Hi,

One more logistical wibble:

Have an islanded bathroom - no external walls. Obviously bog cistern needs
an overflow.

I've seen, in commercial buildings, enclosed overflows to drains with a
little window in front, basically:

3x4" window;

Big pipe (or funnel) in base of enclosed space

22mm pipe in the top, end hanging over funnel.

Thus the overflow goes straight down a drain pipe, but there is a visual
guide if the overflow is in use.

Anyone know where to get one?

I guess I could make one to, with a bit of clear tube inserted into 40mm
waste pipe with a 22mm overflow into the top.

But I'm curious about the ones I've seen...

On Fri, 29 May 2009 22:52:12 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Hi,

One more logistical wibble:

Have an islanded bathroom - no external walls. Obviously bog cistern needs
an overflow.

I've seen, in commercial buildings, enclosed overflows to drains with a
little window in front, basically:

3x4" window;

Big pipe (or funnel) in base of enclosed space

22mm pipe in the top, end hanging over funnel.

Thus the overflow goes straight down a drain pipe, but there is a visual
guide if the overflow is in use.

Anyone know where to get one?

I guess I could make one to, with a bit of clear tube inserted into 40mm
waste pipe with a 22mm overflow into the top.

But I'm curious about the ones I've seen...

Or just change the mechanism to one with a much neater internal overflow.
Any overflow goes into the toilet pan and drains away, the continuous flow
is visible in the pan.

SteveW

Tim S wrote:
Hi,

One more logistical wibble:

Have an islanded bathroom - no external walls. Obviously bog cistern
needs an overflow.

Oh no it doesn't!

All the new bog siphons I've seen have an internal overflow e.g. if the fill
valve fails, water overflows into the WC pan.

Usually reported by the punter as 'toilet won't stop flushing', I can
either tell them 'adjust the fill valve to reduce the cistern level' or 'I
can sort that for you, it will be £30'.

:-)


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

"Tim S" wrote in message
...
Hi,

One more logistical wibble:

Have an islanded bathroom - no external walls. Obviously bog cistern needs
an overflow.

I've seen, in commercial buildings, enclosed overflows to drains with a
little window in front, basically:

3x4" window;

Big pipe (or funnel) in base of enclosed space

22mm pipe in the top, end hanging over funnel.

Thus the overflow goes straight down a drain pipe, but there is a visual
guide if the overflow is in use.

Anyone know where to get one?

I guess I could make one to, with a bit of clear tube inserted into 40mm
waste pipe with a 22mm overflow into the top.

But I'm curious about the ones I've seen...

The clear tundish and flush pipe clamp can be got from most plumbers
merchants.

Far better surely to fit a siphon with internal overflow.

Heliotrope Smith coughed up some electrons that declared:


The clear tundish and flush pipe clamp can be got from most plumbers
merchants.

"tundish" - the magic word. Never heard it before, but now it makes sense,
finding many examples on the web. I reckon what I saw was a white tundish,
that simply had a window set into the cistern enclosure fascia, so more
custom, than an actual part (the actual part being inside).

Thanks.

Far better surely to fit a siphon with internal overflow.

Probably... For some reason I have never questioned the possibility that
these existed (sheltered life )

But, yes, I shall ask in the shop...

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:
Heliotrope Smith coughed up some electrons that declared:


The clear tundish and flush pipe clamp can be got from most plumbers
merchants.

"tundish" - the magic word. Never heard it before, but now it makes sense,
finding many examples on the web. I reckon what I saw was a white tundish,
that simply had a window set into the cistern enclosure fascia, so more
custom, than an actual part (the actual part being inside).

You get them any place you need an air break as a well - like on
pressure release valves on unvented hot water cylinders.

Far better surely to fit a siphon with internal overflow.

Probably... For some reason I have never questioned the possibility that
these existed (sheltered life )

But, yes, I shall ask in the shop...

Most modern designs that use a flap valve rather than a traditional
syphon are like this now...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
om...
Tim S wrote:
Hi,

One more logistical wibble:

Have an islanded bathroom - no external walls. Obviously bog cistern
needs an overflow.

Oh no it doesn't!

