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OTish; When does a step become a deck.
Last October the rules changed and any 'deck' more than 30cm above the
'ground' needs planning permission. I've been communicating with my local authority, who clearly don't understand the (prolly badly drawn) legislation. Very common situation with new builds or extensions is that the patio doors opening onto the garden are say 45cm above the garden level, therefore pretty much unusable. What I'm after is the definition of a 'deck' and 'ground'. If I were to build a step 15cm high leading onto a deck, how big or little would that step have to be before it became a 'deck'? If I built a deck over 30 cm high and built a raised bed level with the edge, how big does that have to be to be classified as 'ground'? Few examples at http://www.medwayhandyman.co.uk/decking_pictures.htm Shaun & Clares deck for example, the garden slopes from left to right, one end is 30cm above ground, the other end is higher. Joe & Terri's deck is 15cm off the ground on one side but a lot more above the grassed area - but would the top off the wall count as 'ground'? Typical govmint legislation. badly thought out. -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
I've been communicating with my local authority, who clearly don't
understand the (prolly badly drawn) legislation. Yep. The Department for Communities and Local Government appear to have ignored requests for clarification on the issues you raise which were made in response to the consultative document. What I'm after is the definition of a 'deck' and 'ground'. On "deck", the legislation actually refers to "a veranda, balcony or raised platform". There's no definition of "raised platform". It *might* be that it'd be construed in the light of "veranda, balcony " . On the other hand it might be that "raised platform" just takes its ordinary meaning (whatever that is). Either way I'd think you'd have a pretty good case for arguing steps ain't a platform. But I ain't a lawyer and what really matters is what the planning officer thinks. If I built a deck over 30 cm high and built a raised bed level with the edge, how big does that have to be to be classified as 'ground'? The consultation document prompted some to comment that the rule on decking needed careful drafting to avoid confusion; and that ground level should take into account slope and pre-existing ground levels. So you can tell how much the department was bothered. But your avoidance device might work (unless of course the bed is over 300mm high and is itself a "raised platform"?) FWIW the ex. memo. to the regulations said that "Shayne Coulson at the Department for Communities and Local Government (tel: 020 7944 8716 or email: ) can answer any queries regarding the instrument" so if you are feeling lucky you could ask him. Of course the chances are he's moved on to a different job since the regulations were made over a year ago :) -- R |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message om... Last October the rules changed and any 'deck' more than 30cm above the 'ground' needs planning permission. I've been communicating with my local authority, who clearly don't understand the (prolly badly drawn) legislation. Very common situation with new builds or extensions is that the patio doors opening onto the garden are say 45cm above the garden level, therefore pretty much unusable. What I'm after is the definition of a 'deck' and 'ground'. If I were to build a step 15cm high leading onto a deck, how big or little would that step have to be before it became a 'deck'? If I built a deck over 30 cm high and built a raised bed level with the edge, how big does that have to be to be classified as 'ground'? I doubt very much that raising the level of the ground outside the decked area is a loop-hole here. tim |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
In message , The Medway
Handyman writes Last October the rules changed and any 'deck' more than 30cm above the 'ground' needs planning permission. Ho ********, I *wish* you hadn't posted that. I've been communicating with my local authority, who clearly don't understand the (prolly badly drawn) legislation. Very common situation with new builds or extensions is that the patio doors opening onto the garden are say 45cm above the garden level, therefore pretty much unusable. What I'm after is the definition of a 'deck' and 'ground'. If I were to build a step 15cm high leading onto a deck, how big or little would that step have to be before it became a 'deck'? If I built a deck over 30 cm high and built a raised bed level with the edge, how big does that have to be to be classified as 'ground'? Few examples at http://www.medwayhandyman.co.uk/decking_pictures.htm Shaun & Clares deck for example, the garden slopes from left to right, one end is 30cm above ground, the other end is higher. Joe & Terri's deck is 15cm off the ground on one side but a lot more above the grassed area - but would the top off the wall count as 'ground'? Typical govmint legislation. badly thought out. -- Clint Sharp |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
Clint Sharp wrote:
In message , The Medway Handyman writes Last October the rules changed and any 'deck' more than 30cm above the 'ground' needs planning permission. Ho ********, I *wish* you hadn't posted that. Do I assume you have just built one then ? Sorry! :-) -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk I've been communicating with my local authority, who clearly don't understand the (prolly badly drawn) legislation. Very common situation with new builds or extensions is that the patio doors opening onto the garden are say 45cm above the garden level, therefore pretty much unusable. What I'm after is the definition of a 'deck' and 'ground'. If I were to build a step 15cm high leading onto a deck, how big or little would that step have to be before it became a 'deck'? If I built a deck over 30 cm high and built a raised bed level with the edge, how big does that have to be to be classified as 'ground'? Few examples at http://www.medwayhandyman.co.uk/decking_pictures.htm Shaun & Clares deck for example, the garden slopes from left to right, one end is 30cm above ground, the other end is higher. Joe & Terri's deck is 15cm off the ground on one side but a lot more above the grassed area - but would the top off the wall count as 'ground'? Typical govmint legislation. badly thought out. |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
