Have discovered a large area of wetness in the kitchen ceiling and
down the wall. The bathroom is above - more particularly the bath
itself. There are the hot and cold feeds to the bath runniing along
parallel to the wall just above the plaster and just less than an inch
away from it, with a 4" waste pipe a couple of inches above them
running along to the stack pipe at the end of the bath.

Thought I was going to have to take the bath out to get at the
problem, but then had a brain wave and cut away the ceiling plaster
parallel to the wall in the kitchen that runs under these pipes. I
find there is a moderately slow drip coming from a point at the near
the base of the low pressure cold feed pipe to the bath (which for
some bizarre reason is 28 mm pipe). There is no sign of any trauma to
the pipe at what seems to be a very localised point of leaking, no
scratch or sign of a nail having been inadvertantly driven into the
pipe

Is it at all possible or likely that a piece of copper pipe could have
a thin section which could eventually leak over a period in time in
the absence of any trauma to the pipe? I'm wondering, if that is
possible, whether I should replace the whole pipe, or just the piece
that is leaking.

Thoughts please.

Keith

Keefiedee wrote:
Have discovered a large area of wetness in the kitchen ceiling and
down the wall. The bathroom is above - more particularly the bath
itself. There are the hot and cold feeds to the bath runniing along
parallel to the wall just above the plaster and just less than an inch
away from it, with a 4" waste pipe a couple of inches above them
running along to the stack pipe at the end of the bath.

Thought I was going to have to take the bath out to get at the
problem, but then had a brain wave and cut away the ceiling plaster
parallel to the wall in the kitchen that runs under these pipes. I
find there is a moderately slow drip coming from a point at the near
the base of the low pressure cold feed pipe to the bath (which for
some bizarre reason is 28 mm pipe). There is no sign of any trauma to
the pipe at what seems to be a very localised point of leaking, no
scratch or sign of a nail having been inadvertantly driven into the
pipe

Is it at all possible or likely that a piece of copper pipe could have
a thin section which could eventually leak over a period in time in
the absence of any trauma to the pipe? I'm wondering, if that is
possible, whether I should replace the whole pipe, or just the piece
that is leaking.

Thoughts please.

Keith

Is it leaking from a joint?
Have you checked that it's not leaking further away from where it's
dripping? - water finds the lowest point and it could be that the lowest
point is where you are seeing the drips.
Other than that, if it *is* in the middle of a section then it's frost
damage and it must have been like this for about 6 months before you noticed
it.


--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

On 25 July, 16:00, Keefiedee wrote:

Is it at all possible or likely that a piece of copper pipe could have
a thin section which could eventually leak over a period in time in
the absence of any trauma to the pipe? *

Possibly uncleaned flux residue from a soldered joint years before,
now having eaten through and pinholed the pipe.

On Jul 25, 4:30*pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 25 July, 16:00, Keefiedee wrote:

Is it at all possible or likely that a piece of copper pipe could have
a thin section which could eventually leak over a period in time in
the absence of any trauma to the pipe? *

Possibly uncleaned flux residue from a soldered joint years before,
now having eaten through and pinholed the pipe.

Not leaking from a joint, and pipe is horizontal and is now dry on
either side of the drip now I have opened it up and got air to it all,
so I'm pretty sure it is a failure at that point. I don't think it
could be frost damage as it is not in an exposed position and wouldn't
barely be any colder than the interior of the kitchen and bathroom
are, and they were heated and thus frostproof all winter. There is a
soldered jont about 2 feet "upwind" of the leak, but that would have
been done perhaps 10 - 15 years ago - would it take that long?

Keith

Keith

On 25/07/2010 16:00, Keefiedee wrote:
Have discovered a large area of wetness in the kitchen ceiling and
down the wall. The bathroom is above - more particularly the bath
itself. There are the hot and cold feeds to the bath runniing along
parallel to the wall just above the plaster and just less than an inch
away from it, with a 4" waste pipe a couple of inches above them
running along to the stack pipe at the end of the bath.

Thought I was going to have to take the bath out to get at the
problem, but then had a brain wave and cut away the ceiling plaster
parallel to the wall in the kitchen that runs under these pipes. I
find there is a moderately slow drip coming from a point at the near
the base of the low pressure cold feed pipe to the bath (which for
some bizarre reason is 28 mm pipe). There is no sign of any trauma to
the pipe at what seems to be a very localised point of leaking, no
scratch or sign of a nail having been inadvertantly driven into the
pipe

Is it at all possible or likely that a piece of copper pipe could have
a thin section which could eventually leak over a period in time in
the absence of any trauma to the pipe? I'm wondering, if that is
possible, whether I should replace the whole pipe, or just the piece
that is leaking.

