Watched a TV show t'other night called 'I didn't know that' or something,
anywho it was a 'green' episode.

The two presenters called in a 'green consultant' A Sloan ranger called
Gimima/Cordelia/Arabella or similar.

She went around the house making suggestions about how to reduce energy
costs, obviously educated well beyond her natural intelligence.

One of the first things she suggested was a 'Savaplug' to reduce the
electricity consumed by the fridge. Sounded like pure snake oil to me.

Its become an industry this green movement. Think I might set up as The
Medway Green Consultant & go around spouting rubbish for suitably high fees.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Medway Handyman wrote:

Watched a TV show t'other night called 'I didn't know that' or something,
anywho it was a 'green' episode.

The two presenters called in a 'green consultant' A Sloan ranger called
Gimima/Cordelia/Arabella or similar.

She went around the house making suggestions about how to reduce energy
costs, obviously educated well beyond her natural intelligence.

One of the first things she suggested was a 'Savaplug' to reduce the
electricity consumed by the fridge. Sounded like pure snake oil to me.

what these do is deliver full power to the fridge during startup, then
reign power back by chopping the waveform to reduce consumption once
the compressor is running. They do work. Theyre increasingly becoming
incompatible with new machines that already have such tech built in
though.


Its become an industry this green movement. Think I might set up as The
Medway Green Consultant & go around spouting rubbish for suitably high fees.

an industry that costs the country left right and centre.


NT

In article
,
wrote:
what these do is deliver full power to the fridge during startup, then
reign power back by chopping the waveform to reduce consumption once
the compressor is running. They do work. Theyre increasingly becoming
incompatible with new machines that already have such tech built in
though.

Hmm. If you reduce the power to the compressor motor surely it will just
run longer to achieve the desired temperature? And likely with the motor
being not as efficient too, since they're designed for a sine wave. Then
there will be the heat produced by the chopper inside the magic plug.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
,
wrote:
what these do is deliver full power to the fridge during startup, then
reign power back by chopping the waveform to reduce consumption once
the compressor is running. They do work. Theyre increasingly becoming
incompatible with new machines that already have such tech built in
though.

Hmm. If you reduce the power to the compressor motor surely it will just
run longer to achieve the desired temperature? And likely with the motor
being not as efficient too, since they're designed for a sine wave. Then
there will be the heat produced by the chopper inside the magic plug.

I was sceptical until I saw them in use in a supermarket, (Iceland I think)

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

Graham. wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
,
wrote:
what these do is deliver full power to the fridge during startup, then
reign power back by chopping the waveform to reduce consumption once
the compressor is running. They do work. Theyre increasingly becoming
incompatible with new machines that already have such tech built in
though.
Hmm. If you reduce the power to the compressor motor surely it will just
run longer to achieve the desired temperature? And likely with the motor
being not as efficient too, since they're designed for a sine wave. Then
there will be the heat produced by the chopper inside the magic plug.

I was sceptical until I saw them in use in a supermarket, (Iceland I think)

What you really are trying to do is tune the motor for enough starting
torque to start, and efficiency when running.

These are to an extent in contradiction, so scope for better efficiency
probably exists.

However I am dubious than any 'one size fits all' box is likely to be
the best resolution: what is more needed is proper electronic control
built into they fridge.

However as with most ecobollox, the savings are really small compared
with e.g. Not using te car *every* day etc etc.

So in the end its just another sop to green conscience that doesnt
affect overall consumption that much anyway.

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 11:52:36 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
snip
What you really are trying to do is tune the motor for enough starting
torque to start, and efficiency when running.

These are to an extent in contradiction, so scope for better efficiency
probably exists.

However I am dubious than any 'one size fits all' box is likely to be
the best resolution: what is more needed is proper electronic control
built into they fridge.

However as with most ecobollox, the savings are really small compared
with e.g. Not using te car *every* day etc etc.

So in the end its just another sop to green conscience that doesnt
affect overall consumption that much anyway.

I suspect that any savings such a device may have given may be just as
easily gained by simpler and more practical means - such as decanting
milk into a jug kept by the kettle to save opening the fridge every
time a cuppa is brewed, or buying a decent fridge thermometer and
setting the fridge with greater accuracy.

Regards,


--
Steve ( out in the sticks )
Email: Take time to reply: timefrom_usenet{at}gmx.net

In article ,
Graham. wrote:
Hmm. If you reduce the power to the compressor motor surely it will
just run longer to achieve the desired temperature? And likely with
the motor being not as efficient too, since they're designed for a
sine wave. Then there will be the heat produced by the chopper inside
the magic plug.

I was sceptical until I saw them in use in a supermarket, (Iceland I
think)

Oh I'm sure you could improve the efficiency of a basic freezer. But I'm
not convinced it can be done with a plug in device.