The Medway Handyman wrote: Last October the rules changed and any 'deck' more than 30cm above the 'ground' needs planning permission. I've been communicating with my local authority, who clearly don't understand the (prolly badly drawn) legislation. Very common situation with new builds or extensions is that the patio doors opening onto the garden are say 45cm above the garden level, therefore pretty much unusable. What I'm after is the definition of a 'deck' and 'ground'. If I were to build a step 15cm high leading onto a deck, how big or little would that step have to be before it became a 'deck'? Dunno - but a reasonable interpretation may be that a step is a solid object (Brick, concrete, etc.) whereas a deck is a raised wooden structure with fresh air underneath. BTW, in the first example shown in your photos, how the hell do you get to the drains now that they're all boxed in? -- Cheers, Roger ______ Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks. PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP! |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
"Owain" wrote in message ... On 20 Sep, 17:49, "The Medway Handyman" wrote: Clint Sharp wrote: Last October the rules changed and any 'deck' more than 30cm above the 'ground' needs planning permission. Ho ********, I *wish* you hadn't posted that. Do I assume you have just built one then ? Is the wood datestamped or could it be passed off as having been built in September 08? You "only" have to wait two years before the council can do nothing about it anyway (provided that you haven't hidden it from view) I can't imagine that anyone is going to notice a deck that is, say, 60 cm off the ground, and complain, so the regulation seems entirely pointless for low level decks. (and what is the point of it anyway?) tim |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion, The Medway Handyman wrote: Last October the rules changed and any 'deck' more than 30cm above the 'ground' needs planning permission. I've been communicating with my local authority, who clearly don't understand the (prolly badly drawn) legislation. Very common situation with new builds or extensions is that the patio doors opening onto the garden are say 45cm above the garden level, therefore pretty much unusable. What I'm after is the definition of a 'deck' and 'ground'. If I were to build a step 15cm high leading onto a deck, how big or little would that step have to be before it became a 'deck'? Dunno - but a reasonable interpretation may be that a step is a solid object (Brick, concrete, etc.) whereas a deck is a raised wooden structure with fresh air underneath. BTW, in the first example shown in your photos, how the hell do you get to the drains now that they're all boxed in? Funny enough the bloke who owns the house in that picture is - a drain cleaning guy. The boards between the last joist & the wall plate are cut to allow removal of a 40cm length. If there is an inspection cover we build a hatch over it. In either case it can be accessed by removing at most 16 screws. -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
tim..... wrote:
"Owain" wrote in message ... On 20 Sep, 17:49, "The Medway Handyman" wrote: Clint Sharp wrote: Last October the rules changed and any 'deck' more than 30cm above the 'ground' needs planning permission. Ho ********, I *wish* you hadn't posted that. Do I assume you have just built one then ? Is the wood datestamped or could it be passed off as having been built in September 08? You "only" have to wait two years before the council can do nothing about it anyway (provided that you haven't hidden it from view) I can't imagine that anyone is going to notice a deck that is, say, 60 cm off the ground, and complain, so the regulation seems entirely pointless for low level decks. (and what is the point of it anyway?) The only point I can see is that, if you are over 30cm up you might be able to see over your fence & intrude on your neighbours privacy. I mention this when quoting if appropriate and usually get the extra work of installing trellis :-) -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 18:23:59 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
had this to say: The only point I can see is that, if you are over 30cm up you might be able to see over your fence & intrude on your neighbours privacy. I mention this when quoting if appropriate and usually get the extra work of installing trellis :-) http://www.mrs-trellis.co.uk/ -- Frank Erskine |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message om... Last October the rules changed and any 'deck' more than 30cm above the 'ground' needs planning permission. I've been communicating with my local authority, who clearly don't understand the (prolly badly drawn) legislation. Very common situation with new builds or extensions is that the patio doors opening onto the garden are say 45cm above the garden level, therefore pretty much unusable. What I'm after is the definition of a 'deck' and 'ground'. If I were to build a step 15cm high leading onto a deck, how big or little would that step have to be before it became a 'deck'? I would say that a step is something that only has transitory use - in passing from one level to another. As soon as you can use it for another purpose, such as putting a chair on it, it becomes a raised platform. In practice, it will be whatever your local building inspector says it is, unless and until there is a Court rulling on the matter. If I built a deck over 30 cm high and built a raised bed level with the edge, how big does that have to be to be classified as 'ground'?... That is irrelevant. The decking needs planning permission if it is more than 30cm above the *existing* ground level i.e. what it was before you started. On sloping sites, it will be the lowest point on the ground under the decking that counts. Colin Bignell |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 18:23:59 GMT, "The Medway Handyman" had this to say: The only point I can see is that, if you are over 30cm up you might be able to see over your fence & intrude on your neighbours privacy. I mention this when quoting if appropriate and usually get the extra work of installing trellis :-) http://www.mrs-trellis.co.uk/ Excellent! Will you welcome please; Mr & Mrs Decker and their son Desmond. Will you welcome please; Mr & Mrs Decker and their pirate son Black Hand. -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 20:27:40 +0100, a certain chimpanzee, "nightjar"
cpb@insert my surname here.me.uk randomly hit the keyboard and produced: I would say that a step is something that only has transitory use - in passing from one level to another. As soon as you can use it for another purpose, such as putting a chair on it, it becomes a raised platform. In practice, it will be whatever your local building inspector says it is, unless and until there is a Court rulling on the matter. Your local building inspector would rather not be dragged into commenting on planning matters. Whilst the Building Regulations requirements for stairs strictly speaking don't apply to any change in level of less than 600mm in dwellings, nevertheless one could use the guidance as, well, guidance. An exit should have a level landing, clear of any door swinging across it, at least as wide as the stair leading to or from it, and for access to the building for disabled people, landings should be 1200mm as a minimum. So if you had 1500mm wide french doors swinging outwards, then the 'landing' should be 1500mm plus the width of the doors out from the building, say 2250mm. You will then want to make the steps with rises of between 75mm-150mm, and goings of at least 280mm, in order to make them nice and easy for people with limited mobility, or better still a level approach no steeper than 1:20. -- Hugo Nebula "If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this, just how far from the pack have you strayed?" |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
tim..... wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message om... Last October the rules changed and any 'deck' more than 30cm above the 'ground' needs planning permission. I've been communicating with my local authority, who clearly don't understand the (prolly badly drawn) legislation. Very common situation with new builds or extensions is that the patio doors opening onto the garden are say 45cm above the garden level, therefore pretty much unusable. What I'm after is the definition of a 'deck' and 'ground'. If I were to build a step 15cm high leading onto a deck, how big or little would that step have to be before it became a 'deck'? If I built a deck over 30 cm high and built a raised bed level with the edge, how big does that have to be to be classified as 'ground'? I doubt very much that raising the level of the ground outside the decked area is a loop-hole here. I wouldn't look at it as a loop hole, more like landscaping the garden. That has never been illegal. Dave |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message om... Last October the rules changed and any 'deck' more than 30cm above the 'ground' needs planning permission. I've been communicating with my local authority, who clearly don't understand the (prolly badly drawn) legislation. Very common situation with new builds or extensions is that the patio doors opening onto the garden are say 45cm above the garden level, therefore pretty much unusable. What I'm after is the definition of a 'deck' and 'ground'. If I were to build a step 15cm high leading onto a deck, how big or little would that step have to be before it became a 'deck'? I would say that a step is something that only has transitory use - in passing from one level to another. As soon as you can use it for another purpose, such as putting a chair on it, it becomes a raised platform. But if said step is too small to have another use - if it were 30cm wide x 200cm long for example? In practice, it will be whatever your local building inspector says it is, unless and until there is a Court rulling on the matter. AFAIUI the legislation doen't mention building control "Building regulations should be assumed to apply to every structure that requires planning permission". Is about all I can find. -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
If I were to build a step 15cm high leading onto a deck, how
big or little would that step have to be before it became a 'deck'? That which a reasonable person would view it as a "deck". It comes down to a test of reasonableness re planning officer. Legislation context is w.r.t. "overlooking". Magistrates will not entertain an idiot PP over a tiny step provided for implied H&S usage of a deck. Build your deck below 30cm. Build any step sized only to provide safe entry/exit to deck. I see no problem with an intermediate step sized to door-width & stair- depth to adjust 45-35cm house-floor to 30-0cm deck. The deck is below 30cm. The step must not remotely be sized as a "deck" by any reasonable person's interpretation. You can't take the ****, but *they* can try - at their expense and media embarrasment and household insurance lawyers. Full stop. Which PP wants to be the first to put its hand up for cost cutting on Newsnight? |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 10:01:51 -0700, Owain wrote:
On 20 Sep, 17:49, "The Medway Handyman" wrote: Clint Sharp wrote: Last October the rules changed and any 'deck' more than 30cm above the 'ground' needs planning permission. Ho ********, I *wish* you hadn't posted that. Do I assume you have just built one then ? Is the wood datestamped or could it be passed off as having been built in September 08? And if not, is it datestamped now? ;) I am *so* glad there's no such thing as PP where I'm living these days! cheers Jules |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message m... "The Medway Handyman" wrote in message om... Last October the rules changed and any 'deck' more than 30cm above the 'ground' needs planning permission. I've been communicating with my local authority, who clearly don't understand the (prolly badly drawn) legislation. Very common situation with new builds or extensions is that the patio doors opening onto the garden are say 45cm above the garden level, therefore pretty much unusable. What I'm after is the definition of a 'deck' and 'ground'. If I