Thoughts please.

Keith


How sure are you that it's definitely the pipe itself which is leaking?
It's more likely that a joint is leaking slightly higher up, with the
water running along the outside of the pipe and dripping at the point
where you assume the leak to be. The water could even be coming from the
waste pipe.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Jul 25, 4:49*pm, Roger Mills wrote:
On 25/07/2010 16:00, Keefiedee wrote:



Have discovered a large area of wetness in the kitchen ceiling and
down the wall. *The bathroom is above - more particularly the bath
itself. *There are the hot and cold feeds to the bath runniing along
parallel to the wall just above the plaster and just less than an inch
away from it, with a 4" waste pipe a couple of inches above them
running along to the stack pipe at the end of the bath.

Thought I was going to have to take the bath out to get at the
problem, but then had a brain wave and cut away the ceiling plaster
parallel to the wall in the kitchen that runs under these pipes. *I
find there is a moderately slow drip coming from a point at the near
the base of the low pressure cold feed pipe to the bath (which for
some bizarre reason is 28 mm pipe). *There is no sign of any trauma to
the pipe at what seems to be a very localised point of leaking, no
scratch or sign of a nail having been inadvertantly driven into the
pipe

Is it at all possible or likely that a piece of copper pipe could have
a thin section which could eventually leak over a period in time in
the absence of any trauma to the pipe? *I'm wondering, if that is
possible, whether I should replace the whole pipe, or just the piece
that is leaking.

Thoughts please.

Keith

How sure are you that it's definitely the pipe itself which is leaking?
It's more likely that a joint is leaking slightly higher up, with the
water running along the outside of the pipe and dripping at the point
where you assume the leak to be. The water could even be coming from the
waste pipe.
--
Absolutely certain. The points you make are very valid, but, as I
have mentioned already - the pipe is absolutely horizontal and is now
completely dry on either side of the leak. And the waste pipe seems
totally intact with no sign of water dripping from it. In any case,
the waste pipe would only be carrying water to drip from occasionally,
when someone is using the shower, and this drip is absolutely
constant. That was why I posted in the first place - because I found
it hard to belive that a copper pipe could be leaking like that for no
obvious reason.

Keith

On 25 July, 16:00, Keefiedee wrote:
Have discovered a large area of wetness in the kitchen ceiling and
down the wall. *The bathroom is above - more particularly the bath
itself. *There are the hot and cold feeds to the bath runniing along
parallel to the wall just above the plaster and just less than an inch
away from it, with a 4" waste pipe a couple of inches above them
running along to the stack pipe at the end of the bath.

Thought I was going to have to take the bath out to get at the
problem, but then had a brain wave and cut away the ceiling plaster
parallel to the wall in the kitchen that runs under these pipes. *I
find there is a moderately slow drip coming from a point at the near
the base of the low pressure cold feed pipe to the bath (which for
some bizarre reason is 28 mm pipe). *There is no sign of any trauma to
the pipe at what seems to be a very localised point of leaking, no
scratch or sign of a nail having been inadvertantly driven into the
pipe

Is it at all possible or likely that a piece of copper pipe could have
a thin section which could eventually leak over a period in time in
the absence of any trauma to the pipe? *I'm wondering, if that is
possible, whether I should replace the whole pipe, or just the piece
that is leaking.

Thoughts please.

Keith

In days of yore a problem arose with copper pipe in that pinhole leaks
appeared. It transpired eventually to be due to residue lubricant
from the manufacuring process, (the pipe is drawn through dies).

It's possibly fiux too, the flux used in days of yore was aggressive,
it was not possible tp clean it off it wasn't water soluble. This is
likely if the leak is near a soldered joint.
You will need to find exactly where the leak is. There are available
"slip connectors" for these repairs (ie there is no stop inside the
fitting so you can cut the pipe on the leak and move one bit aside
and slide the fitting right onto one pipe, realign and slide onto the
other pipe. Mark the pipe so the joint is centralised on the cut.
There are also longer couplings intended to repair frost damaged pipe
but good for this too.
The water could be from the waste and also from the joint between bath
and wall. You will need to determine exactly what's what before you
can proceed.

As previously mentioned, I have absolute certainty where this leak is
coming from, and it is not the waste of down the side of the bath. I
am actually watching a regular drip - drip - drip from one very
localised point on the pipe.

Can anyone give me a link to slip connectors so I can see exactly what
you're talking about please? That sounds the answer, and I won't have
to call a plumber out - just a plasterer to replace the ceiling!

