Hi all

I am currently considering whether to renovate our kitchen or to shell out
the 10k+ that it will cost to get it done (room is 3.6m x 5m).
One issue which I am not clear on is whether the SDS type chasey chisel
things will work on exterior brick.
Similar question is also posed for the use of socket box cutters IYSWIM.
Our kitchen is a single storey extension and therefore has one long wall
that is an exterior part of the original 1970s construction.
I don't have an SDS drill so it would mean laying out money for tools to do
this one job (the rest of the house is nearly sorted).

TIA

Phil

TheScullster wrote:
Hi all

I am currently considering whether to renovate our kitchen or to shell out
the 10k+ that it will cost to get it done (room is 3.6m x 5m).
One issue which I am not clear on is whether the SDS type chasey chisel
things will work on exterior brick.

Angle grinder. No seriously. Cut slots with an angle grinder and chase
out with an SDS chisel. Note though that this makes *one almighty hell*
of a lot of dust.

Similar question is also posed for the use of socket box cutters IYSWIM.
Our kitchen is a single storey extension and therefore has one long wall
that is an exterior part of the original 1970s construction.
I don't have an SDS drill so it would mean laying out money for tools to do
this one job (the rest of the house is nearly sorted).


IME, Socket box cutters work OK on soft blocks and reasonably well on
breeze blocks. For bricks and dense concrete blocks, they are not so
good to useless, depending on which type you get. YMMV.

In article ,
"TheScullster" writes:
Hi all

I am currently considering whether to renovate our kitchen or to shell out
the 10k+ that it will cost to get it done (room is 3.6m x 5m).
One issue which I am not clear on is whether the SDS type chasey chisel
things will work on exterior brick.
Similar question is also posed for the use of socket box cutters IYSWIM.
Our kitchen is a single storey extension and therefore has one long wall
that is an exterior part of the original 1970s construction.
I don't have an SDS drill so it would mean laying out money for tools to do
this one job (the rest of the house is nearly sorted).

If you're doing a whole kitchen, I would invest in a wall chaser,
which is basically an angle grinder which takes a pair of diamond
cutting disks, with disk spacing and cutting depth controls, and
a vacuum cleaner take-off (for which you'll need a Dyson, if you
really want to capture the dust).

The SDS will be useful too, but I wouldn't want to channel though
much brickwork with it alone. As for socket box cutters, I found
the circular cutter to be quite useful for sinking the holes, but
the squaring off tool was completely useless in brick -- a plain
SDS chisel bit works much better. The cutter sunk about 25 holes
for me in brick commons, before very suddenly stopping working
when it went blunt. In the kit I bought (many years ago with the
squaring off tool), that works out at £3 per sunk hole (£6 for
double sockets). I think you can buy the circular cutter alone
for less. It does generate lots of dust.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Dave Osborne wrote:

TheScullster wrote:
Hi all

I am currently considering whether to renovate our kitchen or to shell out
the 10k+ that it will cost to get it done (room is 3.6m x 5m).
One issue which I am not clear on is whether the SDS type chasey chisel
things will work on exterior brick.

Angle grinder. No seriously. Cut slots with an angle grinder and chase
out with an SDS chisel. Note though that this makes *one almighty hell*
of a lot of dust.

It's a daft way to do it IMO. The SDS wall chasers do the job faster and
with less dust.

On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:07:49 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:

Angle grinder. No seriously. Cut slots with an angle grinder and chase
out with an SDS chisel. Note though that this makes *one almighty hell*
of a lot of dust.

It's a daft way to do it IMO. The SDS wall chasers do the job faster and
with less dust.

My view as well. The SDS chisel will still produce dust but comparatively
coarse and no where near as much in quantity and without flinging it quite
so forceably into the atmosphere.

The angle grinder or chase cutter turns the entire volume of the slots it
makes into fine dust. A Chisel cuts its way through by spliting lumps off.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Worth a poke through the archives as wall chasing options have been
discussed quite a lot before.

If you want to go down the wall chaser route, certain branches of Aldi
are selling them off £20 and someone (can't remember who) said the
dust extraction was quite efficient when connected to a workshop vac.

If you haven't got an SDS, how about this offer at Wickes:

http://www.wickes.co.uk/Corded/700W-...ll/invt/195540

TheScullster wrote:

One issue which I am not clear on is whether the SDS type chasey chisel
things will work on exterior brick.

They do. I have chased runs in hard brick with a 2kg class SDS.

