Finally my husband has said that we have to move house.

Currently we have a two bedroom bungalow in a very rural area . Septic tank,
no mains gas and an extension ( one room) which has a flat roof and a large
garden - an acre or so, all electric which he also hates.

There is little or nothing going wrong with these things right now. We have
had problems with the septic tank in the past ( well a blocked drain but
that was sorted - surely you can have blocked drains on mains drainage too?)

He says another place would be cheaper and we cant afford this one. He
maintains loads of things are wrong with this house but I don't see any of
them when I look around. We have rising damp apparently but its
condensation.

I don't know how much our house is worth but not a lot given its state of
repair - old bathroom, ( avocado suite if you remember those) and old
kitchen and mostly old storage heaters and rather damp right now as a result
of no heating. The guttering leaks at all joints and the double glazing is
so old it probably needs re doing too.

We don't have a mortgage and no real money worries to be honest.

He wants to move into town into an old peoples unit ( one bed and no
garden) which would cost about £80,000. It would be leasehold and
maintenance fees are about £500 at the moment.

We would also have to have a water meter and we would still have storage
heaters as they have no mains gas allowed there either - I think that was
for safety reasons for the elderly.

He is 59 and retired early recently.

I am 50 and still working.

I don't want to move. I would rather try and sort our house out. I don't
have the skills for this though. I do know my neighbour who is on a water
meter pays £254 a quarter for water and there is no reason to suppose we
would use less than her. I currently pay £250 a year in rates for water (
our septic tank means we get reduced rates - we wouldn't get that with a
water meter in SW water) .

Is it bad news to have a house with septic tank and storage heaters and no
mains gas and a flat roof on an extension? Or is he being bloody silly?

Just want opinions really. Thanks.

On 21 Dec, 09:38, "whiskeyomega" wrote:
Finally my husband has said that we have to move house.

Currently we have a two bedroom bungalow in a very rural area . Septic tank,
no mains gas *and an extension ( one room) which has a flat roof and a large
garden - *an acre or *so, all electric which he also hates.

There is little or nothing going wrong with these things right now. We have
had problems with the septic tank in the past ( well a blocked drain but
that was sorted - surely you can have blocked drains on mains drainage too?)

He says another place would be cheaper and we cant afford this one. He
maintains loads of things are wrong with this house but I don't see any of
them when I look around. We have rising damp apparently but its
condensation.

I don't know how much our house is worth but not a lot given its state of
repair - old bathroom, ( avocado suite if you remember those) and old
kitchen and mostly old storage heaters and rather damp right now as a result
of no heating. The guttering leaks at all *joints and the double glazing is
so old it probably needs re doing too.

We don't have a mortgage and no real money worries to be honest.

He wants to move into town into an old peoples unit ( one bed *and *no
garden) *which would cost about £80,000. *It would be leasehold and
maintenance fees are about £500 at the moment.

We would also have to have a water meter and we would *still have storage
heaters as they have no mains gas allowed there either - I think that was
for safety reasons for the elderly.

He is 59 and retired early recently.

I am 50 and still working.

I don't want to move. I would rather try and sort our house out. *I don't
have the skills for this though. I do know my neighbour who is on a water
meter pays £254 a quarter for water *and there is no reason to suppose we
would use less than her. *I currently pay £250 a year in rates for water (
our septic tank means we get reduced rates - we wouldn't get that with a
water meter in SW water) .

Is it bad news to have a house with septic tank and storage heaters and no
mains gas and a flat roof on an extension? Or is he being bloody silly?

Just want opinions really. Thanks.

He sees loads of problems that you are not aware of ?
Maybe he feels responsible for the maintenance and feels he is letting
you down by not being able to do it. Age 59 is very young to want to
move into an old peoples development. Do you not enjoy your large
garden? Being cooped up in town might be something you soon regret.
Having said, that if a house reaches a stage of needing a total
renovation, it can be expensive. Why not fix one thing at a time,
starting with the leaking gutter ?
Happy Christmas !
Simon.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
whiskeyomega wrote:

Finally my husband has said that we have to move house.

Currently we have a two bedroom bungalow in a very rural area .
Septic tank, no mains gas and an extension ( one room) which has a
flat roof and a large garden - an acre or so, all electric which he
also hates.
There is little or nothing going wrong with these things right now.
We have had problems with the septic tank in the past ( well a
blocked drain but that was sorted - surely you can have blocked
drains on mains drainage too?)
He says another place would be cheaper and we cant afford this one. He
maintains loads of things are wrong with this house but I don't see
any of them when I look around. We have rising damp apparently but its
condensation.

I don't know how much our house is worth but not a lot given its
state of repair - old bathroom, ( avocado suite if you remember
those) and old kitchen and mostly old storage heaters and rather damp
right now as a result of no heating. The guttering leaks at all joints and
the double glazing is so old it probably needs re doing
too.
We don't have a mortgage and no real money worries to be honest.

He wants to move into town into an old peoples unit ( one bed and no
garden) which would cost about £80,000. It would be leasehold and
maintenance fees are about £500 at the moment.

We would also have to have a water meter and we would still have
storage heaters as they have no mains gas allowed there either - I
think that was for safety reasons for the elderly.

He is 59 and retired early recently.

I am 50 and still working.

I don't want to move. I would rather try and sort our house out. I
don't have the skills for this though. I do know my neighbour who is
on a water meter pays £254 a quarter for water and there is no
reason to suppose we would use less than her. I currently pay £250 a
year in rates for water ( our septic tank means we get reduced rates
- we wouldn't get that with a water meter in SW water) .

Is it bad news to have a house with septic tank and storage heaters
and no mains gas and a flat roof on an extension? Or is he being
bloody silly?
Just want opinions really. Thanks.


Your house has lots of *potential* - but is clearly not a very attractive
propostion for any prospective buyer in its current state. You clearly don't
*want* to move, so why not spend some money on improving your current house?

OK, there's no mains gas - but oil-fired central heating is perfectly
feasible, and would dramatically improve overall comfort levels. You need to
make sure that loft and wall insulation are up to standard, replace the
guttering, and probably replace the windows. You'll probably also want to
re-do the bathroom and kitchen.

