Back in the 60's, market stalls sold cheap far eastern tools that were
useless, but these days in my experience most Far East stuff is adequate. To
make up my last Screwfix order they had a cheap toolbox with some basic
tools on offer (to be left somewhere which isn't particularly secure, so I
didn't want good stuff). Most of them are fine particularly for the price,
but today I used the junior hacksaw, and after about six strokes on a bit of
studding it didn't have any teeth left.

On investigation, the blade was dead soft so I wondered charitably if it had
missed the heat treatment. No: quench from red heat, and it's still soft,
obviously mild steel! So someone is actually making fake junior hacksaw
blades, blued to look just like the real thing. I find it quite surprising
that there is a market for them.

"newshound" wrote in message
...
Back in the 60's, market stalls sold cheap far eastern tools that
were
useless, but these days in my experience most Far East stuff is
adequate. To
make up my last Screwfix order they had a cheap toolbox with some
basic
tools on offer (to be left somewhere which isn't particularly
secure, so I
didn't want good stuff). Most of them are fine particularly for the
price,
but today I used the junior hacksaw, and after about six strokes on
a bit of
studding it didn't have any teeth left.

On investigation, the blade was dead soft so I wondered charitably
if it had
missed the heat treatment. No: quench from red heat, and it's still
soft,
obviously mild steel! So someone is actually making fake junior
hacksaw
blades, blued to look just like the real thing. I find it quite
surprising
that there is a market for them.


It's probably been case hardened, but the case is too thin - I had
some 12" blades like that a few years back. Screwfix are very good
with refunds or replacements - give 'em a call.

AWEM

newshound wrote:
Back in the 60's, market stalls sold cheap far eastern tools that were
useless, but these days in my experience most Far East stuff is
adequate. To make up my last Screwfix order they had a cheap toolbox
with some basic tools on offer (to be left somewhere which isn't
particularly secure, so I didn't want good stuff). Most of them are fine
particularly for the price, but today I used the junior hacksaw, and
after about six strokes on a bit of studding it didn't have any teeth left.

On investigation, the blade was dead soft so I wondered charitably if it
had missed the heat treatment. No: quench from red heat, and it's still
soft, obviously mild steel! So someone is actually making fake junior
hacksaw blades, blued to look just like the real thing. I find it quite
surprising that there is a market for them.

I bought a bow saw that was cheap and Chinese made. Impossible to do a
straight cut with it so useless on branches above an inch thick - you
start out cutting them across and by the time you're half way through
the blade has moved through 90 degrees so you're cutting the branch down
it's length. Threw it away and bought a Stanley one for 5 times the
price. At least it works. The difference in the blades was very
noticeable. The Chinese one was really thin and also not very wide,
teeth the back, compared to the Stanley one.

Also had a staple gun that was crap and ended up in the dustbin - made
in China.

I've had several disastrous purchases that on subsequent inspection
turned out to be Chinese and complete crap. Now I always look at the
label before buying anything. I treat "Made in China" as a hazard
warning label and never knowingly buy anything Chinese made.

--
David in Normandy.

On Sat, 9 May 2009 21:12:06 +0100, "newshound"
wrote:

Back in the 60's, market stalls sold cheap far eastern tools that were
useless, but these days in my experience most Far East stuff is adequate. To
make up my last Screwfix order they had a cheap toolbox with some basic
tools on offer (to be left somewhere which isn't particularly secure, so I
didn't want good stuff). Most of them are fine particularly for the price,
but today I used the junior hacksaw, and after about six strokes on a bit of
studding it didn't have any teeth left.

On investigation, the blade was dead soft so I wondered charitably if it had
missed the heat treatment. No: quench from red heat, and it's still soft,
obviously mild steel! So someone is actually making fake junior hacksaw
blades, blued to look just like the real thing. I find it quite surprising
that there is a market for them.

My local ironmonger was selling them last year. A pack of lovely blued
blades. Two strokes on a piece of steel and they were smooth.

In message , David in Normandy
writes
I've had several disastrous purchases that on subsequent inspection
turned out to be Chinese and complete crap. Now I always look at the
label before buying anything. I treat "Made in China" as a hazard
warning label and never knowingly buy anything Chinese made.


I'm wondering what you might actually have bought then



--
geoff

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , David in Normandy
writes
I've had several disastrous purchases that on subsequent inspection turned
out to be Chinese and complete crap. Now I always look at the label before
buying anything. I treat "Made in China" as a hazard warning label and
never knowingly buy anything Chinese made.


