The problem. A nine year old son who is *desperate* to download and
play with Ubantu, for reasons unknown. Posts here suggest that Ubantu
may not be the best choice for someone who is keen to learn, but a
complete novice (with a Father who knows a little about DOS and Windows
but nothing of Linux).

Which flavour would you recommend?

We have a spare PC that he can use, without the risk of doing anything
terminal to the main PC. He talks about Linux and dual booting, but
doesn't really know much about the subject. I have a two port KVM
switch box, the idea being that he can run two PCs at once, using Linux
on one, then switching to the other standard Windows PC, to find help,
etc.

Words of wisdom will be appreciated :-)
--
Graeme

On 06/05/2010 16:00, Graeme wrote:

The problem. A nine year old son who is *desperate* to download and play
with Ubantu, for reasons unknown. Posts here suggest that Ubantu may not
be the best choice for someone who is keen to learn, but a complete
novice (with a Father who knows a little about DOS and Windows but
nothing of Linux).

Which flavour would you recommend?

We have a spare PC that he can use, without the risk of doing anything
terminal to the main PC. He talks about Linux and dual booting, but
doesn't really know much about the subject. I have a two port KVM switch
box, the idea being that he can run two PCs at once, using Linux on one,
then switching to the other standard Windows PC, to find help, etc.

Words of wisdom will be appreciated :-)

I'd say start with Ubuntu running from CD. I'd not bother with dual
booting - if necessary get hold of a 50 quid computer to run it as
primary os.

"Clive George" wrote

The problem. A nine year old son who is *desperate* to download and play
with Ubantu, for reasons unknown. Posts here suggest that Ubantu may not
be the best choice for someone who is keen to learn, but a complete
novice (with a Father who knows a little about DOS and Windows but
nothing of Linux).

Which flavour would you recommend?

We have a spare PC that he can use, without the risk of doing anything
terminal to the main PC. He talks about Linux and dual booting, but
doesn't really know much about the subject. I have a two port KVM switch
box, the idea being that he can run two PCs at once, using Linux on one,
then switching to the other standard Windows PC, to find help, etc.

Words of wisdom will be appreciated :-)

I'd say start with Ubuntu running from CD. I'd not bother with dual
booting - if necessary get hold of a 50 quid computer to run it as primary
os.

Seconded!
I have an old reclaimed Thinkpad T20 laptop and Ubuntu runs passably on that
(as the installed OS).
But as Clive points out, the beauty of Linux is that it will load and run
straight off the CD, albeit a bit more slowly.
So you and your son can investigate the new OS without installing, referring
to on-line help on second PC - purfick.

Phil

On Thu, 6 May 2010 16:00:59 +0100, Graeme
wrote:


The problem. A nine year old son who is *desperate* to download and
play with Ubantu, for reasons unknown. Posts here suggest that Ubantu
may not be the best choice for someone who is keen to learn, but a
complete novice (with a Father who knows a little about DOS and Windows
but nothing of Linux).

Which flavour would you recommend?

We have a spare PC that he can use, without the risk of doing anything
terminal to the main PC. He talks about Linux and dual booting, but
doesn't really know much about the subject. I have a two port KVM
switch box, the idea being that he can run two PCs at once, using Linux
on one, then switching to the other standard Windows PC, to find help,
etc.

Words of wisdom will be appreciated :-)


Well I'm not sure about that (wisdom) but as a long term Linux dabbler
the only one I've managed to get working across a fairly wide range of
machines and ages is ... Unbunu.

The really good thing is you don't have to commit at all (LIveCD),
commit lightly (installed from within Windows) or run side_by_side
with Windows. It's only IF (and it's still a big 'if') you / he likes
it 100% need you dedicate the whole machine to it. Even then and
assuming the PC has a Windows licence it's very easy to install
Windows in a Virtual Machine and still have Windows for the tricky
bits.

The latest machine I have here (A Tosh A300) currently has (real) XP
Home, Vista, Ubuntu 9.1 and Ubuntu 10.04 on it with other options on
the VM on either Ubuntus.

Seriously, download 9.1 and burn the iso image (I use ImgBurn, free /
easy). Boot from the CD into Ubuntu and check how much works (AN,
Sound, Video etc etc). If it all looks good, install it from within
Windows, that way if he gets bored or he screws it up you just go to
Add / Remove and uninstall it. ;-)

All the best, T i m

T i m gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

Seriously, download 9.1

(9.10 - the version number is year.month - with releases in April &
October)

No, I'd definitely go with 10.04. It's a "Long-Term Support" version, so
the intent is for it to be really stable. I've been using it as my main
OS since Beta 1 - and it's rock stable so far. The last year or so has
seen a lot of changes, and 9.10 (Karmic Koala) was not one of the best
releases. 10.04 (Lucid Lynx) is much, much better.

On 6 May 2010 15:31:44 GMT, Adrian wrote:

T i m gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

Seriously, download 9.1

(9.10 - the version number is year.month - with releases in April &
October)

At ta.

No, I'd definitely go with 10.04. It's a "Long-Term Support" version, so
the intent is for it to be really stable. I've been using it as my main
OS since Beta 1 - and it's rock stable so far. The last year or so has
seen a lot of changes, and 9.10 (Karmic Koala) was not one of the best
releases. 10.04 (Lucid Lynx) is much, much better.

