I'm thinking of putting this in for a Victorian house, in conjunction with some
new uPVC windows to seal up the house from the cold North winds.

The attic has access to every room in the house (via vertical channels running
down the sides of the chimney breats) so moving the air around should be easy
enough.

So - where to start? No suppliers seem to be able to provide any decent
information. They usually say "tell us what you want, and we will give you a
quote". I say "tell me what you have, and I will work out my own". In this
economic environment, I don't know why they are all making it so hard for me to
work out what I need.

Anyway - any suggestions on where I can find information on how to plan one of
these things? There are plenty of units on eBay (search for "heat recovery")
starting at £400, but I have no idea if any of them are any good.

Like any DIYer, I just want to be knowledgeable enough to know what I am looking
for, and make the right decisions. I suspect my total costs (for DIY) would come
to around £1500. Would that be reasonable?

What I'm trying to solve is condensation and mould problems in a large Victorian
end-terrace house, while at the same time keep as much heat as I can in the house.

Any tips - direct experience or otherwise - gratefully received.

-- Jason

Jason coughed up some electrons that declared:

So - where to start? No suppliers seem to be able to provide any decent
information. They usually say "tell us what you want, and we will give you
a quote". I say "tell me what you have, and I will work out my own". In
this economic environment, I don't know why they are all making it so hard
for me to work out what I need.

Anyway - any suggestions on where I can find information on how to plan
one of these things? There are plenty of units on eBay (search for "heat
recovery") starting at £400, but I have no idea if any of them are any
good.

I've come across good information, including tech sheets and installation
manuals for some units. Took a fair bit of googling though. I'll see if I
can retrace any of the units I found - but won't be till tomorrow evening.

I do remember noting that efficiency and cost varied wildly, with the
expected relationship. I did also note that single heat recovery extractor
fans seemed to claim quite high efficiencies and are more like 200 quid a
pop, but you need a 6" hole thorugh the wall for those.

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:
Jason coughed up some electrons that declared:

So - where to start? No suppliers seem to be able to provide any decent
information. They usually say "tell us what you want, and we will give you
a quote". I say "tell me what you have, and I will work out my own". In
this economic environment, I don't know why they are all making it so hard
for me to work out what I need.

Anyway - any suggestions on where I can find information on how to plan
one of these things? There are plenty of units on eBay (search for "heat
recovery") starting at £400, but I have no idea if any of them are any
good.

I've come across good information, including tech sheets and installation
manuals for some units. Took a fair bit of googling though. I'll see if I
can retrace any of the units I found - but won't be till tomorrow evening.

I do remember noting that efficiency and cost varied wildly, with the
expected relationship. I did also note that single heat recovery extractor
fans seemed to claim quite high efficiencies and are more like 200 quid a
pop, but you need a 6" hole thorugh the wall for those.

Thanks Tim. I've seen the single-room units, and they do look good. They are
costly and do only cover one room (but that may be all the house needs). Again,
any personal experience on these would be very handy - are the effective? Noisy?
Should I avoid the units with the 12V fans (knowing how quickly 12V computer
fans last, before the bearings get very noisy).

-- Jason

Anyway - any suggestions on where I can find information on how to plan
one of these things? There are plenty of units on eBay (search for "heat
recovery") starting at £400, but I have no idea if any of them are any
good.
I've come across good information, including tech sheets and installation
manuals for some units. Took a fair bit of googling though. I'll see if I
can retrace any of the units I found - but won't be till tomorrow evening..
I do remember noting that efficiency and cost varied wildly, with the
expected relationship. I did also note that single heat recovery extractor
fans seemed to claim quite high efficiencies and are more like 200 quid a
pop, but you need a 6" hole thorugh the wall for those.

Funnily enough, I was mooching around online for these earlier today -
Villavent sell kits, but you're taking £sodding.expensive

Jason wrote:

I'm thinking of putting this in for a Victorian house, in conjunction with some
new uPVC windows to seal up the house from the cold North winds.

The attic has access to every room in the house (via vertical channels running
down the sides of the chimney breats) so moving the air around should be easy
enough.

So - where to start? No suppliers seem to be able to provide any decent
information. They usually say "tell us what you want, and we will give you a
quote". I say "tell me what you have, and I will work out my own". In this
economic environment, I don't know why they are all making it so hard for me to
work out what I need.

Anyway - any suggestions on where I can find information on how to plan one of
these things? There are plenty of units on eBay (search for "heat recovery")
starting at �400, but I have no idea if any of them are any good.

Like any DIYer, I just want to be knowledgeable enough to know what I am looking
for, and make the right decisions. I suspect my total costs (for DIY) would come
to around �1500. Would that be reasonable?

What I'm trying to solve is condensation and mould problems in a large Victorian
end-terrace house, while at the same time keep as much heat as I can in the house.

Any tips - direct experience or otherwise - gratefully received.


If you want to extract damp you'd be better off wth a dehumidifier. A
fraction the price, fraction the run cost, more controllable, and
doesnt throw 20% of your heat away.