All the new bog siphons I've seen have an internal overflow e.g. if the
fill valve fails, water overflows into the WC pan.

Usually reported by the punter as 'toilet won't stop flushing', I can
either tell them 'adjust the fill valve to reduce the cistern level' or 'I
can sort that for you, it will be £30'.

:-)


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk


You would have loved the overflow I saw at work last week. It went staight
down to the pan and was hammered flat to allow the toilet seat to be
lowered.

Adam

ARWadsworth coughed up some electrons that declared:



You would have loved the overflow I saw at work last week. It went staight
down to the pan and was hammered flat to allow the toilet seat to be
lowered.

Adam

I've seen that too...

Tim S wrote:
ARWadsworth coughed up some electrons that declared:



You would have loved the overflow I saw at work last week. It went
staight down to the pan and was hammered flat to allow the toilet
seat to be lowered.

Adam

I've seen that too...

....and me! Seems common in pubs.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

John Rumm wrote:
Tim S wrote:

Far better surely to fit a siphon with internal overflow.

Probably... For some reason I have never questioned the possibility
that these existed (sheltered life )

But, yes, I shall ask in the shop...

Most modern designs that use a flap valve rather than a traditional
syphon are like this now...

Spawn of the Devil, no good will ever come of them...

Syphons are simple & uncomplicated, there was no need to 'improve' them.

I don't think I've come across a syphon recently that *didn't* have an
internal overflow.

Or is is Siphon?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On May 30, 8:25 pm, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Syphons are simple & uncomplicated, there was no need to 'improve' them.

OK, explain the essential parts of a syphon cistern and exactly how
they work!

On Sat, 30 May 2009 08:25:17 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:

I don't think I've come across a syphon recently that *didn't* have an
internal overflow.

It's simply a matter of geometry. If the syphon valve is short enough that
the top of the inverted 'U' is below the level at which water leaks out of
the cistern by other orifices (why do they have that dip in the rim of
the back wall of the cistern?!) then it will act as an internal overflow.
You can readily get (IIRC) 8" and 9.5" syphons, and I've seen shorter.


--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

militant pacifist

Matty F wrote:
On May 30, 8:25 pm, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Syphons are simple & uncomplicated, there was no need to 'improve'
them.

OK, explain the essential parts of a syphon cistern and exactly how
they work!

Simplicity itself.

A siphon is an inverted 'U' one end of which connects to the WC pan, t'other
end is open & about 10mm above the cistern base. Obviously the water level
inside & outside the siphon is the same.

In the base of this end is a plastic diaphram on a grid acting as a flap
valve. When you flush the bog the diaphram lifts water over the 'U' bend and
starts the siphon which continues until its pulled almost all the water out
of the cistern & air breaks the siphon.

The diaphram is then pushed down by a spring allowing water back into the
siphon, ready to start again.

Essential parts; 1 x plastic diaphram, 1 x spring, 1 x linkage to flush
handle. Complete list of possible faults; linkage comes off, diaphram
splits.

Nice picky.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l2...cistern-01.png

Simples. Why would you want to 'improve' something that simple?



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Sat, 30 May 2009 15:38:45 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:

The diaphram is then pushed down by a spring allowing water back into
the siphon, ready to start again.

Spring? I thought i was just weight of the frame/diaphragm, link and arm
that just pushed it down. Mind you I've never had need to take one apart
as they are so reliable so there could be a spring in there but I doubt
it.

Simples. Why would you want to 'improve' something that simple?

Beacuse compared to the drop flap type they are complicated to
make/assemble and use more materials? Why spend £5 on manufacture when you
could spend £3 and charge the same for the product... The fact the drop
flap type are less reliable and lead to wasted water isn't relevant.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 30 May 2009 15:38:45 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Essential parts; 1 x plastic diaphram, 1 x spring, 1 x linkage to flush
handle. Complete list of possible faults; linkage comes off, diaphram
splits.

Or, in mine, the diaphragm stiffened and didn't really 'flap'.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Sat, 30 May 2009 15:38:45 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:

The diaphram is then pushed down by a spring allowing water back into
the siphon, ready to start again.