Hmm, not been the case here so far I'd have to say (and I was ok with
the RC also). I have had various 'funnies' like not being able to shut
the machine down (it just takes me to a login box), not wanting to
mount a USB pen drive that mounts ok in 9.10 g and then not being
able to get into the user account properties to see why.

It does look a little more refined though.

Cheers, T i m

Graeme wrote:

The problem. A nine year old son who is *desperate* to download and
play with Ubantu, for reasons unknown. Posts here suggest that Ubantu
may not be the best choice for someone who is keen to learn, but a
complete novice (with a Father who knows a little about DOS and Windows
but nothing of Linux).

Which flavour would you recommend?

We have a spare PC that he can use, without the risk of doing anything
terminal to the main PC. He talks about Linux and dual booting, but
doesn't really know much about the subject. I have a two port KVM
switch box, the idea being that he can run two PCs at once, using Linux
on one, then switching to the other standard Windows PC, to find help, etc.

Words of wisdom will be appreciated :-)

Debian for stability, Ubuntu for latest and sometimes less than
stable..a few people seem to rate Mint., whatever that is.

The Natural Philosopher
wibbled on Thursday 06 May 2010 16:41

Graeme wrote:

The problem. A nine year old son who is *desperate* to download and
play with Ubantu, for reasons unknown. Posts here suggest that Ubantu
may not be the best choice for someone who is keen to learn, but a
complete novice (with a Father who knows a little about DOS and Windows
but nothing of Linux).

Which flavour would you recommend?

We have a spare PC that he can use, without the risk of doing anything
terminal to the main PC. He talks about Linux and dual booting, but
doesn't really know much about the subject. I have a two port KVM
switch box, the idea being that he can run two PCs at once, using Linux
on one, then switching to the other standard Windows PC, to find help,
etc.

Words of wisdom will be appreciated :-)

Debian for stability, Ubuntu for latest and sometimes less than
stable..a few people seem to rate Mint., whatever that is.

[Non serious]

Gentoo if you think Debian and Redhat are for poofs.

(Not me, but I knew someone who acted like they thought that!)

And you *must* recompile the entire system with every optimisation carefully
tweaked just for you. If it doesn't run 1% faster, you have failed!

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...


[Non serious]

Gentoo if you think Debian and Redhat are for poofs.

(Not me, but I knew someone who acted like they thought that!)

And you *must* recompile the entire system with every optimisation
carefully
tweaked just for you. If it doesn't run 1% faster, you have failed!

Obviously if its a learning exercise you must port it to some random
hardware like an iPhone or a wifi router.

Graeme
wibbled on Thursday 06 May 2010 16:00


The problem. A nine year old son who is *desperate* to download and
play with Ubantu, for reasons unknown. Posts here suggest that Ubantu
may not be the best choice for someone who is keen to learn, but a
complete novice

Which flavour would you recommend?

At 9 YO, Ubuntu is a good choice. Without prior unix experience, he's going
to have a hard time getting something "hard-assed" at the other end of the
spectrum going. Better to have something that installs nicely, then point
him in the direction of a text terminal (CTRL-ALT-F1) and encourage him to
see how much is possible without a gui - that is a godly learning
experience. Give him a hint that all config is under /etc (system) and
$HOME/.* (personal) and help him to find a usable text editor (but he needs
to ultimately learn vi to be a geek). If he's interested enough he can
figure the rest out from the Internet...



We have a spare PC that he can use, without the risk of doing anything
terminal to the main PC.

Spare PC is a good way to start - he can install over and over which is good
for the soul. Let him set up for dual boot when he's comfortable with
installation options.

He talks about Linux and dual booting, but
doesn't really know much about the subject. I have a two port KVM
switch box, the idea being that he can run two PCs at once, using Linux
on one, then switching to the other standard Windows PC, to find help,
etc.

Words of wisdom will be appreciated :-)

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

In message , Tim Watts
writes
Graeme
wibbled on Thursday 06 May 2010 16:00

The problem. A nine year old son who is *desperate* to download and
play with Ubantu

Spare PC is a good way to start - he can install over and over which is good
for the soul. Let him set up for dual boot when he's comfortable with
installation options.

I'll refrain from responding to all the messages, but do want to say a
huge thank you to everyone who replied.

Current state of play - we have downloaded Ubuntu 10.4, and will burn
shortly. Yes, ImgBurn is already on this PC :-)

One small problem. I have a KVM switch box, but had forgotten that the
Windows PC is fairly new, and only has USB for mouse and keyboard. Drat.
Just means that the KVM box is switching monitor only - each PC has
individual M & K. The keyboard is old, but works, despite having
ketchup spilled all over it, followed by a visit to the dishwasher :-)

The good news seems to be that, if we want to experiment, we can
download as many flavours of Linux as we like, the cost being limited to
a blank CD, of which we seem to have many. Strangely, or perhaps not,
we have far more PCs than people in this house.

Looking for blank CDs, I found a downloaded copy of Smoothwall 0.9.8,
which I remember playing with, but not enough to actually use.
--
Graeme

On 06/05/2010 19:33, Graeme wrote:

One small problem. I have a KVM switch box, but had forgotten that the
Windows PC is fairly new, and only has USB for mouse and keyboard. Drat.

Not a problem. Use one of these connected between that PC and the KVM
switch.

USB TO PS/2 PS2 CABLE MOUSE KEYBOARD CONVERTER ADAPTER
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/370352606138 £1.39 inc. post

Mine (not the above but similar) works faultlessly with a Dell Dimension
3100 & Belkin Omni 4-port PS/2 KVM.

