I am considering moving a 13A socket higher up and will need to extend
the current single spur cable.


Some questions re crimping:

I know that one should use a very good quality crimper.

I have seen instructions where it says crimp one cable first - using
half of the crimp - then insert the other half and crimp that; others
say put both cables in and just crimp once.

Is it better to use a larger crimp and have the cables inside the
crimp over-lapping - or the smallest suitable where the ends butt up
inside the crimp?

I have experimented and having cables inside the crimp over-lapping
and crimping both cables at the same time seems favourite - but is it?

Views?

(I have Googled and looked at some pages - but any link to particular
good references appreciated)

On 8 July, 10:27, JMS wrote:

I know that one should use a very good quality crimper.

"Good"quality is adequate. Once you're away from the pressed sheet
and have a crimper with a ratchet, then you're fine.


I have seen instructions where it says crimp one cable first - using
half of the crimp - then insert the other half and crimp that; others
say put both cables in and just crimp once.

Whichever. But put the individual wire ends into their own crimp, not
sharing.

On 08/07/2010 10:27, JMS wrote:


I am considering moving a 13A socket higher up and will need to extend
the current single spur cable.


Some questions re crimping:

I know that one should use a very good quality crimper.

I have seen instructions where it says crimp one cable first - using
half of the crimp - then insert the other half and crimp that; others
say put both cables in and just crimp once.

Is it better to use a larger crimp and have the cables inside the
crimp over-lapping - or the smallest suitable where the ends butt up
inside the crimp?

I have experimented and having cables inside the crimp over-lapping
and crimping both cables at the same time seems favourite - but is it?

Views?

(I have Googled and looked at some pages - but any link to particular
good references appreciated)


Maybe it depends on the crimp. The ones I'm currently using have a stop
in the middle - so the cables *cannot* overlap, and you *have* to crimp
each one separately.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 11:11:56 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:

On 08/07/2010 10:27, JMS wrote:


I am considering moving a 13A socket higher up and will need to extend
the current single spur cable.


Some questions re crimping:

I know that one should use a very good quality crimper.

I have seen instructions where it says crimp one cable first - using
half of the crimp - then insert the other half and crimp that; others
say put both cables in and just crimp once.

Is it better to use a larger crimp and have the cables inside the
crimp over-lapping - or the smallest suitable where the ends butt up
inside the crimp?

I have experimented and having cables inside the crimp over-lapping
and crimping both cables at the same time seems favourite - but is it?

Views?

(I have Googled and looked at some pages - but any link to particular
good references appreciated)


Maybe it depends on the crimp. The ones I'm currently using have a stop
in the middle - so the cables *cannot* overlap, and you *have* to crimp
each one separately.


Would you recommend them - from where please if so.

In article ,
JMS wrote:

I know that one should use a very good quality crimper.

A lever action ratchet type should be fine - you don't have to pay a
fortune for these.

I have seen instructions where it says crimp one cable first - using
half of the crimp - then insert the other half and crimp that; others
say put both cables in and just crimp once.

All the tools I've seen are for one side only.

Is it better to use a larger crimp and have the cables inside the
crimp over-lapping - or the smallest suitable where the ends butt up
inside the crimp?

A normal pre-insulated butt connector has a division in the middle so you
can't overlap the cables.

I have experimented and having cables inside the crimp over-lapping
and crimping both cables at the same time seems favourite - but is it?

Where did you get those connectors?

--
*Gaffer tape - The Force, light and dark sides - holds the universe together*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 13:48:05 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
JMS wrote:

I know that one should use a very good quality crimper.

A lever action ratchet type should be fine - you don't have to pay a
fortune for these.

I have seen instructions where it says crimp one cable first - using
half of the crimp - then insert the other half and crimp that; others
say put both cables in and just crimp once.

All the tools I've seen are for one side only.

Is it better to use a larger crimp and have the cables inside the
crimp over-lapping - or the smallest suitable where the ends butt up
inside the crimp?

A normal pre-insulated butt connector has a division in the middle so you
can't overlap the cables.

I have experimented and having cables inside the crimp over-lapping
and crimping both cables at the same time seems favourite - but is it?

Where did you get those connectors?


Maplin

JMS wrote:

I am considering moving a 13A socket higher up and will need to extend
the current single spur cable.


Some questions re crimping:

I know that one should use a very good quality crimper.

