On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 23:11:27 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

"Dave" wrote in message
...

Perhaps that is why 2 EU guvmints have flown an aircraft each to decide
what the dust can do to the turbine part at the back of the engine.
It's a simple test to find out.

They do have experience of flying through such a cloud. A BA jumbo lost
all four RB211 engines when it flew through one. They actually managed
to restart them after they had fallen a few thousand meters but they
were lucky.

Yes, and they only managed to do so because (a) they were at cruising
altitude when they went into the cloud and (b) they came out of the
cloud in time. They basically had to 'bump start' the engines to light
them up. Hardly risks to take on this occasion.

The engines were write offs as was the paintwork and windows. I doubt if
the passengers would be prepared to pay for new engines just to go on
holiday.

Quite right!
--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 21:56:02 +0100, Dave
wrote:

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Nightjar \"cpb\"@"
"insertmysurnamehere saying something like:

There is a problem, in that most of the aircraft needed are already
grounded in Europe.

Which is another madness.
Most of the needed aircraft could be flown to the west well under
20Kfeet and then go higher once clear of Ireland.

Perhaps that is why 2 EU guvmints have flown an aircraft each to decide
what the dust can do to the turbine part at the back of the engine.
It's a simple test to find out.


Netherlands and Germany?

The German test may have been considered a success because earlier
this evening there were several flights that left Frankfurt for
destinations on the other side of the Atlantic.

Didn't British Airways also fly an aircraft from London to Cardiff?

Bruce wrote:
On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 21:56:02 +0100, Dave
wrote:

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Nightjar \"cpb\"@"
"insertmysurnamehere saying something like:

There is a problem, in that most of the aircraft needed are already
grounded in Europe.
Which is another madness.
Most of the needed aircraft could be flown to the west well under
20Kfeet and then go higher once clear of Ireland.
Perhaps that is why 2 EU guvmints have flown an aircraft each to decide
what the dust can do to the turbine part at the back of the engine.
It's a simple test to find out.


Netherlands and Germany?

The German test may have been considered a success because earlier
this evening there were several flights that left Frankfurt for
destinations on the other side of the Atlantic.

That's god news then.

Dave

Air France, 2 German Airlines, Dutch Airline and BA achieved
successful test flights.

An issue is the density of ash - below a certain level it may be
immaterial.

I suspect the real issue is the move to 2 turbines from 4...
#1 - reliability calculations for 2 turbines in place of 4 do not
include ash
#2 - high altitude may be critical for efficiency with 2 large high
bypass turbines

The 767 has a very high rate of climb to get to cruise altitude as
quickly as possible. Burning fuel at low altitude may not put it in
the drink, but may well require surcharges.

The successful test flights did not say at what altitude they were
performed.

In message , "dennis@home"
writes


"Dave" wrote in message
...

Perhaps that is why 2 EU guvmints have flown an aircraft each to
decide what the dust can do to the turbine part at the back of the
engine.
It's a simple test to find out.


They do have experience of flying through such a cloud.

A BA jumbo lost all four RB211 engines when it flew through one.
They actually managed to restart them after they had fallen a few
thousand meters but they were lucky.

Yes dennis - I was underneath it (give or take a couple of hundred
miles) when it happened

The engines were write offs as was the paintwork and windows.
I doubt if the passengers would be prepared to pay for new engines just
to go on holiday.

They could fly turbo jets at lower altitudes to airports where jets
could take over.


Which are suddenly going to appear from ... where ?

Likewise the jets, clue - they are currently stranded on the ground

--
geoff

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 23:11:27 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

"Dave" wrote in message
...

Perhaps that is why 2 EU guvmints have flown an aircraft each to decide
what the dust can do to the turbine part at the back of the engine.
It's a simple test to find out.


They do have experience of flying through such a cloud.
A BA jumbo lost all four RB211 engines when it flew through one.
They actually managed to restart them after they had fallen a few thousand
meters but they were lucky.
The engines were write offs as was the paintwork and windows.


I'm not sure that the 1982 BA 747 Jakarta incident is all that
relevant. The BA plane flew through very thick ash that was close to,
or part of the plume of ash coming out of an erupting volcano.

Surely the ash concentrations in the UK's airspace now are orders of
magnitude less?