Spring? I thought i was just weight of the frame/diaphragm, link and arm
that just pushed it down. Mind you I've never had need to take one apart
as they are so reliable so there could be a spring in there but I doubt
it.

Very common for modern plastic siphons to be spring assisted.
Still find the occaisional older types with lead weights to push the
diaphragm down.

Simples. Why would you want to 'improve' something that simple?

Beacuse compared to the drop flap type they are complicated to
make/assemble and use more materials? Why spend £5 on manufacture when you
could spend £3 and charge the same for the product... The fact the drop
flap type are less reliable and lead to wasted water isn't relevant.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 30 May 2009 22:19:18 +0100, Heliotrope Smith wrote:

Beacuse compared to the drop flap type they are complicated to
make/assemble and use more materials? Why spend £5 on manufacture when you
could spend £3 and charge the same for the product... The fact the drop
flap type are less reliable and lead to wasted water isn't relevant.

Bring back the bell syphon, I say.

Seriously: no sheets of polythene in inaccessible places to pack up, no
washers to let by when they cease being 101% perfect. Made of modern
materials (rather than cast iron!) and with perhaps a bit of smarts to
make them easier to flush and perhaps some sort of dual-flush arrangement
and I reckon they'd be the nearest to the ideal flush valve you could get.



--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

Question Authority

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 30 May 2009 15:38:45 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:

The diaphram is then pushed down by a spring allowing water back into
the siphon, ready to start again.

Spring? I thought i was just weight of the frame/diaphragm, link and
arm that just pushed it down. Mind you I've never had need to take
one apart as they are so reliable so there could be a spring in there
but I doubt it.

There has been a spring in the last two dozen or so I've changed.

Simples. Why would you want to 'improve' something that simple?

Beacuse compared to the drop flap type they are complicated to
make/assemble and use more materials? Why spend £5 on manufacture
when you could spend £3 and charge the same for the product... The
fact the drop flap type are less reliable and lead to wasted water
isn't relevant.

Drop flap types have chains, floats to ensure they close & are a right PITA
to adjust properly. Much more complicated than a siphon.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

PeterC wrote:
On Sat, 30 May 2009 15:38:45 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Essential parts; 1 x plastic diaphram, 1 x spring, 1 x linkage to
flush handle. Complete list of possible faults; linkage comes off,
diaphram splits.

Or, in mine, the diaphragm stiffened and didn't really 'flap'.

After how long?

Still cheap to replace.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Sun, 31 May 2009 00:19:15 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:

PeterC wrote:
On Sat, 30 May 2009 15:38:45 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Essential parts; 1 x plastic diaphram, 1 x spring, 1 x linkage to
flush handle. Complete list of possible faults; linkage comes off,
diaphram splits.

Or, in mine, the diaphragm stiffened and didn't really 'flap'.

After how long?

About 20 years.

Still cheap to replace.

Oh yes, no problem there.

Also had an inlet valve that was so fast I had to have 4li of full bottles
in the cistern to keep the flushed amount down to 8 - 9li! It was
surprising that the siphon didn't run continuously.
With some judiscious lubrication, the flush could be operated easily with
the tip of the little finger.

I changed to a dual flush, push-button cistern and cut about 100li/week
from consumption.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

On Sun, 31 May 2009 00:18:18 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Spring? I thought i was just weight of the frame/diaphragm, link and
arm that just pushed it down. Mind you I've never had need to take
one apart as they are so reliable so there could be a spring in there
but I doubt it.

There has been a spring in the last two dozen or so I've changed.

I sit corrected. B-)

Drop flap types have chains, floats to ensure they close & are a right
PITA to adjust properly. Much more complicated than a siphon.

That sounds like a dual flush version rather than single flush. But yes
far more complicated and less reliable.

--
Cheers
Dave.

ARWadsworth wrote:

You would have loved the overflow I saw at work last week. It went staight
down to the pan and was hammered flat to allow the toilet seat to be
lowered.

You've reminded me of the one I saw the other day. High mounted
cistern, set so the overflow comes out of the front of the tank and
drops straight into the pan from a great height.

Or presumably onto the head of any user...

Andy