Woo-hoo! It's my lucky day! ...Or is it??

I picked up a whole set of second-hand radiators today, for the princely
sum of £5! I thought this was fantastic, because my house needs a central
heating system, and I have to somehow install one on a shoestring due to a
long-term income aqueeze due to a long-term disability.

I hauled the things home and then I started thinking... I wonder if
radiators are the best option... Would underfloor heating be a better
choice? At least for the upstairs, (the ground floor floors are solid
comcrete). The house was built in 1991, with chipboard floors upstairs. The
pipework for central heating is already in place, with stubs sticking up
where radiators could be sited.

I can see the attraction of underfloor heating, namely that one doesn't
have unsightly radiators limiting one's furniture-siting options, but is
the alternative (underfloor heating) easy for the DIY-er to install? How
much does it cost to do the upstairs of a 3-bed semi? How about if I did
the whole house (concrete floors and all)? Does anyone know any crafty
tricks that enable one to install an underfloor heating circuit cheaply?

Thank you!

Al

On 17 Sep, 03:55, "AL_n" wrote:
Woo-hoo! It's my lucky day! ...Or is it??

I picked up a whole set of second-hand radiators today, for the princely
sum of £5! I thought this was fantastic, because my house needs a central
heating system, and I have to somehow install one on a shoestring due to a
long-term income aqueeze due to a long-term disability.

I hauled the things home and then I started thinking... *I wonder if
radiators are the best option... Would underfloor heating be a better
choice? At least for the upstairs, (the ground floor floors are solid
comcrete). The house was built in 1991, with chipboard floors upstairs. The
pipework for central heating is already in place, with stubs sticking up
where radiators could be sited.

I can see the attraction of underfloor heating, namely that one doesn't
have unsightly radiators limiting one's furniture-siting options, but is
the alternative (underfloor heating) easy for the DIY-er to install? How
much does it cost to do the upstairs of a 3-bed semi? How about if I did
the whole house (concrete floors and all)? Does anyone know any crafty
tricks that enable one to install an underfloor heating circuit cheaply?

Thank you!

Al

Well, take them straight back. They will be full of leaks/incipient
leaks. You weren't lucky, you were conned. They rust like buggery
once removed from the system they were once on. From the inside.
If you are doing work on the floors, them you should definitely have
underfloor heating. It's run at a much lower water temperature than
radiators which makes the boiler run more efficiently.
Talking of which, DON'T go running off buying 2nd hand boilers either.
There are no crafty tricks. Just hard work and expense.
Before you start, check out the insulation in your house.
My own house has no CH, just massive insulation.

AL_n wrote:
Woo-hoo! It's my lucky day! ...Or is it??

I picked up a whole set of second-hand radiators today, for the princely
sum of £5! I thought this was fantastic, because my house needs a central
heating system, and I have to somehow install one on a shoestring due to a
long-term income aqueeze due to a long-term disability.

I hauled the things home and then I started thinking... I wonder if
radiators are the best option... Would underfloor heating be a better
choice? At least for the upstairs, (the ground floor floors are solid
comcrete). The house was built in 1991, with chipboard floors upstairs. The
pipework for central heating is already in place, with stubs sticking up
where radiators could be sited.

I can see the attraction of underfloor heating, namely that one doesn't
have unsightly radiators limiting one's furniture-siting options, but is
the alternative (underfloor heating) easy for the DIY-er to install? How
much does it cost to do the upstairs of a 3-bed semi? How about if I did
the whole house (concrete floors and all)? Does anyone know any crafty
tricks that enable one to install an underfloor heating circuit cheaply?


Its certainly worth thinking about BUT UFH suits lots of warmish water
rather than a little hot, and often requires a step down auxiliary
circuit to drop temperatures below acceptable for a floor sytem

Its almost impossible to do retrospectively on solid floors without
digging them up and relaying them. You MUST habe LOTS of insulation
between them and the cold ground.

Its very ineffective with fitted carpets as well.

If you haven't got the time or money to do it well, use radiators.

Or you will be disapppointed.

Thank you!

Al

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:57:51 -0700, harry wrote:

On 17 Sep, 03:55, "AL_n" wrote:
Woo-hoo! It's my lucky day! ...Or is it??

