(Re-send and it didn't show up - chances are there will now be two copies!)



The Locksmith was a right *******!


But why didn't Dom Littlewood tell the bloke in the bit on Houses that all
radiators will lift off?

Some people seem to think that houses that cost more should be of better
quality. Sorry - not the case - they cost more because they occupy more
land, take longer to build and use more materials.

A radiator in an expensive house is still able to lift off - it is designed
like that!

I made me a bit angry!

"John" wrote in message
...
(Re-send and it didn't show up - chances are there will now be two
copies!)



The Locksmith was a right *******!


But why didn't Dom Littlewood tell the bloke in the bit on Houses that all
radiators will lift off?

Some people seem to think that houses that cost more should be of better
quality. Sorry - not the case - they cost more because they occupy more
land, take longer to build and use more materials.

A radiator in an expensive house is still able to lift off - it is
designed
like that!

I made me a bit angry!



We just finished changing our leaky rads yesterday and were amazed to find
that the heavy double cast iron one that generations have sat on in the
living room, was only held to the wall by 4 3/4" '8's. with washers under
the heads to stop them going through the bracket holes!

S

Spamlet wrote:
"John" wrote in message
...
(Re-send and it didn't show up - chances are there will now be two
copies!)



The Locksmith was a right *******!


But why didn't Dom Littlewood tell the bloke in the bit on Houses that all
radiators will lift off?

Some people seem to think that houses that cost more should be of better
quality. Sorry - not the case - they cost more because they occupy more
land, take longer to build and use more materials.

A radiator in an expensive house is still able to lift off - it is
designed
like that!

I made me a bit angry!



We just finished changing our leaky rads yesterday and were amazed to find
that the heavy double cast iron one that generations have sat on in the
living room, was only held to the wall by 4 3/4" '8's. with washers under
the heads to stop them going through the bracket holes!


So?

breaking strain on those is about a ton each

S

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Spamlet wrote:
"John" wrote in message
...
(Re-send and it didn't show up - chances are there will now be two
copies!)



The Locksmith was a right *******!


But why didn't Dom Littlewood tell the bloke in the bit on Houses that
all
radiators will lift off?

Some people seem to think that houses that cost more should be of better
quality. Sorry - not the case - they cost more because they occupy more
land, take longer to build and use more materials.

A radiator in an expensive house is still able to lift off - it is
designed
like that!

I made me a bit angry!



We just finished changing our leaky rads yesterday and were amazed to
find that the heavy double cast iron one that generations have sat on in
the living room, was only held to the wall by 4 3/4" '8's. with washers
under the heads to stop them going through the bracket holes!


So?

breaking strain on those is about a ton each

And I should think the weight of the rad plus water plus person, acting on
the small area of bracket in contact with the screw, must have come
perilously close to that, or more, on a number of occasions. Still, they
are certainly stronger than they look!

S

Spamlet wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Spamlet wrote:
"John" wrote in message
...
(Re-send and it didn't show up - chances are there will now be two
copies!)



The Locksmith was a right *******!


But why didn't Dom Littlewood tell the bloke in the bit on Houses that
all
radiators will lift off?

Some people seem to think that houses that cost more should be of better
quality. Sorry - not the case - they cost more because they occupy more
land, take longer to build and use more materials.

A radiator in an expensive house is still able to lift off - it is
designed
like that!

I made me a bit angry!


We just finished changing our leaky rads yesterday and were amazed to
find that the heavy double cast iron one that generations have sat on in
the living room, was only held to the wall by 4 3/4" '8's. with washers
under the heads to stop them going through the bracket holes!

So?

breaking strain on those is about a ton each

And I should think the weight of the rad plus water plus person, acting on
the small area of bracket in contact with the screw, must have come
perilously close to that, or more, on a number of occasions.

You really are clueless. Don't you KNOW what a person weighs, or about
moment arms and shear forces? Or what water weighs?


Still, they
are certainly stronger than they look!
##


No, they are exactly as strong as they look, to someone who has spend a
lifetime around mechanical things.

And has in fact lifted things weighing up to a ton with hoists and the
like, and hung off a mere 1/4" piton banged into a rock face, though it
aint my bag..