Standard ratchet crimper, e.g.

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/DVDHCR15.html

http://www.rapidonline.com/productin...catRef=85-0255

If you want to go for a branded product, then Davico DHCR15 is OK

http://www.davico-industrial.ltd.uk/...p?id=7&ref=344


I have seen instructions where it says crimp one cable first - using
half of the crimp - then insert the other half and crimp that;

Which is normal for insulated butt-splices.

others
say put both cables in and just crimp once.

Not sure what sort of crimp you're alluding to.


Is it better to use a larger crimp and have the cables inside the
crimp over-lapping - or the smallest suitable where the ends butt up
inside the crimp?

Not overlapping.


The main thing is to make sure that the crimps and the tool match.

B&Q sell (presumably Chinese made) crimps which are smaller than
standard and do *not* crimp properly with a "standard" Davico crimp
tool. You must always do a "tug test" after crimping to ensure that you
can't just pull the wire out of the crimp.

Try to avoid Chinese-made "assortment boxes".

Buy crimp lugs from a reputable supplier, such as TLC, Farnell, RS, CPC,
Rapid Online or your friendly local electrical wholesaler.

On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 10:27:35 +0100, JMS
wrote:



I am considering moving a 13A socket higher up and will need to extend
the current single spur cable.

excellent responses - many thanks to those who did

In message , JMS
writes
On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 11:11:56 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:

On 08/07/2010 10:27, JMS wrote:


I am considering moving a 13A socket higher up and will need to extend
the current single spur cable.


Some questions re crimping:
snip



Maybe it depends on the crimp. The ones I'm currently using have a stop
in the middle - so the cables *cannot* overlap, and you *have* to crimp
each one separately.


Would you recommend them - from where please if so.

Yup, the ones I have are like that. Mine came from Screwfix a few years
a go. As did the ratchet crimper. It wasn't that expensive and does the
job fine
--
Chris French

In article ,
JMS wrote:
A normal pre-insulated butt connector has a division in the middle so
you can't overlap the cables.

I have experimented and having cables inside the crimp over-lapping
and crimping both cables at the same time seems favourite - but is it?

Where did you get those connectors?


Maplin

Best to get them from an electrical wholesaler like TLC, etc. They are of
a uniform quality. I've seen some pretty crappy ones on sale at markets,
etc. But dunno Maplin ones. If they're sold as an assortment they're more
likely to be of poor quality.

--
*A boiled egg is hard to beat*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"JMS" wrote in message
...


I am considering moving a 13A socket higher up and will need to extend
the current single spur cable.


Some questions re crimping:

I know that one should use a very good quality crimper.

I have seen instructions where it says crimp one cable first - using
half of the crimp - then insert the other half and crimp that; others
say put both cables in and just crimp once.

Is it better to use a larger crimp and have the cables inside the
crimp over-lapping - or the smallest suitable where the ends butt up
inside the crimp?

I have experimented and having cables inside the crimp over-lapping
and crimping both cables at the same time seems favourite - but is it?

Views?

(I have Googled and looked at some pages - but any link to particular
good references appreciated)


Notwithstanding the good advice about crimping. Wire being pretty cheap, I
would, if possible, simply run a longer piece through. Don't trust crimps,
especially in car/bike electrics, where they really are a pain when you want
to move anything... Spose I'm just old fashioned but they always look like
a bodge to me.

S

In article ,
Spamlet wrote:
Don't trust crimps, especially in car/bike electrics, where they really
are a pain when you want to move anything... Spose I'm just old
fashioned but they always look like a bodge to me.

Those pre-insulated terminals often are in cars, etc. But the original
terminals are crimped. It's only a question of using the correct ones with
the correct tool to crimp them. Vehicle wiring products are a good source
of both.

--
*If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 8 Jul 2010 18:10:07 +0100, chris French
wrote:

In message , JMS
writes
On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 11:11:56 +0100, Roger Mills
wrote:

On 08/07/2010 10:27, JMS wrote:


I am considering moving a 13A socket higher up and will need to extend
the current single spur cable.


Some questions re crimping:
snip



Maybe it depends on the crimp. The ones I'm currently using have a stop
in the middle - so the cables *cannot* overlap, and you *have* to crimp
each one separately.


Would you recommend them - from where please if so.