However a better aproach is to sort out the cause of the damp first.
http://periodpropertyshop.co.uk/phpB...pic.php?t=6777


NT

"Jason" wrote in message
...
What I'm trying to solve is condensation and mould problems in a large
Victorian
end-terrace house, while at the same time keep as much heat as I can in
the house.

Any tips - direct experience or otherwise - gratefully received.

-- Jason

When I was designing a system for my old mill conversion I found there was
lots of useful inforomation on the vent axia site. You should be able to
get it from here
http://www.vent-axia.com/knowledge/h...calculator.asp
Regards
Bruce

"Jason" wrote in message
...

I'm thinking of putting this in for a Victorian
house, in conjunction with some new uPVC
windows to seal up the house from the cold North winds.

What I'm trying to solve is condensation and mould problems in a large
Victorian
end-terrace house, while at the same time keep as much heat as I can in
the house.

The average British house leaks air like hell. 42% of all heat loss is via
air leakages. Putting one of these in will only vent the place twice,
unless you seal the house up. That includes a sealed loft hatch and all
cable and pipe entries into the loft too. If it has wooden floors then
these need sealing up too.

Forget the MHRV and concentrate on air leaks and insulation. Under the
floors insulate, over 1 foot in the loft. If you can get the insulation up
and air leakages down you could use a MHRV as the heating system.

On exposed end gable try this:
http://www.british-gypsum.com/produc...ine_super.aspx

Celotex and Kingspan do similar if not better products.

Also put proper extract ventilation over hobs and in bathrooms too. These
cause condensation.

Concentrate on the matter in hand and solve at the core.

wrote:

If you want to extract damp you'd be better off wth a dehumidifier. A
fraction the price, fraction the run cost, more controllable, and
doesnt throw 20% of your heat away.

However a better aproach is to sort out the cause of the damp first.
http://periodpropertyshop.co.uk/phpB...pic.php?t=6777

The cause of the damp would be showers, kitchens and people breathing in the
home. My options would be to either swap the damp internal air with less damp
external air (throwing out heat with it - either all the heat, or 20% of the
heat) or dehumidifying the air without exchanging it with outside air.

The former just seems healthier to me - fresh sea air in the house all the time.

-- Jason

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Jason" wrote in message
...

I'm thinking of putting this in for a Victorian
house, in conjunction with some new uPVC
windows to seal up the house from the cold North winds.

What I'm trying to solve is condensation and mould problems in a large
Victorian
end-terrace house, while at the same time keep as much heat as I can
in the house.

The average British house leaks air like hell. 42% of all heat loss is
via air leakages. Putting one of these in will only vent the place
twice, unless you seal the house up. That includes a sealed loft hatch
and all cable and pipe entries into the loft too. If it has wooden
floors then these need sealing up too.

Yes, totally agreed. That is one of the problems that I am trying to solve. When
the wind blows from the North, it comes in around the front window frames and
rotten bedroom windows. When it blows from the South it comes in under the
floor. My intention is to seal all these up so that I have control over the air
flow.

Forget the MHRV and concentrate on air leaks and insulation. Under the
floors insulate, over 1 foot in the loft. If you can get the
insulation up and air leakages down you could use a MHRV as the heating
system.

Sure, but once the house is sealed, that is when the condensation problems get
worse. I'm aiming to tackle both problems at the same time.

On exposed end gable try this:
http://www.british-gypsum.com/produc...ine_super.aspx

Does that go on the inside or the outside? Inside is difficult without covering
or damaging the cornicing, though would be much easier than trying to cover the
outside wall. Covering the outside would not involve any internal decoration
through.

It's worth me looking into though.

Celotex and Kingspan do similar if not better products.

Also put proper extract ventilation over hobs and in bathrooms too.
These cause condensation.

Concentrate on the matter in hand and solve at the core.

Totally agreed. I would just like to plan ahead for the fire I jump into after
leaving the frying pan :-)

-- Jason

Jason writes:

wrote:

If you want to extract damp you'd be better off wth a dehumidifier. A
fraction the price, fraction the run cost, more controllable, and
doesnt throw 20% of your heat away.

However a better aproach is to sort out the cause of the damp first.
http://periodpropertyshop.co.uk/phpB...pic.php?t=6777

The cause of the damp would be showers, kitchens and people breathing in the
home. My options would be to either swap the damp internal air with less damp
external air (throwing out heat with it - either all the heat, or 20% of the
heat) or dehumidifying the air without exchanging it with outside air.

The former just seems healthier to me - fresh sea air in
the house all the time.

The Vent Axia Lo-Watt ones
http://www.vent-axia.com/products/vacas/airminder.asp had
the lowest power consumption last time I looked -- 14W on
low.

--
Jón Fairbairn
http://www.chaos.org.uk/~jf/Stuff-I-dont-want.html (updated 2008-04-26)

BruceB wrote:
"Jason" wrote in message
...
What I'm trying to solve is condensation and mould problems in a large
Victorian
end-terrace house, while at the same time keep as much heat as I can in
the house.

Any tips - direct experience or otherwise - gratefully received.

