekeepers
often living in. *Seems strange to us these days. *They disappeared as
all the household gadgets appeared.

I wonder what the rate of pay was,

According to info I have here, Mrs Beetton (about 1860) gives figures
of about 5-10 pounds a year for a Scullery Maid or Stable boy, upto 25 -
50 pounds a year for the cook or Butler

--
Chris French