Yup, the ones I have are like that. Mine came from Screwfix a few years
a go. As did the ratchet crimper. It wasn't that expensive and does the
job fine


Good - I bought the ratchet crimper from Screwfix - but (may have)
made the mistake of buying crimps from Maplin.

I did not want the big box at 20 quid plus of crimps from Screwfix (I
thought that there would be many I would never use - spade ends etc) -
but I think I will buy a selection of their smaller packets.

I have looked at mine again - the yellow ones have a internal lug in
the centre so that both cables will butt up to it - but the red and
blues don't have. Do the Screwfix red and blues have them?

In article ,
JMS wrote:
I have looked at mine again - the yellow ones have a internal lug in
the centre so that both cables will butt up to it - but the red and
blues don't have. Do the Screwfix red and blues have them?

Dunno about Screwfix, but the ones I bought from TLC do. It's not a
complete dead end, though - just designed to stop cables of the correct
size going beyond half way. Obviously so it can compress when crimped. It
looks a bit like a triangle outline.

I've seen so many poor connections with these pre-insulated terminals -
whether down to the terminal itself or the crimper - I only use ones from
a reputable source. Like an electrical wholesaler.

--
*Ah, I see the f**k-up fairy has visited us again

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
JMS wrote:
I have looked at mine again - the yellow ones have a internal lug in
the centre so that both cables will butt up to it - but the red and
blues don't have. Do the Screwfix red and blues have them?

Dunno about Screwfix, but the ones I bought from TLC do. It's not a
complete dead end, though - just designed to stop cables of the correct
size going beyond half way. Obviously so it can compress when crimped. It
looks a bit like a triangle outline.

I've seen so many poor connections with these pre-insulated terminals -
whether down to the terminal itself or the crimper - I only use ones from
a reputable source. Like an electrical wholesaler.

--
*Ah, I see the f**k-up fairy has visited us again

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


Anything wrong with just soldering?

(Also, thinking of that. We used to have some really thick plastic gloop
that we could even dip bus bars in to insulate them. But waiting for it to
dry would be slower than crimps.)

S

In article ,
"Spamlet" writes:

Anything wrong with just soldering?

It's a more skilled job than crimping, but if you are competent
at soldering, that's fine (and you'll know that you need something
other than just solder to take the mechanical stress, etc).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 9 July, 23:01, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * "Spamlet" writes:



Anything wrong with just soldering?

It's a more skilled job than crimping, but if you are competent
at soldering, that's fine (and you'll know that you need something
other than just solder to take the mechanical stress, etc).


So you may as well crimp for the mechanics, and then solder for good
measure.
I've just ordered some crimps and a ratchet crimper from TLC, to
replace some choc blocks
and insulating tape where I extended some wires for the new CU.
If crimping 3 wires of TWE, do you need to wrap the whole lot in
anything or just leave the
crimps in thin air ?
Simon.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Spamlet" writes:

Anything wrong with just soldering?

It's a more skilled job than crimping, but if you are competent
at soldering, that's fine (and you'll know that you need something
other than just solder to take the mechanical stress, etc).
--
Andrew Gabriel

Soldering wire easy peasy (except with that nasty lead free stuff). Would
have thought this was stronger than crimps - unless all the crimps I've had
to deal with have been done by people with very limp wrists. Soldering
pipes not so confident.

Used to do solderability tests once upon a time. Standard little bead of
solder on a little hot plate, then swing piece of clean wire down into bead
and measure how long it takes to close around the wire. Does not come off
in a hurry if done properly.

S

In article ,
Spamlet wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Spamlet" writes:

Anything wrong with just soldering?

It's a more skilled job than crimping, but if you are competent
at soldering, that's fine (and you'll know that you need something
other than just solder to take the mechanical stress, etc).
--
Andrew Gabriel

Soldering wire easy peasy (except with that nasty lead free stuff).
Would have thought this was stronger than crimps - unless all the
crimps I've had to deal with have been done by people with very limp
wrists. Soldering pipes not so confident.

Decent crimps require the correct tool. Soldering mains wires needs a
soldering iron larger than a normal electronic type. Probably 50 watts or
so. Soldering pipes is actually easier with a decent blowlamp - no
insulation to melt.

Used to do solderability tests once upon a time. Standard little bead of
solder on a little hot plate, then swing piece of clean wire down into
bead and measure how long it takes to close around the wire. Does not
come off in a hurry if done properly.