Keith

On Jul 25, 7:49*pm, Keefiedee wrote:
As previously mentioned, I have absolute certainty where this leak is
coming from, and it is not the waste of down the side of the bath. *I
am actually watching a regular drip - drip - drip from one very
localised point on the pipe.

Can anyone give me a link to slip connectors so I can see exactly what
you're talking about please? *That sounds the answer, and I won't have
to call a plumber out - just a plasterer to replace the ceiling!

Keith

Are slip connectors available as compression fittings or only
soldered?

Keith

Keefiedee wrote:


Not leaking from a joint, and pipe is horizontal and is now dry on
either side of the drip now I have opened it up and got air to it all,
so I'm pretty sure it is a failure at that point. I don't think it
could be frost damage as it is not in an exposed position and wouldn't
barely be any colder than the interior of the kitchen and bathroom
are, and they were heated and thus frostproof all winter. There is a
soldered jont about 2 feet "upwind" of the leak, but that would have
been done perhaps 10 - 15 years ago - would it take that long?

Is the wall they are near an outside wall? - if so there is a hole in it and
the pipe has frozen.

I have never known copper pipe to be 'eaten' away by flux, and I seriously
doubt this could occur in 10-15 years anyway, and not without a large patch
of blue/green corrosion being visible around the leak.

I've seen dozens of pipes freeze in exactly this position, between kitchen
and bathroom, and it's always the same culprit - a hole in the brickwork


--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

Keefiedee wrote:
Have discovered a large area of wetness in the kitchen ceiling and
down the wall. The bathroom is above - more particularly the bath
itself. There are the hot and cold feeds to the bath runniing along
parallel to the wall just above the plaster and just less than an inch
away from it, with a 4" waste pipe a couple of inches above them
running along to the stack pipe at the end of the bath.

Thought I was going to have to take the bath out to get at the
problem, but then had a brain wave and cut away the ceiling plaster
parallel to the wall in the kitchen that runs under these pipes. I
find there is a moderately slow drip coming from a point at the near
the base of the low pressure cold feed pipe to the bath (which for
some bizarre reason is 28 mm pipe). There is no sign of any trauma to
the pipe at what seems to be a very localised point of leaking, no
scratch or sign of a nail having been inadvertantly driven into the
pipe

Is it at all possible or likely that a piece of copper pipe could have
a thin section which could eventually leak over a period in time in
the absence of any trauma to the pipe?

Yes. Pinholes due to impurities in the copper form pinhole corrosions is
not unknown, though I have personally never seen it.


I'm wondering, if that is
possible, whether I should replace the whole pipe, or just the piece
that is leaking.


There is another possibility. Happened to me one very hot summer when I
was tiling the kitchen.

I paused and heard a steady drip drip drip from..the cold water pipe.


Water was pouring off it.

Ok I thought, new build. Bad joint. So I turned the mains off. And
opened the cold tap. No pressure. Properly off. Drips continued.

THEN I realised I was using about a gallon an hour of water to mix tile
cement, and making the air humid as **** in the process. The cold water
pipe was kept p[permanently cold, and condensation was rampant on it!

So check for that..easiest is PROBABLY to wrap pipe in a towel. That
will insulate it a bit and stop direct airflow. If that comes off a day
later wet inside, you have a leak,. If it comes off generally a bit
damp, or dry, its condensation, and the cure is to insulate the pipe
with a bit of split foam tubing, and use foil backed plasterboard to
repair the hole you made.

If the pipe IS pinholed, replace as much as you can. Its like rotten
wood. The real cost is the labour, so might as well dump anything
suspect. Scrap copper still worth taking in for money.






Thoughts please.

Keith

Phil L wrote:
Keefiedee wrote:

Not leaking from a joint, and pipe is horizontal and is now dry on
either side of the drip now I have opened it up and got air to it all,
so I'm pretty sure it is a failure at that point. I don't think it
could be frost damage as it is not in an exposed position and wouldn't
barely be any colder than the interior of the kitchen and bathroom
are, and they were heated and thus frostproof all winter. There is a
soldered jont about 2 feet "upwind" of the leak, but that would have
been done perhaps 10 - 15 years ago - would it take that long?

Is the wall they are near an outside wall? - if so there is a hole in it and
the pipe has frozen.

I have never known copper pipe to be 'eaten' away by flux, and I seriously
doubt this could occur in 10-15 years anyway, and not without a large patch
of blue/green corrosion being visible around the leak.


It might happen in a sealed system like CH, but not in a much used cold
water feed. That will have washed any flux out a long time ago.