Septic tanks are not really a problem - lots of rural properties have them.
Flat roofs are not wonderful - you just have to budget for re-felting them
every 15 years or so.

In your position, I would look at spending 25 or 30 grand on making your
current property really nice rather than thinking of moving. I certainly
wouldn't consider retirement properties if I were fit and active - you would
find them vert restrictive. Planning and project-managing all the
improvements will keep your recently-retired husband out of mischief even if
he doesn'y DIY any of it. And, at the end of it all, you'll have something
which is much more saleable if you *do* ultimately decide to move.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

"whiskeyomega" wrote in message ...
Finally my husband has said that we have to move house.

Currently we have a two bedroom bungalow in a very rural area . Septic tank, no mains gas and an extension ( one room) which has
a flat roof and a large garden - an acre or so, all electric which he also hates.

There is little or nothing going wrong with these things right now. We have had problems with the septic tank in the past ( well a
blocked drain but that was sorted - surely you can have blocked drains on mains drainage too?)

He says another place would be cheaper and we cant afford this one. He maintains loads of things are wrong with this house but I
don't see any of them when I look around. We have rising damp apparently but its condensation.

I don't know how much our house is worth but not a lot given its state of repair - old bathroom, ( avocado suite if you remember
those) and old kitchen and mostly old storage heaters and rather damp right now as a result of no heating. The guttering leaks at
all joints and the double glazing is so old it probably needs re doing too.

We don't have a mortgage and no real money worries to be honest.

He wants to move into town into an old peoples unit ( one bed and no garden) which would cost about £80,000. It would be
leasehold and maintenance fees are about £500 at the moment.

We would also have to have a water meter and we would still have storage heaters as they have no mains gas allowed there either -
I think that was for safety reasons for the elderly.

He is 59 and retired early recently.

I am 50 and still working.

I don't want to move. I would rather try and sort our house out. I don't have the skills for this though. I do know my neighbour
who is on a water meter pays £254 a quarter for water and there is no reason to suppose we would use less than her. I currently
pay £250 a year in rates for water ( our septic tank means we get reduced rates - we wouldn't get that with a water meter in SW
water) .

Is it bad news to have a house with septic tank and storage heaters and no mains gas and a flat roof on an extension? Or is he
being bloody silly?

Just want opinions really. Thanks.

Are you both in good health?
I ask because I am 56, my wife is 49, both working and in good health, and
the idea of us entering our dotage (which to me is what you are contemplating)
seems a good way off yet.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

"Graham." wrote in message
...



Are you both in good health?
I ask because I am 56, my wife is 49, both working and in good health, and
the idea of us entering our dotage (which to me is what you are
contemplating)
seems a good way off yet.


What do you class as good health? He has high blood pressure but it is
controlled by medication. He claims though he has a heart condition ( which
he does not!).

I was in good health until I had influenza and pneumonia last year. Now I
find it hard to do many things but that I think is because I am always so
cold as we don't have a warm house anymore. I am fine at work, I just get
tired.

I could do many things but I am afraid ( and I am conscious this is turning
into a whinge now) my husband being home stops me doing them. he complains
if I get the paint out to paint a wall even. He wont allow anyone in to do
repairs and he wont do them himself.

I have offered to pay out of my own earnings - doing overtime if required.

I never realised he would be like this. When he was at work I used to get
things done whilst he was out and tell him afterwards.

In message , whiskeyomega
writes

"Graham." wrote in message
...



Are you both in good health?
I ask because I am 56, my wife is 49, both working and in good health, and
the idea of us entering our dotage (which to me is what you are
contemplating)
seems a good way off yet.


What do you class as good health? He has high blood pressure but it is
controlled by medication. He claims though he has a heart condition (
which he does not!).

I was in good health until I had influenza and pneumonia last year. Now
I find it hard to do many things but that I think is because I am
always so cold as we don't have a warm house anymore. I am fine at
work, I just get tired.

I could do many things but I am afraid ( and I am conscious this is
turning into a whinge now) my husband being home stops me doing them.
he complains if I get the paint out to paint a wall even. He wont
allow anyone in to do repairs and he wont do them himself.

I have offered to pay out of my own earnings - doing overtime if required.

I never realised he would be like this. When he was at work I used to
get things done whilst he was out and tell him afterwards.

I saw that in my father in later years - obsessed with the little
problems and unable to see the bigger picture

If your house is not in a good state of repair, you are unlikely to see
full market value (especially in this economic climate)

Does hubby realise the cost of moving and selling the property ? For the
amount you are going to pay "professionals" you could probably have paid
for a significant part of the work which needs doing to make the
property more comfortable

Put your foot down and don't be bullied


--
geoff

In article ,
whiskeyomega wrote:
Is it bad news to have a house with septic tank and storage heaters and
no mains gas and a flat roof on an extension? Or is he being bloody
silly?

IMHO, the main thing would be to get some form of affordable heating. Is
wood for burning readily available since you live in a rural area?

--
*Why don't you ever see the headline "Psychic Wins Lottery"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
whiskeyomega wrote:
Is it bad news to have a house with septic tank and storage heaters and
no mains gas and a flat roof on an extension? Or is he being bloody
silly?

IMHO, the main thing would be to get some form of affordable heating. Is
wood for burning readily available since you live in a rural area?

--

I don't think that our heating is unaffordable really. It may not be as
warm as others but it being on would help

We are currently heating the whole place on one large heater in the hall
( 3.4 kw) and one small heater in the sitting room ( 1.7kw) , There are two
heaters in the sitting room but we have the smaller of the two on. To give
you an idea the sitting room is 20ft x 13ft. The dining room next to it is
10ft x 12ft . Both bedrooms are 12ft x12ft and neither has a room heater
on. The hall heater is supposed to heats them ( its a 3.4 kw ) but the
kitchen sucks a lot of heat from the hall. The kitchen is freezing to be
honest and wet - water down the windows and water down the tiles on the
walls and mould growing on the ceiling across the coor and windows.

He just says we cant afford to put the heating on but I work and get £200 a
week and he has £200 a week pension - ok so not as much as we got when he
was working .

He just wont let anything be done.