-- Jason

When I was designing a system for my old mill conversion I found there was
lots of useful inforomation on the vent axia site. You should be able to
get it from here
http://www.vent-axia.com/knowledge/h...calculator.asp
Regards
Bruce

Thank you. That is the single most useful set of guides on the subject yet. Not
sure why I have not come across that before.

-- Jason

Jon Fairbairn wrote:

The Vent Axia Lo-Watt ones
http://www.vent-axia.com/products/vacas/airminder.asp had
the lowest power consumption last time I looked -- 14W on
low.

Ventaxia seem to be *the* suppliers of these things, don't they? At least, they
are the only people who seem to provide a lot of useful background and technical
details to consumers and DIYers.

Other suppliers I have e-mailed have come back with excuses such as "we have
over 70 such products so there is no way we can keep the website up-to-date with
that much information". Well, the news to that company, and many like them, is
that people are making purchasing decisions while the company sleeps.

-- Jason

"Jason" wrote in message
...
wrote:

If you want to extract damp you'd be better off wth a dehumidifier. A
fraction the price, fraction the run cost, more controllable, and
doesnt throw 20% of your heat away.

However a better aproach is to sort out the cause of the damp first.
http://periodpropertyshop.co.uk/phpB...pic.php?t=6777

The cause of the damp would be showers,
kitchens and people breathing in the
home.

As I have said, extract the bathroom and kitchen at source - these are the
prime points that cause condensation. Auto humidity controlled extract fans
can help in bathrooms too. Also eliminate the cold spots where the moist air
meets a cold surface - wall insulation can do this.

Adding more insulation also reduces your fuel bills too and adds to higher
comfort conditions.

My options would be to either swap the
damp internal air with less damp
external air (throwing out heat with it
- either all the heat, or 20% of the
heat) or dehumidifying the air without
exchanging it with outside air.

The former just seems healthier to me -
fresh sea air in the house all the time.

Read my other post on this. Also are you doing a full renovation? Are you
trying to just eliminate the condensation?

If you are doing a full renovation then make the house air tight, heavily
insulate and install the MHRV with maybe an in-line heater battery to heat
the house too. Use the ducting.

Off the shelf MHRV units are generally quite naff - an expensive con most of
the time. All in one box and take home and fir and all is solved. Yep sure
it is. To do it properly you need decent control and use the unit as heat
distribution too, eliminating rads. A high flow combi can do your DHW and
also heat an in-line copper heater battery, or a number of them, say one
behindthe L/room grill, one for the hall, etc. Then individual control for
each room. They could all be in the loft and ductwork to each room(s), if
space permits.

I am not sure what you really are trying to do or solve.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Jason" wrote in message
...
wrote:

If you want to extract damp you'd be better off wth a dehumidifier. A
fraction the price, fraction the run cost, more controllable, and
doesnt throw 20% of your heat away.

However a better aproach is to sort out the cause of the damp first.
http://periodpropertyshop.co.uk/phpB...pic.php?t=6777

The cause of the damp would be showers,
kitchens and people breathing in the
home.

As I have said, extract the bathroom and kitchen at source - these are
the prime points that cause condensation. Auto humidity controlled
extract fans can help in bathrooms too. Also eliminate the cold spots
where the moist air meets a cold surface - wall insulation can do this.

I'm looking at the single-room extractors (with heat recovery) for the bathroom
and kitchen. If I can find one at a decent price (I missed a brand new Ventaxia
unit on eBay a few weeks ago that went for £120) I'll try it out and maybe -
just maybe - that is all I will need (plus more insulation naturally).

Adding more insulation also reduces your fuel bills too and adds to
higher comfort conditions.

Yep, that is being done too. I need to clean out 17 years of rubbish from the
loft to make room for more insulation. Also sealing floorboards and insulating
them from underneath (I have a three-foot gap and can get to all the floors
under the building).

My options would be to either swap the
damp internal air with less damp
external air (throwing out heat with it
- either all the heat, or 20% of the
heat) or dehumidifying the air without
exchanging it with outside air.

The former just seems healthier to me -
fresh sea air in the house all the time.

Read my other post on this. Also are you doing a full renovation? Are
you trying to just eliminate the condensation?

It's not a full renovation, so there are some limits on what I am able to do, at
least in the short term.

If you are doing a full renovation then make the house air tight,
heavily insulate and install the MHRV with maybe an in-line heater
battery to heat the house too. Use the ducting.

Off the shelf MHRV units are generally quite naff - an expensive con
most of the time. All in one box and take home and fir and all is
solved. Yep sure it is. To do it properly you need decent control and
use the unit as heat distribution too, eliminating rads. A high flow
combi can do your DHW and also heat an in-line copper heater battery, or
a number of them, say one behindthe L/room grill, one for the hall, etc.
Then individual control for each room. They could all be in the loft
and ductwork to each room(s), if space permits.

That certainly sounds like the ideal solution, but probably too big a change
seeing as this is not a complete renovation.

I am not sure what you really are trying to do or solve.

Increase the comfort factor, reduce draughts, increase air quality and save energy.