I'm wondering what you might actually have bought then



--
geoff

My impression is that Chinese industry now is sort of comparable to Britain
in the height of the Industrial Revolution, except that they have embraced
Japanese quality control along the way. In contrast to Hong Kong half a
century ago, I think they take a genuine pride in producing good products at
keen prices. I mean, they don't *have* to include a spare set of brushes
with electric tools, but they almost invariably do. Presumably they expect
to get a long and hard life out of them in their domestic market. OK, for
the bargain basement stuff they don't spend a lot of time in finishing and I
wouldn't buy a cheap cordless drill because the batteries won't last so
well. But I have a little two stroke genny and a two inch petrol water pump
and they are very well made and have been totally reliable. Like a
Velocette, but without the oil leaks.

It's interesting, too, that the West is obviously fighting back in what
would once have been a Far East preserve: I recently bought a couple of
basic Nokia phones and one was made in Hungary, the other Romania.

newshound wrote:


"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , David in
Normandy writes
I've had several disastrous purchases that on subsequent inspection
turned out to be Chinese and complete crap. Now I always look at the
label before buying anything. I treat "Made in China" as a hazard
warning label and never knowingly buy anything Chinese made.


I'm wondering what you might actually have bought then



--
geoff

My impression is that Chinese industry now is sort of comparable to
Britain in the height of the Industrial Revolution, except that they
have embraced Japanese quality control along the way. In contrast to
Hong Kong half a century ago, I think they take a genuine pride in
producing good products at keen prices. I mean, they don't *have* to
include a spare set of brushes with electric tools, but they almost
invariably do. Presumably they expect to get a long and hard life out
of them in their domestic market. OK, for the bargain basement stuff
they don't spend a lot of time in finishing and I wouldn't buy a cheap
cordless drill because the batteries won't last so well. But I have a
little two stroke genny and a two inch petrol water pump and they are
very well made and have been totally reliable. Like a Velocette, but
without the oil leaks.

It's interesting, too, that the West is obviously fighting back in
what would once have been a Far East preserve: I recently bought a
couple of basic Nokia phones and one was made in Hungary, the other
Romania.
A mate of mine works in auto engine development and mentioned that some
of the production is done in former eastern Europe as the manual labour
is cheaper than robots to do the assembly.

"newshound" wrote in message
...
Back in the 60's, market stalls sold cheap far eastern tools that were
useless, but these days in my experience most Far East stuff is adequate.
To make up my last Screwfix order they had a cheap toolbox with some basic
tools on offer (to be left somewhere which isn't particularly secure, so I
didn't want good stuff). Most of them are fine particularly for the price,
but today I used the junior hacksaw, and after about six strokes on a bit
of studding it didn't have any teeth left.

On investigation, the blade was dead soft so I wondered charitably if it
had missed the heat treatment. No: quench from red heat, and it's still
soft, obviously mild steel! So someone is actually making fake junior
hacksaw blades, blued to look just like the real thing. I find it quite
surprising that there is a market for them.

Like those screwdriver sets you see in fancy-goods stores.
Made of metal with similar properties as cream cheese.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On Sat, 09 May 2009 22:51:57 +0200, David in Normandy
wrote:

I've had several disastrous purchases that on subsequent inspection
turned out to be Chinese and complete crap. Now I always look at the
label before buying anything. I treat "Made in China" as a hazard
warning label and never knowingly buy anything Chinese made.

Generally agree with that sentiment, but we bought a 2-ton folding engine crane
this week to change a Discovery V8 engine, and although it was cheap and
obviously Chinese, the basics were fine, it does the job and for £139 collected,
was significantly cheaper than the same thing sold by Sealey/Clarke/Machine Mart
etc.

The main 'improvements' would be nylocs on the M16 pivot bolts and more flat
washers on the fasteners, but it is fine 'as is' for the occasional job.

We do have other lifting tackle BTW, but they are all at the house and the Disco
is at the factory.

Peter
--
Peter & Rita Forbes
Email:
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel
http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk
http://www.oldengine.co.uk

In article ,
David in Normandy wrote:
I've had several disastrous purchases that on subsequent inspection
turned out to be Chinese and complete crap. Now I always look at the
label before buying anything. I treat "Made in China" as a hazard
warning label and never knowingly buy anything Chinese made.

You're likely buying a number of Chinese made things without knowing it -
just because it says 'made in Germany' etc means not a lot in practice.

--
*If I throw a stick, will you leave?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , David in Normandy
writes

I've had several disastrous purchases that on subsequent inspection
turned out to be Chinese and complete crap. Now I always look at the
label before buying anything. I treat "Made in China" as a hazard
warning label and never knowingly buy anything Chinese made.

I bet you've bought loads that wasn't marked as made in China but had
many if not all of it's components made there and assembled somewhere
you have a higher opinion of though.

China has a wonderful attitude, you can have almost any price or quality
you want and they'll happily manufacture it for you.

It's not *really* their fault that Western companies buy cheap tat and
slap huge profit margins on it or cheap westerners buy the tat and
expect miracles from it.
--
Clint Sharp

"newshound" wrote in message
...

. I find it quite surprising that there is a market for them.

Well you bought one G

Cliff Coggin.

Cliff Coggin wrote:
"newshound" wrote in message
...

. I find it quite surprising that there is a market for them.

Well you bought one G

Cliff Coggin.



I think that is what drives the market. I've bought cheap Chinese made
tools or other products only to realise that many of them were crap.
However, they've got my money by then :-(

The net result is that I look for the "Made in China" warning label and
try to avoid repeating the same mistake. I'm not saying all Chinese
products are rubbish, just enough of them are to make me very wary about
knowingly buying any more of them.

The worst Chinese product I bought was a garden marquee. It only
survived 24 hours. A heavy shower of rain wet the canopy which made it
sag which then collected more water which made it sag all the more until
finally the whole structure collapsed into a pile of twisted tubing. All
in the space of around 10 minutes. It was a complete write-off. I
couldn't believe my eyes when I went outside after the shower and saw
the crumpled wreck. In retrospect it was easy to see why the product was
useless - the steel tubing was way too thin to have any significant
structural value. As far as I'm concerned it wasn't fit for purpose - as
seems to be the case with any number of Chinese products.

--
David in Normandy.

David in Normandy wrote:
Cliff Coggin wrote:
"newshound" wrote in message
...

. I find it quite surprising that there is a market for them.

Well you bought one G

Cliff Coggin.


I think that is what drives the market. I've bought cheap Chinese made
tools or other products only to realise that many of them were crap.
However, they've got my money by then :-(

The net result is that I look for the "Made in China" warning label and
try to avoid repeating the same mistake. I'm not saying all Chinese
products are rubbish, just enough of them are to make me very wary about
knowingly buying any more of them.

The worst Chinese product I bought was a garden marquee. It only
survived 24 hours. A heavy shower of rain wet the canopy which made it
sag which then collected more water which made it sag all the more until
finally the whole structure collapsed into a pile of twisted tubing. All
in the space of around 10 minutes. It was a complete write-off. I
couldn't believe my eyes when I went outside after the shower and saw
the crumpled wreck. In retrospect it was easy to see why the product was
useless - the steel tubing was way too thin to have any significant
structural value. As far as I'm concerned it wasn't fit for purpose - as
seems to be the case with any number of Chinese products.

To be fair that's less because it was made in china, than *why* it was
made in china..

I.e. a fairly usual game is to take a sum of money, spend 50% on getting
a bunch of ,marketing going, then some idiot takes a sketch to China as
says 'can you do this for $10' and they say 'yes, if you don't mind it
collapsing when it rains' and they say 'not at all' ..

I met the guys behind some early alcopops once... 2p of grain alcohol,
1p of flavoring 3p of packaging, 30 p of tax and 35p of TV marketing and
then sell it for a quid.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "newshound"
saying something like:

So someone is actually making fake junior hacksaw
blades, blued to look just like the real thing.

They're not fake - they're just ****.

On Sun, 10 May 2009 07:23:55 +0100, Peter A Forbes wrote:

On Sat, 09 May 2009 22:51:57 +0200, David in Normandy
wrote:

I've had several disastrous purchases that on subsequent inspection
turned out to be Chinese and complete crap. Now I always look at the
label before buying anything. I treat "Made in China" as a hazard
warning label and never knowingly buy anything Chinese made.

Generally agree with that sentiment, but we bought a 2-ton folding engine crane
this week to change a Discovery V8 engine, and although it was cheap and
obviously Chinese, the basics were fine, it does the job and for £139 collected,
was significantly cheaper than the same thing sold by Sealey/Clarke/Machine Mart
etc.

I don't mind cheap stuff at all if I can see the construction and assess
how long it'll last. The problem I find is with the 'complex' stuff, or
where you can't see under the covers at the shop - I tend to avoid those
like the plague and will rather go with something that has a good
reputation. But if I can see how it's built, there are good and bad
Chinese products - just as with items closer to home - and so long as
physical shops still exist I can go take a look at the item and make a
judgement based on that.

The main 'improvements' would be nylocs on the M16 pivot bolts and more
flat washers on the fasteners, but it is fine 'as is' for the occasional
job.

But the nice thing is, you can do those upgrades yourself quickly, easily
and cheaply, so it's an all-round win. No point paying lots extra for a
'brand' in that particular case.

cheers

Jules

On Sun, 10 May 2009 13:43:20 -0500, Jules
wrote:

The main 'improvements' would be nylocs on the M16 pivot bolts and more
flat washers on the fasteners, but it is fine 'as is' for the occasional
job.