On and there isn't a supply of wood. We would have to open up a fireplace
anyway and we don't have a fire grate, and we don't have a boiler and we
don't even know what the previous owners did when they blocked the
fireplaces up. We could find ourselves knocking out breeze blocks and find
nothing in behind at all. I doubt I could afford the money to put a new
fireplace in there - and the cost of coal according to my parents is rather
more than our electric right now.

Besides he us just hell bent on seeing us freeze with some Victorian idea of
going in the poor house ( I am not kidding - he seems to think we are going
to be poor because he is now on a pension)

whiskeyomega wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
whiskeyomega wrote:
Is it bad news to have a house with septic tank and storage heaters
and no mains gas and a flat roof on an extension? Or is he being
bloody silly?

IMHO, the main thing would be to get some form of affordable
heating. Is wood for burning readily available since you live in a
rural area? --

I don't think that our heating is unaffordable really. It may not be
as warm as others but it being on would help

We are currently heating the whole place on one large heater in the
hall ( 3.4 kw) and one small heater in the sitting room ( 1.7kw) ,
There are two heaters in the sitting room but we have the smaller of
the two on. To give you an idea the sitting room is 20ft x 13ft. The
dining room next to it is 10ft x 12ft . Both bedrooms are 12ft x12ft
and neither has a room heater on. The hall heater is supposed to
heats them ( its a 3.4 kw ) but the kitchen sucks a lot of heat from
the hall. The kitchen is freezing to be honest and wet - water down
the windows and water down the tiles on the walls and mould growing
on the ceiling across the coor and windows.
He just says we cant afford to put the heating on but I work and get
£200 a week and he has £200 a week pension - ok so not as much as we
got when he was working .

He just wont let anything be done.

On and there isn't a supply of wood. We would have to open up a
fireplace anyway and we don't have a fire grate, and we don't have a
boiler and we don't even know what the previous owners did when they
blocked the fireplaces up. We could find ourselves knocking out
breeze blocks and find nothing in behind at all. I doubt I could
afford the money to put a new fireplace in there - and the cost of
coal according to my parents is rather more than our electric right
now.
Besides he us just hell bent on seeing us freeze with some Victorian
idea of going in the poor house ( I am not kidding - he seems to
think we are going to be poor because he is now on a pension)

I think he is looking at the bigger picture here, and you should too.
The house is cold and damp, and in the next 8 - 10 years is going to be even
damper and probably colder, which at your (and his) time of life isn't going
to do either of you any favours healthwise, plus the fact that your 200 per
week will probably be a distant memory by then and you'll have to survive on
half what you are getting now.

To put the house right, IE central heating, DG, new kitchen, bathroom and
pitched roof on extension plus a DPC is going to cost more than you can
afford, unless you remortgage the place, wheras if you sell, considering
it's in a rural area (another minus point for two pensioners in a cold, damp
property), you might get twice what it's going to cost you for a modern unit
in town, leaving you a nice nest egg and a comfortable retirement in a warm,
safe environment.

OTOH if you really want to stay there, for the sake of the health and
wellbeing of both of you, you need to get proper heating(*) and a chemical
DPC installed at least. The flat roof will cost you a couple of grand every
25 years or so if you want to leave it on, and I'm sure you could put up
with the green bathroom suite for a while.

(*)
You can get CH that runs on bottled gas or oil, and it still probably works
out cheaper than electricity.

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 20:01:17 GMT, Phil L wrote:

The house is cold and damp,

Only 'cause he refuses to have the heating on, have a cooker hood
vented to the outside etc...

You can get CH that runs on bottled gas or oil, and it still probably
works out cheaper than electricity.

Not a lot in it as far as oil in concerned now, I suspect LPG is
similar as well and there would be a significant installation cost.
Both gas an oil have maintenance costs, storage heaters generally
just work without any maintenance.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Phil L" wrote in message
m...
whiskeyomega wrote:


I think he is looking at the bigger picture here, and you should too.
The house is cold and damp, and in the next 8 - 10 years is going to be
even damper and probably colder, which at your (and his) time of life
isn't going to do either of you any favours healthwise, plus the fact that
your 200 per week will probably be a distant memory by then and you'll
have to survive on half what you are getting now.

I love this house. It me going out to work that paid for it. I paid the
mortgage off in six years ( our mortgage was supposed to run until he was
65) . He input the money from our last hell hole ( an ex council house,
which wass damp and cold and had belonged to his father - he inherited it.
After he rowed the neighbour over a bloody leylandii bush we had to move)

This house was warm and dry and had few problems when we moved here - 12
years ago.

I used to keep it up whilst he was at work - get workmen in to do things or
my mother and father to help me decorate.

Then the ******* retired last summer. Since then he has been on a savings
trip.

I told him this morning I would buy him out of the house and he could F Off
to his precious old peoples bungalow. I wouldnt be able to live there
anyway, I am under 55 and thats the minimum age you both have to be. I
told him I was not going to live in the cold any longer. I have switched all
the heating on to come on this evening.

The kitchen is still a problem though. Its got condensation ( even he admits
it).

I also now have a decorating and maintenance problem I would not have had
otherwise. That will now cost of course.

But I still like this house. Its what most of you on this board would give
your right arms for to be honest. I did too.

All it needs is a bit of care instead of an arse who is intent on being
obsessed with money and mains gas.
He still keeps saying that because we dont have gas we cant be warm.

Oh, and he now says he didnt stop me putting the heating on if I wanted to
pay the collosal bill at the end of it.

I just told him to bugger off out of it. He hasnt.
I have just had enough. I dont see why I need to move to a box in a town
for nothing.
Now I need some cheap fixes until spring - for guttering, for the damp and
the decoration . I saw the suggestion for wall paper earlier.

"whiskeyomega" wrote in message
...



Then the ******* retired last summer. Since then he has been on a savings
trip.

I told him this morning I would buy him out of the house and he could F
Off to his precious old peoples bungalow.


Good on you.

mark

"whiskeyomega" gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

I told him this morning I would buy him out of the house and he could F
Off to his precious old peoples bungalow.

Good for you, girl.

I told him I was not going to live in the cold any longer. I have
switched all the heating on to come on this evening.

Soddit. Get the heating on now. Once the place is warmed through, it
won't take as much energy to keep it warm as it takes to get it there.