Similar question is also posed for the use of socket box cutters IYSWIM.

Not usually - these work best in soft blocks

Our kitchen is a single storey extension and therefore has one long wall
that is an exterior part of the original 1970s construction.
I don't have an SDS drill so it would mean laying out money for tools to do
this one job (the rest of the house is nearly sorted).

Given the difference in price between having it done and DIYing you
could probably spend a couple of k on tools and still come out a winner!
(feel free to use that line to sell SWMBO on the idea!)

For any quantity of chasing, get a two disc wall chaser:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Wall_chaser

That will make most of the slots very straight forward - the dust
collection controls the dust, and the SDS can break out the remaining
fillet of masonry very quickly and easily.

For socket back boxes in hard brick etc, I have found that a pair of
chisels for the SDS work as well as anything.

The way I use them is to offer the box to the wall, and draw round it.

Stick a 20mm chisel bit in the SDS and mark the box depth on it. Then
run round the perimeter line sinking the chisel to the depth mark.

Swap to a 40mm chisel, start about a third of the way in from the left
and chisel in and toward the left until you have the left hand end sunk
to the right depth. Repeat for the other end, and then you can take out
the centre bit and level up the back. If your SDS has a decent speed
controller then it is easy enough to plane down the back of the cut out.

With practice you can do a box in under five mins.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Dave Osborne wrote:
TheScullster wrote:
Hi all

I am currently considering whether to renovate our kitchen or to shell
out the 10k+ that it will cost to get it done (room is 3.6m x 5m).
One issue which I am not clear on is whether the SDS type chasey
chisel things will work on exterior brick.

Angle grinder. No seriously. Cut slots with an angle grinder and chase
out with an SDS chisel. Note though that this makes *one almighty hell*
of a lot of dust.

Or do the whole lot with cold chisels.


Similar question is also posed for the use of socket box cutters IYSWIM.
Our kitchen is a single storey extension and therefore has one long
wall that is an exterior part of the original 1970s construction.
I don't have an SDS drill so it would mean laying out money for tools
to do this one job (the rest of the house is nearly sorted).


IME, Socket box cutters work OK on soft blocks and reasonably well on
breeze blocks. For bricks and dense concrete blocks, they are not so
good to useless, depending on which type you get. YMMV.


I've had good reults using masonry drills around the edge, then a cold
chisel to remove the worst afterwards


the other possibility for a kitchen, especially it its relatively crap
walls.and you will be tiling, is to make a false wall out of MDF and run
cables behind it. This can be out in after cupboards etc go in, between
worktop and cupboards. Wiring is then done using back boxes surface
screwed to existing walls mated with cutouts in the MDF.

TheScullster wrote:
Hi all

I am currently considering whether to renovate our kitchen or to
shell out the 10k+ that it will cost to get it done (room is 3.6m x
5m). One issue which I am not clear on is whether the SDS type chasey
chisel things will work on exterior brick.
Similar question is also posed for the use of socket box cutters
IYSWIM. Our kitchen is a single storey extension and therefore has
one long wall that is an exterior part of the original 1970s
construction. I don't have an SDS drill so it would mean laying out money
for tools
to do this one job (the rest of the house is nearly sorted).

TIA

Phil

I can't fathom out why anyone would use a tool like this.
I've worked with dozens of electricians in all kinds of properties for over
20 years and I've never seen a wall chaser being used by any of them, they
simply cut through the mortar, which lets face it is usually sand and lime
and therefore dust with skimming holing it back - it can be either sliced
through with a stanley knife and raked out with a cold chisel, or if it's
bonding / browning / render, then it's just a matter of running a bolster
down it and clip the cables to the brick underneath.

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

Phil L wrote:

I can't fathom out why anyone would use a tool like this.
I've worked with dozens of electricians in all kinds of properties for over
20 years and I've never seen a wall chaser being used by any of them, they
simply cut through the mortar, which lets face it is usually sand and lime
and therefore dust with skimming holing it back - it can be either sliced
through with a stanley knife and raked out with a cold chisel, or if it's
bonding / browning / render, then it's just a matter of running a bolster
down it and clip the cables to the brick underneath.

How do you do a vertical chase like that then? (can't think of many
brick patterns that have vertical mortar runs)...

Having said that - I am surprised you have not seen chasers in action.

My last place had fearsomely hard plaster and bricks. If you wanted some
oval trunking in a chase then you needed to go about a 1/4" into the
bricks as well. A bolster a club hammer was painfully slow and hard work
- about 20 mins to half an hour for a full drop chase. With a SDS and
chisel bit that would come down to 5 to 10 mins, and with a chaser, and
using a slim bolster to pop out the fillet, you could do the same chase
in under 2 mins.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

How do you do a vertical chase like that then? (can't think of many
brick patterns that have vertical mortar runs)...

Having said that - I am surprised you have not seen chasers in action.


And on t'other hand what about fearsomely loose plaster? Do
professional sparks also use a bolster and club hammer on old Victorian
plaster and leave the customer to pay for the repair of the very, very
large chunks of plaster which then detach from the walls? (I know I
ought redo the whole thing but I'm not one of those pact-with-the-devil
people who can get large areas flat.)

I've not invested in a wall chaser (yet) but have used an angle grinder
on some hard bits. And have sacrificed the odd old tenon saw on softer
bits: well it worked for me at the time......

--
Robin

In message , neverwas
writes

How do you do a vertical chase like that then? (can't think of many
brick patterns that have vertical mortar runs)...

Having said that - I am surprised you have not seen chasers in action.


And on t'other hand what about fearsomely loose plaster? Do
professional sparks also use a bolster and club hammer on old Victorian
plaster and leave the customer to pay for the repair of the very, very
large chunks of plaster which then detach from the walls?


Stanley knife, score down through the plaster to the wall each side of
the channel. Then the plaster can be scraped out of the channel with an
old screwdriver or chisel.

--
Chris French

In message , John Rumm
writes
Phil L wrote:

I can't fathom out why anyone would use a tool like this.
I've worked with dozens of electricians in all kinds of properties
for over 20 years and I've never seen a wall chaser being used by any
of them, they simply cut through the mortar, which lets face it is
usually sand and lime and therefore dust with skimming holing it back
- it can be either sliced through with a stanley knife and raked out
with a cold chisel, or if it's bonding / browning / render, then it's
just a matter of running a bolster down it and clip the cables to the
brick underneath.

How do you do a vertical chase like that then? (can't think of many
brick patterns that have vertical mortar runs)...

Having said that - I am surprised you have not seen chasers in action.

My last place had fearsomely hard plaster and bricks. If you wanted
some oval trunking in a chase then you needed to go about a 1/4" into
the bricks as well.

But the pro spakies probably didn't bother with any sort of trunking,
and so in most situations (like our ood house) only needed to remove
plaster.

--
Chris French

chris French wrote:
In message , John
Rumm writes
Phil L wrote:

I can't fathom out why anyone would use a tool like this.
I've worked with dozens of electricians in all kinds of properties
for over 20 years and I've never seen a wall chaser being used by
any of them, they simply cut through the mortar, which lets face
it is usually sand and lime and therefore dust with skimming
holing it back - it can be either sliced through with a stanley
knife and raked out with a cold chisel, or if it's bonding /
browning / render, then it's just a matter of running a bolster down it
and clip the cables to the brick underneath.

How do you do a vertical chase like that then? (can't think of many
brick patterns that have vertical mortar runs)...

Having said that - I am surprised you have not seen chasers in
action. My last place had fearsomely hard plaster and bricks. If you
wanted
some oval trunking in a chase then you needed to go about a 1/4"
into the bricks as well.

But the pro spakies probably didn't bother with any sort of trunking,
and so in most situations (like our ood house) only needed to remove
plaster.

That's correct, trunking isn't required.
And as far as using one on old plaster, I can imagine an entire wall falling
off if one of these was used on it


--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

Stanley knife, score down through the plaster to the wall each side of
the channel. Then the plaster can be scraped out of the channel with
an old screwdriver or chisel.

Yes, thanks, that's my starting point. But in some places the plaster's
too thin so I need to get into the bricks. (This is mainly on internal
walls where I suspect the apprentice did some practice.) Then there
are other places where it's been patched with what looks seems to be
some kind of concrete (which is where I've resorted to the angle
grinder).
--
Robin

And as far as using one on old plaster, I can imagine an entire wall
falling off if one of these was used on it

Well I suppose I can score that as money saved then

--
Robin

chris French wrote:
In message , neverwas
writes

How do you do a vertical chase like that then? (can't think of many
brick patterns that have vertical mortar runs)...

Having said that - I am surprised you have not seen chasers in action.


And on t'other hand what about fearsomely loose plaster? Do
professional sparks also use a bolster and club hammer on old Victorian
plaster and leave the customer to pay for the repair of the very, very
large chunks of plaster which then detach from the walls?