But the nice thing is, you can do those upgrades yourself quickly, easily
and cheaply, so it's an all-round win. No point paying lots extra for a
'brand' in that particular case.

cheers

Jules

Yes indeed.

The place we collected it from was full to the (factory unit) ceiling with
imported stuff, generators, shot blasting cabinets, and so on. They probably buy
by the container load at a pretty good price.

Peter
--
Peter & Rita Forbes
Email:
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel
http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk
http://www.oldengine.co.uk

Clint Sharp coughed up some electrons that declared:


China has a wonderful attitude, you can have almost any price or quality
you want and they'll happily manufacture it for you.

It's not *really* their fault that Western companies buy cheap tat and
slap huge profit margins on it or cheap westerners buy the tat and
expect miracles from it.

That is pretty much the sum of it.

China will make you wonderful multilayer PCBs, gold plated, the full monty
(who do you think makes the hideously complicated PCBs for computer
motherboards)?

They will also happily make you crap PCBs out of recycled bog rolls for your
4.99 Argos radio.

You choose.

I agree with the sentiments that it's in essence our fault. The market is
flooded with choices of cheap crap that barely works, fairly cheap crap
that works for a while and excellent stuff that lasts quite well. Very
occasionally cheap stuff that lasts forever.

The fact that many people would rather buy 3 cheap items than one expensive
item that lasts 3 times as long isn't the fault of the manufacturer.

On May 9, 9:12*pm, "newshound" wrote:
Back in the 60's, market stalls sold cheap far eastern tools that were
useless, but these days in my experience most Far East stuff is adequate. To
make up my last Screwfix order they had a cheap toolbox with some basic
tools on offer (to be left somewhere which isn't particularly secure, so I
didn't want good stuff). Most of them are fine particularly for the price,
but today I used the junior hacksaw, and after about six strokes on a bit of
studding it didn't have any teeth left.

On investigation, the blade was dead soft so I wondered charitably if it had
missed the heat treatment. No: quench from red heat, and it's still soft,
obviously mild steel! So someone is actually making fake junior hacksaw
blades, blued to look just like the real thing. I find it quite surprising
that there is a market for them.

A friend of mine bought one those cheap drill press vices off ebay
£6.99

it came ....he said it rocked on his table ..

so, sent it back at his expence ...

and received a few days latter a replacement vice that also rocked on
his table

he';s helped me do a few things in the past ..
so i said i would plonk it on my surface grinder and sought it out ..

so I thought ...use the the top ways a reference and grind the bottom

the effing top faces were just as rocky as the bottom ..rocked on the
parallels..2mm out
took me blinking three hours to sort the thing..now that's what i call
crap.

I should have just chucked it away.

all the best.markj

"Cliff Coggin" wrote in message
news

"newshound" wrote in message
...

. I find it quite surprising that there is a market for them.

Well you bought one G

Cliff Coggin.

Only very indirectly as the rest of the job lot was fine. But someone
actually decided they could manufacture and sell the rubbish to someone. I
really don't believe it all came from the same place.

In article , Peter A Forbes
writes
On Sun, 10 May 2009 13:43:20 -0500, Jules
wrote:

The main 'improvements' would be nylocs on the M16 pivot bolts and more
flat washers on the fasteners, but it is fine 'as is' for the occasional
job.

But the nice thing is, you can do those upgrades yourself quickly, easily
and cheaply, so it's an all-round win. No point paying lots extra for a
'brand' in that particular case.

cheers

Jules

Yes indeed.

The place we collected it from was full to the (factory unit) ceiling with
imported stuff, generators, shot blasting cabinets, and so on.

perk

I keep thinking I need a shot blasting cabinet in my life. Was this
place cheap, and are you prepared to name them?

--
Nigel

When the only tools you have are an X3 mill, a
Colchester and assorted other stuff, every problem looks like a steam engine.

On Sun, 10 May 2009 20:15:45 +0100, Tim S wrote:
The fact that many people would rather buy 3 cheap items than one expensive
item that lasts 3 times as long isn't the fault of the manufacturer.

The the above gives the consumer no net loss though - the impact's only an
environmental one in producing three crap widgets rather than one good one.

IME a good quality widget will outlast a crap one ten times or more
but *not* have a price tag of ten times the **** one; the odds are very
well stacked in the good quality widget's favour.

The problem though is that it's hard to tell 'good quality' these days.
Recognised 'good' brands are peddling sub-standard crud just as much as
the unknowns, and the fast pace of new good coming to market means that
even if the consumer reads the reviews, they do nothing to tell them how
well the item is going to last.

cheers

Jules

On Sun, 10 May 2009 22:57:00 +0100, Nigel Eaton wrote:
I keep thinking I need a shot blasting cabinet in my life.

How practical is it to make one?