--
Adrian C

In message , Adrian C
writes
On 06/05/2010 19:33, Graeme wrote:

Not a problem. Use one of these connected between that PC and the KVM
switch.

USB TO PS/2 PS2 CABLE MOUSE KEYBOARD CONVERTER ADAPTER

Thanks Adrian. Similar ordered Thursday evening, posted Friday, arrived
Saturday. All for less than a fiver.
--
Graeme

On 6 May, 16:00, Graeme wrote:
The problem. *A nine year old son who is *desperate* to download and
play with Ubantu, for reasons unknown. *Posts here suggest that Ubantu
may not be the best choice for someone who is keen to learn, but a
complete novice (with a Father who knows a little about DOS and Windows
but nothing of Linux).

Which flavour would you recommend?

Like many others have recommended, Ubuntu is a good choice. Fedora is
also very good. Both appear to work reliably across a range of
hardware.

Others have suggested using a LiveCD which is a great suggestion, but
even better, put the Live image onto a USB stick. It boots and runs
quicker, and you can save files onto the stick while running Linux,
which you couldn't do with a Live CD.

dan.

On 06/05/2010 16:00, Graeme wrote:

The problem. A nine year old son who is *desperate* to download and play
with Ubantu, for reasons unknown. Posts here suggest that Ubantu may not
be the best choice for someone who is keen to learn, but a complete
novice (with a Father who knows a little about DOS and Windows but
nothing of Linux).

Which flavour would you recommend?

We have a spare PC that he can use, without the risk of doing anything
terminal to the main PC. He talks about Linux and dual booting, but
doesn't really know much about the subject. I have a two port KVM switch
box, the idea being that he can run two PCs at once, using Linux on one,
then switching to the other standard Windows PC, to find help, etc.

Words of wisdom will be appreciated :-)

In my opinion, Ubuntu has been got at by the open source Taliban and
does not give a good experience out of the box. Linux Mint is derived
from Ubuntu and retains the old Ubuntu virtues of coming with a good
selection of software (inc Firefox and Thunderbird) even if some are not
"purer than pure".

It looks a lot nicer too.

Download a live CD from:

http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php

Another Dave

On Thu, 06 May 2010 17:54:25 +0100, Another Dave
wrote:


In my opinion, Ubuntu has been got at by the open source Taliban and
does not give a good experience out of the box.

?

Linux Mint is derived
from Ubuntu and retains the old Ubuntu virtues of coming with a good
selection of software (inc Firefox and Thunderbird) even if some are not
"purer than pure".

Could you explain what you mean etc, me not being a 'Linux person'
etc?.

It looks a lot nicer too.

I think Ubuntu looks ok. And you can change quite a bit of it if you
want (like that new max / min / restore button - default look on
10.04).


More importantly I don't remember it working as fully on most of the
machines I tried it on (if a distro of about 6 months ago would be
representative). I can't remember exactly what but I either found it
weird (how it did things) or stuff just didn't work as well as Ubuntu
at the same time. However, the same applies to several other Lini I
tried at the same time (I ended up with a stack of Live / boot CD's)
;-)

I'll pull a fresh ISO and give it another look on this A300 though.

Cheers, T i m

On 06/05/2010 18:01, Huge wrote:
On 2010-05-06, Another wrote:
On 06/05/2010 16:00, Graeme wrote:

In my opinion, Ubuntu has been got at by the open source Taliban and
does not give a good experience out of the box. Linux Mint is derived
from Ubuntu and retains the old Ubuntu virtues of coming with a good
selection of software (inc Firefox and Thunderbird)

Ubuntu comes with Firefox& Thunderbird, too.

What it doesn't come with is any "non-free" software, but you can trivially
add it.


We may be at odds here but the Live CD I tried of (admittedly) Kubuntu
9.10 did not contain any mention of Thunderbird and only an installer
for Firefox (which failed).

Mint detected my NVidia graphics card and offered to install the
non-free driver. It gave you the choice.

I've used Kubuntu 8.04 since it came out, so I'm not a beginner and I
still don't find installing non-free software a "trivial" matter.

Another Dave

On Thu, 06 May 2010 18:21:02 +0100, Another Dave
wrote:


We may be at odds here but the Live CD I tried of (admittedly) Kubuntu
9.10 did not contain any mention of Thunderbird and only an installer
for Firefox (which failed).

Ah, on the 9.1 Ubuntu LiveCD Firefox is definitely pre installed and
just 'runs'.

Mint detected my NVidia graphics card and offered to install the
non-free driver. It gave you the choice.

Ubuntu will offer to install some drivers (and does others silently).

I've used Kubuntu 8.04 since it came out, so I'm not a beginner and I
still don't find installing non-free software a "trivial" matter.

I am a beginner and you either choose the Ubuntu 'nonfree' line in
Synaptic or put this line into terminal:

sudo apt-get install ubuntu-restricted-extras

Followed by :

sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread4/install-css.sh

I think it allows you to read DVD's or summat (I didn't write those
lines, or even know if they are needed now, I just Google and Pasted
them). ;-)

I do agree though, finding why stuff didn't work then finding how to
make it work the first time round wasn't 'trivial'.