The correct way to solder using multicore is to apply the heat first then
the solder. Not bring the part to be soldered to already melted solder.
That way ensures a poor joint.

S

--
*Gaffer tape - The Force, light and dark sides - holds the universe together*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Spamlet wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Spamlet" writes:

Anything wrong with just soldering?

It's a more skilled job than crimping, but if you are competent
at soldering, that's fine (and you'll know that you need something
other than just solder to take the mechanical stress, etc).
--
Andrew Gabriel

Soldering wire easy peasy (except with that nasty lead free stuff).
Would have thought this was stronger than crimps - unless all the
crimps I've had to deal with have been done by people with very limp
wrists. Soldering pipes not so confident.

Decent crimps require the correct tool. Soldering mains wires needs a
soldering iron larger than a normal electronic type. Probably 50 watts or
so. Soldering pipes is actually easier with a decent blowlamp - no
insulation to melt.

Used to do solderability tests once upon a time. Standard little bead of
solder on a little hot plate, then swing piece of clean wire down into
bead and measure how long it takes to close around the wire. Does not
come off in a hurry if done properly.

The correct way to solder using multicore is to apply the heat first then
the solder. Not bring the part to be soldered to already melted solder.
That way ensures a poor joint.

I said solderability *test*.
This would be modified with various fluxes, cleaning methods, types of
solder etc,

Anyway, absolutely not the way to get a good joint is to heat first. You
must first wet/tin the soldering iron and solder it, so that the wire heats
up much more evenly and easily in a pool of solder than just on a bare
heating element.

You will know that a common way to solder circuit boards is (or was: I may
be out of date) a wave solder bath. No question of applying any more heat
than necessary to the components

S

--
*Gaffer tape - The Force, light and dark sides - holds the universe
together*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 11/07/2010 00:34, Spamlet wrote:
"Andrew wrote in message
...
In ,
writes:

Anything wrong with just soldering?

It's a more skilled job than crimping, but if you are competent
at soldering, that's fine (and you'll know that you need something
other than just solder to take the mechanical stress, etc).
--
Andrew Gabriel

Soldering wire easy peasy (except with that nasty lead free stuff).
Would
have thought this was stronger than crimps - unless all the crimps I've
had
to deal with have been done by people with very limp wrists. Soldering
pipes not so confident.

A properly done crimp is very difficult to pull apart by hand. Soldering
is fine, but tends to be harder to deploy in practical situations. The
solder itself can't be relied on for mechanical strength, so you need to
twist wires carefully. You then need to mess about with a hot iron etc in
possibly confined spaces. Plus wait the warm up and cool down times etc. A
crimp it easier to get into place where you are having to work partly by
feel with obstructed sight etc, and no risk of melting our fingers.

Used to do solderability tests once upon a time. Standard little bead of
solder on a little hot plate, then swing piece of clean wire down into
bead
and measure how long it takes to close around the wire. Does not come
off
in a hurry if done properly.

Not a good soldering technique though... The joint should be heated, and
the flux cored wire then applied to the joint once up to temperature.
Allow solder to flow into joint, remove solder wire, remove heat, allow to
cool. Having pools of molten solder sat on a hot plate will normally cause
the flux to boil off - giveing rise to poor joints.
--
Cheers,

John.

As above. Flux is only really necessary if you haven't cleaned your parts
properly (and a drop of zinc chloride will help almost anything - but not
good practice if you can help it).

I can only suggest you try it if you don't believe me. Hold your iron flat
side up. Wet it with a bead of solder. When solder is clear and shiny, dip
end of wire in flux and immediately in to bead of solder. It tins instantly.
When you've tinned both pieces of wire, hold them together and either lower
into bead or bring bead up to them held in suitable clamp. If it stays
shiny, it's done, and you won't get it apart in a hurry.

You may get away with holding plain wires onto hot surfaces to warm them up,
(even then they may turn black before your solder melts) but with more
delicate components you may well overheat the component before the wire gets
hot enough to melt your solder strand on. You melt the solder on the iron:
not the component.

S

In article ,
Spamlet wrote:
The correct way to solder using multicore is to apply the heat first then
the solder. Not bring the part to be soldered to already melted solder.
That way ensures a poor joint.