--
*Ah, I see the f**k-up fairy has visited us again

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 6 Jun 2009 11:45:11 +0100 someone who may be "Graham."
wrote this:-

I was sceptical until I saw them in use in a supermarket, (Iceland I think)

I believe they were involved in engineering the things and they
measured the reduction in electricity consumption after they were
fitted in a shop.

As has been said, it is so effective that the same thing is now
built into "modern" [1] fridges and freezers (the savings are
greater with freezers as the motor generally runs for longer). I
imagine that is why they have discontinued making them.

[1] at least the last decade, perhaps two decades.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"David Hansen" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 6 Jun 2009 11:45:11 +0100 someone who may be "Graham."
wrote this:-

I was sceptical until I saw them in use in a supermarket, (Iceland I
think)

I believe they were involved in engineering the things and they
measured the reduction in electricity consumption after they were
fitted in a shop.

As has been said, it is so effective that the same thing is now
built into "modern" [1] fridges and freezers (the savings are
greater with freezers as the motor generally runs for longer). I
imagine that is why they have discontinued making them.

[1] at least the last decade, perhaps two decades.

My Bosh fridge freezer certainly has a triac controlled compressor
but it hadn't occurred to me that it might be operating other than a switch

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
what these do is deliver full power to the fridge during startup, then
reign power back by chopping the waveform to reduce consumption once
the compressor is running. They do work. Theyre increasingly becoming
incompatible with new machines that already have such tech built in
though.

Hmm. If you reduce the power to the compressor motor surely it will just
run longer to achieve the desired temperature?

makes no difference to motor speed.
Compressor motors need enough torque to start, but once running need
much less. These are induction motors, not universal types.


And likely with the motor
being not as efficient too, since they're designed for a sine wave.

same speed, less power use = more efficient

Then
there will be the heat produced by the chopper inside the magic plug.

a watt at most.

Having opened one I'm not that surprised they were withdrawn. However
I believe they do work. The long list of newish machines they wont
work with must have killed the market for them too.

How the savings compare with the high plugcost I dont know. I never
managed to get any more than marketing handwaving on that point.


NT

On 6 June, 09:55, wrote:

what these do is deliver full power to the fridge during startup, then
reign power back by chopping the waveform to reduce consumption once
the compressor is running. They do work. Theyre increasingly becoming
incompatible with new machines that already have such tech built in
though.

We had a Zanussi fridge/freezer dating from 1988 pack up 18 months
ago. Replaced it with a Bosch Classixx with far better efficiency (so
if it lasts as long as the one it replaced, the money saved on the
leccy bill will "pay" for it). The Bosch manual warned against using
those plugs (I remember seeing them in that tat catalogue
"Innovations" years ago), also dodgy non-sine waves from inverters,
generators on ships etc IIRC.

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 12:23:50 -0700, Part timer wrote:
We had a Zanussi fridge/freezer dating from 1988 pack up 18 months
ago. Replaced it with a Bosch Classixx with far better efficiency (so
if it lasts as long as the one it replaced, the money saved on the
leccy bill will "pay" for it).

I think my hand-wavy calculations led me to believe a new one would need
to last a decade in order to pay for itself in energy savings, and
I didn't have much faith in any modern company either building
something that'd last that long or still being around in such a
*vast* time period :-)

(Our Whirlpool fridge/freezer's comfortably over 30 years old now and
still going strong - parts still seem to be readily available for when it
does eventually have issues)

cheers

Jules

Jules wrote:
On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 12:23:50 -0700, Part timer wrote:
We had a Zanussi fridge/freezer dating from 1988 pack up 18 months
ago. Replaced it with a Bosch Classixx with far better efficiency (so
if it lasts as long as the one it replaced, the money saved on the
leccy bill will "pay" for it).

I think my hand-wavy calculations led me to believe a new one would need
to last a decade in order to pay for itself in energy savings, and
I didn't have much faith in any modern company either building
something that'd last that long or still being around in such a
*vast* time period :-)

(Our Whirlpool fridge/freezer's comfortably over 30 years old now and
still going strong - parts still seem to be readily available for when it
does eventually have issues)

cheers

Jules

Basic ffs are really very reliable, its only when you get into frost
frees that things go wrong. 1970s... you're spending a lot of money
you needn't. Even comparing an old one given for free with a brand new
machine the new one's cheaper.


NT

On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 01:10:44 -0700, meow2222 wrote:
I think my hand-wavy calculations led me to believe a new one would need
to last a decade in order to pay for itself in energy savings, and
I didn't have much faith in any modern company either building
something that'd last that long or still being around in such a
*vast* time period :-)

(Our Whirlpool fridge/freezer's comfortably over 30 years old now and
still going strong - parts still seem to be readily available for when it
does eventually have issues)

Basic ffs are really very reliable, its only when you get into frost
frees that things go wrong.

