http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...n-1876388.html


Head of bomb detector company arrested in fraud investigation
Government announces ban on export of devices to Iraq and Afghanistan


Hundreds of people have been killed in horrific bombings in Iraq after a
British company supplied "bogus" equipment which failed to detect explosive
devices.
The head of the company, which has made tens of millions of pounds from the
sale of the detectors, has now been arrested and the British Government has
announced a ban on their export to Iraq and Afghanistan.


But questions were being raised last night about why action had not been
taken sooner on the supply of the detectors which leading weapons
specialists had condemned months ago as "useless and dangerous". The
equipment, which operates on a "dousing" principle and has no electronic
components - was also sold to Pakistan, Lebanon and Jordan, all countries
suffering deaths and injuries through terrorist bomb attacks.
Iraqi families who have suffered in the blasts last night condemned their
own government as well as the British authorities for allowing the
extraordinary security failure. Among the attacks that the detectors, it is
claimed, had failed to prevent were suicide bombings in October last year
which killed 155 people and blasts two months later which resulted in 120
more deaths.
Jim McCormick, a 53-year-old former police officer, was arrested by Avon and
Somerset police on Thursday after Chief Constable Colin Port ordered an
investigation. The Iraqi Prime Minister, Nouri al-Maliki, has also ordered
an inquiry into the purchase of 1,500 of the ADE 651 detectors by his
officials who paid £45,000 apiece for the equipment when they were on sale
elsewhere for about £15,000 each.
Last night it was announced that Lord Mandelson had asked the Department for
Business, Innovation and Skills to ban the export of the ADE 651 device to
Iraq and Afghanistan. In a statement the department said: "The reason the
ban is limited to these two countries is that our legal power to control
these goods is based on the risk that they could cause harm to UK and other
friendly forces. The British embassy in Baghdad has raised our concerns
about the ADE 651 with the Iraqi authorities. We have offered co-operation
with any investigation they may wish to make into how the device came to be
bought for their military as bomb detection equipment."
Mr McCormick, who served with Merseyside police before becoming managing
director of the company ATSC, said that his "highly successful" ADE series
was based on a similar principle to dowsing - the belief that certain types
of woods can detect water underground.
He claimed recently: "We have been dealing with doubters for 10 years. One
of the problems we have is that the machine does look a little primitive. We
are working on a new model that has flashing lights."
Avon and Somerset police said Mr Port became aware of the problem through
his role as the chairman of the International Police Assistance Board. A
spokesman stated: "We are conducting a criminal investigation and as part of
that a 53-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of fraud by
misrepresentation. That man has been released on bail pending further
inquiries. The force became aware of the existence of a piece of equipment
around which there has been many concerns and in the interests of public
safety launched its investigation. Given the obvious sensitivities around
the matter ... we cannot discuss it any further at the moment."
The "bomb detector", a small hand-held wand, with a telescopic aerial on a
swivel, is used in dozens of checkpoints in Iraqi cities including Baghdad.
It is claimed that it had failed to detect two tonnes of explosives used by
suicide bombers to murder 155 people and destroy three ministries in October
last year. There was a similar alleged shortcoming when 120 people were
killed in another series of bombings in December.
ATSC's sales literature claims that the device can detect minute quantities
of explosives from 1km away on land and up to 3km away from the air. Mr
McCormick had held that a "card reader" in the device can detect anything
"from explosives to elephants".
However Sidney Alford, a leading explosives expert, who has advised the UK
and US military, told the BBC's Newsnight programme that an examination of
the card showed it had "nothing to do with detection of TNT. There is no
microprocessor, there is no digital memory, there is no way to store any
information... This is a very cheap tag which I would estimate would cost
about two or three pence." Mr Alford added that he was "horrified" that the
device had been exported from the UK. "It could result in people being
killed in the dozens, if not hundreds."
Major General Richard J Rowe, of the US army, who oversees the training of
Iraqi police in Baghdad, stressed that the American forces did not use the
ADE 651. He said: "I don't believe there is a magic wand that can detect
explosives. If there was, we would all be using it. I have no confidence
that these work." The American professional magician James Randi has charged
that the detectors were a "blatant fraud" and offered Mr McCormick $1m if he
could prove that they work.
However the device has some defenders in Iraq. Major General Jihad
al-Jabiri, the head of the Interior Ministry's directorate for combat
explosives, said: "Whether it's magic or scientific, what I care about is
detecting bombs. I don't care what they say. I know more about bombs than
the Americans do. In fact, I know more about bombs than anyone in the
world."
Iraqis who have suffered from bombings are angry at the "fiasco" surrounding
the devices. Hakim al-Safi, a 48-year-old teacher whose son Haidar died in
the October bombings, said: "I am angry. I do not know who I am angry with
more, the people who made these stupid things and then made money or our
government officials who paid so much money for these things which failed to
protect us. And the British Government, did they not know what was being
done from their land?"