I said solderability *test*.
This would be modified with various fluxes, cleaning methods, types of
solder etc,

Anyway, absolutely not the way to get a good joint is to heat first.
You must first wet/tin the soldering iron and solder it, so that the
wire heats up much more evenly and easily in a pool of solder than just
on a bare heating element.

Nonsense. ;-) Before soldering anything you must be sure it is clean. And
apply heat first before tinning. But for most purposes tinning separately
isn't required. But if you are going to tin something it is important you
get a good reaction between the metal and solder which means getting the
flux to the joint at the same time as the solder.

You will know that a common way to solder circuit boards is (or was: I
may be out of date) a wave solder bath. No question of applying any
more heat than necessary to the components

And soldering failures are pretty common there. What is a production
technique has little relevance to DIY. And who said anything about using
more heat than was necessary?

--
*Why are they called apartments, when they're all stuck together? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Spamlet wrote:
Flux is only really necessary if you haven't cleaned your parts
properly (and a drop of zinc chloride will help almost anything - but
not good practice if you can help it).

More nonsense. Flux is always required. It prevents oxide forming when
things are heated. You cannot solder properly without it. There are
different types, though.

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Spamlet wrote:
You may get away with holding plain wires onto hot surfaces to warm them
up, (even then they may turn black before your solder melts) but with
more delicate components you may well overheat the component before the
wire gets hot enough to melt your solder strand on. You melt the solder
on the iron: not the component.

I hope you've never needed to solder anything important. Because you're
just plain wrong.

--
*Don't worry; it only seems kinky the first time.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Spamlet wrote:
You may get away with holding plain wires onto hot surfaces to warm them
up, (even then they may turn black before your solder melts) but with
more delicate components you may well overheat the component before the
wire gets hot enough to melt your solder strand on. You melt the solder
on the iron: not the component.

I hope you've never needed to solder anything important. Because you're
just plain wrong.

Indeed. One may get away with that for very small items, but for
anything larger it simply wont work.


Flux is always necessary: mostly people don't realise how little is
required though.

There is so much cored solder that it will still be present on the
bubbling tip of the iron. Which is why the above technique can work.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Spamlet wrote:
Flux is only really necessary if you haven't cleaned your parts
properly (and a drop of zinc chloride will help almost anything - but
not good practice if you can help it).

More nonsense. Flux is always required. It prevents oxide forming when
things are heated.

No: it strips way the oxide layer that forms INSTANTLY on any copper or
aluminium when exposed to the air.

You cannot solder properly without it. There are
different types, though.


Correct. Aluminium flux is particularly unpleasant stuff.

In article ,
Spamlet wrote:
You may get away with holding plain wires onto hot surfaces to warm them
up, (even then they may turn black before your solder melts) but with
more delicate components you may well overheat the component before the
wire gets hot enough to melt your solder strand on. You melt the solder
on the iron: not the component.

You really need to learn how to solder. Lots of guides on the net - but
this one should help you:-

http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/solderfaq.hem

Look at 'Now is the Time' paragraph in 'How to Solder' and note:-
'Do *not* use the iron to carry molten solder over to the joint!'

It's one of the fundamentals of good soldering.

--
*'ome is where you 'ang your @ *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Spamlet wrote:
Flux is only really necessary if you haven't cleaned your parts
properly (and a drop of zinc chloride will help almost anything - but
not good practice if you can help it).

More nonsense. Flux is always required. It prevents oxide forming when
things are heated.

No: it strips way the oxide layer that forms INSTANTLY on any copper or
aluminium when exposed to the air.

Whatever.

You cannot solder properly without it. There are
different types, though.


Correct. Aluminium flux is particularly unpleasant stuff.

No one in their right mind solders aluminium. There are better and easier
ways to do the same sort of joint.

--
*Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
You melt the solder
on the iron: not the component.

I hope you've never needed to solder anything important. Because you're
just plain wrong.

Indeed. One may get away with that for very small items, but for
anything larger it simply wont work.


Flux is always necessary: mostly people don't realise how little is
required though.

There is so much cored solder that it will still be present on the
bubbling tip of the iron. Which is why the above technique can work.

You might get a joint that sort of holds together, but is a sure way to
have problems in short order with electronics.

--
*A lot of money is tainted: 'Taint yours, and 'taint mine*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Spamlet wrote:
Flux is only really necessary if you haven't cleaned your parts
properly (and a drop of zinc chloride will help almost anything - but
not good practice if you can help it).
More nonsense. Flux is always required. It prevents oxide forming when
things are heated.