Cheers, T i m

On 06/05/2010 18:51, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 06 May 2010 18:21:02 +0100, Another
wrote:


I am a beginner and you either choose the Ubuntu 'nonfree' line in
Synaptic or put this line into terminal:

sudo apt-get install ubuntu-restricted-extras

Followed by :

sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread4/install-css.sh

I think it allows you to read DVD's or summat (I didn't write those
lines, or even know if they are needed now, I just Google and Pasted
them). ;-)

I do agree though, finding why stuff didn't work then finding how to
make it work the first time round wasn't 'trivial'.

Cheers, T i m

The OP is talking about a 9 year old. You are talking about a
"terminal". What does that mean?

Another Dave

Another Dave gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

The OP is talking about a 9 year old. You are talking about a
"terminal". What does that mean?

Applications - Accessories - Terminal.

On Thu, 06 May 2010 22:11:09 +0100, Another Dave wrote:


The OP is talking about a 9 year old.

A 9yr old that sounds like he's keen.

You are talking about a
"terminal". What does that mean?

That's like the command prompt in Windows and something he will find out
about pretty quickly. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Mint Linux / Pan ;-)

Another Dave
wibbled on Thursday 06 May 2010 22:11

On 06/05/2010 18:51, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 06 May 2010 18:21:02 +0100, Another
wrote:


I am a beginner and you either choose the Ubuntu 'nonfree' line in
Synaptic or put this line into terminal:

sudo apt-get install ubuntu-restricted-extras

Followed by :

sudo /usr/share/doc/libdvdread4/install-css.sh

I think it allows you to read DVD's or summat (I didn't write those
lines, or even know if they are needed now, I just Google and Pasted
them). ;-)

I do agree though, finding why stuff didn't work then finding how to
make it work the first time round wasn't 'trivial'.

Cheers, T i m

The OP is talking about a 9 year old. You are talking about a
"terminal". What does that mean?

So? Back in the 80's, 9 year olds could hack around with far more basic kit.
They're not necessarily stupid unless you encourage them to be ;-

PS Terminal, aka dumb serial terminal on old mainframes. Well, linux behaves
like "old mainframes" (but it does much more). You could stick an old VT100
on it and it would look like something out of the late 70's. But you also
get virtual dumb terminal modes directly from the screen and keyboard on
aPC (linux general has around 5 or 6 virtual consoles set up on CTRL-ALT-F1
to F6) and even in windows mode (X) you just run a little terminal program
to get a "dumb terminal in a window".

Think DOS box on MS windows.

It's good to know, because that's all you get if you boot the system without
any disks mounted read-write in order to fix some serious problem (unlike a
DOS box which is rather less useful).


Another Dave

Another Tim.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Another Dave gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

We may be at odds here but the Live CD I tried of (admittedly) Kubuntu
9.10 did not contain any mention of Thunderbird and only an installer
for Firefox (which failed).

I'm not altogether surprised that you can't install onto a liveCD
session. The default mail client on Ubuntu is Evolution (I'm sure it's
lovely, I just prefer T'bird), so that's what you'll get on a liveCD
session.

Default browser is Firefox, though - even on Kubuntu (the difference
being KDE, rather than Gnome, as the desktop manager)

Huge gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

Mint detected my NVidia graphics card and offered to install the
non-free driver. It gave you the choice.

Ubuntu detected my ATI Radeon graphics card and offered to install the
non-free driver. It gave me the choice.

Likewise here, with nVidia.

In fact, on my other laptop, Ubuntu 10.04 fully supports the nVidia
graphics card which is totally unsupported by Win7...

On May 6, 4:00*pm, Graeme wrote:
The problem. *A nine year old son who is *desperate* to download and
play with Ubantu, for reasons unknown. *Posts here suggest that Ubantu
may not be the best choice for someone who is keen to learn, but a
complete novice (with a Father who knows a little about DOS and Windows
but nothing of Linux).

Which flavour would you recommend?

We have a spare PC that he can use, without the risk of doing anything
terminal to the main PC. *He talks about Linux and dual booting, but
doesn't really know much about the subject. *I have a two port KVM
switch box, the idea being that he can run two PCs at once, using Linux
on one, then switching to the other standard Windows PC, to find help,
etc.

Words of wisdom will be appreciated :-)


I vote for linux mint. Its worth dling a few versions of it, if one
doesnt fire up just try another. Mint is an ubuntu derivative.

If the box is old enough, eg pentium 2, you'd need something a lot
lighter than ubuntu, such as DSL or puppy linux.


NT

On 06/05/10 16:00, Graeme wrote:

The problem. A nine year old son who is *desperate* to download and play
with Ubantu, for reasons unknown. Posts here suggest that Ubantu may not
be the best choice for someone who is keen to learn, but a complete
novice (with a Father who knows a little about DOS and Windows but
nothing of Linux).

Which flavour would you recommend?

We have a spare PC that he can use, without the risk of doing anything
terminal to the main PC. He talks about Linux and dual booting, but
doesn't really know much about the subject. I have a two port KVM switch
box, the idea being that he can run two PCs at once, using Linux on one,
then switching to the other standard Windows PC, to find help, etc.

Words of wisdom will be appreciated :-)

Although it looks confusing to an outsider you shouldn't worry too much
about which version. Ubuntu is the latest mainstream distro to release a
new version and that's as good as any other criterion for choosing. It
helps that it's also a relatively newbie-friendly system. You should
encourage him to try several others in due course.