I've seen dozens of pipes freeze in exactly this position, between kitchen
and bathroom, and it's always the same culprit - a hole in the brickwork



I've only ever seen three pipes freeze. Oner was in my porch, sub zero
for a week. One was in my roof, left without heating in the house for 2
weeks in winter just before I demolished it, and the other was attached
to an outside tap.

Keefiedee wrote:
On Jul 25, 7:49 pm, Keefiedee wrote:
As previously mentioned, I have absolute certainty where this leak is
coming from, and it is not the waste of down the side of the bath. I
am actually watching a regular drip - drip - drip from one very
localised point on the pipe.

Can anyone give me a link to slip connectors so I can see exactly what
you're talking about please? That sounds the answer, and I won't have
to call a plumber out - just a plasterer to replace the ceiling!

Keith

Are slip connectors available as compression fittings or only
soldered?


with luck, there is enough leeway ijna compression joint to be able to
fit it without it being specifically 'slip' bit I would definitely reach
for the torch here, or cut back to somewhere that compression will work
easily.


Keith

In article
..com, Keefiedee scribeth thus
As previously mentioned, I have absolute certainty where this leak is
coming from, and it is not the waste of down the side of the bath. I
am actually watching a regular drip - drip - drip from one very
localised point on the pipe.

Can anyone give me a link to slip connectors so I can see exactly what
you're talking about please? That sounds the answer, and I won't have
to call a plumber out - just a plasterer to replace the ceiling!

Keith




Can you take a picture and post it somewhere, sometimes a Pix is worth a
thousand posts;!...
--
Tony Sayer

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Keefiedee wrote:
On Jul 25, 7:49 pm, Keefiedee wrote:
As previously mentioned, I have absolute certainty where this leak is
coming from, and it is not the waste of down the side of the bath. I
am actually watching a regular drip - drip - drip from one very
localised point on the pipe.

Can anyone give me a link to slip connectors so I can see exactly what
you're talking about please? That sounds the answer, and I won't have
to call a plumber out - just a plasterer to replace the ceiling!

Keith

Are slip connectors available as compression fittings or only
soldered?


with luck, there is enough leeway ijna compression joint to be able to fit
it without it being specifically 'slip' bit I would definitely reach for
the torch here, or cut back to somewhere that compression will work
easily.


Keith

As others have said, the proper fix is to cut out and replace. That said, if
access is difficult, that "plumbers" epoxy is remarkably effective. Comes as
a stick with the two parts, you cut off a suitable length and work it as if
it was plasticine, then stick over the hole. It won't seal while the
pressure is on, but it will seal on to wet surfaces. I've only ever used it
once (on a hot water cylinder joint, *very* inaccessible) but it survived
for years and saved me a pile of work. If your problem is a one-off, it is a
quick cheap fix. If there are potential pinholes all along the pipe just
waiting to appear, you should be replacing. Of course the only way to find
out is to just fix the current problem!

On 25 Jul,
Roger Mills wrote:

How sure are you that it's definitely the pipe itself which is leaking?
It's more likely that a joint is leaking slightly higher up, with the
water running along the outside of the pipe and dripping at the point
where you assume the leak to be. The water could even be coming from the
waste pipe.

When I had a similar problem it was the bath overflow (where it attached to
the bath) that was leaking.

I have seen copper pipe corroded through from the inside, but carrying
purified (but open to atmospheric CO2) water at high temperature and flow for
nearly two decades 24/7. Can't see it happening in domestic.

--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

On 25/07/2010 16:49, Roger Mills wrote:
On 25/07/2010 16:00, Keefiedee wrote:
Have discovered a large area of wetness in the kitchen ceiling and
down the wall. The bathroom is above - more particularly the bath
itself. There are the hot and cold feeds to the bath runniing along
parallel to the wall just above the plaster and just less than an inch
away from it, with a 4" waste pipe a couple of inches above them
running along to the stack pipe at the end of the bath.

Thought I was going to have to take the bath out to get at the
problem, but then had a brain wave and cut away the ceiling plaster
parallel to the wall in the kitchen that runs under these pipes. I
find there is a moderately slow drip coming from a point at the near
the base of the low pressure cold feed pipe to the bath (which for
some bizarre reason is 28 mm pipe). There is no sign of any trauma to
the pipe at what seems to be a very localised point of leaking, no
scratch or sign of a nail having been inadvertantly driven into the
pipe

Is it at all possible or likely that a piece of copper pipe could have
a thin section which could eventually leak over a period in time in
the absence of any trauma to the pipe? I'm wondering, if that is
possible, whether I should replace the whole pipe, or just the piece
that is leaking.