Ours doesn't seem to have any frosting issues - I think we have
the manual somewhere, so I'll have to see if it says anything
about frost-free operation. I did have to take a fan motor out of the
freezer section last year as it was noisy - I was going to replace it,
but gave the bearings a light oil and it's been OK since. I suspect its
days are numbered)

1970s... you're spending a lot of money
you needn't. Even comparing an old one given for free with a brand new
machine the new one's cheaper.

Not so sure - I think most of our 'leccy bill goes on the baseboard
heaters, tumble dryer, water heater, and cooker. I'm not sure a different
fridge would make much of a dent in that - it might knock off 10% or so,
but 10% still works out to about ten years for a typical fridge/freezer
(electricity is pretty cheap this side of the Pond, whilst ff's are
comparatively expensive*).

* I was amused the other week to see thay they sell ones with LCD TVs
built into the door these days...

cheers

Jules

On 6 June, 09:47, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:
Watched a TV show t'other night called 'I didn't know that' or something,
anywho it was a 'green' episode.

The two presenters called in a 'green consultant' *A Sloan ranger called
Gimima/Cordelia/Arabella or similar.

She went around the house making suggestions about how to reduce energy
costs, obviously educated well beyond her natural intelligence.

One of the first things she suggested was a 'Savaplug' to reduce the
electricity consumed by the fridge. *Sounded like pure snake oil to me.


Looks like we'll never know.
"Please note: The Savaplug has been taken out of production until
further notice."
http://www.windtrap.co.uk/energy-sav...hold/savaplug/

Cheers!

Martin

Not very useful advice, as the SavaPlug has been withdrawn from sale.

RubberBiker wrote:
Not very useful advice, as the SavaPlug has been withdrawn from sale.

I wonder why :-)


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 11:25:05 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

RubberBiker wrote:
Not very useful advice, as the SavaPlug has been withdrawn from sale.

I wonder why :-)

You tumbled their ruse, innit.

If you were able to see their headquarters you'd see the company
director standing at the window, shaking his fist and exclaiming "
Curse you, Medway Handyman! Curse you and all you stand for!!".

Either that or someone has told them that Sava rhymes with Lava and
therefore doesn't make any sense.

Or it could just be crap.

Regards,


--
Steve ( out in the sticks )
Email: Take time to reply: timefrom_usenet{at}gmx.net

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 08:47:25 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:



Its become an industry this green movement. Think I might set up as The
Medway Green Consultant & go around spouting rubbish for suitably high fees.


You should speak to Gordon Brown if you've got snakeoil to sell. He's
desperate at the moment for anything that might con people into
thinking the recession is over.

How much has he spent at Sir Tsar Alan's computer company recently?
--
http://www.freedeliveryuk.co.uk
http://www.holidayunder100.co.uk

mogga wrote:
On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 08:47:25 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:


Its become an industry this green movement. Think I might set up as The
Medway Green Consultant & go around spouting rubbish for suitably high fees.


You should speak to Gordon Brown if you've got snakeoil to sell. He's
desperate at the moment for anything that might con people into
thinking the recession is over.

How much has he spent at Sir Tsar Alan's computer company recently?

I wasn't aware that Sir Alan HAD a computer company anymore, if indeed
he ever did.

Like many others, he made his money exploiting a narrow window of
opportunity when indigenous design and marketing could exploit a new
market just before the manufacturers with deep pockets got in on the act.

There is almost no money ion computer hardware anymore.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

How much has he spent at Sir Tsar Alan's computer company recently?

I wasn't aware that Sir Alan HAD a computer company anymore, if indeed
he ever did.

It's bloody Lord Nasty Little **** now, anyway.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

How much has he spent at Sir Tsar Alan's computer company recently?
I wasn't aware that Sir Alan HAD a computer company anymore, if indeed
he ever did.

It's bloody Lord Nasty Little **** now, anyway.

What did he ever do to YOU?

I always felt there was at least a bit of honesty and streetwisdom
there..unlike Clive Sinclair.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I wasn't aware that Sir Alan HAD a computer company anymore, if indeed
he ever did.

He does - we just spend a large 6 figure sum with it! Not quite sure
what his connection with it is but I know he stick one (if not both)
of the apprentice finalists in there for 6 months or so before picking
the winner (there is a long gap between the penultimate and the last
episode).

Viglen - they build desktops (not bad), servers (not so good) and resell
HDS sans (shiny :-)) to certain markets. We have just bought a couple SANs
and a load of PCs from them.

There is almost no money ion computer hardware anymore.

Viglen seem to be doing ok.