"Arthur 51" wrote in message
...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...n-1876388.html



It a hand held TV detector and I claim my £5.

Adam

I feel a mixture of great sadness for the bombing victims, and
incredulity that anyone responsible for procurement did not have the
devices thoroughly tested.

Perhaps corrupt payments played a part.

I would hope to see Jim McCormick go on trial - in Iraq.

Peter Scott wrote:
wrote:
I feel a mixture of great sadness for the bombing victims, and
incredulity that anyone responsible for procurement did not have the
devices thoroughly tested.

Perhaps corrupt payments played a part.

I would hope to see Jim McCormick go on trial - in Iraq.

The whole business of arms dealing is so big and unpleasant that there
must be corruption. After all Thatcher's son Mark was involved. Say no
more? According to a radio 4 report it seems that the man had put in
cards that were nothing more than RFID circuits and said they configured
the devices for a particular task. Trouble is, arms is a significant
part of our export trade. Anyone know what percentage?

As you say the poor squaddies and Iraqis who get blown up that deserve
justice.

Peter Scott

Seems this whole story has been running for a couple of years
(google ade651) - and has only now been recognised by the mainstream press.

While I'd agree that the arms business is a bit of a cesspit - it seems
that these devices were not sold as 'military' kit - so were outside the
usual controls (whatever they might be!)

Having dowsed, and seen dowsing in action (many of the local
water-boring companies out here use it successfully) - the idea of
a dowsing device that could be 'configured' by inserting an appropriate
RFID card seems ludicrous.

I guess the real tragedy is in lives lost and injuries inflicted because
people believed that this device was actually detecting explosives...

But - given the Technical specifications quoted on
http://www.ade651.com/datostecnicosin.html

Detection Range (in Tests)

˜» Above ground Up to 650 meters
in ideal conditions
˜» From Aircraft Up to 5000 meters (3+miles)
˜» Under Water Up to 30 meters (100+ feet)
˜» Underground Up to 10 meters (30+ feet)

You'd think somebody might have 'detected' a scam in progress?

In message
,
" writes
I feel a mixture of great sadness for the bombing victims, and
incredulity that anyone responsible for procurement did not have the
devices thoroughly tested.

Perhaps corrupt payments played a part.

I would hope to see Jim McCormick go on trial - in Iraq.


Stick him in the middle of a minefield and let him see if his device
will get him out

--
geoff

In message , Adrian Brentnall
writes
Peter Scott wrote:
wrote:
I feel a mixture of great sadness for the bombing victims, and
incredulity that anyone responsible for procurement did not have the
devices thoroughly tested.

Perhaps corrupt payments played a part.

I would hope to see Jim McCormick go on trial - in Iraq.
The whole business of arms dealing is so big and unpleasant that
there must be corruption. After all Thatcher's son Mark was involved.
Say no more? According to a radio 4 report it seems that the man had
put in cards that were nothing more than RFID circuits and said they
configured the devices for a particular task. Trouble is, arms is a
significant part of our export trade. Anyone know what percentage?
As you say the poor squaddies and Iraqis who get blown up that
deserve justice.
Peter Scott

Seems this whole story has been running for a couple of years
(google ade651) - and has only now been recognised by the mainstream press.

While I'd agree that the arms business is a bit of a cesspit - it seems
that these devices were not sold as 'military' kit - so were outside the
usual controls (whatever they might be!)

Having dowsed, and seen dowsing in action (many of the local
water-boring companies out here use it successfully) - the idea of
a dowsing device that could be 'configured' by inserting an appropriate
RFID card seems ludicrous.

I guess the real tragedy is in lives lost and injuries inflicted because
people believed that this device was actually detecting explosives...


The real tragedy is that I didn't think of it first


--
geoff

Adrian Brentnall wrote:
Peter Scott wrote:
wrote:
I feel a mixture of great sadness for the bombing victims, and
incredulity that anyone responsible for procurement did not have the
devices thoroughly tested.

Perhaps corrupt payments played a part.

I would hope to see Jim McCormick go on trial - in Iraq.

The whole business of arms dealing is so big and unpleasant that there
must be corruption. After all Thatcher's son Mark was involved. Say no
more? According to a radio 4 report it seems that the man had put in
cards that were nothing more than RFID circuits and said they
configured the devices for a particular task. Trouble is, arms is a
significant part of our export trade. Anyone know what percentage?

As you say the poor squaddies and Iraqis who get blown up that deserve
justice.