On 22/12/2009 10:37, whiskeyomega wrote:

"Phil L" wrote in message
m...
whiskeyomega wrote:


I think he is looking at the bigger picture here, and you should too.
The house is cold and damp, and in the next 8 - 10 years is going to
be even damper and probably colder, which at your (and his) time of
life isn't going to do either of you any favours healthwise, plus the
fact that your 200 per week will probably be a distant memory by then
and you'll have to survive on half what you are getting now.

I love this house. It me going out to work that paid for it. I paid the
mortgage off in six years ( our mortgage was supposed to run until he
was 65) . He input the money from our last hell hole ( an ex council
house, which wass damp and cold and had belonged to his father - he
inherited it. After he rowed the neighbour over a bloody leylandii bush
we had to move)

This house was warm and dry and had few problems when we moved here - 12
years ago.

I used to keep it up whilst he was at work - get workmen in to do things
or my mother and father to help me decorate.

Then the ******* retired last summer. Since then he has been on a
savings trip.

I told him this morning I would buy him out of the house and he could F
Off to his precious old peoples bungalow. I wouldnt be able to live
there anyway, I am under 55 and thats the minimum age you both have to
be. I told him I was not going to live in the cold any longer. I have
switched all the heating on to come on this evening.

The kitchen is still a problem though. Its got condensation ( even he
admits it).

I also now have a decorating and maintenance problem I would not have
had otherwise. That will now cost of course.

But I still like this house. Its what most of you on this board would
give your right arms for to be honest. I did too.

All it needs is a bit of care instead of an arse who is intent on being
obsessed with money and mains gas.
He still keeps saying that because we dont have gas we cant be warm.

Oh, and he now says he didnt stop me putting the heating on if I wanted
to pay the collosal bill at the end of it.

I just told him to bugger off out of it. He hasnt.
I have just had enough. I dont see why I need to move to a box in a town
for nothing.
Now I need some cheap fixes until spring - for guttering, for the damp
and the decoration . I saw the suggestion for wall paper earlier.



Just A thought, have you thought about oil fired heating, initial outlay
quite high, but running costs would be a fraction of electric costs.

Bit of info here.

http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects...heatingoil.htm

TGH

whiskeyomega wrote:

I love this house. It me going out to work that paid for it. I paid
the mortgage off in six years
[...]
I told him this morning I would buy him out of the house and he could F
Off to his precious old peoples bungalow. I wouldnt be able to live
there anyway, I am under 55 and thats the minimum age you both have to
be. I told him I was not going to live in the cold any longer. I have
switched all the heating on to come on this evening.

Yay! Bloody well done!

Pete

On 21 Dec, 09:38, "whiskeyomega" wrote:
Finally my husband has said that we have to move house.

Currently we have a two bedroom bungalow in a very rural area . Septic tank,
no mains gas *and an extension ( one room) which has a flat roof and a large
garden - *an acre or *so, all electric which he also hates.

There is little or nothing going wrong with these things right now. We have
had problems with the septic tank in the past ( well a blocked drain but
that was sorted - surely you can have blocked drains on mains drainage too?)

He says another place would be cheaper and we cant afford this one. He
maintains loads of things are wrong with this house but I don't see any of
them when I look around. We have rising damp apparently but its
condensation.

I don't know how much our house is worth but not a lot given its state of
repair - old bathroom, ( avocado suite if you remember those) and old
kitchen and mostly old storage heaters and rather damp right now as a result
of no heating. The guttering leaks at all *joints and the double glazing is
so old it probably needs re doing too.

We don't have a mortgage and no real money worries to be honest.

He wants to move into town into an old peoples unit ( one bed *and *no
garden) *which would cost about £80,000. *It would be leasehold and
maintenance fees are about £500 at the moment.

We would also have to have a water meter and we would *still have storage
heaters as they have no mains gas allowed there either - I think that was
for safety reasons for the elderly.

He is 59 and retired early recently.

I am 50 and still working.

I don't want to move. I would rather try and sort our house out. *I don't
have the skills for this though. I do know my neighbour who is on a water
meter pays £254 a quarter for water *and there is no reason to suppose we
would use less than her. *I currently pay £250 a year in rates for water (
our septic tank means we get reduced rates - we wouldn't get that with a
water meter in SW water) .

Is it bad news to have a house with septic tank and storage heaters and no
mains gas and a flat roof on an extension? Or is he being bloody silly?

Just want opinions really. Thanks.

Oh dear, I remember your previous thread and wondering whether it
would be house or husband which you changed first! Unfortunately the
root cause of the problems seems to be the attitude to the house of
your other half. Clearly he doesn't want to do any maintenance on it
so a flat must look very appealing. Personally there is no way I'd
give up an acre of garden for a retirement flat. I'm sure we can give
you lots of practical advice about the house but I'm not convinced how
useful that would be to you.

May be a couple of things you could try a
1. Learn to do lots of the work yourself. You don't actually have to
get out there and do (all) the work but you'll at least be able to
organise and discuss work with trademan without your husband being
involved.
2. Get the house valued as it is now and as it would be if it was
refurbished. If there is a big enough difference you might persuade
the husband to invest the money doing it up. Then perhaps when it is
done up, he'll be less keen to move.

Matt

In message
,
matthelliwell writes
On 21 Dec, 09:38, "whiskeyomega" wrote:
Finally my husband has said that we have to move house.

You haven't mentioned transport. Could it be that he feels *trapped* in
the house alone while you are out at work? Buy him a bicycle?

Currently we have a two bedroom bungalow in a very rural area . Septic tank,
no mains gas *and an extension ( one room) which has a flat roof and a large
garden - *an acre or *so, all electric which he also hates.

Lots of sensible ideas in other responses but no one has mentioned
additional insulation under the various grant schemes. Bungalows often
have huge lofts suited to the cheapest fibre insulation and you may have
uninsulated cavity walls. Contact your electricity supplier and ask for
advice.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message
,
matthelliwell writes
On 21 Dec, 09:38, "whiskeyomega" wrote:
Finally my husband has said that we have to move house.

You haven't mentioned transport. Could it be that he feels *trapped* in
the house alone while you are out at work? Buy him a bicycle?

He has a car. I have a car. He is never trapped. He chooses not to go out.
I am very afraid though he would row the neighbours if we had any. I am
scared he will argue with callers at home now. He has already rowed the post
man when he called with a parcel I sent for.
Fortunately no one comes here because we are off the beaten track.

