Hi All,

Any idea if any of the sheds do the 'knock down' brackets you can use
to make a folding (well, take_down) sawhorse please?

If no sheds / local chain has them then I'll order some like these:

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/DKA74

Cheers, T i m

On Jul 6, 12:41*pm, T i m wrote:
Hi All,

Any idea if any of the sheds do the 'knock down' brackets you can use
to make a folding (well, take_down) sawhorse please?

If no sheds / local chain has them then I'll order some like these:

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/DKA74

Cheers, T i m

I've seen "Trestle Dogs" in B&Q.

MBQ

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 05:43:40 -0700 (PDT), "Man at B&Q"
wrote:

On Jul 6, 12:41*pm, T i m wrote:
Hi All,

Any idea if any of the sheds do the 'knock down' brackets you can use
to make a folding (well, take_down) sawhorse please?

If no sheds / local chain has them then I'll order some like these:

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/DKA74

Cheers, T i m

I've seen "Trestle Dogs" in B&Q.

Ah, cheers. Would you know if they can be easily broken down for
transportation or are they a quick assembly one_way sort of thing
would you know please? (I never seem to have much luck finding things
in their online store). ;-(

T i m

Man at B&Q wrote:
On Jul 6, 12:41 pm, T i m wrote:
Hi All,

Any idea if any of the sheds do the 'knock down' brackets you can use
to make a folding (well, take_down) sawhorse please?

If no sheds / local chain has them then I'll order some like these:

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/DKA74

Cheers, T i m

I've seen "Trestle Dogs" in B&Q.

Was that directed by that Taranteno bloke?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 6 July, 12:41, T i m wrote:

Any idea if any of the sheds do the 'knock down' brackets you can use
to make a folding (well, take_down) sawhorse please?

They used to once, I had a set (the orange steel folders), gave them
away as not worth the trouble.

It's easy to make trestles, and easy to make stacking ones. Once you
have a couple or more trestles then they take up no more space stacked
than they do folded, so why go for folders with the risk of
wobbliness?

My take on trestles:

* Thick tops (extra deep rail) with no metal in them nearer the
surface than the depth of your circular saw. Then just cut through the
things carelessly. This makes many tasks far easier, doesn't wear the
trestles out as quickly as you expect and you can always fix them in a
few years.

* Stacking is most easily done by making them shorter by the leg
length (in sets of 3 or 4), not bu complicated nesting geometries.
They just don't need to all be the same length.

* You can't have trestles that are too strong, or too stiff. Ply side
panels is the easiest way to achieve stiffness.

* Folding isn't worth it.

* If you need them car portable, go for steel instead. Buy Aldi's.

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 05:49:54 -0700 (PDT), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On 6 July, 12:41, T i m wrote:

Any idea if any of the sheds do the 'knock down' brackets you can use
to make a folding (well, take_down) sawhorse please?

They used to once, I had a set (the orange steel folders), gave them
away as not worth the trouble.

I also have the black / yellow plastic jobbies and whilst certainly
not rigid are currently in the garden happily supporting 2 x 8' x 6" x
6" x 1/4" steel gate posts I'm preparing. Not 'nice' to hand saw on
though granted.

It's easy to make trestles, and easy to make stacking ones. Once you
have a couple or more trestles then they take up no more space stacked
than they do folded, so why go for folders with the risk of
wobbliness?

I agree, for workshop use and I have a lovely pair I remember making
from flat pack years ago that have served me well so far.

My take on trestles:

* Thick tops (extra deep rail) with no metal in them nearer the
surface than the depth of your circular saw. Then just cut through the
things carelessly. This makes many tasks far easier, doesn't wear the
trestles out as quickly as you expect and you can always fix them in a
few years.

Yup. Mine are showing a few battle scars (saw cuts, drill holes, paint
and weld burns etc).

* Stacking is most easily done by making them shorter by the leg
length (in sets of 3 or 4), not bu complicated nesting geometries.
They just don't need to all be the same length.

Understood.

* You can't have trestles that are too strong, or too stiff. Ply side
panels is the easiest way to achieve stiffness.

Agreed. Nothing better to work on.

* Folding isn't worth it.

* If you need them car portable, go for steel instead. Buy Aldi's.

I'll look at Aldi's but in this case I think I'm still going to try
the brackets because this isn't actually to make a sawhorse (although
your points above still apply) but a shaving horse. Daughter is
interested in doing some hand carving (see Frosts tool enquiry ^^) and
a shaving horse seems to be one of those things that goes with the
bodger / bush craft thing (she currently an apprentice Tree Surgeon
hence the connection and easy access to raw materials etc).

I have found various d-i-y shave horse styles and plans and they range
for very rustic (raw tree sections inc bark etc) to highly
'engineered' versions but none would break down well enough to fit in
the boot of her Ka. ;-)

eg http://www.greenwoodworking.com/shavehighres.jpg

So ... I though that even though these brackets may not be perfect I
feel the forces involved are generally between shaver and object
rather than object and ground etc?

In any case this might be just a Mk1 and if she doesn't follow it
though then I've got myself some bits to make a couple more saw horses
if / when I need them. ;-)

Cheers, T i m.

On 6 July, 14:24, T i m wrote:

a shaving horse.

Looked at Wikipedia and Wikicommons (for pictures)? There was an
article up there once (I wrote it), although some f*ckwit then tagged
it for deletion so I don't know if it's still there. There are also
the usual canon of green wood books (Abbot, Dunbar) and also the
Taunton workbench book has something on shave horses.

She'll need about five shave horses, then throw four of them away for
firewood and keep the one she likes. There's a bit of personal choice,
a bit of personal comfort about just which log is comfiest to sit on,
then a lot about the style of dog-head being appropriate for the
particular work you're doing.