I have no knowledge of the risks involved but would have expected that
a risk analysis would take proper account of the ash concentration.

Meanwhile, as a photographer I am grateful for the ash-enhanced
quality of light, especially in the evening. Those lucky enough to
live on western coasts will be treated to some spectacular sunsets!

On 18 Apr, 13:51, TheOldFellow wrote:
Anyone taking bets on when flights will resume?

Time to get the old Piston-engine Aeroplanes out. I blame the Americans
and their Jet Airplanes.

The high pitched whine you can hear is Frank Whittle spinning in his
grave. I think he got a pittance for his efforts
.. And the then Labour Goverment gave a bunch of RR engines to the
Soviet Union. Stalion couldn't believe their stupidity.

If no-one is buying aviation fuel, has the price of domestic heating
oil dived like a gliding 747 (or do domestic boilers all use gas-oil/
red diesel)?
How much can they store, or do they have to stop refining the crude
stuff?

dennis@home wrote:


"Dave" wrote in message
...

Perhaps that is why 2 EU guvmints have flown an aircraft each to
decide what the dust can do to the turbine part at the back of the
engine.
It's a simple test to find out.


They do have experience of flying through such a cloud.
A BA jumbo lost all four RB211 engines when it flew through one.

Piloted by Captain Moody, from whom I bought an aircraft once.

They actually managed to restart them after they had fallen a few
thousand meters but they were lucky.

It was not a fall, but a deliberate fast descent to a level where oxygen
was not needed - one of the crew's oxygen masks was broken - and where
engine restart procedures might be expected to work, which they did.

Colin Bignell

D
Low level flight, around an airport and we have lots, is restricted to
aircraft in a holding pattern for prep for landing. Not a good idea for
crashing into each other.


Then cut the flights down to maybe 30% and have no holding patterns.


Dave

Steve Walker wrote:
On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 14:18:52 +0100, Bruce wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 07:51:47 -0500, TheOldFellow
wrote:
Anyone taking bets on when flights will resume?
Time to get the old Piston-engine Aeroplanes out. I blame the Americans
and their Jet Airplanes.

You'll have to blame the British, because the first commercial jet
airliner was the De Havilland Comet, which was designed and built at
Hatfield, Hertfordshire.

And for a while we lead the world. If it hadn't been for the metal fatigue
problems that were pretty well unknown at that time and doomed the Comet,
maybe we still would have. There again, we gave the jet engine technology
to the Americans during the war.

In one form the Comet still flies of course - the Nimrod.


Comet was a great plane, but it had another fatal flaw.

It required a comprehensive strip down to get to the jet engines.

The Boeing's looked at the thing from a commercial operators
perspective, and realised that a cigar tube with wings strapped on and 4
pods dangling underneath was a heck of a site cheaper to fix.

Hence cost pre passenger mile was hugely less.

SteveW

On 19/04/2010 01:04, Onetap wrote:
On 18 Apr, 13:51, wrote:
Anyone taking bets on when flights will resume?

Time to get the old Piston-engine Aeroplanes out. I blame the Americans
and their Jet Airplanes.

The high pitched whine you can hear is Frank Whittle spinning in his
grave. I think he got a pittance for his efforts
.. And the then Labour Goverment gave a bunch of RR engines to the
Soviet Union. Stalion couldn't believe their stupidity.

If no-one is buying aviation fuel, has the price of domestic heating
oil dived like a gliding 747 (or do domestic boilers all use gas-oil/
red diesel)?
How much can they store, or do they have to stop refining the crude
stuff?

Didn't there used to be a storage facility at Buncefield?

--
Rod

"Nightjar \"cpb\"@" "insertmysurnamehere wrote:

It was not a fall, but a deliberate fast descent to a level where oxygen
was not needed - one of the crew's oxygen masks was broken - and where
engine restart procedures might be expected to work, which they did.

It's a pretty steep glide angle isn't it? I reckon it would feel
close enough to a fall for the passengers

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

Chris J Dixon wrote:
"Nightjar \"cpb\"@" "insertmysurnamehere wrote:

It was not a fall, but a deliberate fast descent to a level where oxygen
was not needed - one of the crew's oxygen masks was broken - and where
engine restart procedures might be expected to work, which they did.

It's a pretty steep glide angle isn't it? I reckon it would feel
close enough to a fall for the passengers

The glide angle is 15:1, but he had to go down a lot faster than that
because of the oxygen mask problem.