I am sure a lot of the issues are because he has retired early. It was not a
choice but at least he got his pension. Had he stayed he might not have his
pension and might still have lost his job.



Lots of sensible ideas in other responses but no one has mentioned
additional insulation under the various grant schemes. Bungalows often
have huge lofts suited to the cheapest fibre insulation and you may have
uninsulated cavity walls. Contact your electricity supplier and ask for
advice.


We have a lot of roof insulation. but this is limited by the fact the roof
is used as a store. Its boarded and used as a tool room. We don't qualify
for grants for anything.

"whiskeyomega" wrote in message
...

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message
,
matthelliwell writes
On 21 Dec, 09:38, "whiskeyomega" wrote:
Finally my husband has said that we have to move house.

You haven't mentioned transport. Could it be that he feels *trapped* in
the house alone while you are out at work? Buy him a bicycle?

He has a car. I have a car. He is never trapped. He chooses not to go
out. I am very afraid though he would row the neighbours if we had any. I
am scared he will argue with callers at home now. He has already rowed the
post man when he called with a parcel I sent for.
Fortunately no one comes here because we are off the beaten track.

I am sure a lot of the issues are because he has retired early. It was not
a choice but at least he got his pension. Had he stayed he might not have
his pension and might still have lost his job.



Lots of sensible ideas in other responses but no one has mentioned
additional insulation under the various grant schemes. Bungalows often
have huge lofts suited to the cheapest fibre insulation and you may have
uninsulated cavity walls. Contact your electricity supplier and ask for
advice.


We have a lot of roof insulation. but this is limited by the fact the
roof is used as a store. Its boarded and used as a tool room. We don't
qualify for grants for anything.
I am grateful for the replies by the way. At least I know what I might be
able to do, even if getting it done might be more problematic.

On 21 Dec, 11:38, "whiskeyomega" wrote:
"whiskeyomega" wrote in message

...



"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
.. .
In message
,
matthelliwell writes
On 21 Dec, 09:38, "whiskeyomega" wrote:
Finally my husband has said that we have to move house.

You haven't mentioned transport. Could it be that he feels *trapped* in
the house alone while you are out at work? Buy him a bicycle?

He has a car. I have a car. He is never trapped. *He chooses not to go
out. I am very afraid though he would row the neighbours if we had any. I
am scared he will argue with callers at home now. He has already rowed the
post man when he called with a parcel I sent for.
Fortunately no one comes here because we are off the beaten track.

I am sure a lot of the issues are because he has retired early. It was not
a choice but at least he got his pension. Had he stayed he might not have
his pension and might still have lost his job.

Lots of sensible ideas in other responses but no one has mentioned
additional insulation under the various grant schemes. Bungalows often
have huge lofts suited to the cheapest fibre insulation and you may have
uninsulated cavity walls. Contact your electricity supplier and ask for
advice.

We have a lot of roof insulation. *but this is limited by the fact the
roof is used as a store. Its boarded and used as a tool room. *We don't
qualify for grants for anything.

I am grateful for the replies by the way. *At least I know what I might be
able to do, even if getting it done might be more problematic.

I'm afraid this isn't going to be too helpful in some respects - but
speaking woman to woman, get the house done up, sell it, have your
half (I assume you went in to it on a 50/50 basis)...and run like
buggery.

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:32:49 -0000, whiskeyomega wrote:

We don't qualify for grants for anything.

I wouldn't be so sure unless you have really dug quite hard.
Admitedly 59 might be to young but after his birthday it might not
be. And the power company funded things tend not to have age
restrictions on them but may require the receipt of a "benefit",
commonly one is Working Tax Credit and with your low combined income
I suspect you may well qualify for that...

You mention a few health problems with hubby and he appears to be
lethargic and lacking any motivation. Has he has his thyroid checked?
Underactive thyroid has that sort of symptoms. It's not a routine
test and the medical profession can be very blinkered and
specialist/consultants not look at the whole body/health/system just
their little specialisum.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 21/12/2009 11:32, whiskeyomega wrote:

He has a car. I have a car. He is never trapped. He chooses not to go
out. I am very afraid though he would row the neighbours if we had any.
I am scared he will argue with callers at home now. He has already rowed
the post man when he called with a parcel I sent for.

This is consistent with clinical depression, which is not unusual in
people recently retired and not quite sure what they should be doing.


--

Bernard Peek
wibbled on Monday 21 December 2009 12:51

On 21/12/2009 11:32, whiskeyomega wrote:

He has a car. I have a car. He is never trapped. He chooses not to go
out. I am very afraid though he would row the neighbours if we had any.
I am scared he will argue with callers at home now. He has already rowed
the post man when he called with a parcel I sent for.

This is consistent with clinical depression, which is not unusual in
people recently retired and not quite sure what they should be doing.



Is there a preserved railway nearby? Buy him a boiler suit and tell him he's
joining! Preserved railway work can be very suitable for people who aren't
keen on people in general. Lots of near solitary work of all types as well
as group work, feeling like you are doing something and the opportunity if
wished to converse with others in a guaranteed chav free zone.

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

In message , Bernard Peek
writes
On 21/12/2009 11:32, whiskeyomega wrote:

He has a car. I have a car. He is never trapped. He chooses not to go
out. I am very afraid though he would row the neighbours if we had any.
I am scared he will argue with callers at home now. He has already rowed
the post man when he called with a parcel I sent for.

This is consistent with clinical depression, which is not unusual in
people recently retired and not quite sure what they should be doing.


And ...

Telling someone with clinical depression to "snap out of it" isn't going
to work

You have to get him to admit to himself that there is a problem and that
it's a medical condition for which he needs medical help

Clinical depression is not something to be ashamed of, its a medical
condition which needs attention, and the end of the tunnel can seem a
long way away

He will need support, but not pandering to. Don't be soft

He quite probably needs to talk to someone (or a group) about it. You
are probably not the best person for that as you are too close and he
might feel embarrassed and weak opening himself up to you

Go and have a chat with your GP and see what he advises. At the end of
the day its your life and his life and you only get one take

I'd better stop - I don't do soft and sensitive very well ...