On Sun, 10 May 2009 22:57:00 +0100, Nigel Eaton
wrote:

I keep thinking I need a shot blasting cabinet in my life. Was this
place cheap, and are you prepared to name them?

The people we bought the crane from and the sandblaster cabinets page are he

http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/KMS-DI...34Q2ec0Q2em322

Watch that line doesn't break into two.

Peter
--
Peter & Rita Forbes
Email:
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel
http://www.stationary-engine.co.uk
http://www.oldengine.co.uk

Jules coughed up some electrons that declared:

On Sun, 10 May 2009 20:15:45 +0100, Tim S wrote:
The fact that many people would rather buy 3 cheap items than one
expensive item that lasts 3 times as long isn't the fault of the
manufacturer.

The the above gives the consumer no net loss though - the impact's only an
environmental one in producing three crap widgets rather than one good
one.

IME a good quality widget will outlast a crap one ten times or more
but *not* have a price tag of ten times the **** one; the odds are very
well stacked in the good quality widget's favour.

The problem though is that it's hard to tell 'good quality' these days.
Recognised 'good' brands are peddling sub-standard crud just as much as
the unknowns, and the fast pace of new good coming to market means that
even if the consumer reads the reviews, they do nothing to tell them how
well the item is going to last.


I agree with all that. Badge engineering should be illegal, but I don't know
how you could actually achieve that in practise.

With the emphasis on the environment and landfill, there should be a serious
drive to discourage "tat consumerism" but that contradicts the capitalist
underpinnings of our flakey economy so it won't happen.

Although not entirely replated, this rather sums it up:

http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2009-05-10/

Cheers

Tim

In article ,
Tim S wrote:
The problem though is that it's hard to tell 'good quality' these
days. Recognised 'good' brands are peddling sub-standard crud just as
much as the unknowns, and the fast pace of new good coming to market
means that even if the consumer reads the reviews, they do nothing to
tell them how well the item is going to last.


I agree with all that. Badge engineering should be illegal, but I don't
know how you could actually achieve that in practise.

Badge engineering usually means effectively just changing a badge and
relatively minor things to try and get a bigger market while saving costs.
One obvious example is VW, Audi and Skoda. Are you really saying this
should be illegal and they should be badged VW Popular, Standard and Delux
etc only?

With the emphasis on the environment and landfill, there should be a
serious drive to discourage "tat consumerism" but that contradicts the
capitalist underpinnings of our flakey economy so it won't happen.

If something is genuinely unfit for purpose like a chocolate hacksaw blade
your recourse is with the retailer.

I'd hate to see some form of restriction on what's available - there'd
be no more bargains from the likes of Lidl.

--
*Some days we are the flies; some days we are the windscreen.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 11 May, 06:12, Peter A Forbes wrote:
On Sun, 10 May 2009 22:57:00 +0100, Nigel Eaton
wrote:

I keep thinking I need a shot blasting cabinet in my life. Was this
place cheap, and are you prepared to name them?

The people we bought the crane from and the sandblaster cabinets page are he

http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/KMS-DI...dBlasters_W0QQ...

Watch that line doesn't break into two.

Peter
--
Peter & Rita Forbes
Email:


had my 30 ton press off them ..good kit

all the best.markj

Dave Plowman (News) coughed up some electrons that declared:

In article ,
Tim S wrote:
The problem though is that it's hard to tell 'good quality' these
days. Recognised 'good' brands are peddling sub-standard crud just as
much as the unknowns, and the fast pace of new good coming to market
means that even if the consumer reads the reviews, they do nothing to
tell them how well the item is going to last.


I agree with all that. Badge engineering should be illegal, but I don't
know how you could actually achieve that in practise.

Badge engineering usually means effectively just changing a badge and
relatively minor things to try and get a bigger market while saving costs.
One obvious example is VW, Audi and Skoda. Are you really saying this
should be illegal and they should be badged VW Popular, Standard and Delux
etc only?


Well, I don't have an answer - but I do think that perhaps (and this is an
extreme view which I won't bother defending) if a company buys another
company, it should get the assets, but not the right to use the name.

That would put an end to trying to trade on brand familiarity when the brand
no longer has the meaning that people think it does.

If a previously reputable company dies, then let the name die. Stop
confusing people.

Skoda is a bit of a weird inverse case - VW had to go to some lengths to
remarket the name away from the crap that it used to stand for. If Skoda
are as good as VW, VW should, IMHO stick their own name on it and just sell
it cheaper. After all, everyone is happy that a VW Polo is a small cheap
car that basically works, a Fox is really cheap[1], but a Golf is something
a bit better (depending on your taste) and much more expensive.