Running Linux in a separate machine is preferable to dual-booting
because that's a bit complicated to fix if it goes pear-shaped.

The other criterion that I might consider using is the availability of a
local expert who would be available to help out. If you have one of
those available then choosing whatever system they are familiar with
could be a good choice.


--
Bernard Peek

In message , Bernard Peek
writes
On 06/05/10 16:00, Graeme wrote:

Words of wisdom will be appreciated :-)

Although it looks confusing to an outsider you shouldn't worry too much
about which version. Ubuntu is the latest mainstream distro to release
a new version and that's as good as any other criterion for choosing.
It helps that it's also a relatively newbie-friendly system. You should
encourage him to try several others in due course.

Excellent, thank you. I will certainly try Mint, as recommended by
Another Dave.

Running Linux in a separate machine is preferable to dual-booting
because that's a bit complicated to fix if it goes pear-shaped.

OK. The machine we're using already has XP installed, and we're running
Ubuntu from the CD. Next step is to partition the hard drive, using
Gparted, but that is new territory. However, should things go wrong,
loss of the XP installation will not matter too much, as there is no
data there.

The other criterion that I might consider using is the availability of
a local expert who would be available to help out.

That, sadly, is what we're lacking. We live in a village, and I'm sure
there must be someone here using Linux, but I have not found him yet.

TBH, I'm still not entirely sure WHY we want to play with Linux, or what
the advantages are - which will probably open the floodgates :-)

Yes, it is running, and we can access the web, and doubtless do other
things, but, apart from the often discussed security implications, why
would we use Linux?
--
Graeme

Graeme wrote:
In message , Bernard Peek
writes
On 06/05/10 16:00, Graeme wrote:

Words of wisdom will be appreciated :-)

Although it looks confusing to an outsider you shouldn't worry too
much about which version. Ubuntu is the latest mainstream distro to
release a new version and that's as good as any other criterion for
choosing. It helps that it's also a relatively newbie-friendly system.
You should encourage him to try several others in due course.

Excellent, thank you. I will certainly try Mint, as recommended by
Another Dave.

Running Linux in a separate machine is preferable to dual-booting
because that's a bit complicated to fix if it goes pear-shaped.

OK. The machine we're using already has XP installed, and we're running
Ubuntu from the CD. Next step is to partition the hard drive, using
Gparted, but that is new territory. However, should things go wrong,
loss of the XP installation will not matter too much, as there is no
data there.

The other criterion that I might consider using is the availability of
a local expert who would be available to help out.

That, sadly, is what we're lacking. We live in a village, and I'm sure
there must be someone here using Linux, but I have not found him yet.

TBH, I'm still not entirely sure WHY we want to play with Linux, or what
the advantages are - which will probably open the floodgates :-)

Yes, it is running, and we can access the web, and doubtless do other
things, but, apart from the often discussed security implications, why
would we use Linux?
speed, cost, security and a deep seated hatred of Microsoft :-)

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
Graeme wrote:

why would we use Linux?

speed, cost, security and a deep seated hatred of Microsoft :-)

grin
--
Graeme

Graeme writes:

Yes, it is running, and we can access the web, and doubtless do other
things, but, apart from the often discussed security implications, why
would we use Linux?

This is uk.d-i-y remember.

Why would we want to take an alarm clock to pieces?
Why would we want to run a 1972 Land-Rover?
Why would we have a set of security Torx screwdrivers in the toolkit?
Why do we have boxes of springs in the shed that "might come in useful
one day"?
Why do we read Axminster/MachineMart catalogues cover to cover?

MS (and to a greater extent Apple) has a "Big Brother knows best, now
don't worry your pretty little head about it" attitude.

Linux is more "here's a big bag of bits. Have fun. If you break
it you get to keep all the pieces".

For an inquisitive 9 year old, many components of a Linux distribution
might be a bit too complicated, but if you want to poke around in the
innards there is nothing to stop you.

You get all the tools free - compilers, interpreters. Back on the
languages thread, have a look at KTurtle - based on Logo.

There are plenty of people around willing to help, too. Have a look on
http://lug.org.uk/ to see if there is a group near you.

--
I'm looking for a job. CV at http://www.wylie.me.uk/static/cv.html
Unix/Linux/C/Internet/embedded and lots more. UK:Bradford/Manchester

Alan J. Wylie http://www.wylie.me.uk/

On Sun, 9 May 2010 21:07:00 +0100, Graeme
wrote:

OK. The machine we're using already has XP installed, and we're running
Ubuntu from the CD. Next step is to partition the hard drive, using
Gparted, but that is new territory. However, should things go wrong,
loss of the XP installation will not matter too much, as there is no
data there.


May I suggest the next step is actually running Ubuntu within Windows.

Windows-based Ubuntu Installer:
If you put the CD in whilst in Windows you get a menu pop up (wubi.exe
on the CD) and the second option is to 'Install Inside Windows".

This has several advantages.

You create some space on the std Windows drive so you don't have to
play with partitions (assuming you have some space etc).

You can uninstall Ubuntu with Add / Remove.

You don't have to muck about with Linux boot loaders (that can get a
bit tricky). You just get a typical Windows multi boot menu that you
can play with (set default OS and timeouts etc) in Windows.

AFAIK in use it looks and works like std Ubuntu (I'm not sure if it
fully but don't know).

Just though it might be worth a mention / reminder. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 06 May 2010 16:00:59 +0100, Graeme wrote:

The problem. A nine year old son who is *desperate* to download and
play with Ubantu, for reasons unknown.

Find out.

Does he want to learn how Linux works, or does he want to just dive in
and use something that's relatively painless to get up and running but
isn't Windows?

If the former, something like Slackware. If the latter, something like
Ubuntu.

(with a Father who knows a little about DOS and Windows but nothing
of Linux).

It all depends on your type of mind, I think. I tend to like stuff that's
clear and concise and just does one task rather than trying to do a
million things at once; I got started with SLS in 1993 (which later
became Slackware) and it all just Made Sense - all the various bits had
well-defined jobs, configuration was quick and easy and not at all
confusing.

These days I look at something like Ubuntu, and I just don't get on with
it - everything seems unwieldy and bloated and confusing to me (in other
words, it retains many of the faults of MS Windows). It's the wrong
choice for me, but that doesn't necessarily make it bad...

We have a spare PC that he can use, without the risk of doing anything
terminal to the main PC. He talks about Linux and dual booting, but
doesn't really know much about the subject. I have a two port KVM
switch box, the idea being that he can run two PCs at once, using Linux
on one, then switching to the other standard Windows PC, to find help,
etc.

Other options are to use the windows box as a remote GUI - or, if he just
wants to learn Linux/UNIX, don't even bother with the GUI at all and just
telnet or ssh to the Linux machine from the windows one via a DOS window.

cheers

Jules

On Fri, 7 May 2010 12:56:05 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
wrote:


These days I look at something like Ubuntu, and I just don't get on with
it - everything seems unwieldy and bloated and confusing to me (in other
words, it retains many of the faults of MS Windows). It's the wrong
choice for me, but that doesn't necessarily make it bad...


It's funny, I installed the Mint flavour of Ubuntu yesterday and
whilst it all worked fairly well it seems more confusing than Ubuntu.

Maybe it's because I'm more used to the layout of Ubuntu and when I'm
in Liniux I'm not thinking Windows / OSXand Mint seems / looks more
like Windows than Ubuntu does.

However, when it comes to connecting to stuff and making it work it
(or more probably I) don't seem to have that much luck.

Like, I've spent a couple of days trying to get a Freecom USB DTV
stick working under Ubuntu / Mint and so far have failed. It works on
the same machine under X?/Vista 'easily'. Same with my new Fuji Z53
camera. Plug it into Windows and it 'just works', Linux can't even see
it?

This was a similar experience with OSX. It generally works well
enough, if it works at all. If it doesn't my only reliable way out has
been to go out and buy expressly OSX / Linux friendly kit. Not always
possible or affordable.

For yer typical 'youth' user Ubuntu does Facebook, general IM, plays
music and can sync with yer iPod (if not the Apple iTunes store) and
isn't typically the same risk to bad things as an unprotected Windows
machine (often unprotected because they can't be bothered to do the
updates nor pay to have it fixed when it goes belly up).

So, whilst I keep giving this Linux stuff a go (and think it's really
coming along now) it's not yet a Windows replacement for me.

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
On Fri, 7 May 2010 12:56:05 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
wrote:


These days I look at something like Ubuntu, and I just don't get on with
it - everything seems unwieldy and bloated and confusing to me (in other
words, it retains many of the faults of MS Windows). It's the wrong
choice for me, but that doesn't necessarily make it bad...


It's funny, I installed the Mint flavour of Ubuntu yesterday and
whilst it all worked fairly well it seems more confusing than Ubuntu.

Maybe it's because I'm more used to the layout of Ubuntu and when I'm
in Liniux I'm not thinking Windows / OSXand Mint seems / looks more
like Windows than Ubuntu does.

However, when it comes to connecting to stuff and making it work it
(or more probably I) don't seem to have that much luck.

Like, I've spent a couple of days trying to get a Freecom USB DTV
stick working under Ubuntu / Mint and so far have failed. It works on
the same machine under X?/Vista 'easily'. Same with my new Fuji Z53
camera. Plug it into Windows and it 'just works', Linux can't even see
it?


That's slightly non trivial.

I've got a Happauge in mine, and it does work, but only with totem-xine
... but the latest kernels did include drivers that understood it.



This was a similar experience with OSX. It generally works well
enough, if it works at all. If it doesn't my only reliable way out has
been to go out and buy expressly OSX / Linux friendly kit. Not always
possible or affordable.


Its a bit better with Linux. Sometimes a limited functionality is
achievable.

For yer typical 'youth' user Ubuntu does Facebook, general IM, plays
music and can sync with yer iPod (if not the Apple iTunes store) and
isn't typically the same risk to bad things as an unprotected Windows
machine (often unprotected because they can't be bothered to do the
updates nor pay to have it fixed when it goes belly up).

So, whilst I keep giving this Linux stuff a go (and think it's really
coming along now) it's not yet a Windows replacement for me.


It never will be if you want latest hardware plug and play. However that
card SHOULD work.

if you want to try, switch the problem to comp.os.linux.misc, and lets
see what may be done.

Or have a look here

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=990998

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 07 May 2010 14:43:31 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Like, I've spent a couple of days trying to get a Freecom USB DTV
stick working under Ubuntu / Mint and so far have failed. It works on
the same machine under X?/Vista 'easily'. Same with my new Fuji Z53
camera. Plug it into Windows and it 'just works', Linux can't even see
it?


That's slightly non trivial.

It is.

I've got a Happauge in mine, and it does work, but only with totem-xine
.. but the latest kernels did include drivers that understood it.

I think this (Ubuntu) sees the dongle as the LED only went on after it
had downloaded the restricted drivers and a channel scan does bring up
a batch of progs. It's just when I start Kaffeine Digital TV it
gives me a:

Cannot find demux plugin for MRL
"fifo:/home/tim/.kde/share/apps/kaffeine/dvbpipe.m2t"

whatever that means.


This was a similar experience with OSX. It generally works well
enough, if it works at all. If it doesn't my only reliable way out has
been to go out and buy expressly OSX / Linux friendly kit. Not always
possible or affordable.


Its a bit better with Linux. Sometimes a limited functionality is
achievable.

This Mac Mini is mainly running XP and all my (sometimes old /
bizarre) hardware works. The same machine booted into OSX and I have
to miss out on some hardware and software (like my Voda Mobile BB
dongle 'works' under OSX but because I don't think there is an app for
that I can't just click on a 'Check Credit' button. Same with Linux of
course.


So, whilst I keep giving this Linux stuff a go (and think it's really
coming along now) it's not yet a Windows replacement for me.


It never will be if you want latest hardware plug and play. However that
card SHOULD work.

I'm sure it's partly my lack of Linux experience but it *is*
frustrating when I can boot my Tosh A300 Lappy in XP or (even!) Vista
and everything works. All starts well with (say) Ubuntu, it sees all
the built in hardware (better than Windows in fact) then fails by not
(easily) working this tuner or seeing a 'digital camera' (of all
things). Then I can get my WHS to run backups, can't print to my Samba
print server, etc etc. I can't even use XP under VirtualBox because I
can't get it to see the USB devices. ;-(

Now I dare say that is this was 100% OSX or Linux then I wouldn't have
many of those inter connectivity issues but there is a good reason
I've been running Windows for the last 20 years (even if it is as the
LCD).

if you want to try, switch the problem to comp.os.linux.misc, and lets
see what may be done.

Ok, thanks, I may well do.

Or have a look here

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=990998

That looked interesting as well, thanks. However (because I don't know
enough) I'm always a bit worried when stuff doesn't explicitly mention
my OS version and hardware (the hardware looks right on the link
though). I say that because it's quite possible a later release of the
OS already caters for my hardware but something else is wrong (it
could be simple / trivial) and my blind stumbled attempts to 'fix' a
problem stand a good chance of making things worse. Luckily, when this
happens (and it often does) I have no data on the Linux installs so
I'm happy to use a sledge-hammer to crack the nut and re-install from
scratch.

He trouble with many 'linux people' is they have forgotten what it's
like to be a total noob and even the most simple and basic instruction
can fail at the first attempt. A classic example of that being told to
exit a particular file and I've actually found, opened and edited the
file but can't save it because I don't have the right 'permissions'.

And not all of us want to 'learn_all_about' this sort of thing. We
just want to try something else and at a level we are used to (ie, via
a GUI and with most stuff working / being supported directly). The fun
being 'a change is as good as a rest'. Most of us don't mind getting
the jack out now and again but don't expect to have to re-weld it just
to make it work! ;-)

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
On Fri, 07 May 2010 14:43:31 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Like, I've spent a couple of days trying to get a Freecom USB DTV
stick working under Ubuntu / Mint and so far have failed. It works on
the same machine under X?/Vista 'easily'. Same with my new Fuji Z53
camera. Plug it into Windows and it 'just works', Linux can't even see
it?

That's slightly non trivial.

It is.
I've got a Happauge in mine, and it does work, but only with totem-xine
.. but the latest kernels did include drivers that understood it.

I think this (Ubuntu) sees the dongle as the LED only went on after it
had downloaded the restricted drivers and a channel scan does bring up
a batch of progs. It's just when I start Kaffeine Digital TV it
gives me a:

Cannot find demux plugin for MRL
"fifo:/home/tim/.kde/share/apps/kaffeine/dvbpipe.m2t"

whatever that means.


Try totem-xine media player.

Worked for me.


I'm sure it's partly my lack of Linux experience but it *is*
frustrating when I can boot my Tosh A300 Lappy in XP or (even!) Vista
and everything works. All starts well with (say) Ubuntu, it sees all
the built in hardware (better than Windows in fact) then fails by not
(easily) working this tuner or seeing a 'digital camera' (of all
things).

Odd. USB camareas usually 'just work' - they are, after all simply USB
disk drives as far as teh computer is concerned.


Then I can get my WHS to run backups, can't print to my Samba
print server, etc etc.


Why use a samba print server at all? That's a windows hack.

If you have a printer attached to a linux server, then use CUPS to talk
to CUPS direct.




I can't even use XP under VirtualBox because I
can't get it to see the USB devices. ;-(


Download the proper version from Sun. The open source doesn't have USB
enabled.

Now I dare say that is this was 100% OSX or Linux then I wouldn't have
many of those inter connectivity issues but there is a good reason
I've been running Windows for the last 20 years (even if it is as the
LCD).
if you want to try, switch the problem to comp.os.linux.misc, and lets
see what may be done.