Colin Bignell

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 17:04:02 -0700 (PDT), Onetap wrote:

If no-one is buying aviation fuel, has the price of domestic heating
oil dived like a gliding 747 (or do domestic boilers all use gas-oil/
red diesel)?

Most doemstic boilers use kerosene (28 sec) oil. Only older
installations use gas oil (aka diesel). The price of crude has
dropped but it's still way over priced IMHO at nearly $86/barrel.

How much can they store, or do they have to stop refining the crude
stuff?

Stoping might be tricky as I think the restart is long and expensive.
They might be able to scale down refined output. Storeage capacity
donno, but if the tanks were on the full side to start with not
much...

--
Cheers
Dave.

js.b1 wrote:
Air France, 2 German Airlines, Dutch Airline and BA achieved
successful test flights.

An issue is the density of ash - below a certain level it may be
immaterial.

I suspect the real issue is the move to 2 turbines from 4...
#1 - reliability calculations for 2 turbines in place of 4 do not
include ash
#2 - high altitude may be critical for efficiency with 2 large high
bypass turbines

The 767 has a very high rate of climb to get to cruise altitude as
quickly as possible. Burning fuel at low altitude may not put it in
the drink, but may well require surcharges.

The successful test flights did not say at what altitude they were
performed.

Who are you replying to? Because you've chopped ALL previous content your
posting makes no sense. By all means cut out excess text but please keep the
context of the messages.

Chris J Dixon wrote:
"Nightjar \"cpb\"@" "insertmysurnamehere wrote:

It was not a fall, but a deliberate fast descent to a level where oxygen
was not needed - one of the crew's oxygen masks was broken - and where
engine restart procedures might be expected to work, which they did.

It's a pretty steep glide angle isn't it? I reckon it would feel
close enough to a fall for the passengers

Chris

No, its about one in 20: right up there with a sailplane.


And IIRC there was no 'fast' descent, there was a controlled glide back
towards the emergency landing site.

John wrote:
js.b1 wrote:
Air France, 2 German Airlines, Dutch Airline and BA achieved
successful test flights.

An issue is the density of ash - below a certain level it may be
immaterial.

I suspect the real issue is the move to 2 turbines from 4...
#1 - reliability calculations for 2 turbines in place of 4 do not
include ash
#2 - high altitude may be critical for efficiency with 2 large high
bypass turbines

The 767 has a very high rate of climb to get to cruise altitude as
quickly as possible. Burning fuel at low altitude may not put it in
the drink, but may well require surcharges.

The successful test flights did not say at what altitude they were
performed.

Who are you replying to? Because you've chopped ALL previous content your
posting makes no sense. By all means cut out excess text but please keep the
context of the messages.


It's the comment from Bruce. I use Thunderbird which uses a tree view to
display messages so that you can intuitively and instantly see and
understand how all of the messages relate. A consequence of this is that
having a load of previous text at the top of a posting becomes annoying.
Click on message, scroll down past previous stuff, click on next
message and scroll down previous stuff, etc. Be much better if everyone
top posted instead. No, I am not trying to troll or be antagonistic,
it's just my personal experience.

In article
s.com, js.b1 scribeth thus
Air France, 2 German Airlines, Dutch Airline and BA achieved
successful test flights.

An issue is the density of ash - below a certain level it may be
immaterial.

I suspect the real issue is the move to 2 turbines from 4...
#1 - reliability calculations for 2 turbines in place of 4 do not
include ash
#2 - high altitude may be critical for efficiency with 2 large high
bypass turbines

The 767 has a very high rate of climb to get to cruise altitude as
quickly as possible. Burning fuel at low altitude may not put it in
the drink, but may well require surcharges.

The successful test flights did not say at what altitude they were
performed.


Worth a read;!.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...0727/pictures-
finnish-f-18-engine-check-reveals-effects-of-volcanic.html
--
Tony Sayer

On Apr 17, 7:49*pm, "Graham." wrote:

Anyone taking bets on when flights will resume? I'm saying not before
end of Thursday, but what if lasted weeks/years? *

Dave

Right little Job's Comforter you are ;-)

I have a daughter currently en-route from Shanghai to Istanbul, where her onward flight
to London has, of course, been cancelled.