[1] I had a brand new Fox as a loaner for a day whilst my Touran was in for
service. It was about as cheap and unrefined as I could imagine. But it
seemed competant to do it's basic job. The fact it had a VW badge on it
doesn't tarnish the VW name in my mind. I can cope with the concept that a
manufacture makes cheap unrefined products and expensive gold plated (or
wood trimmed in this case) ones. But I do expect the unrefined cheap
product to be as well built in terms of longevity.

Daewoos are now sold as Chevvys (soon to be Fiat?) - that's rediculous.

With the emphasis on the environment and landfill, there should be a
serious drive to discourage "tat consumerism" but that contradicts the
capitalist underpinnings of our flakey economy so it won't happen.

If something is genuinely unfit for purpose like a chocolate hacksaw blade
your recourse is with the retailer.

I'd hate to see some form of restriction on what's available - there'd
be no more bargains from the likes of Lidl.


Well, (and we're off the labelling and onto the quality point now), I've
been quite pleased with goods from Aldi. The 8kg SDS is a bit rough and
bloody heavy, but ideal for rough work and plaster mixing and it appears to
be built like a brick ****house. I have no objection to that, because it
feels like it will last more than 5 minutes. I use a Hitachi 2kg for normal
work, but I wouldn't say that is more robust, but it is smoother and more
refined. I hope both will last a long time, but I'd have to come back here
in 10 years to verify that.

Pliers from poundland that bend as soon as you squeeze them are a waste of
natural resources, but a solid but unrefined small set of household tools
for a fiver from Lidl are fine.

I fear that the problem is difficult to define and more so to solve, but I
stand by my sentiment that somehow we should clamp down on selling (and by
implication, soon binning) useless short lived crap. The country would be a
better place for it.

Cheers

Tim

In article , Peter A Forbes
writes
On Sun, 10 May 2009 22:57:00 +0100, Nigel Eaton
wrote:

I keep thinking I need a shot blasting cabinet in my life. Was this
place cheap, and are you prepared to name them?

The people we bought the crane from and the sandblaster cabinets page are he

http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/KMS-DI...asters_W0QQLHQ
5fSellerWithStoreZ1QQLHQ5fTitleDescZ1QQ_fsubZ1119 5387QQ_sasiZ1QQ_sidZ715
93093QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322

Watch that line doesn't break into two.

Thanks Peter, I shall have a rummage.

--
Nigel

When the only tools you have are an X3 mill, a
Colchester and assorted other stuff, every problem looks like a steam engine.

Tim S wrote:
Well, I don't have an answer - but I do think that perhaps (and this is an
extreme view which I won't bother defending) if a company buys another
company, it should get the assets, but not the right to use the name.


Maybe a bit extreme but it reminds me of Pyrex and a news article I read
some time ago. Apparently the brand was sold to a Chinese firm who
adjusted the formula for making the glass so it was cheaper, the net
result was Pyrex that was less stable and sometimes exploded when hot. A
number of customers were injured as a result. I don't know if the
Chinese firm has since reverted back to the original formulation or if
the Pyrex brand is now worth sh*t.

--
David in Normandy.

David in Normandy coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S wrote:
Well, I don't have an answer - but I do think that perhaps (and this is
an extreme view which I won't bother defending) if a company buys another
company, it should get the assets, but not the right to use the name.


Maybe a bit extreme but it reminds me of Pyrex and a news article I read
some time ago. Apparently the brand was sold to a Chinese firm who
adjusted the formula for making the glass so it was cheaper, the net
result was Pyrex that was less stable and sometimes exploded when hot. A
number of customers were injured as a result. I don't know if the
Chinese firm has since reverted back to the original formulation or if
the Pyrex brand is now worth sh*t.


A very good example of why name-selling should be prohibited. I know Pyrex
in their original guise could have pulled the same stunt, but I doubt they
would.

In article ,
David in Normandy writes:
Tim S wrote:
Well, I don't have an answer - but I do think that perhaps (and this is an
extreme view which I won't bother defending) if a company buys another
company, it should get the assets, but not the right to use the name.


Maybe a bit extreme but it reminds me of Pyrex and a news article I read
some time ago. Apparently the brand was sold to a Chinese firm who
adjusted the formula for making the glass so it was cheaper, the net
result was Pyrex that was less stable and sometimes exploded when hot. A
number of customers were injured as a result. I don't know if the
Chinese firm has since reverted back to the original formulation or if
the Pyrex brand is now worth sh*t.

The Pyrex name has been sold to different companies around the world,
and they don't all use the same Pyrex glass anymore. I've noticed
that Pyrex bought in the US is different quality to Pyrex bought in
the UK, even though the glass products look identical. They turn out
to be different glass.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Mon, 11 May 2009 08:08:11 +0100, Tim S wrote:
With the emphasis on the environment and landfill, there should be a serious
drive to discourage "tat consumerism" but that contradicts the capitalist
underpinnings of our flakey economy so it won't happen.