Thoughts please.

Keith


How sure are you that it's definitely the pipe itself which is leaking?
It's more likely that a joint is leaking slightly higher up, with the
water running along the outside of the pipe and dripping at the point
where you assume the leak to be. The water could even be coming from the
waste pipe.

To test this, go to your local supermarket and see if they have any blue
tissue on a roll to wipe the trolley handes and put 3 sheets in your
trolley before you do your shopping. When you get home try wiping the
pipe above where the leak is and if it is wet, the colour will darken.

Dave

"Keefiedee" wrote in message
...
Have discovered a large area of wetness in the kitchen ceiling and
down the wall. The bathroom is above - more particularly the bath
itself. There are the hot and cold feeds to the bath runniing along
parallel to the wall just above the plaster and just less than an inch
away from it, with a 4" waste pipe a couple of inches above them
running along to the stack pipe at the end of the bath.

Thought I was going to have to take the bath out to get at the
problem, but then had a brain wave and cut away the ceiling plaster
parallel to the wall in the kitchen that runs under these pipes. I
find there is a moderately slow drip coming from a point at the near
the base of the low pressure cold feed pipe to the bath (which for
some bizarre reason is 28 mm pipe). There is no sign of any trauma to
the pipe at what seems to be a very localised point of leaking, no
scratch or sign of a nail having been inadvertantly driven into the
pipe

Is it at all possible or likely that a piece of copper pipe could have
a thin section which could eventually leak over a period in time in
the absence of any trauma to the pipe? I'm wondering, if that is
possible, whether I should replace the whole pipe, or just the piece
that is leaking.

Thoughts please.

Keith

What people are saying about 'pinholes': the drawing of the pipes through a
dye can drag out any impurities into long flaws like dark scratches all down
the length of pipes. Sometimes you will see whole bundles of new pipe like
this in the 'sheds', where they - as with their timber - are not that
bothered about the quality. If you have a pipe like that it would be best
to replace the whole thing.

On the other hand, nobody has mentioned the Speedfit flexible couplings:
possibly as I can't see any 28mm ones. On the other hand there is the even
easier rubber connector and jubilee clip option: if it's good enough for
cars it ought to be fine for water in the house:
http://www.ronfell.com/re_flexible_couplings_P3.htm .

A whole new piece of copper pipe would still seem the best idea though.

S

On 25 July, 19:55, Keefiedee wrote:
On Jul 25, 7:49*pm, Keefiedee wrote:

As previously mentioned, I have absolute certainty where this leak is
coming from, and it is not the waste of down the side of the bath. *I
am actually watching a regular drip - drip - drip from one very
localised point on the pipe.

Can anyone give me a link to slip connectors so I can see exactly what
you're talking about please? *That sounds the answer, and I won't have
to call a plumber out - just a plasterer to replace the ceiling!

Keith

Are slip connectors available as compression fittings or only
soldered?

Keith

Slip connectors look exactly like normal connectors except there is no
little ridge inside the fitting. If you were stuck you could file
the ridge off an ordinary fitting with a round/half round file. They
are available as solder fittings and compression.
There's some shown on this page here.
http://www.bes.co.uk/products/147.asp

On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 20:10:24 +0100, Phil L wrote:

Keefiedee wrote:


Not leaking from a joint, and pipe is horizontal and is now dry on
either side of the drip now I have opened it up and got air to it all,
so I'm pretty sure it is a failure at that point. I don't think it
could be frost damage as it is not in an exposed position and wouldn't
barely be any colder than the interior of the kitchen and bathroom
are, and they were heated and thus frostproof all winter. There is a
soldered jont about 2 feet "upwind" of the leak, but that would have
been done perhaps 10 - 15 years ago - would it take that long?

Is the wall they are near an outside wall? - if so there is a hole in it and
the pipe has frozen.

I have never known copper pipe to be 'eaten' away by flux, and I seriously
doubt this could occur in 10-15 years anyway, and not without a large patch
of blue/green corrosion being visible around the leak.

Now, this was on a DHW pipe: in and above kitchen, approx. 50 years old,
exposed to cooking fumes all of that time. Not often hot, so condensation
could form.
Boiler fitted, DHW now on mains pressure, couple of pinhole leaks and
another one about a month later.
Pipe had been corroded through by said fumes; replaced it all with plastic.

I've seen dozens of pipes freeze in exactly this position, between kitchen
and bathroom, and it's always the same culprit - a hole in the brickwork


--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway