Another one for input...


===Washing up liquid===
Probably the fastest acting detergent, but one of the least powerful.
Removes many types of dirt very quickly. Dries skin.

Washing up liquid can be used for urgent clothes washing, it can give
a quick refresh wash in a few minutes. But it can't remove all types
of dirt, and is not adequate for regular use.

Do not use washing liquid in washing machines, it creates a greasy
film that makes the machine pong.

Don't use wasing liquid to clean carpets. It leaves a slightly sticky
residue that attracts further dirt.

Washing liquid can be used as a lubricant for sash window runners and
for driving stiff [[screws]].

Washing liquid can be wiped onto just dried oil-based [[paint]] to
prevent sticking and allow prompt reassembly and smoooth running - and
let you close the front door after painting!

Low cost washing liquids contain less detergent and are thickened with
salt. Which is better value is such a trivial question that its seen
long debates on [[Newsgroups|usenet]].



===Liquid soaps===
More or less all products sold as liquid soaps are based on a
detergent called sodium lauryl ethyl sulphate, aka sodium laureth
sulphate, plus various additives (preservatives, colour, perfume,
sometimes oil & emulsifier). This is a nearly universal low cost skin
cleaning detergent, and a known very slight skin irritant. Nearly all
brands of skin cleaner contain it, regardless of purported quality.

Such products are ill suited to general cleaning since they often
contain oils and fats, are a relatively high price per litre, and are
somewhat mild.


===Shampoos===
Much the same constitutents as liquid soaps. Anti dandruff shampoos
contain an antifungal, such as selenium sulphide. [[oil|Conditioners]]
also contain [[oil]].



===Ecover washing up liquid===
* Based mostly on plant products.
* Not as irritant to skin as sodim laureth sulphate
* Can strip [[paint|emulsion]] if soaked
* Non toxic.
* Can be used as body wash and shampoo
* Add a little [[oil]] to make a [[oil|conditioning shampoo]] or for
dry skin

For people with skin irritated by washing powder its possible to use
ecover washing up liquid to replace most of the wahsing powder when
clothes washing. Use one tablespoonful of each per load, don't overdo
it as it doesn't contain anti foaming agents, and use conventional
powders for other washes to prevent muck buildup in the machine. If
you misjudge the amount to use, the froth monster will come after you.



===Washing powder===
Much more powerful than washing liquids, effective degreasing with hot
water. Alkaline. Much more drying and irritant to skin than any
washing up liquid.

Biological powders also contain enzymes to improve their cleaning
action at 40C, but the enzymes stop working at higher temps. Washing
powders contain various additives such as oxygen bleach, blue,
powdered cardboard filler, and a huge array of stain removers.

An overnight soak with bio powder can remove a wide range of stains
and organic materials, so is a good first line of treatment for
unknown stains.

Biological washing powder is the ultimate cleaner in terms of its
ability to digest a very wide range of dirt types. However to destroy
them all requires warmth and days of soaking. This can (rarely) be
worth doing for dirt that has resisted all other forms of attack.


===Washing powder tablets===
These are just washing powder, but they take time to dissolve. This
gives them less cleaning time per wash than powders.

If placed in the soap drawer they sometimes fail to dissolve in time,
giving a poor wash, and the clothes are left with a residue of
irritant washing powder due to being rinsed in weak detergent solution
instead of clean water.


===Dishwasher detergent, powders and tablets===
* A powerful alkaline detergent.
* Requires hot water to work effectively.
* The most irritant detergent to skin, skin contact is best avoided.
* The detergent gradually attacks some types of glass, making it go
cloudy in time.


===Dishwasher detergent, liquid===
....use a different chemistry to powders.


===Wonder / miracle / magic cleaners / stain removers===
A lot of these contain oxygen based laundry bleach. These often
feature 'oxi' in the name.

Some are just ordinary washing detergents.


===Soap (bar)===
Soap for skin cleaning is superfatted, meaning it contains free fat
and no free caustic. To some extent this counters soap's tendency to
dry skin. This fat makes it unsuitable for household cleaning, and so
outside the scope of this FAQ.

In poorer countries a wider variety of soaps are found, with bars for
household cleaning, shampooing, laundry etc, but these are not so
often seen in Britain. If you want to find them, look for them at
Indian supermarkets. They're often sold in big bars a foot or so long,
and you slice off a new soap bar when you need one. The colours
indicate which type of soap it is. These are all based on soaps rather
than more modern detergents. They make very economical cleaners, but
are not widely available, not widely used, and better cleaning
products are now popular.

Soaps may be used for cleaning gold and silver jewellery.


===Sugar soap===
A soap that has nothing to do with sugar, and is definitely not
edible.

Used primarily to clean [[paint]]work, as traces of this soap don't
affect household paints much. Other detergents can be used instead if
rinsed off.

Washing painted walls is sometimes sufficient to rejuvenate them and
delay the need to re-[[paint]].

On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:45:58 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Washing liquid can be wiped onto just dried oil-based [[paint]] to
prevent sticking and allow prompt reassembly and smoooth running - and
let you close the front door after painting!

Woo-hoo! For that one alone, thank you. :-)

On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:45:58 -0800 (PST), wrote:

===Ecover washing up liquid===
* Based mostly on plant products.
* Not as irritant to skin as sodim laureth sulphate
* Can strip [[paint|emulsion]] if soaked
* Non toxic.
* Can be used as body wash and shampoo
* Add a little [[oil]] to make a [[oil|conditioning shampoo]] or for
dry skin

For people with skin irritated by washing powder its possible to use
ecover washing up liquid to replace most of the wahsing powder when
clothes washing. Use one tablespoonful of each per load, don't overdo
it as it doesn't contain anti foaming agents, and use conventional
powders for other washes to prevent muck buildup in the machine. If
you misjudge the amount to use, the froth monster will come after you.

I've used Ecover WUL for clothes, hair and skin for over 20 years now when
away from home.
A 150ml bottle is enough for 2 - 3 weeks, so not much to carry, and is the
only substance that I find acceptable.
About 20 years ago, a YH that I used a lot wanted to change over to Ecover
products. The warden asked me about Healtha and Safety data, so I got
everything from Ecover. On the sheet for the WUL, under ingestion, is said
something like 'don't drink too much of it'! Bit different from
'conventional' WULs!

I tend to use Bio-D now; the laundry liquid seems better than Ecover's and
the machine doesn't build up clag and stench.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

wrote:

Another one for input...

It needs work, some of it is misleading.

"Do not use washing liquid in washing machines, it creates a greasy
film that makes the machine pong."


Surely another reason is that it would create too much lather.



Not sure that Liquid Soaps contain Fat - Bar soaps do. I use liquid soaps
only as they don't give a scum or leave spots on the shower screen.

John wrote:
"Do not use washing liquid in washing machines, it creates a greasy
film that makes the machine pong."


Surely another reason is that it would create too much lather.



Not sure that Liquid Soaps contain Fat - Bar soaps do. I use liquid soaps
only as they don't give a scum or leave spots on the shower screen.


soaps and detergents are olefins IIRC with a bit chopped off the end an
an OH group added by dint of being hit with alkalis. The OH bit is
water soluble and the organic bit dissolves with greases.


For soap you start with long chain fats, for detergent with oils,
possibly vegetable, more likely petroleum.

Most washing up liquid is treated with things that*

- make it bubble.
- make it thick
- give it a nice pong
- give it a suitable color.
- take out any calcium ions to prevent scum in hard water areas.

Only the last has anything to do with its abilities to wash dishes.

Frankly, you could load a dishwasher with sodium hydroxide, and it would
probably work better than most detergents.

We don't hand wash with it because it turns your hands into soap...

*My chemistry master spent 5 years at Unilever...

John wrote:

"Do not use washing liquid in washing machines, it creates a greasy
film that makes the machine pong."


Surely another reason is that it would create too much lather.

its fine in that respect, as long as you dont overdo it. The
difference with automatic powders is that they prevent foam monstering
when overdosed.


Not sure that Liquid Soaps contain Fat - Bar soaps do.

some do some dont. Its all in the ingredients list.

I use liquid soaps
only as they don't give a scum or leave spots on the shower screen.

good point, will add that.


NT

wrote:
John wrote:

"Do not use washing liquid in washing machines, it creates a greasy
film that makes the machine pong."


Surely another reason is that it would create too much lather.

its fine in that respect, as long as you dont overdo it. The
difference with automatic powders is that they prevent foam monstering
when overdosed.


Not sure that Liquid Soaps contain Fat - Bar soaps do.

some do some dont. Its all in the ingredients list.


What use would a soap be that contained fat?

I use liquid soaps
only as they don't give a scum or leave spots on the shower screen.

good point, will add that.


NT

Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:
John wrote:

"Do not use washing liquid in washing machines, it creates a greasy
film that makes the machine pong."


Surely another reason is that it would create too much lather.

its fine in that respect, as long as you dont overdo it. The
difference with automatic powders is that they prevent foam monstering
when overdosed.


Not sure that Liquid Soaps contain Fat - Bar soaps do.

some do some dont. Its all in the ingredients list.


What use would a soap be that contained fat?

I use liquid soaps
only as they don't give a scum or leave spots on the shower screen.

good point, will add that.


NT

IIRC some detergents contain lanolin (or similar) to reduce their impact
on poor delicate hands. Like mine. :-)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Steve Firth wrote:
wrote:

Another one for input...

It needs work, some of it is misleading.

Any chance you would care to elaborate?


(that is rather the point of posting articles here for peer review prior
to sticking them in the wiki).


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Stuart Noble wrote:

Not sure that Liquid Soaps contain Fat - Bar soaps do.

some do some dont. Its all in the ingredients list.


What use would a soap be that contained fat?

At a guess, to make the lather feel more luxurious, and to act as a
moisturiser.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:

Not sure that Liquid Soaps contain Fat - Bar soaps do.

some do some dont. Its all in the ingredients list.


What use would a soap be that contained fat?

At a guess, to make the lather feel more luxurious, and to act as a
moisturiser.

yes, plus commercial and safety reasons. Its explained in the latest
version I'll post.


NT

wrote:
Another one for input...

Latest version, with more info on soaps & dishwasher blocks



Detergent


==Washing up liquid==
Probably the fastest acting detergent, but one of the least powerful.
Removes many types of dirt very quickly. Dries skin.

Washing up liquid can be used for urgent clothes washing, it can give
a quick refresh wash in a few minutes. But it can't remove all types
of dirt, and is not adequate for regular use.

Do not use washing liquid in washing machines, it creates a greasy
film that makes the machine pong.

Don't use wasing liquid to clean carpets. It leaves a slightly sticky
residue that attracts further dirt.

Washing liquid can be used as a lubricant for sash window runners and
for driving stiff [[screws]].

Washing liquid can be wiped onto just dried oil-based [[paint]] to
prevent sticking and allow prompt reassembly and smoooth running - and
let you close the front door after painting!

Low cost washing liquids contain less detergent and are thickened with
salt. Which is better value is such a trivial question that its seen
long debates on [[Newsgroups|usenet]].



==Liquid soaps==
More or less all products sold as liquid soaps are based on a
detergent called sodium lauryl ethyl sulphate, aka sodium laureth
sulphate or SLES, which isn't really a soap. They also have various
additives (preservatives, colour, perfume, sometimes oil &
emulsifier). SLES is a nearly universal low cost skin cleaning
detergent, and a known very slight skin irritant. Nearly all brands of
skin cleaner contain it, regardless of purported quality.

Such products are ill suited to general cleaning since some contain
oils and fats, most are a relatively high price per litre, and they're
somewhat mild cleaners.

There have also been safety concerns voiced over SLES products,
convering its contmination with the toxic 1,4-dioxane. The
significance of this is still debated. The related compound sodium
lauryl sulphate, or SLS, is not so affected, but it is more irritant.


==Shampoos==
Much the same constitutents as liquid soaps. Anti dandruff shampoos
contain an antifungal, such as selenium sulphide. [[oil|Conditioners]]
also contain [[oil]].



==Ecover washing up liquid==
* Based mostly on plant products.
* Not as irritant to skin as sodim laureth sulphate
* Can strip [[paint|emulsion]] if soaked
* Non toxic.
* Can be used as body wash and shampoo
* Add a little [[oil]] to make a [[oil|conditioning shampoo]] or for
dry skin

For people with skin irritated by washing powder its possible to use
ecover washing up liquid to replace most of the wahsing powder when
clothes washing. Use one tablespoonful of each per load, don't overdo
it as it doesn't contain anti foaming agents, and use conventional
powders for other washes to prevent muck buildup in the machine. If
you misjudge the amount to use, the froth monster will come after you.



==Washing powder==
Much more powerful than washing liquids, effective degreasing with hot
water. Alkaline soaps with phosphates. Drying and somewhat irritant to
skin.

Biological powders also contain enzymes to improve their cleaning
action at 40C, but the enzymes stop working at higher temps. Washing
powders also contain various additives such as oxygen bleach, blue dye
to counter yellowing, powdered cardboard filler, alkali, and generally
a huge array of stain removers.

An overnight soak with bio powder can remove a wide range of stains
and organic materials, so is a good first line of treatment for
unknown stains.

Biological washing powder is the ultimate cleaner in terms of its
ability to digest a very wide range of dirt types. However to destroy
them all takes days of soaking and warmth. This can (rarely) be worth
doing for dirt that has resisted all other forms of attack.


==Washing powder tablets==
These are just washing powder, but they take time to dissolve. This
gives them less cleaning time per wash than powders.

If placed in the soap drawer they sometimes fail to dissolve in time,
giving a poor wash, and the clothes are left with a residue of
irritant washing powder due to being rinsed in weak detergent solution
instead of clean water.


==Dishwasher detergent==
===Powder==
* Strong alkali & detergent.
* Require hot water to work effectively.
* The most irritant detergent to skin, skin contact should be avoided.
* The detergent gradually attacks some types of glass, making it go
cloudy in time.


===Tablet===
3 in 1 Tablets contain detergent, salt and rinse aid all in one block.
The formulation attempts to time the release of these to coincide with
the required stages of washing. This timing isn't accurate, but seems
to be adequate for non-fussy users.

Although the blocks contain some salt, its release cant be timed
effectively, and its not good practice to neglect filling the ion
exchanger with salt.

5 in 1 tablets have added stain removers.


===Liquid===
....use a different chemistry to powders.


==Wonder / miracle / magic cleaners / stain removers==
A lot of these contain oxygen based laundry bleach. These often
feature 'oxi' in the name.

Some are just ordinary laundry soap, or laundry soap & phosphates.

Small bottles of chemicals for removing specific stains are not
detergents, and not covered here.


==Soap (bar)==
Bar soaps and washing powder are real soaps, whereas the others here
are more modern detergents. All soaps are made by reaction between a
strong alkali and fats or oils, and unless the soap batches are
carefully hand adjusted (which is not usual practice), the end result
inevitably contains either excess fat or excess caustic alkali.

Soaps for skin cleaning are superfatted, meaning they contains some
fat and very little free alkali. To some extent the fat counters
soap's tendency to dry skin. The fat content makes bar soap unsuitable
for household cleaning. Soaps also tend to leave scum and spots on
baths & showers, more so than other detergents.

The various different types of bar soap are made from different fats,
and have differing colour & perfume added. Clear soaps have some
additional processing.

In poorer countries a wider variety of soaps are found, with bars for
household cleaning, shampooing, laundry etc, but these are not so
often seen in Britain. If you want to find them, look in Indian
supermarkets. They're often sold in big bars a foot or so long, and
you slice off a new soap bar when you need one. The colours indicate
which type of soap it is. These are all based on soaps rather than
more modern detergents. They make very economical cleaners, but are
not widely available, not widely used, and more effective cleaning
products are now popular.

Soaps may be used for cleaning gold and silver jewellery.


==Sugar soap==
A soap that has nothing to do with sugar, and is definitely not
edible.

Used primarily to clean [[paint]]work, as traces of this soap don't
affect household paints much. Other detergents can be used instead if
rinsed off.

Washing painted walls is sometimes sufficient to rejuvenate them and
delay the need to re-[[paint]].




==See Also==
* [[Special:Allpages|Wiki Contents]]
* [[Special:Categories|Wiki Subject Categories]]



[[Category:Cleaning]]

In article ,
Stuart Noble writes:

What use would a soap be that contained fat?

Very good for washing things with.
That's how (solid) soap is made (and has been since it was invented).
The fat is used to dissolve the oils/fats you are washing off, but
has been modified at one end of the molecule to be ionic (water
soluable), so it makes the oils/fats appear to be water soluable,
so you can wash them off with water.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

John Rumm wrote:

Steve Firth wrote:
wrote:

Another one for input...

It needs work, some of it is misleading.

Any chance you would care to elaborate?

Yes, but I'm busy ATM.

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Stuart Noble writes:
What use would a soap be that contained fat?

Very good for washing things with.
That's how (solid) soap is made (and has been since it was invented).

I thought originally it was oil saponified with alkali, with a more
liquid soap being produced with potassium, rather than sodium,
hydroxide. Maybe less than total saponification gives you an oilier soap?

The fat is used to dissolve the oils/fats you are washing off, but
has been modified at one end of the molecule to be ionic (water
soluable), so it makes the oils/fats appear to be water soluable,
so you can wash them off with water.

wrote:
wrote:
Another one for input...

Latest version, with more info on soaps & dishwasher blocks



Detergent


==Washing up liquid==
Probably the fastest acting detergent, but one of the least powerful.
Removes many types of dirt very quickly. Dries skin.

Washing up liquid can be used for urgent clothes washing, it can give
a quick refresh wash in a few minutes. But it can't remove all types
of dirt, and is not adequate for regular use.

Do not use washing liquid in washing machines, it creates a greasy
film that makes the machine pong.

Shouldn't that be 'washing-up liquid'?

Don't use wasing liquid to clean carpets. It leaves a slightly sticky
residue that attracts further dirt.

Shouldn't that be 'washing-up liquid'?

Any reason for switching from 'Do not' to 'Don't'? Might be boring, but
I think sticking to one reads and looks better.

Washing liquid can be used as a lubricant for sash window runners and
for driving stiff [[screws]].

Shouldn't that be 'washing-up liquid'?

Washing liquid can be wiped onto just dried oil-based [[paint]] to
prevent sticking and allow prompt reassembly and smoooth running - and
let you close the front door after painting!

Shouldn't that be 'washing-up liquid'?

Low cost washing liquids contain less detergent and are thickened with
salt. Which is better value is such a trivial question that its seen
long debates on [[Newsgroups|usenet]].

Shouldn't that be 'washing-up liquid'? Shouldn't that be 'it's'? Or,
even better, 'it has'?

==Liquid soaps==
More or less all products sold as liquid soaps are based on a
detergent called sodium lauryl ethyl sulphate, aka sodium laureth
sulphate or SLES, which isn't really a soap. They also have various
additives (preservatives, colour, perfume, sometimes oil &
emulsifier). SLES is a nearly universal low cost skin cleaning
detergent, and a known very slight skin irritant. Nearly all brands of
skin cleaner contain it, regardless of purported quality.

Such products are ill suited to general cleaning since some contain
oils and fats, most are a relatively high price per litre, and they're
somewhat mild cleaners.

There have also been safety concerns voiced over SLES products,
convering its contmination with the toxic 1,4-dioxane. The
significance of this is still debated. The related compound sodium
lauryl sulphate, or SLS, is not so affected, but it is more irritant.


==Shampoos==
Much the same constitutents as liquid soaps. Anti dandruff shampoos
contain an antifungal, such as selenium sulphide. [[oil|Conditioners]]
also contain [[oil]].



==Ecover washing up liquid==
* Based mostly on plant products.
* Not as irritant to skin as sodim laureth sulphate
* Can strip [[paint|emulsion]] if soaked
* Non toxic.
* Can be used as body wash and shampoo
* Add a little [[oil]] to make a [[oil|conditioning shampoo]] or for
dry skin

For people with skin irritated by washing powder its possible to use
ecover washing up liquid to replace most of the wahsing powder when
clothes washing. Use one tablespoonful of each per load, don't overdo
it as it doesn't contain anti foaming agents, and use conventional
powders for other washes to prevent muck buildup in the machine. If
you misjudge the amount to use, the froth monster will come after you.

Wouldn't it be better to move this next to 'Washing-up liquid'?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Main reason I noticed the washing liquid/washing-up liquid problem is
partner. She puts 'washing liquid' on the shopping list and I come back
with Fairy washing-up liquid. Time and again!

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Stuart Noble wrote:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Stuart Noble writes:
What use would a soap be that contained fat?

Very good for washing things with.
That's how (solid) soap is made (and has been since it was invented).

I thought originally it was oil saponified with alkali, with a more
liquid soap being produced with potassium, rather than sodium,
hydroxide. Maybe less than total saponification gives you an oilier soap?


nah. It was sheep fat or lanolin and lye, mainly, lye being caustic soda.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Stuart Noble writes:
What use would a soap be that contained fat?

Very good for washing things with.
That's how (solid) soap is made (and has been since it was invented).

I thought originally it was oil saponified with alkali, with a more
liquid soap being produced with potassium, rather than sodium,
hydroxide. Maybe less than total saponification gives you an oilier soap?


nah. It was sheep fat or lanolin and lye, mainly, lye being caustic soda.

Castile soap, from olive oil, has been around for a few centuries

On 20 Jan, 15:59, wrote:
wrote:
Another one for input...

Latest version, with more info on soaps & dishwasher blocks

Detergent


==Wonder / miracle / magic cleaners / stain removers==
A lot of these contain oxygen based laundry bleach. These often
feature 'oxi' in the name.

Some are just ordinary laundry soap, or laundry soap & phosphates.

Small bottles of chemicals for removing specific stains are not
detergents, and not covered here.


A lot of these contain chemicals that produce hydrogen peroxide when
used. These often feature 'oxi' in the name. The actual chemical used
is often sodium perborate, which is normally mixed with an activator
(tetraacetylethylenediamine) to make it effective at lower wash
temperatures. Sodium percarbonate is another popular choice.

Regards,

Sid

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 02:57:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

-------------------8
A lot of these contain chemicals that produce hydrogen peroxide when
used. These often feature 'oxi' in the name. The actual chemical used
is often sodium perborate, ...

Partially the progenitor of the brand name "Persil" (actually from
perborate and silicate), I was once told.

Stuart Noble wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Stuart Noble writes:
What use would a soap be that contained fat?

Very good for washing things with.
That's how (solid) soap is made (and has been since it was invented).

I thought originally it was oil saponified with alkali, with a more
liquid soap being produced with potassium, rather than sodium,
hydroxide. Maybe less than total saponification gives you an oilier
soap?


nah. It was sheep fat or lanolin and lye, mainly, lye being caustic soda.

Castile soap, from olive oil, has been around for a few centuries

lye soap has been around longer...

wrote:
On 20 Jan, 15:59, wrote:
wrote:
Another one for input...

Latest version, with more info on soaps & dishwasher blocks

Detergent


==Wonder / miracle / magic cleaners / stain removers==
A lot of these contain oxygen based laundry bleach. These often
feature 'oxi' in the name.

Some are just ordinary laundry soap, or laundry soap & phosphates.

Small bottles of chemicals for removing specific stains are not
detergents, and not covered here.


A lot of these contain chemicals that produce hydrogen peroxide when
used. These often feature 'oxi' in the name. The actual chemical used
is often sodium perborate, which is normally mixed with an activator
(tetraacetylethylenediamine) to make it effective at lower wash
temperatures. Sodium percarbonate is another popular choice.

Regards,

Sid

thanks, I've slotted that in.


NT

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Stuart Noble writes:
What use would a soap be that contained fat?

Very good for washing things with.
That's how (solid) soap is made (and has been since it was invented).

I thought originally it was oil saponified with alkali, with a more
liquid soap being produced with potassium, rather than sodium,
hydroxide. Maybe less than total saponification gives you an oilier
soap?


nah. It was sheep fat or lanolin and lye, mainly, lye being caustic
soda.

Castile soap, from olive oil, has been around for a few centuries

lye soap has been around longer...

The alkali is neither here nor there, but it seems animal fats were the
norm in Roman times. Odd that they didn't try olives.

Stuart Noble wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Stuart Noble writes:
What use would a soap be that contained fat?

Very good for washing things with.
That's how (solid) soap is made (and has been since it was invented).

I thought originally it was oil saponified with alkali, with a more
liquid soap being produced with potassium, rather than sodium,
hydroxide. Maybe less than total saponification gives you an oilier
soap?


nah. It was sheep fat or lanolin and lye, mainly, lye being caustic
soda.

Castile soap, from olive oil, has been around for a few centuries

lye soap has been around longer...

The alkali is neither here nor there, but it seems animal fats were the
norm in Roman times. Odd that they didn't try olives.
Too good to waste on washing.

Huge wrote:

Ooh, the nostalgia. I spent some months many years ago, trying to
determine the metabolic pathway of the breakdown of butyl benzene
sulphonate (BBS), a degradation product of detergents, and a detergent in
its own right. I did this by synthesising BBS and growing bacteria on it
in continuous culture, so that anything that survived must be metabolising
BBS. The initial culture in the fermenter came from the sewage works... I
then tried to do ether separation of whatever the bacteria had excreted,
so I could do photospectrometry on it. Of course, the residual BBS made
the ether go into solution in the aqueous fermenter waste. (

Heh, I did a similar thing for central heating oil, using soil scraped
from under a leaking CH oil tank as the starter.