--
geoff

On 21 Dec, 11:32, "whiskeyomega" wrote:

We have a lot of roof insulation. *but this is limited by the fact the roof
is used as a store. Its boarded and used as a tool room. *We don't qualify
for grants for anything.

You qualify for a lot of "insulation grants" because we all do - £1 /
roll insulation for one (check the moneysavingexpert & npower web
sites for regular offers under CERT). Although you say you have "a
lot" of roof insulation, ideas of insulation levels have increased in
recent decades. Certainly my parent's wind-swept bungalow was "heavily
insulated" in the '80s after they bought it, but I regard it as very
poorly insulated today.

Looking to the future, I'd base your possible stay/move choice much
more on how isolated your location is, not on the bungalow/flat
choice. My parents' "retirement bungalow" was bought a couple of years
(age-wise) after yours and they saw 20 years of very active gardening
and pottering there. Their heating choice was coke C/H, as they didn't
have a gas connection either. Mum died a couple of years ago, Dad has
now moved into a nursing home, but the time when "sheltered
accomodation" would have been actually useful to them (given that they
already had a well-sorted bungalow in a good area, albeit slightly
isolated) was very short - maybe 6 months at most.

Sounds like your husband needs to take up gardening 8-)

Andy Dingley wrote:
Looking to the future, I'd base your possible stay/move choice much
more on how isolated your location is, not on the bungalow/flat
choice. My parents' "retirement bungalow" was bought a couple of years
(age-wise) after yours and they saw 20 years of very active gardening
and pottering there. Their heating choice was coke C/H, as they didn't
have a gas connection either. Mum died a couple of years ago, Dad has
now moved into a nursing home, but the time when "sheltered
accomodation" would have been actually useful to them (given that they
already had a well-sorted bungalow in a good area, albeit slightly
isolated) was very short - maybe 6 months at most.

Sounds like your husband needs to take up gardening 8-)

Vegetable gardening - he could save on food bills that way.

In message , whiskeyomega
writes

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
.. .
In message
,
matthelliwell writes
On 21 Dec, 09:38, "whiskeyomega" wrote:
Finally my husband has said that we have to move house.

You haven't mentioned transport. Could it be that he feels *trapped*
in the house alone while you are out at work? Buy him a bicycle?

He has a car. I have a car. He is never trapped. He chooses not to go
out. I am very afraid though he would row the neighbours if we had any.
I am scared he will argue with callers at home now. He has already
rowed the post man when he called with a parcel I sent for.
Fortunately no one comes here because we are off the beaten track.

I am sure a lot of the issues are because he has retired early. It was
not a choice but at least he got his pension. Had he stayed he might
not have his pension and might still have lost his job.



So he has too much time to get bogged down in trivial -problems

He needs a project / purpose to give him a bit of meaning in life


--
geoff

On 21/12/2009 11:05, Tim Lamb wrote:

Lots of sensible ideas in other responses but no one has mentioned
additional insulation under the various grant schemes. Bungalows often
have huge lofts suited to the cheapest fibre insulation and you may have
uninsulated cavity walls. Contact your electricity supplier and ask for
advice.

The "Warm Front" grants kick in when anyone in the house is 60. They
will pay for draughtproofing, double-glazing, cavity-wall insulation,
loft insulation and central heating. You can apply online.

http://www.warmfront.co.uk/do-i-qualify.htm


--

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:48:02 +0000, Bernard Peek wrote:

The "Warm Front" grants kick in when anyone in the house is 60. They
will pay for draughtproofing, double-glazing, cavity-wall insulation,
loft insulation and central heating. You can apply online.

But do a search on Warmfront here first... Too many cowboys doing the
work that you have no option but to use. There is no mechanisium for
you to choose your own known and trusted trades person to do the
work.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:48:02 +0000, Bernard Peek wrote:

The "Warm Front" grants kick in when anyone in the house is 60. They
will pay for draughtproofing, double-glazing, cavity-wall insulation,
loft insulation and central heating. You can apply online.

But do a search on Warmfront here first... Too many cowboys doing the
work that you have no option but to use. There is no mechanisium for
you to choose your own known and trusted trades person to do the
work.

He isn't 60 until February.

I thought it depended on being in receipt of benefits and not having any
savings. We have savings because he insists on saving and keeps putting it
all into ISA's and saving accounts, even though now most don't give much
above 3% interest.

He is obsessed with saving , so we cant get any benefits. But as I said,
his pension ( occupational - he wont get a state pension until 65) is £200
a week. I also earn £200 a week in my job. So we are not on the bread line.
He just keeps saying we will be if we don't save and save and save.

I wont get a pension until I am over 65 because of changes in the pension
pay outs recently.

I will be 50 next April.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:48:02 +0000, Bernard Peek wrote:

The "Warm Front" grants kick in when anyone in the house is 60. They
will pay for draughtproofing, double-glazing, cavity-wall insulation,
loft insulation and central heating. You can apply online.

But do a search on Warmfront here first... Too many cowboys doing the
work that you have no option but to use. There is no mechanisium for
you to choose your own known and trusted trades person to do the
work.

However they do thousands of homes and you only get a few here complaining.
They did a good job on my dads.
It did cost me a £100 extra to have a towel rail fitted as an extra.

In message
,
matthelliwell writes
On 21 Dec, 09:38, "whiskeyomega" wrote:
Finally my husband has said that we have to move house.


We would also have to have a water meter and we would *still have storage
heaters as they have no mains gas allowed there either - I think that was
for safety reasons for the elderly.

He is 59 and retired early recently.

I am 50 and still working.

I don't want to move. I would rather try and sort our house out. *I don't
have the skills for this though. I do know my neighbour who is on a water
meter pays £254 a quarter for water *and there is no reason to suppose we
would use less than her. *I currently pay £250 a year in rates for water (
our septic tank means we get reduced rates - we wouldn't get that with a
water meter in SW water) .

Is it bad news to have a house with septic tank and storage heaters and no
mains gas and a flat roof on an extension? Or is he being bloody silly?

Just want opinions really. Thanks.