I picked up a whole set of second-hand radiators today, for the
princely sum of £5! I thought this was fantastic, because my house
needs a central heating system, and I have to somehow install one on a
shoestring due to a long-term income aqueeze due to a long-term
disability.

I hauled the things home and then I started thinking... Â*I wonder if
radiators are the best option... Would underfloor heating be a better
choice? At least for the upstairs, (the ground floor floors are solid
comcrete). The house was built in 1991, with chipboard floors upstairs.
The pipework for central heating is already in place, with stubs
sticking up where radiators could be sited.

I can see the attraction of underfloor heating, namely that one doesn't
have unsightly radiators limiting one's furniture-siting options, but
is the alternative (underfloor heating) easy for the DIY-er to install?
How much does it cost to do the upstairs of a 3-bed semi? How about if
I did the whole house (concrete floors and all)? Does anyone know any
crafty tricks that enable one to install an underfloor heating circuit
cheaply?

Thank you!

Al

Well, take them straight back. They will be full of leaks/incipient
leaks.

Presumably it's possible to seal them at one end and hook them up to a
compressor to see if they're leaky? Maybe they came out of a house that
was being converted to some other form of heating system, so they're not
necessarily junk.

cheers

Jules

On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:35:10 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

AL_n wrote:

Its almost impossible to do retrospectively on solid floors without
digging them up and relaying them. You MUST habe LOTS of insulation
between them and the cold ground.

As mentioned above retrofit is very difficult. Even for the upstairs
it would involve removing most of the floor to get the pipes and heat
spreader plates in.

Its very ineffective with fitted carpets as well.

Works perfectly well here with fitted carpets.

If you haven't got the time or money to do it well, use radiators.

I'd agree with that, especially if you have the pipe work for
radiators already in position.

Peter Parry wrote:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:35:10 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

AL_n wrote:

Its almost impossible to do retrospectively on solid floors without
digging them up and relaying them. You MUST habe LOTS of insulation
between them and the cold ground.

As mentioned above retrofit is very difficult. Even for the upstairs
it would involve removing most of the floor to get the pipes and heat
spreader plates in.

Its very ineffective with fitted carpets as well.

Works perfectly well here with fitted carpets.


the two statements are not mutually incompatible: where I have
carpeting, the floor gets pretty hot underneath, showing the rug makes a
decent insulator. Now if that is upstairs, then more heat is lost to
downstairs..if its on the ground floor, more heat is lost to the ground
or air. Not good.

You get less watts per square meter out of a carpeted floor than a tiled
one for sure. That means you need more pipes and a hotter running floor.
And increase risk of heat loss downwards rather than upwards. It can
work perfectly effectively, in the same way you can perfectly
effectively heat an uninsulated house with 20KW of fan blown convectors.
It just may not be the most efficient way to do things.



If you haven't got the time or money to do it well, use radiators.

I'd agree with that, especially if you have the pipe work for
radiators already in position.

John Rumm wrote:
On 17/09/2010 13:47, Jules Richardson wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 22:57:51 -0700, harry wrote:

On 17 Sep, 03:55, wrote:
Woo-hoo! It's my lucky day! ...Or is it??

I picked up a whole set of second-hand radiators today, for the
princely sum of £5! I thought this was fantastic, because my house
needs a central heating system, and I have to somehow install one on a
shoestring due to a long-term income aqueeze due to a long-term
disability.

I hauled the things home and then I started thinking... I wonder if
radiators are the best option... Would underfloor heating be a better
choice? At least for the upstairs, (the ground floor floors are solid
comcrete). The house was built in 1991, with chipboard floors upstairs.
The pipework for central heating is already in place, with stubs
sticking up where radiators could be sited.

I can see the attraction of underfloor heating, namely that one doesn't
have unsightly radiators limiting one's furniture-siting options, but
is the alternative (underfloor heating) easy for the DIY-er to install?
How much does it cost to do the upstairs of a 3-bed semi? How about if
I did the whole house (concrete floors and all)? Does anyone know any
crafty tricks that enable one to install an underfloor heating circuit
cheaply?

Thank you!

Al

Well, take them straight back. They will be full of leaks/incipient
leaks.

Presumably it's possible to seal them at one end and hook them up to a
compressor to see if they're leaky? Maybe they came out of a house that
was being converted to some other form of heating system, so they're not
necessarily junk.

Agreed, the rads may be fine - even if a bit rusty, if they hold water
once flushed and treated with inhibitor, then there is no reason to
expect them to fail at an accelerated rate after that.