-- Jason

"Jason" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Jason" wrote in message
...

I'm thinking of putting this in for a Victorian
house, in conjunction with some new uPVC
windows to seal up the house from the cold North winds.

What I'm trying to solve is condensation and mould problems in a large
Victorian
end-terrace house, while at the same time keep as much heat as I can
in the house.

The average British house leaks air like hell. 42% of all heat loss is
via air leakages. Putting one of these in will only vent the place
twice, unless you seal the house up. That includes a sealed loft hatch
and all cable and pipe entries into the loft too. If it has wooden
floors then these need sealing up too.

Yes, totally agreed. That is one of the problems that I am trying to
solve. When
the wind blows from the North, it comes in around the front window frames
and
rotten bedroom windows. When it blows from the South it comes in under the
floor. My intention is to seal all these up so that I have control over
the air
flow.

Forget the MHRV and concentrate on air leaks and insulation. Under the
floors insulate, over 1 foot in the loft. If you can get the
insulation up and air leakages down you could use a MHRV as the heating
system.

Sure, but once the house is sealed, that is when the condensation problems
get
worse. I'm aiming to tackle both problems at the same time.

On exposed end gable try this:
http://www.british-gypsum.com/produc...ine_super.aspx

Does that go on the inside or the outside? Inside is difficult without
covering
or damaging the cornicing, though would be much easier than trying to
cover the
outside wall. Covering the outside would not involve any internal
decoration
through.

It's worth me looking into though.

Celotex and Kingspan do similar if not better products.

Also put proper extract ventilation over hobs and in bathrooms too.
These cause condensation.

Concentrate on the matter in hand and solve at the core.

Totally agreed. I would just like to plan ahead for the fire I jump into
after
leaving the frying pan :-)

-- Jason

The floors require insulation under - big job, and sealing. This will
require thin boarding and sealant where floor meets walls. Air will get in
and out everywhere. The loft as I have previously explained.

An end terrace is difficult to externally insulate. A detached house is
easier and foam insulation can be applied and rendered over. External studs
can be fitted with insulation under and between and wooden cladding over -
this transforms the house too and is a wonderful make over. Could double
the price. As an end terrace you have no option but to insulate
internally - big job. If the rooms are big, you could put foam insulation
directly on the walls. and foil lined boarding (vapour layer) over. Then
the cold spots are eliminated and the heating bills go down.

Realistically you will not make the house air-tight with wooden floors, you
can only make it acceptable. Insulate the walls and floors and extract the
moisture at source - kitchen hob and bathroom. Have the bathroom fan come on
automatically while people are in there. An extractor over the shower too.
You may want to install a separate humidistat and have this bring in the
bathroom fans if the level is too high. Same in the kitchen. I had a
neighbour who never once turned on the kitchen extractor and the house also
stunk of stale food most of the time. An auto humidistat would have brought
the extractor on.

"Jason" wrote in message
...

I am not sure what you really are trying to do or solve.

Increase the comfort factor,

Insulation and air-tightness.

reduce draughts,

Air-tightness

increase air quality

You need trickle vents in the new glazing. The air extract fans will pull
air through these. If you have chimney breasts they are also an outside
vent. Best block these up. If the breasts is internal if doesn't need an
air vent in it. If on an external wall you will.

and save energy.

Insulation and a decent heating system with good control.

Do all the above and the condensation will disappear.

I would not install a MHRV system unless a "full well thought out"
renovation is done, where the system is an integrated part of the house:
heat recovery, heating, fresh air.

"Jason" wrote in message
...

Thank you. That is the single most useful set of guides on the subject
yet. Not
sure why I have not come across that before.

-- Jason

A pleasure.
I contacted x3 companies to get quotes: Vent Axia, Villavent and Regavent.
Vent-Axia passed the lead onto ADM Systems and they were the only ones to
come out on the ground to see the difficulties of installing in a large old
mill. I ended up designing and installing my own based on their ideas,
buying an Air Minder and Vent Axia accesories through ADM systems and buying
the pipework through Regavent (I liked their flexible stretchy aluminium
pipes and they kept the discount the same although I did not buy one of
their HRV units). I needed a big unit and I wanted DC motors for economy.

Regards
Bruce

Jason wrote:
wrote:

If you want to extract damp you'd be better off wth a dehumidifier. A
fraction the price, fraction the run cost, more controllable, and
doesnt throw 20% of your heat away.

However a better aproach is to sort out the cause of the damp first.
http://periodpropertyshop.co.uk/phpB...pic.php?t=6777

The cause of the damp would be showers, kitchens and people breathing in the
home. My options would be to either swap the damp internal air with less damp
external air (throwing out heat with it - either all the heat, or 20% of the
heat) or dehumidifying the air without exchanging it with outside air.

If you know that those are the only sources of the problem, then that
sounds right to me

The former just seems healthier to me - fresh sea air in the house all the time.

It is for modern houses, but old places leak like sieves and simply
dont need it.


NT

Doctor Drivel wrote:

An end terrace is difficult to externally insulate.