Oh dear, I remember your previous thread and wondering whether it
would be house or husband which you changed first! Unfortunately the
root cause of the problems seems to be the attitude to the house of
your other half. Clearly he doesn't want to do any maintenance on it
so a flat must look very appealing. Personally there is no way I'd
give up an acre of garden for a retirement flat. I'm sure we can give
you lots of practical advice about the house but I'm not convinced how
useful that would be to you.

May be a couple of things you could try a
1. Learn to do lots of the work yourself. You don't actually have to
get out there and do (all) the work but you'll at least be able to
organise and discuss work with trademan without your husband being
involved.
2. Get the house valued as it is now and as it would be if it was
refurbished. If there is a big enough difference you might persuade
the husband to invest the money doing it up. Then perhaps when it is
done up, he'll be less keen to move.

And ...

don't be timid and scared to post here

plenty of experience and the worst that can happen is you won't get a
reply to a post

I have 4 years on you and there are plenty of older farts around, don't
get old before your time

Have another look at the various grants available for insulation,
central heating etc, You might be surprised Ask your social services and
/or CAB



--
geoff

"whiskeyomega" @invalid
wibbled on Monday 21 December 2009 09:38

Finally my husband has said that we have to move house.

Currently we have a two bedroom bungalow in a very rural area . Septic
tank,
no mains gas and an extension ( one room) which has a flat roof and a
large
garden - an acre or so, all electric which he also hates.

I can sympathise with the all-electric. I have no CH so am watching my meter
spin like the little girl's head in The Exorcist! Coal fire helps though.

There is little or nothing going wrong with these things right now. We
have had problems with the septic tank in the past ( well a blocked drain
but that was sorted - surely you can have blocked drains on mains drainage
too?)

Of course. I have a bungalow in a semi rural area. Have mains everything
(gas came about 15 years back) but i do have a shared private sewer running
down my garden - if that ever breaks I'll be crying.

Flat roofs are fundamentally less good than pitched roofs, but if they are
well felted by someone competant (or if smaller, leaded) they should see
good service before needing redoing.

He says another place would be cheaper and we cant afford this one. He
maintains loads of things are wrong with this house but I don't see any of
them when I look around. We have rising damp apparently but its
condensation.

Rising damp is one of those ill understood things used to sell random cures.

Is any wood actually going rotten? Any black staining on the walls?
Is there a simpler cure, eg removing earth banked up over teh DPC in the
wall outside, or just adding some ventilation?


I don't know how much our house is worth but not a lot given its state of
repair - old bathroom, ( avocado suite if you remember those) and old
kitchen and mostly old storage heaters and rather damp right now as a
result
of no heating. The guttering leaks at all joints and the double glazing
is so old it probably needs re doing too.

You'd be surprised. A major fraction of the worth is in the land alone. If
the building shell is solid, then the worst price knock down would be to
refit internal things, eg add CH, electrics, plumbing or whatever you think
might need doing. Most honest estate agents say don't bother. You'll be
lucky to make a profit on such works - better to sell to someone who can do
it their way to their tastes.

Sure - a nicely presented house with everything in tip top condition will
sell quicker and for more, but it's still fine to sell a "fixer upper"

Given teh state of the market, presumably you can afford to wait for a
sensible offer? Selling in a rush right now isn't such a good idea, but
people are buying - just more slowly.

We don't have a mortgage and no real money worries to be honest.

He wants to move into town into an old peoples unit ( one bed and no
garden) which would cost about £80,000. It would be leasehold and
maintenance fees are about £500 at the moment.

Assuming such places are generally available, or you can reserve one, take
your time...

We would also have to have a water meter and we would still have storage
heaters as they have no mains gas allowed there either - I think that was
for safety reasons for the elderly.

They could have central heating if they wanted?...

He is 59 and retired early recently.

I am 50 and still working.

I don't want to move. I would rather try and sort our house out. I don't
have the skills for this though. I do know my neighbour who is on a water
meter pays £254 a quarter for water and there is no reason to suppose we
would use less than her. I currently pay £250 a year in rates for water (
our septic tank means we get reduced rates - we wouldn't get that with a
water meter in SW water) .

If your are going to sell, forget the water meter. Leave it to the next
occupant to decide. If you aren't, perhaps try to estimate your usage and
see if it works for you.

Is it bad news to have a house with septic tank and storage heaters and no
mains gas and a flat roof on an extension? Or is he being bloody silly?

He has a point - but lots of people have some/all of those. When was the
flat roof last re-covered? How long does the septic tank last between
emptyings? Is it practical to replace it with some sort of digester?

You could look at oil or propane gas (big white cylinder in the garden,
filled by truck in much the same way as oil). Don;t know what the relative
economics are at the moment vs Economy 7 - liquid fuels go all over the
place pricing wise.

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

"Tim W" wrote in message
...
"whiskeyomega" @invalid
wibbled on Monday 21 December 2009 09:38


We would also have to have a water meter and we would still have storage
heaters as they have no mains gas allowed there either - I think that was
for safety reasons for the elderly.

They could have central heating if they wanted?...

No, thats my whole point. We would still have storage heaters as CH. I cant
see a good reason for moving to that.

I have suggested a bungalow with gas but he doesn't want that.

Oh and he doesn't want neighbours either. Currently we have one neighbour.
In town we would have loads. I dont see his reasoning. He seems brainwashed
by stupid TV ads and economic issues - like redundancy and no money and
such and he thinks those things affect us when they do not.

whiskeyomega wrote:

"Tim W" wrote in message
...
"whiskeyomega" @invalid
wibbled on Monday 21 December 2009 09:38


We would also have to have a water meter and we would still have
storage
heaters as they have no mains gas allowed there either - I think that
was
for safety reasons for the elderly.

They could have central heating if they wanted?...

No, thats my whole point. We would still have storage heaters as CH. I
cant see a good reason for moving to that.

I have suggested a bungalow with gas but he doesn't want that.

Oh and he doesn't want neighbours either. Currently we have one
neighbour. In town we would have loads. I dont see his reasoning. He
seems brainwashed by stupid TV ads and economic issues - like
redundancy and no money and such and he thinks those things affect us
when they do not.

Have you thought about a dehumidifier? Much the same price as a heater
from an appliance shop and VERY much better at getting rid of the damp.