However, I would caution against pressure testing any unknown container
with compressed air as this is highly dangerous and will result in an
explosion if a failure were to occur. Pressure testing is usually done
with water for this reason - its inelastic and hence can't store masses
of energy in compression.


greed. a 5 bar test on CH systems with water, is a damned good idea
anyway. Will find any weeping joints and pinholes quickly.

John Rumm wrote in
o.uk:



The crafty "tricks" that pros use to do it cheaply include things like
running all the pipework clipped to walls rather than under floors
etc. However if you are doing the work its really down to how you cost
your time, since these tricks will not save you any material costs.
Since you say you have pipework, it all sounds a bit academic anyway -
the hard bit is done.


Thanks to all for the advice thus far. OK then, it looks as though I'll be
using the radiators after all. They appear to be in serviceable condition.
There may be a little rust on the inside. I will flush thoroughly, etc.

Al

On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 16:06:33 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
Agreed, the rads may be fine - even if a bit rusty, if they hold water
once flushed and treated with inhibitor, then there is no reason to
expect them to fail at an accelerated rate after that.

However, I would caution against pressure testing any unknown container
with compressed air as this is highly dangerous and will result in an
explosion if a failure were to occur. Pressure testing is usually done
with water for this reason - its inelastic and hence can't store masses
of energy in compression.

Yes, good point! (although I would expect any rad that's likely to
catastrophically fail under pressure to be obviously junk - and most will
just pop and hiss if they're going to do anything at all. But better safe
than impaled by chunks of steel, as they say :-)

On Sep 17, 3:55*am, "AL_n" wrote:
Woo-hoo! It's my lucky day! ...Or is it??

I picked up a whole set of second-hand radiators today, for the princely
sum of £5! I thought this was fantastic, because my house needs a central
heating system, and I have to somehow install one on a shoestring due to a
long-term income aqueeze due to a long-term disability.

I hauled the things home and then I started thinking... *I wonder if
radiators are the best option... Would underfloor heating be a better
choice? At least for the upstairs, (the ground floor floors are solid
comcrete). The house was built in 1991, with chipboard floors upstairs. The
pipework for central heating is already in place, with stubs sticking up
where radiators could be sited.

I can see the attraction of underfloor heating, namely that one doesn't
have unsightly radiators limiting one's furniture-siting options, but is
the alternative (underfloor heating) easy for the DIY-er to install? How
much does it cost to do the upstairs of a 3-bed semi? How about if I did
the whole house (concrete floors and all)? Does anyone know any crafty
tricks that enable one to install an underfloor heating circuit cheaply?

The answer in your case is simple and you've already reached the
conclusion that you'll use the rads. In which case, make the most of
the available heat by ensuring that the wall behind is insulated and
that you have reflective foil behind each of the rads. And, most
important, a shelf above, to keep the heat from going straight up to
the ceiling.

Existing concrete floors downstairs make life rather difficult when it
comes to installing underfloor heating. Depending on how thick it is,
you might be able to use a Stihl saw -- perhaps in two bites -- to cut
it into squares just inside the walls of each room and remove it,
excavate down far enough to install insulating board and then lay a
snake of PEX pipe below -- or actually just within -- a new concrete
floor. We did a simple snake of PEX pipe in two rooms here about
fifteen years ago when the 150 year old suspended floors were being
replaced -- and our only regret is that we didn't do it over the whole
ground floor of the house. As has been pointed out, you need to
ensure that the temperature of the circulating water is within the
temperature rating of the PEX pipe. You also need to note, as has
again been pointed out, the need to run it rather hotter if there are
any carpeted areas. However, there's an overlap between the range
of temperatures suitable for rads and those suitable for PEX pipe, so
by playing around with valves to control the flow rate to different
areas it is possible to mix UFL and rads. Not ideal. But
possible. UFL is great -- but only if you're in the house most of
the time. It's going to take a day to change the temperature in a big
way, so it's no use for people who are out all day -- they're not
getting the good of it. It makes for a very draught-free house,
though -- a much more even temperature.

John

"AL_n" wrote in message
...

Woo-hoo! It's my lucky day! ...Or is it??

I picked up a whole set of second-hand radiators today, for the princely
sum of £5! I thought this was fantastic, because my house needs a central
heating system, and I have to somehow install one on a shoestring due to a
long-term income aqueeze due to a long-term disability.