External studs
can be fitted with insulation under and between and wooden cladding over -
this transforms the house too and is a wonderful make over. Could double
the price.

As an end terrace you have no option but to insulate
internally


NT

wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

An end terrace is difficult to externally insulate.

External studs
can be fitted with insulation under and between and wooden cladding
over -
this transforms the house too and is a wonderful make over. Could double
the price.

As an end terrace you have no option but to insulate
internally

NT

Thank you for your solid contribution.

On Jan 17, 4:29*pm, Jason wrote:
I'm thinking of putting this in for a Victorian house, in conjunction with some
new uPVC windows to seal up the house from the cold North winds.

The attic has access to every room in the house (via vertical channels running
down the sides of the chimney breasts) so moving the air around should be easy
enough.

So - where to start? No suppliers seem to be able to provide any decent
information. They usually say "tell us what you want, and we will give you a
quote". I say "tell me what you have, and I will work out my own". In this
economic environment, I don't know why they are all making it so hard for me to
work out what I need.

Anyway - any suggestions on where I can find information on how to plan one of
these things? There are plenty of units on eBay (search for "heat recovery")
starting at £400, but I have no idea if any of them are any good.

Like any DIYer, I just want to be knowledgeable enough to know what I am looking
for, and make the right decisions. I suspect my total costs (for DIY) would come
to around £1500. Would that be reasonable?

What I'm trying to solve is condensation and mould problems in a large Victorian
end-terrace house, while at the same time keep as much heat as I can in the house.

Any tips - direct experience or otherwise - gratefully received.

-- Jason

Yes. Here called an air (and heat) exchanger. Becoming common and have
been mandatory in highly insulated homes which are in accordance with
R2000 for past ten or fifteen years or more.

For example a relative has just bought a 17 year old house that has an
air exchanger but we have noted it is NOT a heat recovery type. It may
only be an exhaust system but house also has bathroom and kitchen
exhaust fans; so?

AIUI the heat recovery type has several ducts (presumably at least one
on each floor?) to pick and exhaust stale air and that goes 'out'
through one side of the 'Air exchanger' unit. Warming the incoming air
on the other side of the unit Heat recoveries of up to 80% are
claimed, but personally I doubt it and under what conditions? Also a
set of ducts goes to each room or area to introduce the slightly
warmed fresh air.

Will see if I can find some links (probably North American though) and
post them here. Should be well established technology! The maintenance
supervisor of a local school here was installing such items as a
sideline business some ten-twenty years ago!

"terry" wrote in message
...

AIUI the heat recovery type has several ducts (presumably at least one
on each floor?) to pick and exhaust stale air and that goes 'out'
through one side of the 'Air exchanger' unit. Warming the incoming air
on the other side of the unit Heat recoveries of up to 80% are
claimed, but personally I doubt it and under what conditions?


They put the motor in the intake ducts to add more heat, which is heat you
paid for in turning the motor. This skews the "efficiency". Many add a motor
which is too large and generates heat to manipulate figures.

In message , Jason
writes
Tim S wrote:
Jason coughed up some electrons that declared:

So - where to start? No suppliers seem to be able to provide any decent
information. They usually say "tell us what you want, and we will give you
a quote". I say "tell me what you have, and I will work out my own". In
this economic environment, I don't know why they are all making it so hard
for me to work out what I need.

Anyway - any suggestions on where I can find information on how to plan
one of these things? There are plenty of units on eBay (search for "heat
recovery") starting at £400, but I have no idea if any of them are any
good.

I've come across good information, including tech sheets and installation
manuals for some units. Took a fair bit of googling though. I'll see if I
can retrace any of the units I found - but won't be till tomorrow evening.

I do remember noting that efficiency and cost varied wildly, with the
expected relationship. I did also note that single heat recovery extractor
fans seemed to claim quite high efficiencies and are more like 200 quid a
pop, but you need a 6" hole thorugh the wall for those.

Thanks Tim. I've seen the single-room units, and they do look good. They are
costly and do only cover one room (but that may be all the house needs). Again,
any personal experience on these would be very handy - are the
effective? Noisy?
Should I avoid the units with the 12V fans (knowing how quickly 12V computer
fans last, before the bearings get very noisy).

The typical computer fan is crap because they are cheap, it's got
nothing to do with the voltage.

Decnet 12v can be quiet and last for a long time.
--
Chris French

On Jan 18, 12:06*pm, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:
"terry" wrote in message

...

AIUI the heat recovery type has several ducts (presumably at least one
on each floor?) *to pick and exhaust stale air and that goes 'out'
through one side of the 'Air exchanger' unit. Warming the incoming air
on the other side of the unit Heat recoveries of up to 80% are
claimed, but personally I doubt it and under what conditions?