R

Roger Dewhurst wrote:
whiskeyomega wrote:

"Tim W" wrote in message
...
"whiskeyomega" @invalid
wibbled on Monday 21 December 2009 09:38


We would also have to have a water meter and we would still have
storage
heaters as they have no mains gas allowed there either - I think
that was
for safety reasons for the elderly.

They could have central heating if they wanted?...

No, thats my whole point. We would still have storage heaters as CH.
I cant see a good reason for moving to that.

I have suggested a bungalow with gas but he doesn't want that.

Oh and he doesn't want neighbours either. Currently we have one
neighbour. In town we would have loads. I dont see his reasoning. He
seems brainwashed by stupid TV ads and economic issues - like
redundancy and no money and such and he thinks those things affect us
when they do not.

Have you thought about a dehumidifier? Much the same price as a
heater from an appliance shop and VERY much better at getting rid of
the damp.

And generates heat that HWMBO'd will not countenance!

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:47:28 +0000, Tim W wrote:

I can sympathise with the all-electric. I have no CH so am watching my
meter spin like the little girl's head in The Exorcist!

I'm watching the oil level plummet... Fortunately during this cold
spell (-9C on Sunday night, a very brief max of 0.1C in the last 3
days) it has not been windy, otherwise there would be a gurgling
noise coming from the tank...

You'd be surprised. A major fraction of the worth is in the land alone.
If the building shell is solid, then the worst price knock down would be
to refit internal things, eg add CH, electrics, plumbing or whatever you
think might need doing. Most honest estate agents say don't bother.
You'll be lucky to make a profit on such works - better to sell to
someone who can do it their way to their tastes.

Agreed, major refurbing to sell is a waste of time, money and effort.
The chnaces are the people moving in will strip it all out anyway...
A fresh coat of paint here and there and through clean is worth while
but not replacing kitchens/bathrooms etc

You could look at oil or propane gas (big white cylinder in the garden,
filled by truck in much the same way as oil).

Lot of capital cost to install, that would buy a lot of insulation.

Don;t know what the relative economics are at the moment vs Economy 7 -
liquid fuels go all over the place pricing wise.

Last lot of oil I bought (Oct 2009) was 40p/l or roughly 4p/unit. Our
off peak is currently 4.83p/unit but that is not the cheapest tariff
out there. Apr 2008 I paid 50p/l...

I think I'd go for upgrading the all electic heating and making sure
the insulation levels in the walls and roof are has high as they can
be. Maybe strip out any rockwool/glass fibre insulation and replace
with celotex/kingspan as the space is used for storeage.

Mind you there isn't any point in upgrading if it's not going to be
switched on!

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:38:13 +0000, wrote:
Is it bad news to have a house with septic tank and storage heaters and no
mains gas and a flat roof on an extension? Or is he being bloody silly?

We've got a septic system. Drilled well out back for water. 500gal
propane tank for the furnace. Primary heating is via electric.

Septic system probably needs emptying once every 3-4 years, and the cost
is pretty insignificant.

The well has more than adequate flow rate, and for the first time ever I
found water that "tastes nice". Means no water bills of course (but
factoring in the cost of a new well every 25 years or so, it works out
about half the price of typical main water bills)

Electric heating isn't so bad at all - it's all on a cheap-rate
load-controlled tariff, which means it works out cheaper than heating
by gas or oil anyway.

Propane furnace picks up the slack when the electric heating is off. I
don't see how it's any different to mains gas; I think it's comparable in
price. Only 'burden' is checking the tank periodically (usually once a
month during heating season) to know when to re-order (delivery company
gets upset if the tank runs completely empty)

Flat roof: we've got one on an extension (and the front porch). I suspect
they need new material laying once in a while, but for it to be easy
work. So long as the drainage is kept clear I don't think there's
anything inherently wrong with them (although I admit to preferring a
peaked roof just for the loft storage space it gives)

Anyway, not 'bad news' in those terms at all. Maybe you can get some form
of grant to sort out the windows (and/or other energy-saving stuff).

Oh, I did have storage heaters in one house once - hated them. Always
seemed to be no heat available when I actually wanted it.

cheers

Jules

Jules wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:38:13 +0000, wrote:
Is it bad news to have a house with septic tank and storage heaters and no
mains gas and a flat roof on an extension? Or is he being bloody silly?

We've got a septic system. Drilled well out back for water. 500gal
propane tank for the furnace. Primary heating is via electric.

Septic system probably needs emptying once every 3-4 years, and the cost
is pretty insignificant.

The well has more than adequate flow rate, and for the first time ever I
found water that "tastes nice". Means no water bills of course (but
factoring in the cost of a new well every 25 years or so, it works out
about half the price of typical main water bills)

You should not need a new well every 25 years, whatever the well driller
tells you. What you need is a water level sensor that keep you informed
as to the standing water level and the dynamic level when pumping. When
the dynamic level drops noticeably it is time to re-develop the well.
That means blowing it out with compressed air or surging with a plunger
to open up the screen and, if there is one, the gravel pack.

R

On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 12:45:25 +1300, Roger Dewhurst wrote:
The well has more than adequate flow rate, and for the first time ever I
found water that "tastes nice". Means no water bills of course (but
factoring in the cost of a new well every 25 years or so, it works out
about half the price of typical main water bills)

You should not need a new well every 25 years, whatever the well driller
tells you. What you need is a water level sensor that keep you informed
as to the standing water level and the dynamic level when pumping. When
the dynamic level drops noticeably it is time to re-develop the well.
That means blowing it out with compressed air or surging with a plunger
to open up the screen and, if there is one, the gravel pack.

I'd actually wondered if they can be back-flushed to clear out accumulated
debris (because gradual clogging of the screens seems to be what kills
them, long before they rust out). I'm not sure it's possible for ours
though - which is about 80' deep, but with the pump mounted at the
surface (the pump delivers a portion of the pumped water back down a
secondary pipe to the base of the well, and some form of venturi-effect
head is used to get water back up the main 2" pipe).

It's done 24 years now, so in theory is getting on in lifespan - but
there's no sign of it giving up yet; it still seems capable enough. The
surface-pump dates from 1977, but that still functions quite happily. If
flow starts going off I can always pump slowly into a large holding tank
and have another pump drawing water from that tank for house supply - but
I suppose failure mode might be that one day it just stops working
altogether over a very short space of time.

cheers

Jules