I feel sorry for anyone stranded abroad and I imagine it must be chaos
trying to arrange travel. It just shows us how much we are at the
mercy of nature regardless of wealth or status.

According to the BBC News, two F16 fighter jets have had their engines
damaged because of the ash. Presumably they intentionally flew into
the ash? So that pretty much means they won't be resuming commercial
flights for another week at least.

Dave.

"Nightjar "cpb"@" "insertmysurnamehere wrote in message
...
Chris J Dixon wrote:
"Nightjar \"cpb\"@" "insertmysurnamehere wrote:

It was not a fall, but a deliberate fast descent to a level where oxygen
was not needed - one of the crew's oxygen masks was broken - and where
engine restart procedures might be expected to work, which they did.

It's a pretty steep glide angle isn't it? I reckon it would feel
close enough to a fall for the passengers

The glide angle is 15:1, but he had to go down a lot faster than that
because of the oxygen mask problem.

Colin Bignell

The National Geographic did a very good documentary on the incident. You can
watch it here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWDU8XRQ_GY

Adam

On Apr 19, 10:54*am, tony sayer wrote:
In article
s.com, js.b1 scribeth thus
Air France, 2 German Airlines, Dutch Airline and BA achieved
successful test flights.
An issue is the density of ash - below a certain level it may be
immaterial.
I suspect the real issue is the move to 2 turbines from 4...
#1 - reliability calculations for 2 turbines in place of 4 do not
include ash
#2 - high altitude may be critical for efficiency with 2 large high
bypass turbines

The 767 has a very high rate of climb to get to cruise altitude as
quickly as possible. Burning fuel at low altitude may not put it in
the drink, but may well require surcharges.
The successful test flights did not say at what altitude they were
performed.


Worth a read;!.....
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...0727/pictures-
finnish-f-18-engine-check-reveals-effects-of-volcanic.html

Not good at all.
However it may still come down to what ash density at what altitude.

Incidentally oil has dropped to 80$pb.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Dave
saying something like:

Which is another madness.
Most of the needed aircraft could be flown to the west well under
20Kfeet and then go higher once clear of Ireland.

Perhaps that is why 2 EU guvmints have flown an aircraft each to decide
what the dust can do to the turbine part at the back of the engine.
It's a simple test to find out.

I just heard on the Beeb, that several F-16s had engine damage yesterday
in European ash cloud - no further info about height, speed or cloud
density.

The situation's changing all the time anyway. Now the ash is spreading
well past Ireland, but plenty of clear air to the west of Spain. I
spotted several German aircraft en route to the Caribbean yesterday, via
Spain. They were keeping under fifteen thousand feet.

I suppose the problem is one of uncertainty - even with sat imaging it's
not precisely clear where the edge of the ash is and at what density it
becomes almost negligible regarding long term damage.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Bruce
saying something like:

Those lucky enough to
live on western coasts will be treated to some spectacular sunsets!

Not so far - much to my disappointment.
We need more ash!

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Bruce
saying something like:

Didn't British Airways also fly an aircraft from London to Cardiff?

Yep, with a circuit of Ireland in between.

On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 04:45:23 -0700 (PDT), "js.b1"
wrote:

Incidentally oil has dropped to 80$pb.


That means a drop in petrol prices of about 1p per litre in September.

;-)

Dave Starling wrote:
On Apr 17, 7:49 pm, "Graham." wrote:

Anyone taking bets on when flights will resume? I'm saying not before
end of Thursday, but what if lasted weeks/years?

Dave

Right little Job's Comforter you are ;-)

I have a daughter currently en-route from Shanghai to Istanbul, where her onward flight
to London has, of course, been cancelled.

I feel sorry for anyone stranded abroad and I imagine it must be chaos
trying to arrange travel. It just shows us how much we are at the
mercy of nature regardless of wealth or status.

According to the BBC News, two F16 fighter jets have had their engines
damaged because of the ash. Presumably they intentionally flew into
the ash? So that pretty much means they won't be resuming commercial
flights for another week at least.


I wasn't aware that you could charter an F16 for a commercial flight.
Tell me more. Sounds like fun.

Dave.