I would like to see something a bit more in-depth than the typical
consumer reviews, though - something which assessed case construction, PCB
quality, use of components which might stand a reasonable chance of still
being around in a few years (and/or which might be fabricated locally by
friendly fixit chap).

In other words, something which makes a stab at assessing product
longevity, rather than commenting on how well the thing works when it's
working or on what gimmicky features it has or how pretty it looks.

I suspect that a lot of people don't appreciate how bad the things they
buy are - they have no way of knowing because nobody tells them. I
think consumers generally want three things from a product:

1) A low up-front price,
2) For it to do what they need,
3) For it to last forever.

.... nobody takes a shot at the latter, so people buy based upon the
first two, even if it means they end up spending more in the long-run
because they're replacing the products more frequently than they
should have to.

cheers

Jules

Tim S wrote:
David in Normandy coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S wrote:
Well, I don't have an answer - but I do think that perhaps (and this is
an extreme view which I won't bother defending) if a company buys another
company, it should get the assets, but not the right to use the name.

Maybe a bit extreme but it reminds me of Pyrex and a news article I read
some time ago. Apparently the brand was sold to a Chinese firm who
adjusted the formula for making the glass so it was cheaper, the net
result was Pyrex that was less stable and sometimes exploded when hot. A
number of customers were injured as a result. I don't know if the
Chinese firm has since reverted back to the original formulation or if
the Pyrex brand is now worth sh*t.


A very good example of why name-selling should be prohibited. I know Pyrex
in their original guise could have pulled the same stunt, but I doubt they
would.

The firm that originally created Pyrex probably did a huge amount of
research and development getting the formulation perfect so it was
strong and stable at high temperatures - even if it meant small amounts
of various expensive ingredients in the glass. As a result Pyrex has
become a household brand name and trusted by many.

The last thing anyone wants is to remove a hot casserole from the oven
and for the Pyrex to go "bang" and shatter into hundreds of shards of
broken glass and boiling hot liquid all over the cook.

We recently needed to buy a new "Pyrex" casserole dish but being aware
of the news article and uncertain of the country of manufacture we left
the Pyrex on the supermarket shelf and bought a ceramic pot instead.
Brand names can easily be destroyed through shoddy practice.

--
David in Normandy.

Jules coughed up some electrons that declared:

On Mon, 11 May 2009 08:08:11 +0100, Tim S wrote:
With the emphasis on the environment and landfill, there should be a
serious drive to discourage "tat consumerism" but that contradicts the
capitalist underpinnings of our flakey economy so it won't happen.

I would like to see something a bit more in-depth than the typical
consumer reviews, though - something which assessed case construction, PCB
quality, use of components which might stand a reasonable chance of still
being around in a few years (and/or which might be fabricated locally by
friendly fixit chap).

Yes. I did a trial subscription to Which a few years back. It was probably
the same as it ever was and when there was nothing else, it was good (ie
better than nothing).

These days though, it seemed utterly pathetic. I'm used to reading massively
in depth reviews on dpreview.com (digital cameras) and equivalently
excellent field test reviews on PC motherboards and random computer kit.

Which's test of hoovers doesn't provide a good feedback, nor do they seem to
abuse them (coal dust on a white carpet or half a dog's worth of hair).

I know few reviews go as far as you say (occasionally, especially with
mobos, PCB and component quality is commented on) but there's really
nothing that in depth for white goods or tools. Well, not that I've come
across. You sometimes get the odd good power tool review where some SDS
gets taken to task, but there's no real central place to go.

For white goods, you can sometimes pick up stuff from the comments left on
the Argos website, but those guys don't take things to bits.

A few comments on the availability of spare parts would be nice too. I like
Vax hoovers - all the random bits are easy to buy online (don't know about
motor parts and switches though).

Bosch are excellent - there's an entire website selling Bosch parts with
exploded diagrams keyed by model number and serial number. You can buy
pretty much every damn nut that goes into one of those. It's daft things -
like the little cap on the water reservoir on my 10 year old Bosch dryer.
Every 3-4 years, the little "string" snaps off, meaning the cap is going to
fall off and get stuck in the machine eventually. I went and bought 3 for
very little cash a long while back and used one, stuck the rest in a
drawer.

When the Bosch dishwasher's filter started to come apart (6 years old) it
was a painless excercise to get another.

Trouble is geeks don't care about toasters - or SDS drills. And it's usually
geeks who would have the lid off something and be looking at the quality of
the bits inside.

Lots of digicam and PC geeks though.