Peter Scott

Seems this whole story has been running for a couple of years
(google ade651) - and has only now been recognised by the mainstream press.

While I'd agree that the arms business is a bit of a cesspit - it seems
that these devices were not sold as 'military' kit - so were outside the
usual controls (whatever they might be!)

Having dowsed, and seen dowsing in action (many of the local
water-boring companies out here use it successfully) - the idea of
a dowsing device that could be 'configured' by inserting an appropriate
RFID card seems ludicrous.


If you believe it enough, it will work brilliantly!

I guess the real tragedy is in lives lost and injuries inflicted because
people believed that this device was actually detecting explosives...

But - given the Technical specifications quoted on
http://www.ade651.com/datostecnicosin.html

Detection Range (in Tests)

☻ Above ground Up to 650 meters
in ideal conditions
☻ From Aircraft Up to 5000 meters (3+miles)
☻ Under Water Up to 30 meters (100+ feet)
☻ Underground Up to 10 meters (30+ feet)

You'd think somebody might have 'detected' a scam in progress?

Adrian Brentnall pretended :
But - given the Technical specifications quoted on
http://www.ade651.com/datostecnicosin.html

Detection Range (in Tests)

Site suspended

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

"Arthur 51" wrote in message
...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...n-1876388.html

It says it works by dousing so that tells you why it will never work.
The questions remaining include..

why would anyone be stupid enough to buy one.
why would they be allowed to sell one.
who will kill him first.

On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:49:00 +0000, geoff wrote:

In message
,
" writes
I feel a mixture of great sadness for the bombing victims, and
incredulity that anyone responsible for procurement did not have the
devices thoroughly tested.

Perhaps corrupt payments played a part.

I would hope to see Jim McCormick go on trial - in Iraq.


Stick him in the middle of a minefield and let him see if his device
will get him out


"Last night it was announced that Lord Mandelson had asked the
Department for
Business, Innovation and Skills to ban the export of the ADE 651
device to
Iraq and Afghanistan. In a statement the department said: "The reason
the
ban is limited to these two countries is that our legal power to
control
these goods is based on the risk that they could cause harm to UK and
other
friendly forces. "

So they can only ban the sale in countries where Brits ( Brit Forces
that is ) might be affected .Other Brits and other folks don't matter
..

In message , "dennis@home"
writes


"Arthur 51" wrote in message
...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...etector-compan
y-arrested-in-fraud-investigation-1876388.html

It says it works by dousing so that tells you why it will never work.
The questions remaining include..

why would anyone be stupid enough to buy one.
why would they be allowed to sell one.
who will kill him first.


**** me Pennis you thick ****

This was just a faulty batch with a crack in the case which let the
snake oil leak out

you humourless ****

--
geoff

geoff wrote:
In message , "dennis@home"
writes


"Arthur 51" wrote in message
...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...etector-compan
y-arrested-in-fraud-investigation-1876388.html

It says it works by dousing so that tells you why it will never work.
The questions remaining include..

why would anyone be stupid enough to buy one.
why would they be allowed to sell one.
who will kill him first.


**** me Pennis you thick ****

This was just a faulty batch with a crack in the case which let the
snake oil leak out

Adrian Brentnall wrote:


unlike an ISP to have an attack of 'social responsibiity' g


******** to that. More like an attack of legal panic. IF you know your
site is being used to perpetrate a fraud, then unless you stop it, its
conspiracy innit?


Oddly enough - no sign of the site on the wayback machine...

Adrian

Owain wrote:
On 23 Jan, 18:15, Usenet Nutter wrote:
"Last night it was announced that Lord Mandelson had asked the
Department for
Business, Innovation and Skills to ban the export of the ADE 651
device to
Iraq and Afghanistan. In a statement the department said: "The reason
the
ban is limited to these two countries is that our legal power to
control
these goods is based on the risk that they could cause harm to UK and
other
friendly forces. "

So they can only ban the sale in countries where Brits ( Brit Forces
that is ) might be affected .Other Brits and other folks don't matter

Couldn't Trading Standards withdraw the product from the market or
stop it being sold under
Trade Descriptions Act?

Not if the sale takes place abroad outside jurisdiction.


Owain

"geoff" wrote in message
...

you humourless ****

What's funny about people dying you pratt.

In message , "dennis@home"
writes


"geoff" wrote in message
...

you humourless ****

What's funny about people dying you pratt.

Well, if it was you ...



No you miss the point as usual

It was the wankish way in which you stated the bleedingly obvious as if
it was your original idea

--
geoff

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "
saying something like:

I feel a mixture of great sadness for the bombing victims, and
incredulity that anyone responsible for procurement did not have the
devices thoroughly tested.

