Tim W wrote:
geoff
wibbled on Monday 28 September 2009 23:08


All a complete load of ********, if you stop and think about it,
isn't it



So's being an atheist. "We, inclusing the universe, all randomly
appeared by a massive convergence of unlikely chances guided by the
laws of physics and evolutions."

What a load of ******** - who'd believe that tosh?

I would. It makes a lot more sense than the alternative.

Tim D

Mit wrote:
Tim W wrote:
geoff
wibbled on Monday 28 September 2009 23:08


All a complete load of ********, if you stop and think about it,
isn't it



So's being an atheist. "We, inclusing the universe, all randomly
appeared by a massive convergence of unlikely chances guided by the
laws of physics and evolutions."

What a load of ******** - who'd believe that tosh?

I would. It makes a lot more sense than the alternative.


Its not a question of belief.

Its just a way of looking at things, that's all.

The last guy to survive the first world war died this year (or nearly
the last?). Is he Divinely protected? someone had to be the last one to
die..after all.


God myths arise because people project the human question 'Why' which
*implies* intention and premeditation, into the Cosmos.

The correct response is of course 'why not?'

God myths arise because people don't like to face up to the possibility,
that all there endless witterings and strivings for status, and doings
and thinkings, might actually come to an end in a blank wall.

Its very comforting to believe in a hereafter, which is like the here
and now, but with the bad bits surgically removed. Of course that then
gives rise to the ideal tool of mind control, a hereafter with all the
good bits surgically removed, and a set of strictures to make sure you
don't end up there..

haha.

Bernard Madoff has got nothing on St Peter.


Tim D

Mit
wibbled on Wednesday 30 September 2009 11:16

Tim W wrote:
geoff
wibbled on Monday 28 September 2009 23:08


All a complete load of ********, if you stop and think about it,
isn't it



So's being an atheist. "We, inclusing the universe, all randomly
appeared by a massive convergence of unlikely chances guided by the
laws of physics and evolutions."

What a load of ******** - who'd believe that tosh?

I would. It makes a lot more sense than the alternative.

Tim D

I trust you read that as the tongue in cheek way I intended - if not,
apologies. But I do think most of the explanations for life, the universe
and everything are equally incredible - so being an atheist is not
necessary the easy way out!



--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

Tim W wrote:
Mit
wibbled on Wednesday 30 September 2009 11:16

Tim W wrote:
geoff
wibbled on Monday 28 September 2009 23:08


All a complete load of ********, if you stop and think about it,
isn't it


So's being an atheist. "We, inclusing the universe, all randomly
appeared by a massive convergence of unlikely chances guided by the
laws of physics and evolutions."

What a load of ******** - who'd believe that tosh?
I would. It makes a lot more sense than the alternative.

Tim D

I trust you read that as the tongue in cheek way I intended - if not,
apologies. But I do think most of the explanations for life, the universe
and everything are equally incredible - so being an atheist is not
necessary the easy way out!



Occams Razor in action. Why have all that incredibly complex stuff when
one word says it all?

GOD.


Well there is an answer to that question, too.....

The Natural Philosopher
wibbled on Wednesday 30 September 2009 15:09


Occams Razor in action. Why have all that incredibly complex stuff when
one word says it all?

GOD.


Well there is an answer to that question, too.....

You'll probably understand this better than me - I'm not well read on
philosophy...

But, here goes:

A) God. Fine, explains life, the universe and all within. But where did God
come from (any of them)?

B) i) Evolution - OK, no real problem with this. I've seen the experiment
where lightening in a mixture of primeval gases can produce a crude amino
acid slime and am happy to assume given enough lightening and a *long*
time, other stuff can appear. OK, it's highly improbable but I see it as
possible.

B) ii) So, the world and sun - OK, Big bang, lots of gasses, random
coagulation - again, fantastic theory, but looks possible.