No: it strips way the oxide layer that forms INSTANTLY on any copper or
aluminium when exposed to the air.

Whatever.

You cannot solder properly without it. There are
different types, though.


Correct. Aluminium flux is particularly unpleasant stuff.

No one in their right mind solders aluminium. There are better and easier
ways to do the same sort of joint.

I beg to disagree.

I have had to solder it to make connections to raw Lithium polymer cells.

And how else can you earth your 'tinfoil' hat ;-)

It solders remarkably well with the right flux.

But the fumes are appalling.

Its way more reliable than any mechanical connection.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
You melt the solder
on the iron: not the component.
I hope you've never needed to solder anything important. Because you're
just plain wrong.

Indeed. One may get away with that for very small items, but for
anything larger it simply wont work.


Flux is always necessary: mostly people don't realise how little is
required though.

There is so much cored solder that it will still be present on the
bubbling tip of the iron. Which is why the above technique can work.

You might get a joint that sort of holds together, but is a sure way to
have problems in short order with electronics.

Totally agree, Dave. Just pointing out why it could work.

Well apologies to an otherwise very informed bunch of people, but like I
said, don't knock it till you have tried it.

I say yet again the solderability TESTS are to determine how easy it is to
solder with given delivery samples of wire, or solder, or flux, and this is
the way they were tested at Standard Telephones & Cables, where I worked in
the lab. I don't know if this was standard in other companies but that was
just one of the quality control procedures at STC.

For regular soldering purposes flux is advised, and I prefer a pot of the
stuff that looks like grease and this has lasted many years.

By far the quickest way of heating anything is to immerse it in a hot metal:
not rest it on one side of a heated surface with air all around. That way
you *will* get oxide forming on the metal you have just wasted your time
cleaning. If you apply your flux to the cleaned metal and then immerse it
directly in the solder you get an instant good shiny tin or join, with no
opportunity for oxide formation. Also, for larger joins where there isn't
enough liquid solder on the iron, for instant coverage, extra solder melts
much more easily when applied to the already melted pool than it does on any
bare metal. I don't see how, if you have done any soldering, you could have
failed to notice this. If you apply cold solder to a thin film of just
melted solder on the work piece you are likely to solidify it before it has
had a chance to flow out and you wind up with a dull dodgy joint that has to
be redone. I have repaired many such joints in circuit boards and the
easiest way to melt the old solder is with a blob of newly melted solder on
the tip of the iron. (This is also the easiest method to melt the old
solder when you want to remove a component, and have a desoldering sucker at
the ready in your other hand.)

Aluminium solder can work well - and it was being developed at STC when I
was there, and they were quite proud of it. I haven't had any desire to use
it since, as it really is rather a specialist technique. Despite developing
the aluminium solder, the preferred method of attaching the central vibrator
pin to the aluminium diaphragm in the old rocking armature phones, was a
type of hot cure Loctite glue... (Which I also had to measure - and very
boring and fumy it was.)

Fluxes can be pretty dangerous, and all the soldering stations were equipped
with fume extraction. Breathe them in at your own risk.

Anyhow,
I did not come here to argue. Try it yourselves: or not. I know what works
in my experience.

S

In article ,
Spamlet wrote:
Well apologies to an otherwise very informed bunch of people, but like I
said, don't knock it till you have tried it.

I say yet again the solderability TESTS are to determine how easy it is
to solder with given delivery samples of wire, or solder, or flux, and
this is the way they were tested at Standard Telephones & Cables, where
I worked in the lab. I don't know if this was standard in other
companies but that was just one of the quality control procedures at
STC.

Testing new products hasn't really anything to do with DIY soldering of
electric or electronic wiring.

For regular soldering purposes flux is advised, and I prefer a pot of
the stuff that looks like grease and this has lasted many years.

Everyone uses multi-core these days for the above use. It is probably more
expensive than plain solder and separate flux, but for the quantities
involved not an issue.

By far the quickest way of heating anything is to immerse it in a hot
metal: not rest it on one side of a heated surface with air all around.

Totally impractible for jointing wires. Or DIY electronics.

