Out, in, out, in, then you hit the gin.........

Started on the fence replacement project and the old shortish concrete posts
which had wooden posts bolted to them are proving a bu**er to get out.

They have a lot of concrete below ground and to get them out I need to dig
around a bit, then rock the post until it will tilt, and then gradually drag
the whole sorry thing out.
The posts with the concrete added weigh a significant amount and I am ending
up dragging them along the ground (more of them later).

This leaves an ugly hole about a foot deep and very wide.
What I want in the same location is an 8" wide hole 18" deep, to take the
new post and the concrete around it.

At the moment all I can see to do is fill the hole in, with much tamping
down, then dig the 8" hole in the middle of the newly filled in larger
shallower hole.

Does anyone have a better way to do this?

[I thought of shuttering some of the hole and using a little extra post fix
(at under £4 a bag this is not an expensive option compared to using half a
day filling in and digging out) but I am not sure that the last bit of the
narrower hole (perhaps 6") will be enough to hold the new post upright
until everything has set, when I can remove the shuttering and back fill the
hole.]



Why not use the old posts?
Well, they are not very straight.
In fact some are leaning over at quite an angle.
Given the amount of concrete around the base of the one I have taken out it
makes me wonder how robust the new posts will be.
The old post (once I had removed a few inches of soil around it) rocked
about alarmingly easily.
Also note that some of the old posts are leaning over already.

I am starting to wonder if I should hire an engine hoist to lift the old
posts out - with a strong lift they should come out like a rotten tooth.
This would also reduce the size of the hole from the extraction.

Any advice gratefully received.

Cheers

Dave R

Hitch a rope around the old post (fairly high up), then use a farm
jack to pull them out.

Because you can apply pressure with the jack high on the post, the
force is in exactly the right direction to tug it out.

I injured my back by bear-hugging most of them out, *before* I bought
a farm jack and did it the easy way.

http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=27035

As far as churning up the ground, just accept it will happen.

If the holes are large, hire a cement mixer and make up concrete and
tip a barrowload into each place.

Deep, deep holes and concrete right at the bottom is what keeps posts
vertical. One third of the post underground for very exposed
locations, or very poorly compacted ground.

David WE Roberts wrote:
Out, in, out, in, then you hit the gin.........

Started on the fence replacement project and the old shortish concrete
posts which had wooden posts bolted to them are proving a bu**er to get
out.

They have a lot of concrete below ground and to get them out I need to
dig around a bit, then rock the post until it will tilt, and then
gradually drag the whole sorry thing out.
The posts with the concrete added weigh a significant amount and I am
ending up dragging them along the ground (more of them later).

This leaves an ugly hole about a foot deep and very wide.
What I want in the same location is an 8" wide hole 18" deep, to take
the new post and the concrete around it.

At the moment all I can see to do is fill the hole in, with much tamping
down, then dig the 8" hole in the middle of the newly filled in larger
shallower hole.

Does anyone have a better way to do this?

[I thought of shuttering some of the hole and using a little extra post
fix (at under £4 a bag this is not an expensive option compared to using
half a day filling in and digging out) but I am not sure that the last
bit of the narrower hole (perhaps 6") will be enough to hold the new
post upright until everything has set, when I can remove the shuttering
and back fill the hole.]



Why not use the old posts?
Well, they are not very straight.
In fact some are leaning over at quite an angle.
Given the amount of concrete around the base of the one I have taken out
it makes me wonder how robust the new posts will be.
The old post (once I had removed a few inches of soil around it) rocked
about alarmingly easily.
Also note that some of the old posts are leaning over already.

I am starting to wonder if I should hire an engine hoist to lift the old
posts out - with a strong lift they should come out like a rotten tooth.
This would also reduce the size of the hole from the extraction.

Any advice gratefully received.


Mini digger. Dig around them , use th bucket to push a bit and work
loose, then a strap around and use the bucket to hoick out and the
digger can then drag.

I pulled out tree stumps all over an acre of land using a digger. Mind
you stumps are shallow and broad - the key was to dig around and snap
all the lateral roots. The odd one needed an axe on it.

And a digger makes light work of re-modelling teh landscape too. You can
redistribute soil, and use the front blade to more or less level it.

No garden should be without one. Also good for making new flowerbeds.
And destroying moles habitats




Cheers

Dave R

The old post (once I had removed a few inches of soil around it) rocked
about alarmingly easily.
Also note that some of the old posts are leaning over already.


what about hammering a metal spike down in the hole
then pouring the concrete around it
so its sort of like reinforced upwardly-ish?

[g]

"RubberBiker" wrote in message
...
Hitch a rope around the old post (fairly high up), then use a farm
jack to pull them out.

Because you can apply pressure with the jack high on the post, the
force is in exactly the right direction to tug it out.

I injured my back by bear-hugging most of them out, *before* I bought
a farm jack and did it the easy way.

http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=27035

As far as churning up the ground, just accept it will happen.

If the holes are large, hire a cement mixer and make up concrete and
tip a barrowload into each place.

Deep, deep holes and concrete right at the bottom is what keeps posts
vertical. One third of the post underground for very exposed
locations, or very poorly compacted ground.

Interesting suggestion - only problem I see is that it is not just the post
I have to lift, but a wide plug of concrete around the base as well.
This suggests that I would have to position the jack 4"-6" away from the
post which I guess means that I would have to fashion some kind of framework
for the post to transfer the lifting force.

The ideal solution seems to be an engine lift (chain hoist) and a tripod but
this looks to cost over £100 for the week.

Hiring a cement mixer and making up loads of cement is also likely to be
expensive by the time all the materials have been costed in.
I am looking for a cost effective way - the best I have so far is to make up
some kind of framework (or find a 200mm+ diameter pipe) and fill in around
that, thus avoiding the filling in and digging out of the central hole.

This leaves an ugly hole about a foot deep and very wide.
What I want in the same location is an 8" wide hole 18" deep, to take
the new post and the concrete around it.

At the moment all I can see to do is fill the hole in, with much
tamping down, then dig the 8" hole in the middle of the newly filled
in larger shallower hole.

Does anyone have a better way to do this?


Are you worried deeply about the environment and landfill? If not, can
you source (eg from local builders or decorators) some empty 10 or
(better) 15 litre plastic paint pots? Cut bottom out and use as your
"mould". Back of Excel calcn suggests 15l is a little less than your
8x8x18 inches (which I make to be about 19 litres) but as others have
said you get added benefit from the mass being lower.

One other thought: make your mix weak if you think you (or anyone you
love) might want to remove your posts. I learnt that lesson from
uk.d-i-y only after putting in 10 concrete posts a while back. I now
hope desperately the posts outlast me as I stupidly used a strong mix
that goes rather deep.

--
R

The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

Mini digger. Dig around them , use th bucket to push a bit and work
loose, then a strap around and use the bucket to hoick out and the
digger can then drag.

Just for teh record, how big was the digger?

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
David WE Roberts wrote:
Out, in, out, in, then you hit the gin.........
snip
Mini digger. Dig around them , use th bucket to push a bit and work loose,
then a strap around and use the bucket to hoick out and the digger can
then drag.

I pulled out tree stumps all over an acre of land using a digger. Mind you
stumps are shallow and broad - the key was to dig around and snap all the
lateral roots. The odd one needed an axe on it.

And a digger makes light work of re-modelling teh landscape too. You can
redistribute soil, and use the front blade to more or less level it.

No garden should be without one. Also good for making new flowerbeds. And
destroying moles habitats

Minor problem - how do I get the digger behind the shrubbery?

A new/clear site would suit a mini digger (plus loads of fun to be had) but
this is a mature garden.

I have cleared a passage between the shrubs and the fence wide enough for me
to get through, but no way would I get a digger in there.

Besides, it is unlikely to be cheaper than a hoist to hire.

This is a slow project because I am replacing the fence but keeping as much
of the old fence as possible in place - can't just slash and burn the whole
lot and amalgamate our garden with the next door neighbour's.

"neverwas" wrote in message
om...
This leaves an ugly hole about a foot deep and very wide.
What I want in the same location is an 8" wide hole 18" deep, to take
the new post and the concrete around it.

At the moment all I can see to do is fill the hole in, with much
tamping down, then dig the 8" hole in the middle of the newly filled
in larger shallower hole.

Does anyone have a better way to do this?


Are you worried deeply about the environment and landfill? If not, can you
source (eg from local builders or decorators) some empty 10 or (better) 15
litre plastic paint pots? Cut bottom out and use as your "mould". Back
of Excel calcn suggests 15l is a little less than your 8x8x18 inches
(which I make to be about 19 litres) but as others have said you get
added benefit from the mass being lower.

One other thought: make your mix weak if you think you (or anyone you
love) might want to remove your posts. I learnt that lesson from uk.d-i-y
only after putting in 10 concrete posts a while back. I now hope
desperately the posts outlast me as I stupidly used a strong mix that goes
rather deep.

Thanks - I was looking at 200mm pipe but this appears to be concrete and
therefore likely to be very heavy.

As a first attempt I will use a large plant pot with the bottom cut out and
fill around that - this should get enough depth to be able to hold the post
and I can then work my way upwards by resting the plat pot on the first lot
of postfix and filling around it again.

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...
Out, in, out, in, then you hit the gin.........

Started on the fence replacement project and the old shortish concrete
posts which had wooden posts bolted to them are proving a bu**er to get
out.

They have a lot of concrete below ground and to get them out I need to dig
around a bit, then rock the post until it will tilt, and then gradually
drag the whole sorry thing out.
The posts with the concrete added weigh a significant amount and I am
ending up dragging them along the ground (more of them later).

This leaves an ugly hole about a foot deep and very wide.
What I want in the same location is an 8" wide hole 18" deep, to take the
new post and the concrete around it.

At the moment all I can see to do is fill the hole in, with much tamping
down, then dig the 8" hole in the middle of the newly filled in larger
shallower hole.
snip

Well, what do you know!

Next post in line had no concrete at all around the base.

By the use of a long pole, rope, and the principle of fulcrums and levers I
managed to extract it (with my beautiful assistant jamming the post to stop
it sliding back as I repositioned the rope).

I could even pick the whole thing up and shift it - amazing the difference a
lump of concrete on the end makes!

I am now hoping they concreted in only every other post (or less).

Murphy's law suggests that the nice deep round hole that the post left will
be just a few inches away from where I want to put the new post.

Tim S wrote:
The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

Mini digger. Dig around them , use th bucket to push a bit and work
loose, then a strap around and use the bucket to hoick out and the
digger can then drag.

Just for teh record, how big was the digger?

I think I sued a 3.5 tinne for that exercise.

Mini diggers might just cope with fence posts.

David WE Roberts wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
David WE Roberts wrote:
Out, in, out, in, then you hit the gin.........
snip
Mini digger. Dig around them , use th bucket to push a bit and work
loose, then a strap around and use the bucket to hoick out and the
digger can then drag.

I pulled out tree stumps all over an acre of land using a digger. Mind
you stumps are shallow and broad - the key was to dig around and snap
all the lateral roots. The odd one needed an axe on it.

And a digger makes light work of re-modelling teh landscape too. You
can redistribute soil, and use the front blade to more or less level it.

No garden should be without one. Also good for making new flowerbeds.
And destroying moles habitats

Minor problem - how do I get the digger behind the shrubbery?


Over or through it..;-)

A new/clear site would suit a mini digger (plus loads of fun to be had)
but this is a mature garden.


Mmm. My wife was horrified at the mess left behind 'relax' I said 'in a
year it will all be grass' It was.

Shrubs take a little longer, but 3-4 years is enough to get most back to
where they should be.



I have cleared a passage between the shrubs and the fence wide enough
for me to get through, but no way would I get a digger in there.

Besides, it is unlikely to be cheaper than a hoist to hire.


Its more fun though. About £100 a day.


This is a slow project because I am replacing the fence but keeping as
much of the old fence as possible in place - can't just slash and burn
the whole lot and amalgamate our garden with the next door neighbour's.

Sometimes fiddle and fit is more expensive than trash and replace.


I spent about 6 hours modelling a bit of kitchen to fit an existing
cupboard 'because I like it'

It would have been easiier to build a new one nearly the same..

This suggests that I would have to position the jack 4"-6" away

In practice, they'll find a way past each other. In extremis, you
could put down a few bricks either side with a board across, and sit
the jack on that.

Hiring a cement mixer and making up loads of cement is also likely to be
expensive by the time all the materials have been costed in.

Not really, compared to postcrete.

some kind of framework (or find a 200mm+ diameter pipe) and fill in around
that, thus avoiding the filling in and digging out of the central hole.

You'll just end up with a heavy post that way - it won't be tight up
against undisturbed ground. One good shove (or high wind) and it'll
displace the in-filled ground around it.

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...
Out, in, out, in, then you hit the gin.........

Started on the fence replacement project and the old shortish concrete
posts which had wooden posts bolted to them are proving a bu**er to get
out.

They have a lot of concrete below ground and to get them out I need to dig
around a bit, then rock the post until it will tilt, and then gradually
drag the whole sorry thing out.
The posts with the concrete added weigh a significant amount and I am
ending up dragging them along the ground (more of them later).

This leaves an ugly hole about a foot deep and very wide.
What I want in the same location is an 8" wide hole 18" deep, to take the
new post and the concrete around it.