They put the motor in the intake ducts to add more heat, which is heat you
paid for in turning the motor. This skews the "efficiency". Many add a motor
which is too large and generates heat to manipulate figures.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not the few I've seen here. There is one double ended motor in the
unit which for an average 3 bedroom house with semi finished basement
is about the size of smallish 2 drawer file cabinet, hung, on non
vibratory suspension in the basement from the joists of the main
floor. There is one small (probably a max. of one fifth HP) motor
driving both the input and output fan impellers. Let's say 150 watts?
That's a cost of about 10/6 = less than couple of cents per hour,
about $140 to $150 (Roughly 100 UK pounds?) per year? Not really
significant.
The total volume of air exchanged, in the case of my daughter's homes,
both equipped with air/heat exchangers is about 2500 to 3000sq. feet x
8 foot ceiling height = Around 22,000 cu.ft. Not sure how often the
air with say five people living in each house is exchanged. One of
them did slow down the air exchanger finding a draught from a couple
of the ceiling vents. In hat house there are normally four persons
breathing out moisture, cooking, showering etc. The house also has
kitchen and bathroom exhaust fans.
Not sure what the cost would be nowadays but would guess at say $2000
to $4000 installed . (Say 2000 UK pounds?) in a new building. A DIYer
might do it for less into an existing building?

In message , Owain
writes
Jason wrote:
I'm thinking of putting this in for a Victorian house, in conjunction
with some
new uPVC windows

No! Not plastic windows in a Victorian house! Please. You can have
double glazed panels in timber sash windows, and existing timber sash
windows can be renovated and draught-proofed.

My thoughts as well, it ruins the look of the house. (though if it's the
usual vic terrace, the windows on the various houses will look a right
mish mash by now anyway)

One of the other victorian houses near us has been ruined by the co that
did it up.

They put in uPVC windows, the sandblasted (or somesuch )the brickwork,
which now looks like new and stands out like a sore thumb against all
the other houses around here built of the same brick. And the interior
is very modern (ok I don't know what it was like , it may have been all
ripped out previously). But it doesn't feel like it compliments the
style of the house it just clashes.

But they haven't sold it, been on the market at least a year I guess.
--
Chris French

Owain wrote:
Jason wrote:
I'm thinking of putting this in for a Victorian house, in conjunction
with some
new uPVC windows

No! Not plastic windows in a Victorian house! Please. You can have
double glazed panels in timber sash windows, and existing timber sash
windows can be renovated and draught-proofed.

I hear you, but there are costs to think about, plus matching the other houses
in the street is probably more to the point.

Unfortunately the timber sash windows went several owners ago, and the sash
boxes are now just hollow plasterboard. The windows at the moment are horizontal
swing-around types, and rotten as anything. I have tried draught-proofing them
(embedding fire-door strips into routed channels) and that does make a big
difference to the draughts, but I think there is too much rot in the wood to
recover them properly.

The attic has access to every room in the house (via vertical channels
running
down the sides of the chimney breats) so moving the air around should
be easy
enough.

You don't normally need ducts to every room -
just suck from the kitchen and bathroom(s) and blow into lounge and
hall. If you aren't using the fireplaces you could use the chimneys as
ducts (with a liner)

Looking down from the loft, the two main chimney breasts have channels running
down each side, right down to the ground floor (below the floor actually). That
means I have access to every room in the house from the attic, by at least two
points (each side of the chimney breasts). I'm using it for network and TV
cables at the moment, but they are about 9" square, so there is plenty of room
to run further ducts.

-- JJ

chris French wrote:
In message , Owain
writes
Jason wrote:
I'm thinking of putting this in for a Victorian house, in conjunction
with some
new uPVC windows

No! Not plastic windows in a Victorian house! Please. You can have
double glazed panels in timber sash windows, and existing timber sash
windows can be renovated and draught-proofed.

My thoughts as well, it ruins the look of the house. (though if it's the
usual vic terrace, the windows on the various houses will look a right
mish mash by now anyway)

Do you know our street then? ;-)

Just for you lot, I will enquire about wooden windows, but it really all comes
down to price. The three large windows at the front of the house come in at
around £500 for all three from a local supplier (fitted). The frames are a bit
chunky, so I'm looking further afield for some low-profile frames. We'll see.

-- Jason

Well, thank you all for the help, hints and tips. It is clear from your
responses that I absolutely need to fit the leaks first, which *is* going to be
difficult in such an old house.

Leaks - insulation - airflow (in that order)

I've ordered a heat-recovering extractor fan for the bathroom (with built-in
humidistat), so we'll see what difference that makes when it's fitted.

I have a loft-clearing task to do, so I can take advantage of some local (and
nearly expired) grants available for loft insulation. I think Wickes are even in
on the grants, offering their rock wool at half price until February.

Floors to be sealed and insulated. Yeah, not easy. I can get to the underside of
all the floors quite easily, but the joists are not evenly distributed, so I
cannot just cut all the foam or whatever to a single size and push it in.

The front windows to be replaced, and then we'll see whether whole-house
ventilation is needed.

-- Jason

On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:18:59 +0000, Owain wrote:

No! Not plastic windows in a Victorian house! Please.

I'm inclined to agree if just fitting stock jobbies. We've put plastic in
here (17th C farmhouse) principly beacuse of the exposure and extremely
short and unpredictable times that painting can be done. They are damn
sight nicer looking and if better keeping than the old stock top
horizontal vent '70's windows. Our plastic ones are designed to be similar
in appearance to a sash window with 6 panels per sash.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Jason" wrote in message
...
I'm thinking of putting this in for a Victorian house, in conjunction with
some
new uPVC windows to seal up the house from the cold North winds.