B iii) So where did the Big Bang come from? One way or another, a lot of
weird wibbling governed by the laws of physics. So how did those come
about? Are the laws of physics the only self consistent laws, so inherently
complete that they automatically exists (getting a bit Hitch Hiker's here).

It doesn't matter which POV you subscribe too, AFAICS you can run them all
back to a point and say "well, how did that come about then"...

C) Not give a ******** and have another beer... Well, I can sympathise with
this approach.

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The last guy to survive the first world war died this year (or nearly
the last?). Is he Divinely protected? someone had to be the last one to
die..after all.

Claude Choules died? fx rummages in news

Nope. Britons Harry Patch and Henry Allingham died this summer, but
Choules is still going. Not in Britain though, he emigrated to
Australia between the wars. There are 3 (or maybe 5, depending on the
rules) survivors, worldwide.

Choules says that the secret of living a long time is to not die...

Andy

Tim W wrote:
The Natural Philosopher
wibbled on Wednesday 30 September 2009 15:09


Occams Razor in action. Why have all that incredibly complex stuff when
one word says it all?

GOD.


Well there is an answer to that question, too.....

You'll probably understand this better than me - I'm not well read on
philosophy...

But, here goes:

A) God. Fine, explains life, the universe and all within. But where did God
come from (any of them)?

Indeed. Turtles ALL THE WAY DOWN...


B) i) Evolution - OK, no real problem with this. I've seen the experiment
where lightening in a mixture of primeval gases can produce a crude amino
acid slime and am happy to assume given enough lightening and a *long*
time, other stuff can appear. OK, it's highly improbable but I see it as
possible.

Life itself is alarmingly improbable. So is winning the lottery. But
people do.

B) ii) So, the world and sun - OK, Big bang, lots of gasses, random
coagulation - again, fantastic theory, but looks possible.


Look, this is MY take. Every 'world-view' has a creation myth. That is
simply extending the view backwards in time and filling it in with a
picture consistent with the world-view.

Modern world-views of the scientific sort, extend the time-lines
backwards and find a point of convergence, and call that the big bang.
The neat thing is they all meet at the same point, mostly.

Creationists extend it backwards to the estimated beginning of the bible
(because that is the One True Word)and call that God.

Its matter of pure choice whether or not God created all the time lines
really cleverly to make it LOOK as though there was a big bang 50billion
years ago or whatever it was, or whether in fact He did the job then,
and the Bible is only half right, or whether He wasn't there at all.and
the bible is at that level a work of fiction, or talking about something
else entirely (which is my take).




B iii) So where did the Big Bang come from? One way or another, a lot of
weird wibbling governed by the laws of physics. So how did those come
about? Are the laws of physics the only self consistent laws, so inherently
complete that they automatically exists (getting a bit Hitch Hiker's here).


Jolly good question IMHO.

Philosophically speaking you are into metaphysics here anyway.

At some level you have to say 'that's just the way it is'.

It doesn't matter which POV you subscribe too, AFAICS you can run them all
back to a point and say "well, how did that come about then"...


Who says that Causality is a ubiquitious and inviolate principle? (science)
Who says that purpose is an inherent quality of the Universe (God Botherers)
Who says that space time, matter, energy, natural law are inherent
properties of the universe (scientists)

A plague on all there houses!



C) Not give a ******** and have another beer... Well, I can sympathise with
this approach.


The real question, is how much difference does it make *what* you believe.

Andy Champ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The last guy to survive the first world war died this year (or nearly
the last?). Is he Divinely protected? someone had to be the last one
to die..after all.

Claude Choules died? fx rummages in news

Nope. Britons Harry Patch and Henry Allingham died this summer, but
Choules is still going. Not in Britain though, he emigrated to
Australia between the wars. There are 3 (or maybe 5, depending on the
rules) survivors, worldwide.

Choules says that the secret of living a long time is to not die...


I've always felt that breathing played a huge part myself.

Andy