In article
..com, js.b1 scribeth thus
On Apr 19, 10:54*am, tony sayer wrote:
In article
s.com, js.b1 scribeth thus
Air France, 2 German Airlines, Dutch Airline and BA achieved
successful test flights.
An issue is the density of ash - below a certain level it may be
immaterial.
I suspect the real issue is the move to 2 turbines from 4...
#1 - reliability calculations for 2 turbines in place of 4 do not
include ash
#2 - high altitude may be critical for efficiency with 2 large high
bypass turbines

The 767 has a very high rate of climb to get to cruise altitude as
quickly as possible. Burning fuel at low altitude may not put it in
the drink, but may well require surcharges.
The successful test flights did not say at what altitude they were
performed.


Worth a read;!.....
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...0727/pictures-
finnish-f-18-engine-check-reveals-effects-of-volcanic.html

Not good at all.
However it may still come down to what ash density at what altitude.

Indeed this is what the real practical problem will be..

Incidentally oil has dropped to 80$pb.

A useful bit of fallout..
--
Tony Sayer

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 21:17:04 +0100 Steve Walker wrote :
And for a while we lead the world. If it hadn't been for the metal fatigue
problems that were pretty well unknown at that time and doomed the Comet,
maybe we still would have.

Not totally unknown - Nevil Shute's No Highway [1948] revolves around metal
fatigue in aircraft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Highway

--
Tony Bryer, Greentram: 'Software to build on' Melbourne, Australia
www.superbeam.co.uk www.superbeam.com www.greentram.com

Anyone seen any fallout down Sussex/Kent way?

My windscreens had a slight dusting, but as I've just had two trees topped
and been running a woodchipper for a week, it's hard to tell if it's
wooddust (very likely) or some of Iceland's finest.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Dave Starling
wibbled on Monday 19 April 2010 12:30

On Apr 17, 7:49*pm, "Graham." wrote:

Anyone taking bets on when flights will resume? I'm saying not before
end of Thursday, but what if lasted weeks/years?

Dave

Right little Job's Comforter you are ;-)

I have a daughter currently en-route from Shanghai to Istanbul, where her
onward flight to London has, of course, been cancelled.

I feel sorry for anyone stranded abroad and I imagine it must be chaos
trying to arrange travel. It just shows us how much we are at the
mercy of nature regardless of wealth or status.

Rumour has it my sprog's teacher may be stuck in Iceland - find out later
when I go and collect her. Few schools round here have reportedly been
short staffed as a result of staff getting enforced Easter holiday
extentions.

According to the BBC News, two F16 fighter jets have had their engines
damaged because of the ash. Presumably they intentionally flew into
the ash? So that pretty much means they won't be resuming commercial
flights for another week at least.

Dave.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

On 19/04/2010 12:56, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 04:45:23 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Incidentally oil has dropped to 80$pb.


That means a drop in petrol prices of about 1p per litre in September.

;-)


All well and good, but if Cleggover gets his hands anywhere near UK's
controls in a couple of weeks he will be giving all of us a thorough
reaming....and I am sure fuel duty will be no exception.

On Apr 18, 9:58*am, Bruce wrote:
On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 11:06:05 +0100, "mark"

wrote:
I saw that helicopter in front of the crater on the TV news. How come that
could be so close (and presumably another helicopter with the cameraman) yet
all other aircraft within a 1000 mile radius grounded.

The pilot stayed to windward?

Although one edge of the dust cloud is temporarily (April 19th) over
Newfoundland which is on the great circle air route from eastern North
America to Britain/Europe!
One idea is to go round the other way; via Japan, China, Russia etc.!

On Apr 18, 9:58*am, Bruce wrote:
On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 11:06:05 +0100, "mark"

wrote:
I saw that helicopter in front of the crater on the TV news. How come that
could be so close (and presumably another helicopter with the cameraman) yet
all other aircraft within a 1000 mile radius grounded.

The pilot stayed to windward?

Probably risky; as it is with 'reporters' in war zones, taking risks
to 'get the news'.
i.e. 'Sightseeing', for the benefit of our viewers the most current
news event.

Viz: Mean while .................. at the mine disaster in
China .............. while Tiger Woods says ....... and David Beckam
is quoted ................... Gordon Brown continues ............. and
David Cameron will ...... at the Polish State funeral in Cracow .....
The pope
Blah, blah , blah ...............!
Can you just imagine the litigation if a 'regular passenger' on a
commercial flight suffered any kind of accident or inconvenience while
flying through a dust cloud. I bet the 'Ambulance chasers' are just
waiting to pounce ..... ?