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Spamlet wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Spamlet wrote:
"John" wrote in message
...
(Re-send and it didn't show up - chances are there will now be two
copies!)



The Locksmith was a right *******!


But why didn't Dom Littlewood tell the bloke in the bit on Houses that
all
radiators will lift off?

Some people seem to think that houses that cost more should be of
better
quality. Sorry - not the case - they cost more because they occupy
more
land, take longer to build and use more materials.

A radiator in an expensive house is still able to lift off - it is
designed
like that!

I made me a bit angry!


We just finished changing our leaky rads yesterday and were amazed to
find that the heavy double cast iron one that generations have sat on
in the living room, was only held to the wall by 4 3/4" '8's. with
washers under the heads to stop them going through the bracket holes!

So?

breaking strain on those is about a ton each

And I should think the weight of the rad plus water plus person, acting
on the small area of bracket in contact with the screw, must have come
perilously close to that, or more, on a number of occasions.

You really are clueless. Don't you KNOW what a person weighs, or about
moment arms and shear forces? Or what water weighs?


Still, they are certainly stronger than they look!
##


No, they are exactly as strong as they look, to someone who has spend a
lifetime around mechanical things.

And has in fact lifted things weighing up to a ton with hoists and the
like, and hung off a mere 1/4" piton banged into a rock face, though it
aint my bag..


I spent several years testing most of the batches of screws and other metal
components and raw materials in the metallurgical lab at Standard
Telephones.

Let me know of any other heavy radiators you fit using 3/4" 8 screws. And
let me know what the householder - and 'Watchdog' program have to say about
your choice.

S

On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 00:43:58 +0100, Spamlet wrote:

Let me know of any other heavy radiators you fit using 3/4" 8 screws.
And let me know what the householder - and 'Watchdog' program have to
say about your choice.

The screws are perfectly adequate to take the load, they won't break
or shear. How ever the same may not be said for the substrate into
which they are driven, that may well fail. Into Plaster/plasterboard
no chance, into correctly fitting plugs in stone or hard brick would
be fine.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 00:43:58 +0100, Spamlet wrote:

Let me know of any other heavy radiators you fit using 3/4" 8 screws.
And let me know what the householder - and 'Watchdog' program have to
say about your choice.

The screws are perfectly adequate to take the load, they won't break
or shear. How ever the same may not be said for the substrate into
which they are driven, that may well fail. Into Plaster/plasterboard
no chance, into correctly fitting plugs in stone or hard brick would
be fine.

Thank you.

If its into masonry no problems.

Wood somewhat less ideal, but if decent wood, its fine.

Spamlet seems to have less than half a clue really.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 00:43:58 +0100, Spamlet wrote:

Let me know of any other heavy radiators you fit using 3/4" 8 screws.
And let me know what the householder - and 'Watchdog' program have to
say about your choice.

The screws are perfectly adequate to take the load, they won't break
or shear. How ever the same may not be said for the substrate into
which they are driven, that may well fail. Into Plaster/plasterboard
no chance, into correctly fitting plugs in stone or hard brick would
be fine.

I have used screws that short to fix heavier things than a radiator into 18
mm plywood.
They aren't going to come out.
However they might have if I had used 1" or bigger as the threads would have
no longer been in the ply.
I tried pulling one out with a claw hammer but it wasn't happening and I am
not an 8 stone weakling.
Of course I would have used a bigger screw to avoid putting washers on as I
virtually never have the correct washer when I want one.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 00:43:58 +0100, Spamlet wrote:

Let me know of any other heavy radiators you fit using 3/4" 8 screws.
And let me know what the householder - and 'Watchdog' program have to
say about your choice.

The screws are perfectly adequate to take the load, they won't break
or shear. How ever the same may not be said for the substrate into
which they are driven, that may well fail. Into Plaster/plasterboard
no chance, into correctly fitting plugs in stone or hard brick would
be fine.

Thank you.

If its into masonry no problems.

Wood somewhat less ideal, but if decent wood, its fine.

Spamlet seems to have less than half a clue really.