The attic has access to every room in the house (via vertical channels
running
down the sides of the chimney breats) so moving the air around should be
easy
enough.

So - where to start? No suppliers seem to be able to provide any decent
information. They usually say "tell us what you want, and we will give you
a
quote". I say "tell me what you have, and I will work out my own". In this
economic environment, I don't know why they are all making it so hard for
me to
work out what I need.

Anyway - any suggestions on where I can find information on how to plan
one of
these things? There are plenty of units on eBay (search for "heat
recovery")
starting at £400, but I have no idea if any of them are any good.

Like any DIYer, I just want to be knowledgeable enough to know what I am
looking
for, and make the right decisions. I suspect my total costs (for DIY)
would come
to around £1500. Would that be reasonable?

What I'm trying to solve is condensation and mould problems in a large
Victorian
end-terrace house, while at the same time keep as much heat as I can in
the house.

Any tips - direct experience or otherwise - gratefully received.

Prices thus.....

http://www.villavent.co.uk/web-kit-offer-1.htm

On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:29:08 +0000, Jason
wrote:

I'm thinking of putting this in for a Victorian house, in conjunction with some
new uPVC windows to seal up the house from the cold North winds.

The attic has access to every room in the house (via vertical channels running
down the sides of the chimney breats) so moving the air around should be easy
enough.

So - where to start? No suppliers seem to be able to provide any decent
information. They usually say "tell us what you want, and we will give you a
quote". I say "tell me what you have, and I will work out my own". In this
economic environment, I don't know why they are all making it so hard for me to
work out what I need.

About 20 years ago you could head off down to Wickes and buy a system
off the shelf. There was a Wickes leaflets telling you all you needed
to know on sizing and system configuration.


--

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:18:59 +0000, Owain wrote:

No! Not plastic windows in a Victorian house! Please.

I'm inclined to agree if just fitting stock jobbies. We've put plastic in
here (17th C farmhouse) principly beacuse of the exposure and extremely
short and unpredictable times that painting can be done. They are damn
sight nicer looking and if better keeping than the old stock top
horizontal vent '70's windows. Our plastic ones are designed to be similar
in appearance to a sash window with 6 panels per sash.

There's a thought - sash windows. There are a couple of local suppliers that do
them. I'll check them out.

-- Jason

Owain wrote:
Jason wrote:
Just for you lot, I will enquire about wooden windows, but it really
all comes
down to price. The three large windows at the front of the house come
in at
around £500 for all three from a local supplier (fitted). The frames
are a bit
chunky, so I'm looking further afield for some low-profile frames.
We'll see.


£500 for plastic windows plus £1000 knocked off the house value

vs

3 x £1000 each for replacement wooden sash windows less £1500 added to
the house value

£1500, with £1000 deferred, or £3000 now, with £1500 cash-back deferred. I'll
investigate.

-- JJ

Owain wrote:
Jason wrote:
Well, thank you all for the help, hints and tips. It is clear from your
responses that I absolutely need to fit the leaks first, which *is*
going to be
difficult in such an old house.
Leaks - insulation - airflow (in that order)

I would disagree. Removing ventilation (albeit inadvertent and unwanted)
in a poorly insulated house is quite likely to increase your
condensation problems.

Which brings us full circle to the original point of my enquiry: replacing
uncontrolled leaks with a controlled heat-recovered forced air flow. The point
is, unless I sort out the uncontrolled leaks, then the forced air is moot.

Insulation first if possible, then as you remove leaks make sure you
have compensating airflow.

If you aren't set on heat recovery you might google passive stack
ventilation. (a function currently performed rather crudely but
effectively by your chimneys).

I am very keen on trying to save energy and money in the long run, without
having to move house.

-- Jason

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:15:53 +0000, Jason wrote:

There's a thought - sash windows. There are a couple of local suppliers
that do them. I'll check them out.

You can get plastic sash windows but we decided against them as the
sliding joints would be tricky to get suffciently storm proof(*). Probably
alright in a less exposed position.

(*) It does regulary blow a real gale up here and sustained winds of 40mph
gusting low 60's don't half drive the rain through the tiniest hole and
when that rain is cominmg down like someone throwing buckets of water at
the windows every couple of seconds you need good seals to keep it out.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:15:53 +0000, Jason wrote:

There's a thought - sash windows. There are a couple of local suppliers
that do them. I'll check them out.

You can get plastic sash windows but we decided against them as the
sliding joints would be tricky to get suffciently storm proof(*). Probably
alright in a less exposed position.

(*) It does regulary blow a real gale up here and sustained winds of 40mph
gusting low 60's don't half drive the rain through the tiniest hole and
when that rain is cominmg down like someone throwing buckets of water at
the windows every couple of seconds you need good seals to keep it out.

Yep, same here. The rain blows horizontally along the walls and windows and
finds every crack and hole it can.