Ok, thanks, I may well do.
Or have a look here

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=990998

That looked interesting as well, thanks. However (because I don't know
enough) I'm always a bit worried when stuff doesn't explicitly mention
my OS version and hardware (the hardware looks right on the link
though). I say that because it's quite possible a later release of the
OS already caters for my hardware but something else is wrong (it
could be simple / trivial) and my blind stumbled attempts to 'fix' a
problem stand a good chance of making things worse. Luckily, when this
happens (and it often does) I have no data on the Linux installs so
I'm happy to use a sledge-hammer to crack the nut and re-install from
scratch.

He trouble with many 'linux people' is they have forgotten what it's
like to be a total noob and even the most simple and basic instruction
can fail at the first attempt. A classic example of that being told to
exit a particular file and I've actually found, opened and edited the
file but can't save it because I don't have the right 'permissions'.


Yes. But these things can be tackled slowly and carefully. Its not a
reason to not use the stuff.


And not all of us want to 'learn_all_about' this sort of thing. We
just want to try something else and at a level we are used to (ie, via
a GUI and with most stuff working / being supported directly). The fun
being 'a change is as good as a rest'. Most of us don't mind getting
the jack out now and again but don't expect to have to re-weld it just
to make it work! ;-)


Point accepted. Despite having used *nix for years, I never wanted it on
my desktop, until really I got fed up with windows and decided to take
the plunge. The fact that its taken me about 2 years to get to 90% of
what I want, with a few issues I can live with, is the downside...Linux
is not as plug and play as one could like, and, indeed, making it that
way is to an extent destroying some of what makes it good.

However, it keeps on getting better.

And I have to say, going back to windows feels like a backward step
these days.

I tried OS-X and Mac, but the cost..the cost..everything costs, and
there is almost no free software. And when it breaks, it breaks badly -
beyond repair sometimes.

Cheers, T i m

In message , T i m
writes

And not all of us want to 'learn_all_about' this sort of thing. We
just want to try something else and at a level we are used to (ie, via
a GUI and with most stuff working / being supported directly). The fun
being 'a change is as good as a rest'. Most of us don't mind getting
the jack out now and again but don't expect to have to re-weld it just
to make it work! ;-)

My philosophy in a nutshell :-)
--
Graeme

In message , Jules Richardson
writes
On Thu, 06 May 2010 16:00:59 +0100, Graeme wrote:

The problem. A nine year old son who is *desperate* to download and
play with Ubantu, for reasons unknown.

Find out.

Indeed. I'm not sure that he knows. This post is in danger of
wandering off on a tangent. Son is addicted to his PC and Xbox, and
spends hours fiddling, watching tuition type films on YouTube,
experimenting, and generally poking around, but without any real sense
of purpose. That is not necessarily a bad thing, as he is learning all
the time. I suspect that he has come across references to Ubuntu, and
just wants to know more. Again, I see that as good.

Does he want to learn how Linux works, or does he want to just dive in
and use something that's relatively painless to get up and running but
isn't Windows?

Probably the latter.

(with a Father who knows a little about DOS and Windows but nothing
of Linux).

It all depends on your type of mind, I think. I tend to like stuff that's
clear and concise and just does one task rather than trying to do a
million things at once; I got started with SLS in 1993 (which later
became Slackware) and it all just Made Sense - all the various bits had
well-defined jobs, configuration was quick and easy and not at all
confusing.

OK. Going back a step, his only interest seems to be software based.
I'm not sure that he would even know how to connect the usual plugs to
the back of a PC. He has certainly not looked inside one, and I have
not encouraged him to - I don't want him accidentally touching the wrong
parts, but perhaps I'm over cautious.

Other options are to use the windows box as a remote GUI - or, if he just
wants to learn Linux/UNIX, don't even bother with the GUI at all and just
telnet or ssh to the Linux machine from the windows one via a DOS window.

I wonder whether starting with DOS is a good idea. My first real
exposure to PCs was an ancient Apricot, running their version of DOS
1.something, from memory. I learned a lot, just playing with it, and
writing simple batch files. I still have a 386 somewhere, with DOS 3.3
and W3.1 installed, and should perhaps encourage him to play with that.
--
Graeme

On 09/05/10 21:31, Graeme wrote:

OK. Going back a step, his only interest seems to be software based. I'm
not sure that he would even know how to connect the usual plugs to the
back of a PC. He has certainly not looked inside one, and I have not
encouraged him to - I don't want him accidentally touching the wrong
parts, but perhaps I'm over cautious.

Probably. All of the high-voltage circuitry is in the power-supply which
is a sealed unit inside the case. Poking around with a screwdriver might
wreck the power supply or the motherboard and create a few sparks but
won't hurt him. PC power supplies can deliver up to 50A but at no more
than 12v.


Other options are to use the windows box as a remote GUI - or, if he just
wants to learn Linux/UNIX, don't even bother with the GUI at all and just
telnet or ssh to the Linux machine from the windows one via a DOS window.

I wonder whether starting with DOS is a good idea. My first real
exposure to PCs was an ancient Apricot, running their version of DOS
1.something, from memory. I learned a lot, just playing with it, and
writing simple batch files. I still have a 386 somewhere, with DOS 3.3
and W3.1 installed, and should perhaps encourage him to play with that.

No, DOS is too limited and too reliant on the CLI.


--
Bernard Peek

Graeme wrote:
The problem. A nine year old son who is *desperate* to download and
play with Ubantu, for reasons unknown. Posts here suggest that Ubantu
may not be the best choice for someone who is keen to learn,

Ubuntu will be fine - get a corporate surplus desktop for £50 and let him
play.