At the moment all I can see to do is fill the hole in, with much tamping
down, then dig the 8" hole in the middle of the newly filled in larger
shallower hole.

Does anyone have a better way to do this?


What's wrong with using a collection of scaffold poles, with putlocks, to
create a tripod.

Using padstones and wood for each foot, and a block and tackle, I would have
thought they would have pulled out vertically quite easily.

David WE Roberts wrote:

This leaves an ugly hole about a foot deep and very wide.
What I want in the same location is an 8" wide hole 18" deep, to take
the new post and the concrete around it.

Do they *have* to be in the same location? As in, couldn't you site the
first post a couple of feet back along the fence... that way all the new
posts would be offset against the positions of the old ones, which you
wouldn't need to remove, just chop them flush with the ground[1]

David

[1]But not using a circular saw blade on an angle grinder... (qv)

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...
....
Thanks - I was looking at 200mm pipe but this appears to be concrete and
therefore likely to be very heavy...

You can get it in grey uPVC, but I suspect it would be cheaper and I am sure
it would be more secure, just to refill the old hole with new concrete.

Colin Bignell

Lobster wrote:
David WE Roberts wrote:

This leaves an ugly hole about a foot deep and very wide.
What I want in the same location is an 8" wide hole 18" deep, to take
the new post and the concrete around it.

Do they *have* to be in the same location? As in, couldn't you site
the first post a couple of feet back along the fence... that way all
the new posts would be offset against the positions of the old ones,
which you wouldn't need to remove, just chop them flush with the
ground[1]

Very often fences are not exact multiples of panels e.g. 4.5 panels. If you
shift the half panel from one end of the fence to the other the fence line
remains the same but the new posts are 3' away from the old ones.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

David WE Roberts was thinking very hard :
I am starting to wonder if I should hire an engine hoist to lift the old
posts out - with a strong lift they should come out like a rotten tooth.
This would also reduce the size of the hole from the extraction.

How about something similar to a pair of trolley jacks, with a bar
across to do the lifting?

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 12:19:29 +0100, David WE Roberts wrote:

Minor problem - how do I get the digger behind the shrubbery?

Ni!

On Sep 8, 11:26 pm, "David WE Roberts" wrote:

Well, what do you know!

Next post in line had no concrete at all around the base.

By the use of a long pole, rope, and the principle of fulcrums and levers I
managed to extract it (with my beautiful assistant jamming the post to stop
it sliding back as I repositioned the rope).

I could even pick the whole thing up and shift it - amazing the difference a
lump of concrete on the end makes!

I am now hoping they concreted in only every other post (or less).

I will probably shouted down for this, but I have put up many fences
and have almost never put concrete in the hole. All the fences are
standing just fine, some 30 years old.
What is the purpose of the concrete? It just makes the pole bigger in
the ground. It will still move around if the ground shifts and it will
be harder to straighten.
I dig a deep thin hole, put the post in and add the earth (or
builder's mix) a bit at a time and ram it with a one inch pipe.
The only time I used concrete is for a post with a 15 foot gate
attached.

To raise a post, I nail a block of wood on it near the ground, and
clamp it with a couple of clamps. I rest a large bit of timber on the
ground and lever the pole out with a long piece of timber or a
crowbar. That will even lift out a post with concrete attached.

wrote:
On 8 Sep,
"The Medway Handyman" wrote:

Very often fences are not exact multiples of panels e.g. 4.5 panels.
If you shift the half panel from one end of the fence to the other
the fence line remains the same but the new posts are 3' away from
the old ones.


And like Grandad's step, Someone did it 20 years ago!

Didn't say the idea was new or original to me :-)

Still a good idea though.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
m...
wrote:
On 8 Sep,
"The Medway Handyman" wrote:

Very often fences are not exact multiples of panels e.g. 4.5 panels.
If you shift the half panel from one end of the fence to the other
the fence line remains the same but the new posts are 3' away from
the old ones.


And like Grandad's step, Someone did it 20 years ago!

Didn't say the idea was new or original to me :-)

Still a good idea though.

Started with about half a panel offset but the new concrete slotted post
plus panel length is a little shorter than the old wooden post plus panel
length so the old and new holes are getting closer together.

Looks like every other concrete support post has been set in a huge lump of
concrete.
We are using an old concrete post as a battering ram and breaking the posts
off more or less flush with the concrete base which is a few inches below
ground level.
This will work unless/until the holes converge enough that we have to put a
new post where the old post was concreted in.
The alternate posts lift out with a bit of grunt and a very long lever.
It could take half a day and a very big hole to get one of the concrete
bases out.
Hopefully we won't have to.