Cheers

Tim

David in Normandy coughed up some electrons that declared:

The firm that originally created Pyrex probably did a huge amount of
research and development getting the formulation perfect so it was
strong and stable at high temperatures - even if it meant small amounts
of various expensive ingredients in the glass. As a result Pyrex has
become a household brand name and trusted by many.

The last thing anyone wants is to remove a hot casserole from the oven
and for the Pyrex to go "bang" and shatter into hundreds of shards of
broken glass and boiling hot liquid all over the cook.

We recently needed to buy a new "Pyrex" casserole dish but being aware
of the news article and uncertain of the country of manufacture we left
the Pyrex on the supermarket shelf and bought a ceramic pot instead.
Brand names can easily be destroyed through shoddy practice.


Apparantly, reading the Wikipedia article, they used to use borosilicate
glass. Now they only use that in lab equipment (so thus proving that the
substitute glass used in the cookware range isn't really a good substitute,
otherwise it would be good enough for lab gear).

I agree. We are in one of the worst states of consumerism that capitalism
has ever seen. Honour and reputation count for nothing except amongst a few
last bastions of quality.

But that's what the majority want and if someone can provide it, then the
bastions of good quality will be a minority as there are only a minority of
people who care of such things to patronise them.

It's good that you can buy a quite decent TV for a few hundred and a
reasonable but basic car new for maybe 6-7k (thinking VW Fox) - I'm not
advocating a return to the times when only the rich could afford cool
things. But I really really get ****ed off with all this "don't use any
nylocs - it'll save 50p" attitude.

Cheers

Tim

On May 9, 10:28*pm, "newshound" wrote:
"geoff" wrote in message

...

In message , David in Normandy
writes
I've had several disastrous purchases that on subsequent inspection turned
out to be Chinese and complete crap. Now I always look at the label before
buying anything. I treat "Made in China" as a hazard warning label and
never knowingly buy anything Chinese made.

I'm wondering what you might actually have bought then

--
geoff

My impression is that Chinese industry now is sort of comparable to Britain
in the height of the Industrial Revolution, except that they have embraced
Japanese quality control along the way.

Maybe when they are building for, or are a subsidiary of, a Japanese
company. There's a lot of crap made in China by Chinese companies. The
trouble is, some of us are only too willing to buy it.

MBQ

Huge coughed up some electrons that declared:

On 2009-05-11, Tim S wrote:

Trouble is geeks don't care about toasters

Judging from the strength of the debate here, I'd suspect otherwise...



Do you reckon if one (or a collective) of us started a formal review website
that toaster makers would send us free samples to abuse and dismember?

That's a neutral question BTW.

I know mobo makers and digicam companies view it as part of the marketing
excercise (and presumably the loan samples are budgeted from marketing
funds) as a decent review on a popular site = cost effective advertising.

Can I be Clarkson, please please:

"We put rocks in the pockets of old builder's trousers worn for 50 days
straight by Handy Andy, covered them in petrol, sawdust and 1/2 pound of
iron filings and horse glue and and ran them through our sample of washing
machines.

The Miele survived with only minor denting and the trousers - are - clean.

The spanish machine - as you can see - is now a heap of bolts and twisted
metal.

And the french machine looked like it was about to explode. Just to make
good on that, here's a bucket of thermite..."

And I'm fat enough

In message . com, Jules
writes
On Sun, 10 May 2009 22:57:00 +0100, Nigel Eaton wrote:
I keep thinking I need a shot blasting cabinet in my life.

How practical is it to make one?

Easy - BTDT

But Nigel's only 15 minutes down the road from me if he needs to use one

I think he's more interested in buying a new toy


--
geoff

Nigel Eaton wrote:
In article , Peter A
Forbes writes
On Sun, 10 May 2009 22:57:00 +0100, Nigel Eaton

wrote:

I keep thinking I need a shot blasting cabinet in my life. Was this
place cheap, and are you prepared to name them?

The people we bought the crane from and the sandblaster cabinets page
are he

http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/KMS-DI...asters_W0QQLHQ
5fSellerWithStoreZ1QQLHQ5fTitleDescZ1QQ_fsubZ11195 387QQ_sasiZ1QQ_sidZ715
93093QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322

Watch that line doesn't break into two.

Thanks Peter, I shall have a rummage.

I bought one of the small ones that looks like the one on the right
about a year ago, IIRC about £60 off ebay. For the price I couldn't be
bothered to make one and it works fairly well although the shallow catch
base is a bit too shallow and the area around the pickup can run out of
grit. I'm likely to fold up a deeper base soon and add legs so it's not
sitting on a workmate type thing. I have seen similar sized ones made
from clear plastic storage boxes. My larger blasting booth is in the
process of size reduction from 8' x 4' x 3' to 4' x 4' x 3', it's
collapsable so doesn't take up much space when not in use.