-- JJ

On 19 Jan, 18:42, Jason wrote:
Owain wrote:
Jason wrote:
Just for you lot, I will enquire about wooden windows, but it really
all comes
down to price. The three large windows at the front of the house come
in at
around £500 for all three from a local supplier (fitted). The frames
are a bit
chunky, so I'm looking further afield for some low-profile frames.
We'll see.

£500 for plastic windows plus £1000 knocked off the house value

vs

3 x £1000 each for replacement wooden sash windows less £1500 added to
the house value

£1500, with £1000 deferred, or £3000 now, with £1500 cash-back deferred. I'll
investigate.

-- JJ

Timber sash windows in something better than grown in 2 minutes pine
will give you a more satisfying finish, if you were rebuilding old
ones this is the more comprehensive version of door brush in routed
strips:

http://www.reddiseals.com

Adam

"DICEGEORGE" wrote in message
...
A very interesting and informative thread about old houses heat losses and
windows etc (i just found this through a search and am bumping it up the
list)
On Saturday, January 17, 2009 at 7:29:08 PM UTC, Jason wrote:
I'm thinking of putting this in for a Victorian house, in conjunction with
some
new uPVC windows to seal up the house from the cold North winds.

The attic has access to every room in the house (via vertical channels
running
down the sides of the chimney breats) so moving the air around should be
easy
enough.

So - where to start? No suppliers seem to be able to provide any decent
information. They usually say "tell us what you want, and we will give you
a
quote". I say "tell me what you have, and I will work out my own". In this
economic environment, I don't know why they are all making it so hard for
me to
work out what I need.

Anyway - any suggestions on where I can find information on how to plan
one of
these things? There are plenty of units on eBay (search for "heat
recovery")
starting at £400, but I have no idea if any of them are any good.

Like any DIYer, I just want to be knowledgeable enough to know what I am
looking
for, and make the right decisions. I suspect my total costs (for DIY)
would come
to around £1500. Would that be reasonable?

What I'm trying to solve is condensation and mould problems in a large
Victorian
end-terrace house, while at the same time keep as much heat as I can in
the house.

Any tips - direct experience or otherwise - gratefully received.

I have visited several "eco" and passive houses fitted with this.
Many have been shut down on account of running expenses.
(And being ineffectual).
So, total waste of space. Don't do it.

A very interesting and informative thread about old houses heat losses and windows etc (i just found this through a search and am bumping it up the list)
On Saturday, January 17, 2009 at 7:29:08 PM UTC, Jason wrote:
I'm thinking of putting this in for a Victorian house, in conjunction with some
new uPVC windows to seal up the house from the cold North winds.

The attic has access to every room in the house (via vertical channels running
down the sides of the chimney breats) so moving the air around should be easy
enough.

So - where to start? No suppliers seem to be able to provide any decent
information. They usually say "tell us what you want, and we will give you a
quote". I say "tell me what you have, and I will work out my own". In this
economic environment, I don't know why they are all making it so hard for me to
work out what I need.

Anyway - any suggestions on where I can find information on how to plan one of
these things? There are plenty of units on eBay (search for "heat recovery")
starting at £400, but I have no idea if any of them are any good.

Like any DIYer, I just want to be knowledgeable enough to know what I am looking
for, and make the right decisions. I suspect my total costs (for DIY) would come
to around £1500. Would that be reasonable?

What I'm trying to solve is condensation and mould problems in a large Victorian
end-terrace house, while at the same time keep as much heat as I can in the house.

Any tips - direct experience or otherwise - gratefully received.

-- Jason

Your clock is still ****ed.

"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"DICEGEORGE" wrote in message
...
A very interesting and informative thread about old houses heat losses and
windows etc (i just found this through a search and am bumping it up the
list)
On Saturday, January 17, 2009 at 7:29:08 PM UTC, Jason wrote:
I'm thinking of putting this in for a Victorian house, in conjunction
with some
new uPVC windows to seal up the house from the cold North winds.

The attic has access to every room in the house (via vertical channels
running
down the sides of the chimney breats) so moving the air around should be
easy
enough.

So - where to start? No suppliers seem to be able to provide any decent
information. They usually say "tell us what you want, and we will give
you a
quote". I say "tell me what you have, and I will work out my own". In
this
economic environment, I don't know why they are all making it so hard for
me to
work out what I need.

Anyway - any suggestions on where I can find information on how to plan
one of
these things? There are plenty of units on eBay (search for "heat
recovery")
starting at £400, but I have no idea if any of them are any good.

Like any DIYer, I just want to be knowledgeable enough to know what I am
looking
for, and make the right decisions. I suspect my total costs (for DIY)
would come
to around £1500. Would that be reasonable?

What I'm trying to solve is condensation and mould problems in a large
Victorian
end-terrace house, while at the same time keep as much heat as I can in
the house.

Any tips - direct experience or otherwise - gratefully received.

I have visited several "eco" and passive houses fitted with this.
Many have been shut down on account of running expenses.
(And being ineffectual).
So, total waste of space. Don't do it.