What shape of dog head?

How many treadle levers, one or two?

Is the clamp on a raised sub-base above the bench? (German style)

What leverage ratio in the lever? (This is a good argument for a
raised sub-bench)


The easiest bench to build is a low bench with two side levers. These
are simplest but don't (IMHO) work too well. In particular, you're
working very low down with your drawknife and that's close to your
thighs.

It's also not really a bench, just a log - so you can make it out of
anything sittable, it doesn't have to be wide or flat.

So ... I though that even though these brackets may not be perfect I
feel the forces involved are generally between shaver and object
rather than object and ground etc?

Nope, they're racking forces in the top joints of those legs. Clamping
force is high too (esp. with a sub-bench), but as that's a pretty
rigid assembly, then it's not a problem.

Experts can use any old rubbish. Beginners aren't so good with a
drawknife so they push and pull the thing all over the place and
wrestle the bench around over the floor. It's quite common for someone
to use a shave horse happily for years, then run a weekend course with
it and have the thing rattling loose by the end of it!

It's traditional Windosr making to take a green log and shrink it over
some dry legs to make a long-lived tight leg tenon. Still not easy to
get right first time though, so if in doubt, brace the legs. If I were
making a demonutable, I'd probably make a single rail the whole length
of the bench and set it just above ground level. Maybe make the ends a
"hay rake" style (Y shaped) rather than a H shape. Then every joint is
boltable and it'll fit into a car.

Real fix though is to dump the Ka and accept her natural destiny of
either a Volvo estate or a Landie.

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 08:23:04 -0700 (PDT), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On 6 July, 14:24, T i m wrote:

a shaving horse.

Looked at Wikipedia and Wikicommons (for pictures)?

No but I've seen loads elsewhere.

There was an
article up there once (I wrote it), although some f*ckwit then tagged
it for deletion so I don't know if it's still there.

Oh. ;-(

There are also
the usual canon of green wood books (Abbot, Dunbar) and also the
Taunton workbench book has something on shave horses.

Ok. I think someone on an Arb forum has recommended something.

She'll need about five shave horses, then throw four of them away for
firewood and keep the one she likes.

Hehe.

There's a bit of personal choice,
a bit of personal comfort about just which log is comfiest to sit on,
then a lot about the style of dog-head being appropriate for the
particular work you're doing.

Ok.

What shape of dog head?

I was thinking of the more English rectangular frame style as she's
only going to be doing spoons etc to start with.

How many treadle levers, one or two?

One.

Is the clamp on a raised sub-base above the bench? (German style)

Adjustable raised bed (wedge), yes.

What leverage ratio in the lever? (This is a good argument for a
raised sub-bench)

42? ;-)

Again, because she's potentially only doing spoons (and only some of
that on the shaving bench) I'm not too keen to spend too much time /
effort with her on this bit, especially as none of us have done
anything like this before (I've done turning and plenty of woodwork in
general (inc building a boat) but no carving). Personally, I'm not
into 'decoration' and if I want a wooden spoon I can get 10 for a
pound up the road. That's not the point though eh. ;-)


The easiest bench to build is a low bench with two side levers. These
are simplest but don't (IMHO) work too well. In particular, you're
working very low down with your drawknife and that's close to your
thighs.

I read that the work should generally aim at your belly button?

It's also not really a bench, just a log - so you can make it out of
anything sittable, it doesn't have to be wide or flat.

http://www.bloodandsawdust.com/Images/english.gif

I've read comment that the three legged variety can be a bit unstable
if working on a bigger branch (when you aren't sitting on the bench
etc).

So ... I though that even though these brackets may not be perfect I
feel the forces involved are generally between shaver and object
rather than object and ground etc?

Nope, they're racking forces in the top joints of those legs.

Ok.

Clamping
force is high too (esp. with a sub-bench), but as that's a pretty
rigid assembly, then it's not a problem.

Ok.

Experts can use any old rubbish.

Same as shooting, playing instruments and most other fields then.

Beginners aren't so good with a
drawknife so they push and pull the thing all over the place and
wrestle the bench around over the floor.

LOL

It's quite common for someone
to use a shave horse happily for years, then run a weekend course with
it and have the thing rattling loose by the end of it!

Again, isn't that often the case. ;-(

It's traditional Windosr making to take a green log and shrink it over
some dry legs to make a long-lived tight leg tenon. Still not easy to
get right first time though, so if in doubt, brace the legs.

Or use the bolt up bracket on some 4x2 (for the Mk1 anyway). ;-)

If I were
making a demonutable, I'd probably make a single rail the whole length
of the bench and set it just above ground level. Maybe make the ends a
"hay rake" style (Y shaped) rather than a H shape. Then every joint is
boltable and it'll fit into a car.

Understood. If these brackets proved unstable (against racking) I was
going to include a diagonal brace from the rear legs up under the main
bed (or two steel tubes with the ends flattened off or some flat
welded in and bolt / wing nut through).

Real fix though is to dump the Ka and accept her natural destiny of
either a Volvo estate or a Landie.

Sssssshhhh!!!

I 'chose' the Ka because it was offered to us cheap, was economical to
fix, run and insure. It's also got power steering and airbags (and
goes well as it's small and 1300). I've told her as soon as she passes
her test she can have wheat she likes as long as she buys and runs it.
What she would *love* is a SWB Series Landy (and if a bit beaten up
and covered in mud the better). In the meantime she seems happy on her
hand painted green MZ 251 (the Landy of the bike world?).

She has carried 10 rubble sacks of full kindling she's chopped up in
the back of the Ka so it can be a bit useful. ;-)

T i m