That way you *will* get oxide forming on the metal you have just wasted
your time cleaning. If you apply your flux to the cleaned metal and
then immerse it directly in the solder you get an instant good shiny
tin or join, with no opportunity for oxide formation.
You didn't mentioned the necessity of flux before. Quite the reverse.
Also, for larger
joins where there isn't enough liquid solder on the iron, for instant
coverage, extra solder melts much more easily when applied to the
already melted pool than it does on any bare metal. I don't see how,
if you have done any soldering, you could have failed to notice this.
If you apply cold solder to a thin film of just melted solder on the
work piece you are likely to solidify it before it has had a chance to
flow out and you wind up with a dull dodgy joint that has to be redone.

You heat the wires with the iron before applying the solder. Using a
suitably powerful iron, clean and tinned. It looks like you've been trying
to solder with one either too small or not allowed to heat properly.

I have repaired many such joints in circuit boards and the easiest way
to melt the old solder is with a blob of newly melted solder on the tip
of the iron. (This is also the easiest method to melt the old solder
when you want to remove a component, and have a desoldering sucker at
the ready in your other hand.)

A clean properly tinned iron will melt any such joint. But it must be
cleaned with a damp sponge just before applying it. Not the same need when
making new joints as the fresh solder will keep the tip tinned and clean.
If there is crud on an old joint you wish to work on best to remove that
first.

Aluminium solder can work well - and it was being developed at STC when
I was there, and they were quite proud of it. I haven't had any desire
to use it since, as it really is rather a specialist technique.
Despite developing the aluminium solder, the preferred method of
attaching the central vibrator pin to the aluminium diaphragm in the
old rocking armature phones, was a type of hot cure Loctite glue...
(Which I also had to measure - and very boring and fumy it was.)

There are brazing alloys for ally which are easier to use and far stronger
than solder - as strong as the allumimium itself. And don't need dangerous
fluxes.

Fluxes can be pretty dangerous, and all the soldering stations were
equipped with fume extraction. Breathe them in at your own risk.

You had fume extraction, but not a desolder station? However, the fumes
from multi-core solder are pretty low risk. Aggressive types are different
- but have no place in electronic or electrical work. Stick to multi-core.


Anyhow, I did not come here to argue. Try it yourselves: or not. I
know what works in my experience.

Carrying the solder to the work on the iron is a sure way of producing a
poor connection. Every single textbook in the world will tell you that.
Perhaps you never watched a wireman at work?

--
*One nice thing about egotists: they don't talk about other people.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Spamlet wrote:
Well apologies to an otherwise very informed bunch of people, but like I
said, don't knock it till you have tried it.

I say yet again the solderability TESTS are to determine how easy it is
to solder with given delivery samples of wire, or solder, or flux, and
this is the way they were tested at Standard Telephones & Cables, where
I worked in the lab. I don't know if this was standard in other
companies but that was just one of the quality control procedures at
STC.

Testing new products hasn't really anything to do with DIY soldering of
electric or electronic wiring.

For regular soldering purposes flux is advised, and I prefer a pot of
the stuff that looks like grease and this has lasted many years.

Everyone uses multi-core these days for the above use. It is probably more
expensive than plain solder and separate flux, but for the quantities
involved not an issue.

By far the quickest way of heating anything is to immerse it in a hot
metal: not rest it on one side of a heated surface with air all around.

Totally impractible for jointing wires. Or DIY electronics.

As I said to start with - though I'm beginning to wish I hadn't - no problem
at all, and I do it that way because that is how I get the best results.
And, as I also said: I would be unlikely to be extending wires in any case,
but would just put in a longer piece, as wire is cheap.


That way you *will* get oxide forming on the metal you have just wasted
your time cleaning. If you apply your flux to the cleaned metal and
then immerse it directly in the solder you get an instant good shiny
tin or join, with no opportunity for oxide formation.
You didn't mentioned the necessity of flux before. Quite the reverse.
Also, for larger
joins where there isn't enough liquid solder on the iron, for instant
coverage, extra solder melts much more easily when applied to the
already melted pool than it does on any bare metal. I don't see how,
if you have done any soldering, you could have failed to notice this.
If you apply cold solder to a thin film of just melted solder on the
work piece you are likely to solidify it before it has had a chance to
flow out and you wind up with a dull dodgy joint that has to be redone.