Well it wasn't actually Spamlet wot pointed out the problem: it was the
fitter who has been fitting rads and building houses for some 40 odd years
and not seen anything like it in all that time.
Reading all the twaddle on this has lowered my trust in uk-d-i-y, which
hithertofore I would have recommended to anyone.

S

Plaster thickness is everything re whether this will work.

16mm hard plaster, end-expansion plug, tight hole - whilst the 19mm
screw does not reach the brick it may grip enough for shear and light
pull-out resistance.

3mm hard plaster, 20mm rubbish sand-cement render, MID-expansion
Fischer SX6 30mm plug - whilst a 25mm screw sounds longer, it causes
mid-expansion of the plug and very weak pull-out resistance. I know,
because a test-pull of a radiator fitted thus removed the plugs from
the holes with screws still snugged tight up to the bracket! Now had I
gone with a b@st@rd 40mm screw and things are very different, the 4-
way expansion plugs are very strong. Instead I have a wall to (still)
repair which unobtainium wallpaper at unobtainium price in any case.

Personally a 3/4" #8 is only good for holding a backbox still in an
SX6-30 whilst the plaster goes off.

I think the old "torx-style-fibre-rawlplug" are more tolerant of short
screw depth, the modern polythene type rely on interference fit
without much grip, the nylon 4-way mid-expansion Fischer grip well if
you use a long enough screw and a tight hole which is critical
otherwise they will pull out.

js.b1 wrote:
Plaster thickness is everything re whether this will work.

16mm hard plaster, end-expansion plug, tight hole - whilst the 19mm
screw does not reach the brick it may grip enough for shear and light
pull-out resistance.

3mm hard plaster, 20mm rubbish sand-cement render, MID-expansion
Fischer SX6 30mm plug - whilst a 25mm screw sounds longer, it causes
mid-expansion of the plug and very weak pull-out resistance. I know,
because a test-pull of a radiator fitted thus removed the plugs from
the holes with screws still snugged tight up to the bracket!

And yet you could sit on it and it din't come off....

THINK about it.

UNDERSTAND moment arms shear force tensile force etc etc..

Spamlet wrote:

Reading all the twaddle on this has lowered my trust in uk-d-i-y, which
hithertofore I would have recommended to anyone.


Only twaddler here was you.

And its heretofore, janitor.

S

On Sep 25, 11:24*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
And yet you could sit on it and it din't come off....
THINK about it.
UNDERSTAND moment arms shear force tensile force etc etc..

Oh yes, but pull out strength is important to consider as well. Never
assume plaster is strong or thin on an older house, you can end up
with a plug sitting in mush yet appears fine.

Still think those fibre rawlplugs did a good job, they do not slip out
so easily as their cheap polythene copies.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 00:43:58 +0100, Spamlet wrote:

Let me know of any other heavy radiators you fit using 3/4" 8 screws.
And let me know what the householder - and 'Watchdog' program have to
say about your choice.

The screws are perfectly adequate to take the load, they won't break
or shear. How ever the same may not be said for the substrate into
which they are driven, that may well fail. Into Plaster/plasterboard
no chance, into correctly fitting plugs in stone or hard brick would
be fine.

How much thread is left after you subtract the thickness of the washer
plus the thing you are affixing?
I would not like to trust it.

js.b1 wrote:
On Sep 25, 11:24 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
And yet you could sit on it and it din't come off....
THINK about it.
UNDERSTAND moment arms shear force tensile force etc etc..

Oh yes, but pull out strength is important to consider as well. Never
assume plaster is strong or thin on an older house, you can end up
with a plug sitting in mush yet appears fine.

Still think those fibre rawlplugs did a good job, they do not slip out
so easily as their cheap polythene copies.

First of all, the fact that you dont understand the relationship
between moment arm and 'pull out force' is telling.

Secondly, the plastic is as good IF the hole is of the completely
correct diameter.

No screw will hold in mushy plaster, and I never ever put a screw that
is to take any weight at all in plasterboard unsupported. Irresepective
of length diameter or what its made of.

If the plaster is rubbish, it gets the new plaster or car body filler
treatment.

If its plasterboard, it gets cut away and a noggin inserted.