I hauled the things home and then I started thinking... I wonder if
radiators are the best option... Would underfloor heating be a better
choice? At least for the upstairs, (the ground floor floors are solid
comcrete). The house was built in 1991, with chipboard floors upstairs.
The
pipework for central heating is already in place, with stubs sticking up
where radiators could be sited.

I can see the attraction of underfloor heating, namely that one doesn't
have unsightly radiators limiting one's furniture-siting options, but is
the alternative (underfloor heating) easy for the DIY-er to install? How
much does it cost to do the upstairs of a 3-bed semi? How about if I did
the whole house (concrete floors and all)? Does anyone know any crafty
tricks that enable one to install an underfloor heating circuit cheaply?

Thank you!

Al

I visited a campus office where they had underfllor heating. It was awful
and I had to take my shoes off and keep my feet up on a chair to survive a
meeting.

On the other hand, under bathroom or kitchen floor tiles, a little heating
is good for the early morning bare feet.

S

In article , Peter Parry wrote:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 10:35:10 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

AL_n wrote:

Its almost impossible to do retrospectively on solid floors without
digging them up and relaying them. You MUST habe LOTS of insulation
between them and the cold ground.

As mentioned above retrofit is very difficult. Even for the upstairs
it would involve removing most of the floor to get the pipes and heat
spreader plates in.

When the old Nu-Heat underfloor heating in my house failed upstairs,
we decided taking down all the downstairs ceilings off would be a lot
easier than taking up the floors upstairs (large T+G chipboard panels,
with the walls built on top of them). And putting new heating on top of
the existing floor then a new floor on top of that even easier, but still
a pain in the neck. So now there are radiators.


Its very ineffective with fitted carpets as well.

Works perfectly well here with fitted carpets.

And here - or at least when it didn't work, the carpets had nothing to
do with it. But the more insulation on top of it, the more important
the insulation underneath is, and the slower the response to the pipes
heating is, so really thick carpets might be unwise.

In article , Jules Richardson wrote:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2010 16:06:33 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
Agreed, the rads may be fine - even if a bit rusty, if they hold water
once flushed and treated with inhibitor, then there is no reason to
expect them to fail at an accelerated rate after that.

However, I would caution against pressure testing any unknown container
with compressed air as this is highly dangerous and will result in an
explosion if a failure were to occur. Pressure testing is usually done
with water for this reason - its inelastic and hence can't store masses
of energy in compression.

Yes, good point! (although I would expect any rad that's likely to
catastrophically fail under pressure to be obviously junk - and most will
just pop and hiss if they're going to do anything at all. But better safe
than impaled by chunks of steel, as they say :-)

Much of the strength of the legs on this was just to hold it up when
filled with water for initial pressure testing:
http://s133.photobucket.com/albums/q...urrent=t42.jpg

(Largest pressure vessel in Europe at the time, so I was told. Unless that
was the 9x13, not the 8x8.)

Spamlet wrote:
"AL_n" wrote in message
...
Woo-hoo! It's my lucky day! ...Or is it??

I picked up a whole set of second-hand radiators today, for the princely
sum of £5! I thought this was fantastic, because my house needs a central
heating system, and I have to somehow install one on a shoestring due to a
long-term income aqueeze due to a long-term disability.

I hauled the things home and then I started thinking... I wonder if
radiators are the best option... Would underfloor heating be a better
choice? At least for the upstairs, (the ground floor floors are solid
comcrete). The house was built in 1991, with chipboard floors upstairs.
The
pipework for central heating is already in place, with stubs sticking up
where radiators could be sited.

I can see the attraction of underfloor heating, namely that one doesn't
have unsightly radiators limiting one's furniture-siting options, but is
the alternative (underfloor heating) easy for the DIY-er to install? How
much does it cost to do the upstairs of a 3-bed semi? How about if I did
the whole house (concrete floors and all)? Does anyone know any crafty
tricks that enable one to install an underfloor heating circuit cheaply?

Thank you!

Al

I visited a campus office where they had underfllor heating. It was awful
and I had to take my shoes off and keep my feet up on a chair to survive a
meeting.


Public sector heating is always at someone else's expense..

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in
:


Look at the Avantplus 39C combi.


Only one combi??


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