Vortex6
wibbled on Monday 19 April 2010 14:39

On 19/04/2010 12:56, Bruce wrote:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 04:45:23 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Incidentally oil has dropped to 80$pb.


That means a drop in petrol prices of about 1p per litre in September.

;-)


All well and good, but if Cleggover gets his hands anywhere near UK's
controls in a couple of weeks he will be giving all of us a thorough
reaming....and I am sure fuel duty will be no exception.

Face it - after the election, everyone will be giving us a good reaming. In
the meantime, it's mostly the oil companies.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Huge wrote:
On 2010-04-19, Rob Horton wrote:
John wrote:

Who are you replying to? Because you've chopped ALL previous content your
posting makes no sense. By all means cut out excess text but please keep the
context of the messages.


It's the comment from Bruce. I use Thunderbird which uses a tree view to
display messages so that you can intuitively and instantly see and
understand how all of the messages relate.

Bully for you. And what about all the people who don't use Thunderbird?


Huge, it's not meant as "bully for me". I notice that you use SLRN. A
quick look at http://slrn.sourceforge.net gives the following screenshot

http://slrn.sourceforge.net/gallery/screenshot_05.html

So you do have a tree view.

I suspect that a large number of people use outlook express which also
has a tree view.

Hope that helps.

On 19/04/2010 15:36, Rob Horton wrote:
Huge wrote:
On 2010-04-19, Rob Horton wrote:
John wrote:

Who are you replying to? Because you've chopped ALL previous content
your posting makes no sense. By all means cut out excess text but
please keep the context of the messages.

It's the comment from Bruce. I use Thunderbird which uses a tree view
to display messages so that you can intuitively and instantly see and
understand how all of the messages relate.

Bully for you. And what about all the people who don't use Thunderbird?


Huge, it's not meant as "bully for me". I notice that you use SLRN. A
quick look at http://slrn.sourceforge.net gives the following screenshot

http://slrn.sourceforge.net/gallery/screenshot_05.html

So you do have a tree view.

I suspect that a large number of people use outlook express which also
has a tree view.

The fact that they provide a tree view does not mean it's the best
interface. I'm using Thunderbird, and don't have it as a tree view - I
much prefer the flat layout. Providing appropriate context to messages
isn't hard to do, so why not do it?

On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 14:39:30 +0100, Vortex6 wrote:

All well and good, but if Cleggover ...

I don't follow the news, especially "political" news before an
election. Has done a Paddy Pantsdown?

... I am sure fuel duty will be no exception.

After the fuss last time they tried to whack up fuel duty and the
rumblings when ever it's rumoured they are going to do more than 1p/l
at a time. All the parties will keep away from big single step rises
in fuel duty.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 19/04/2010 16:12, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 14:39:30 +0100, Vortex6 wrote:

All well and good, but if Cleggover ...

I don't follow the news, especially "political" news before an
election. Has done a Paddy Pantsdown?

IIRC he was over-frank in an interview around the time he became leader.
He answered questions on how many sexual partners he has had (answer 30+).

Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
Chris J Dixon wrote:
"Nightjar \"cpb\"@" "insertmysurnamehere wrote:

It was not a fall, but a deliberate fast descent to a level where
oxygen was not needed - one of the crew's oxygen masks was broken -
and where engine restart procedures might be expected to work, which
they did.

It's a pretty steep glide angle isn't it? I reckon it would feel
close enough to a fall for the passengers

The glide angle is 15:1, but he had to go down a lot faster than that
because of the oxygen mask problem.

The angle of attack would also be beneficial to re staring the engines
as well, by using the ram air to turn the compressor fan blades

Dave

On 19/04/2010 16:27, Vortex6 wrote:
On 19/04/2010 16:12, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 14:39:30 +0100, Vortex6 wrote:

All well and good, but if Cleggover ...

I don't follow the news, especially "political" news before an
election. Has done a Paddy Pantsdown?

IIRC he was over-frank in an interview around the time he became leader.
He answered questions on how many sexual partners he has had (answer 30+).



It was an interview with Piers Morgan, referred to about 70% down this page:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/elec...ent-looms.html