Darren

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 08:47:25 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:

One of the first things she suggested was a 'Savaplug' to reduce the
electricity consumed by the fridge. Sounded like pure snake oil to me.

I thought they just pulled the power factor back into line. The motor
being an inductive load messed up the power factor and leads to slight
errors in the meter. Could be wrong but I'm sure someone will be along
shortly to inform us about power factor and meters.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice coughed up some electrons that declared:

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 08:47:25 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:

One of the first things she suggested was a 'Savaplug' to reduce the
electricity consumed by the fridge. Sounded like pure snake oil to me.

I thought they just pulled the power factor back into line. The motor
being an inductive load messed up the power factor and leads to slight
errors in the meter. Could be wrong but I'm sure someone will be along
shortly to inform us about power factor and meters.


Domestic meters are designed to read true power (kVAh meters do/did exists
for industrial environments where the billing was sometimes done by the
VA-h rather than a W-h).

A capacitor is all that's needed to fix the PF on an inductive load.

Cheers

Tim

On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 08:18:03 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Domestic meters are designed to read true power (kVAh meters do/did
exists for industrial environments where the billing was sometimes done
by the VA-h rather than a W-h).

Care to expand that for this bear of little brain when it comes to AC
power measurement and power factors.

A capacitor is all that's needed to fix the PF on an inductive load.

Aye, that bit I do know. Has any one opened up a savaplug to find out what
is inside? I suspect not much more than a capacitor...

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 08:18:03 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Domestic meters are designed to read true power (kVAh meters do/did
exists for industrial environments where the billing was sometimes done
by the VA-h rather than a W-h).

Care to expand that for this bear of little brain when it comes to AC
power measurement and power factors.

A capacitor is all that's needed to fix the PF on an inductive load.

Aye, that bit I do know. Has any one opened up a savaplug to find out what
is inside? I suspect not much more than a capacitor...

--
Cheers
Dave.

That is interesting
So what makes the red light come on to say power is being saved?

Adam

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 08:18:03 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Domestic meters are designed to read true power (kVAh meters do/did
exists for industrial environments where the billing was sometimes done
by the VA-h rather than a W-h).

Care to expand that for this bear of little brain when it comes to AC
power measurement and power factors.

A capacitor is all that's needed to fix the PF on an inductive load.

Aye, that bit I do know. Has any one opened up a savaplug to find out what
is inside? I suspect not much more than a capacitor...

a sizeable PCB incuding a triac. If I find it I could post a photo.


NT

Dave Liquorice coughed up some electrons that declared:

On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 08:18:03 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Domestic meters are designed to read true power (kVAh meters do/did
exists for industrial environments where the billing was sometimes done
by the VA-h rather than a W-h).

Care to expand that for this bear of little brain when it comes to AC
power measurement and power factors.

True power is taken by integrating (or taking the sum of) a series of
instantaneous current and voltage measurements effectively multiplied. The
old magnetic disc meters did this multiplication in an analogue fashion
with a bit of clever physics to do with the way a voltage coil and a
current coil interacted on an aluminium disc, turning it into a motor,
which was balanced by a permanent magnet that tended to slow it down.

The speed of the disc gave the Watts and the integration was achieved by
tying the disc to a counter.

A VA(h) meter basically just measures RMS voltage and RMS current and
multiplies them (them being averages over a cycle or more) without regard
for any phase angle between the current and the voltage.

I have no idea how a disc meter achieved this - never seen one , only heard
of them.

In both cases, electronic meters are simpler conceptually - read current and
voltage at sub cycle samples, then apply whatever maths is desired and keep
a running total.

A capacitor is all that's needed to fix the PF on an inductive load.

Aye, that bit I do know. Has any one opened up a savaplug to find out what
is inside? I suspect not much more than a capacitor...


No idea. Probably chops the waveform in some way that I wouldn;t like to
have going into my products

Tim S wrote:

Domestic meters are designed to read true power (kVAh meters do/did exists
for industrial environments where the billing was sometimes done by the
VA-h rather than a W-h).

I've never come across a kVAh meter. The usual industrial arrangement
is a regular kWh meter plus a kVARh meter - reactive consumption being
billed at x pence per kilovar-hour on top of the normal kWh charge.
Kilovars (kVAR) - kilovolt-amps-reactive - is the 'reactive power' -
i.e. the product of voltage and the quadrature component of the current
(V*I*sin(phi), as opposed to V*I*cos(phi) for kW).

On a tariff where you're paying for kVARh there will normally also be a
maximum demand charge, based on the monthly maximum demand in kVA
(averaged over 30 minutes to exclude motor starting and similar inrush
transient currents). In the past the maximum demand indicator would
have been a third item of metering equipment. Nowadays all three
functions are usually incorporated into one electronic meter.

--
Andy