Stanley knife, score down through the plaster to the wall each side of
the channel. Then the plaster can be scraped out of the channel with an
old screwdriver or chisel.

FSV of "plaster"

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

FSV of "plaster"

what is FSV?

http://www.acronymfinder.com/FSV.html

?

In message , "george (dicegeorge)"
writes

FSV of "plaster"

what is FSV?

http://www.acronymfinder.com/FSV.html

?
Err ...

For Some Version ... of
--
geoff

george (dicegeorge) wrote:


FSV of "plaster"

what is FSV?

For Some Values of...

i.e. not all plaster is created equal. Nice modern gypsum stuff is
usually fairly easy to chase, and some Victorian lime plaster is also
easy to work. However some (especially 50's places IME) seem to be
plastered in something closer to a cement render. Often the skim coat is
weak and has a habit of blowing, but the base coat is as hard as brick.
Same obviously applies to places that have been treated for damp or
tanked and literally are rendered inside.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

i.e. not all plaster is created equal. Nice modern gypsum stuff is
usually fairly easy to chase, and some Victorian lime plaster is also
easy to work. However some (especially 50's places IME) seem to be
plastered in something closer to a cement render. Often the skim coat is
weak and has a habit of blowing, but the base coat is as hard as brick.
Same obviously applies to places that have been treated for damp or
tanked and literally are rendered inside.

Sirapite was IMO way too hard for a plaster but was used through the
first half of the 20th C. You can't cut it (or Parian) with a Stanley
knife. It's a ******* to drill using a masonry drill.

John Rumm wrote:
Phil L wrote:

I can't fathom out why anyone would use a tool like this.
I've worked with dozens of electricians in all kinds of properties
for over 20 years and I've never seen a wall chaser being used by
any of them, they simply cut through the mortar, which lets face it
is usually sand and lime and therefore dust with skimming holing it
back - it can be either sliced through with a stanley knife and
raked out with a cold chisel, or if it's bonding / browning /
render, then it's just a matter of running a bolster down it and
clip the cables to the brick underneath.

How do you do a vertical chase like that then? (can't think of many
brick patterns that have vertical mortar runs)...

I'm afraid I don't follow...you mean you want to cut through the plaster,
through the brick and have the chasing an inch or more deep? - what for?


Having said that - I am surprised you have not seen chasers in action.

almost all plaster is deep enough to hold a cable and a clip


My last place had fearsomely hard plaster and bricks. If you wanted
some oval trunking in a chase then you needed to go about a 1/4"
into the bricks as well. A bolster a club hammer was painfully slow
and hard work - about 20 mins to half an hour for a full drop chase.
With a SDS and chisel bit that would come down to 5 to 10 mins, and
with a chaser, and using a slim bolster to pop out the fillet, you
could do the same chase in under 2 mins.



I can't understand the fascination WRT trunking, I've never seen this used
in domestic properties

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

Phil L coughed up some electrons that declared:

I can't understand the fascination WRT trunking, I've never seen this used
in domestic properties


Possibility to rethread cable? Maybe not so important with mains, but *very*
useful with ELV/comms drops, especially if you don't know what you want to
put in them at first (or second) fix time

I've found that 16mm oval which is barely much thicker than T+E will take
2.5mm2 T+E or upto 2 typical comms cables, including TV type coax.

BTW - I'm installing a perimeter roof run of 200x30mm + 100x60mm wire basket
in my house - bet you've never seen that done ;-

Cheers

Tim

In article ,
Tim S writes:
Phil L coughed up some electrons that declared:

I can't understand the fascination WRT trunking, I've never seen this used
in domestic properties

All houses I've done anything with have been initially wired with
capping, and that's made rewiring very easy (only on one occation
could I not pull though the new cable, or rather, pull out the old
cable).

I almost always use oval trunking when chasing new runs.

Possibility to rethread cable? Maybe not so important with mains, but *very*
useful with ELV/comms drops, especially if you don't know what you want to
put in them at first (or second) fix time

I've found that 16mm oval which is barely much thicker than T+E will take
2.5mm2 T+E or upto 2 typical comms cables, including TV type coax.

You can get 12.5mm oval, which will take a triple and earth,
and probably also a 2.5mm T&E. I also use for Cat 5e.

BTW - I'm installing a perimeter roof run of 200x30mm + 100x60mm wire basket
in my house - bet you've never seen that done ;-

Ah, mice runs ;-)

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]