Perhaps corrupt payments played a part.

Be a most unusual arms deal if not.

I would hope to see Jim McCormick go on trial - in Iraq.

I'd pay to see that.

On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:51:22 +0000, Adrian Brentnall
wibbled:


Oddly enough - no sign of the site on the wayback machine...

Adrian

Google cache wins again:


http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:8...ww.ade651.com/
datostecnicosin.html+http://www.ade651.com/
datostecnicosin.html&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk


--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 23:56:19 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon
wibbled:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "
saying something like:

I feel a mixture of great sadness for the bombing victims, and
incredulity that anyone responsible for procurement did not have the
devices thoroughly tested.

Perhaps corrupt payments played a part.

Be a most unusual arms deal if not.

I would hope to see Jim McCormick go on trial - in Iraq.

I'd pay to see that.

Long may he be strung up by the ******** if guilty.

However, the blame seems two sided if this is to be believed:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8476381.stm

"The device consists of a swivelling aerial mounted to a hinge on a hand-
grip. It does not operate by battery, instead promotional material says
it is powered only by the user's static electricity."

WTF? Static? You'd have to be a moron not to sniff something there.

However:

From http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:8...ww.ade651.com/
datostecnicosin.html+http://www.ade651.com/
datostecnicosin.html&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

"Calibration: Not required. Operator tests equipment prior to use by
detecting a sample substance. Regular normal cleaning recommended."

If the device is as fake as it's being alluded to, wouldn't even the most
basic check fail? The army aren't short of explosive materials to wave
this thing over.

This can't be quite as simple as the media is portraying (that *would* be
news). Wonder what else is in the details...
--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

On Jan 24, 1:36 pm, Tim Watts wrote:

If the device is as fake as it's being alluded to, wouldn't even the most
basic check fail? The army aren't short of explosive materials to wave
this thing over.

But do the army have a 1km radius area anywhere that has absolutely no
explosives in it?

"ATSC's sales literature claims that the device can detect minute
quantities of explosives from 1km away on land and up to 3km away from
the air. "

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Tim Watts saying
something like:

On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:51:22 +0000, Adrian Brentnall
wibbled:


Oddly enough - no sign of the site on the wayback machine...

Adrian

Google cache wins again:


url:http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:8...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Excellent.

On 24 Jan, 00:36, Tim Watts wrote:
Long may he be strung up by the ******** if guilty.

The correct procedure is to place Mr McCormick in the centre of a
minefield with his choice of his own products.

Pete Shew

In message
,
peteshew writes
On 24 Jan, 00:36, Tim Watts wrote:
Long may he be strung up by the ******** if guilty.

The correct procedure is to place Mr McCormick in the centre of a
minefield with his choice of his own products.

Keep up at the back there ...

--
geoff

On 24 Jan, 04:23, Matty F wrote:
On Jan 24, 1:36 pm, Tim Watts wrote:

If the device is as fake as it's being alluded to, wouldn't even the most
basic check fail? The army aren't short of explosive materials to wave
this thing over.

But do the army have a 1km radius area anywhere that has absolutely no
explosives in it?

"ATSC's sales literature claims that the device can detect minute
quantities of explosives from 1km away on land and up to 3km away from
the air. "

Reminds me of the oil sniffing plane scam

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oil_Sniffer_Hoax

Which seems to be making some sort of comeback

http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/21/air...mepagechannels

ADE51 not the only expensive explosive divining rod

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniffex

10% of U.K used to be `defence` related, as mate used to say , he
worked for Ferranti, its the attack industry don`t make many defensive
items.

Cheers
Adam

ADE51 not the only expensive explosive divining rod

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniffex


and theres more

http://www.hazard-detection.com/

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Guess with this sort of kit buyers don`t have to live with the
shame....

Cheers
Adam

On Sat, 23 Jan 2010 20:23:10 -0800, Matty F
wibbled:

On Jan 24, 1:36 pm, Tim Watts wrote:

If the device is as fake as it's being alluded to, wouldn't even the
most basic check fail? The army aren't short of explosive materials to
wave this thing over.

But do the army have a 1km radius area anywhere that has absolutely no
explosives in it?

"ATSC's sales literature claims that the device can detect minute
quantities of explosives from 1km away on land and up to 3km away from
the air. "

Another one against the MOD - that sounds about a useful as being able to
detect that a gnat had a **** in a lake last Tuesday.

You are more likely to want to detect a minute residue at close quarters
(eg clothes, fingers, of some dude you just brought in) or a bloody big
concentration of explosives in a 100-odd metre range (eg there's a mine
ahead).

Can't see the point of what they're claiming, apart from as you allude
to, it makes negative testing rather more uncertain.



--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.