were to build a step 15cm high leading onto a deck, how big or little would that step have to be before it became a 'deck'? I would say that a step is something that only has transitory use - in passing from one level to another. As soon as you can use it for another purpose, such as putting a chair on it, it becomes a raised platform. But if said step is too small to have another use - if it were 30cm wide x 200cm long for example? That is clearly a step. The purpose of this legislation is to control people building decking that gives them a view over their neighbours, property that they would not previously have had. Keep that principle in mind and it should be clear which work requires planning permisssion and which of those are and are not likely to run into any problems getting it. In practice, it will be whatever your local building inspector says it is, unless and until there is a Court rulling on the matter. AFAIUI the legislation doen't mention building control "Building regulations should be assumed to apply to every structure that requires planning permission". Is about all I can find. A senior moment. I meant planning, not building control. Colin Bignell |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:04:03 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:
But if said step is too small to have another use - if it were 30cm wide x 200cm long for example? Everyone here seem to be thinking as "step" as something you could stand or place at least your toes on. A step to me is just a vertical rise, it could be a "small step" of a cm or three of a "big step" of 50cm or more... No doubt this beautifully crafted and entirely thought through bit of legislation(*) has the definition of what a "step" is somewhere within it. (*) Is it actual legislation or just a "reglulation"? -- Cheers Dave. |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
AFAIUI the legislation doen't mention building control "Building regulations should be assumed to apply to every structure that requires planning permission". Is about all I can find. Not True! I can think of examples of things which require planning permission but not building regs - and vice versa! -- Cheers, Roger ______ Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks. PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP! |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Dave Liquorice wrote: On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:04:03 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote: But if said step is too small to have another use - if it were 30cm wide x 200cm long for example? Everyone here seem to be thinking as "step" as something you could stand or place at least your toes on. A step to me is just a vertical rise, it could be a "small step" of a cm or three of a "big step" of 50cm or more... No doubt this beautifully crafted and entirely thought through bit of legislation(*) has the definition of what a "step" is somewhere within it. (*) Is it actual legislation or just a "reglulation"? What's in a name? Some friends of ours were refused planning permission to put an upstairs balcony at the rear of their listed building - so they built a fire escape instead, which just happens to have a fair sized platform at the top! -- Cheers, Roger ______ Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks. PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP! |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:43:11 +0100, Roger Mills wrote:
(*) Is it actual legislation or just a "reglulation"? What's in a name? One has the force of law the other is just a recomendation. Some friends of ours were refused planning permission to put an upstairs balcony at the rear of their listed building - so they built a fire scape instead, which just happens to have a fair sized platform at the top! Love it. There is always more than one way to skin a cat. -- Cheers Dave. |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
"Hugo Nebula" abuse@localhost wrote in message ... On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 20:27:40 +0100, a certain chimpanzee, "nightjar" cpb@insert my surname here.me.uk randomly hit the keyboard and produced: I would say that a step is something that only has transitory use - in passing from one level to another. As soon as you can use it for another purpose, such as putting a chair on it, it becomes a raised platform. In practice, it will be whatever your local building inspector says it is, unless and until there is a Court rulling on the matter. Your local building inspector would rather not be dragged into commenting on planning matters. A senior moment. I meant the planning officer. Whilst the Building Regulations requirements for stairs strictly speaking don't apply to any change in level of less than 600mm in dwellings, nevertheless one could use the guidance as, well, guidance. An exit should have a level landing, clear of any door swinging across it, at least as wide as the stair leading to or from it, and for access to the building for disabled people, landings should be 1200mm as a minimum. So if you had 1500mm wide french doors swinging outwards, then the 'landing' should be 1500mm plus the width of the doors out from the building, say 2250mm. You will then want to make the steps with rises of between 75mm-150mm, and goings of at least 280mm, in order to make them nice and easy for people with limited mobility, or better still a level approach no steeper than 1:20. I don't see anything there that would prevent it being classed as a raised platform under the planning rules. Building it to adapt an entrance for the use of a disabled person would be a good reason to get planning permission, although even adapting a property for use by a disabled person is, as my cousin can attest, no guarantee of permission being granted. Colin Bignell |
OTish; When does a step become a deck.
On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 20:39:03 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:
Will you welcome please; Mr & Mrs Decker and their pirate son Black Hand. Mr and Mrs Wall-carpeting and their son Walter .... (ad infinitum on ISIRTA :-)) -- John Stumbles Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. |
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