You heat the wires with the iron before applying the solder. Using a
suitably powerful iron, clean and tinned. It looks like you've been trying
to solder with one either too small or not allowed to heat properly.

I have repaired many such joints in circuit boards and the easiest way
to melt the old solder is with a blob of newly melted solder on the tip
of the iron. (This is also the easiest method to melt the old solder
when you want to remove a component, and have a desoldering sucker at
the ready in your other hand.)

A clean properly tinned iron will melt any such joint. But it must be
cleaned with a damp sponge just before applying it. Not the same need when
making new joints as the fresh solder will keep the tip tinned and clean.
If there is crud on an old joint you wish to work on best to remove that
first.

Aluminium solder can work well - and it was being developed at STC when
I was there, and they were quite proud of it. I haven't had any desire
to use it since, as it really is rather a specialist technique.
Despite developing the aluminium solder, the preferred method of
attaching the central vibrator pin to the aluminium diaphragm in the
old rocking armature phones, was a type of hot cure Loctite glue...
(Which I also had to measure - and very boring and fumy it was.)

There are brazing alloys for ally which are easier to use and far stronger
than solder - as strong as the allumimium itself. And don't need dangerous
fluxes.

Fluxes can be pretty dangerous, and all the soldering stations were
equipped with fume extraction. Breathe them in at your own risk.

You had fume extraction, but not a desolder station? However, the fumes
from multi-core solder are pretty low risk. Aggressive types are different
- but have no place in electronic or electrical work. Stick to multi-core.


Anyhow, I did not come here to argue. Try it yourselves: or not. I
know what works in my experience.

Carrying the solder to the work on the iron is a sure way of producing a
poor connection. Every single textbook in the world will tell you that.
Perhaps you never watched a wireman at work?

--
*One nice thing about egotists: they don't talk about other people.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Spamlet wrote:
By far the quickest way of heating anything is to immerse it in a hot
metal: not rest it on one side of a heated surface with air all
around.

Totally impractible for jointing wires. Or DIY electronics.

As I said to start with - though I'm beginning to wish I hadn't - no
problem at all, and I do it that way because that is how I get the best
results. And, as I also said: I would be unlikely to be extending wires
in any case, but would just put in a longer piece, as wire is cheap.

In the context of this thread, ie jointing mains wiring where it is
inaccessible, so only crimping or soldering conforms to regs, just how
would you immerse them in a solder pot or whatever? Fine on the workbench
for some things I suppose, but totally impractical on site as it were.

--
*If God dropped acid, would he see people?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:09:49 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Spamlet wrote:
You may get away with holding plain wires onto hot surfaces to warm them
up, (even then they may turn black before your solder melts) but with
more delicate components you may well overheat the component before the
wire gets hot enough to melt your solder strand on. You melt the solder
on the iron: not the component.

You really need to learn how to solder. Lots of guides on the net - but
this one should help you:-

http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/solderfaq.hem


Broken link

JMS wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/solderfaq.hem

Broken link

Apply common sense and replace "hem" with "htm" ...

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
JMS wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/solderfaq.hem

Broken link

Apply common sense and replace "hem" with "htm" ...

Weird. I didn't type it in manually. Let's try the same method I used again

http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/solderfaq.htm

Ah. I see what happened. My spell checker decided htm should be 'hem' and
I must have hit the wrong button. Sorry.

--
*It's not the end of the world if you can't spell armageddon.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Spamlet wrote:
By far the quickest way of heating anything is to immerse it in a hot
metal: not rest it on one side of a heated surface with air all
around.

Totally impractible for jointing wires. Or DIY electronics.

As I said to start with - though I'm beginning to wish I hadn't - no
problem at all, and I do it that way because that is how I get the best
results. And, as I also said: I would be unlikely to be extending wires
in any case, but would just put in a longer piece, as wire is cheap.

In the context of this thread, ie jointing mains wiring where it is
inaccessible, so only crimping or soldering conforms to regs, just how
would you immerse them in a solder pot or whatever? Fine on the workbench
for some things I suppose, but totally impractical on site as it were.

If you have no imagination that is not my problem. And I don't recall
anyone saying the wires in question were inaccessible in any case.

S


--
*If God dropped acid, would he see people?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 10:25:53 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

JMS wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/solderfaq.hem

Broken link

Apply common sense and replace "hem" with "htm" ...



why should you assume that everyone is an IT expert in uk.d-i-y