Computing seems so much easier.

I was going to say that at least the subject doesn't die during the
test, but then realised that this was not inaccurate.

On 22 Jan, 09:09, Huge wrote:
On 2009-01-21, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Stuart Noble wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
* * Stuart Noble writes:

Ooh, the nostalgia. I spent some months many years ago, trying to determine the
metabolic pathway of the breakdown of butyl benzene sulphonate (BBS), a
degradation product of detergents, and a detergent in its own right. I did this
by synthesising BBS and growing bacteria on it in continuous culture, so that
anything that survived must be metabolising BBS. The initial culture in the
fermenter came from the sewage works... I then tried to do ether separation of
whatever the bacteria had excreted, so I could do photospectrometry on it.. Of
course, the residual BBS made the ether go into solution in the aqueous
fermenter waste. * *(

Computing seems so much easier.

So how did you extract the excretion products finally? I'd be tempted
to remove the water and volatiles by vacuum distillation, then an
ether extraction on the condensed volatiles (which shouldn't contain
any BBS). Having removed the water, the residue will still have BBS,
but without the water, ether extraction should work.

Did you do chromatographic separation of the components afterwards?

Cheers,

Sid

I spent some months many years ago, trying to determine the
metabolic pathway of the breakdown of butyl benzene sulphonate (BBS),




I often do that when there's nothing much on the telly.


mark

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 22:03:35 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote
(in article ):

Stuart Noble wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The alkali is neither here nor there, but it seems animal fats were the
norm in Roman times. Odd that they didn't try olives.
Too good to waste on washing.

The Greeks use olive oil soap a lot - it's available everywhere there. I
don't suppose they use the best 'Extra Virgin' though - more likely
chemically recovered stuff from already used pressings.

--
Mike Lane
UK North Yorkshire

Mike Lane wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 22:03:35 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote
(in article ):

Stuart Noble wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The alkali is neither here nor there, but it seems animal fats were the
norm in Roman times. Odd that they didn't try olives.
Too good to waste on washing.

The Greeks use olive oil soap a lot - it's available everywhere there. I
don't suppose they use the best 'Extra Virgin' though - more likely
chemically recovered stuff from already used pressings.


Thought that went to Lidl? (Or was that Aldi?) :-)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod wrote:
Mike Lane wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 22:03:35 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote
(in article ):

Stuart Noble wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The alkali is neither here nor there, but it seems animal fats were
the norm in Roman times. Odd that they didn't try olives.
Too good to waste on washing.

The Greeks use olive oil soap a lot - it's available everywhere there.
I don't suppose they use the best 'Extra Virgin' though - more likely
chemically recovered stuff from already used pressings.


Thought that went to Lidl? (Or was that Aldi?) :-)


Feeling mischievous are we? :-)

On 22 Jan, 15:24, Huge wrote:
On 2009-01-22, wrote:



On 22 Jan, 09:09, Huge wrote:
On 2009-01-21, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Stuart Noble wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
* * Stuart Noble writes:

Ooh, the nostalgia. I spent some months many years ago, trying to determine the
metabolic pathway of the breakdown of butyl benzene sulphonate (BBS), a
degradation product of detergents, and a detergent in its own right. I did this
by synthesising BBS and growing bacteria on it in continuous culture, so that
anything that survived must be metabolising BBS. The initial culture in the
fermenter came from the sewage works... I then tried to do ether separation of
whatever the bacteria had excreted, so I could do photospectrometry on it. Of
course, the residual BBS made the ether go into solution in the aqueous
fermenter waste. * *(

Computing seems so much easier.

So how did you extract the excretion products finally?

I didn't. Summer vacation finished & I went back to being an undergraduate,
handing the carboy full of fermenter output and ether back to one of the
"proper" research assistants.

Ahh. I see. I was hoping you'd reposte with a devilishly cunning way
of doing it. I would guess at vacuum distillation + condensation of
the volatiles. That would leave the BBS behind, and so you'd have an
ether extraction of the volatiles ready made. The residue would be
water-free, so I'd guess you could then run a standard extraction on
it. Chromatographic isolation of the components, followed by
photospectometry of each component and confirmation via mass
spectrometry. I suspect these days it's all automated.

Cheers,

Sid


Did you do chromatographic separation of the components afterwards?

That was the intent, yes.