I'm somewhat confused about the phasing out of several types of lamps
and would like some clarification please on what types will stay and
go. Is there a web site that clearly indicates which types will
continue in future.

Our house, like many others I presume, has a wide variety of lamps
from 12v dichroic downlighters through to R50 reflector spots with to
suit Edison screw fittings.

I'm most concerned about the 12v dichroics as we have lots of these
around the house and I had been planning install more of these in a
new loft conversion. Someone said that, just like ordinary
incandescent lamps, these use tungsten filaments and that they will
disappear also.

Can someone assist please?

Vet Tech

In article
,
Vet Tech wrote:
I'm somewhat confused about the phasing out of several types of lamps
and would like some clarification please on what types will stay and
go. Is there a web site that clearly indicates which types will
continue in future.

Our house, like many others I presume, has a wide variety of lamps
from 12v dichroic downlighters through to R50 reflector spots with to
suit Edison screw fittings.

I'm most concerned about the 12v dichroics as we have lots of these
around the house and I had been planning install more of these in a
new loft conversion. Someone said that, just like ordinary
incandescent lamps, these use tungsten filaments and that they will
disappear also.

Can someone assist please?

The only sure thing is some retailers seem to be phasing out standard GLS
pearl lamps. All others appear to be safe - at least for the moment. There
are certainly no decent alternatives to MR16 LV at the moment - and I
doubt there ever will be a CFL alternative. LED *might* in the distant
future. Incidentally, I find it a joke in this energy conservation
hysteria that the sheds have near stopped selling MR16 LV fittings and
concentrated on the much less efficient GU10 mains ones.

I did try a GE Endura CFL to replace an R80 which was quite satisfactory -
but had a very high price. However, it failed very early on - I'm told due
to being run cap up and in an enclosure. So a fat lot of use since this is
how most R80s are used...

--
*A fool and his money are soon partying *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 04:32:49 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Vet Tech
wrote this:-

I'm most concerned about the 12v dichroics as we have lots of these
around the house

Good for making the disc in your electricity meter spin round
rapidly,or the electronic equivalent.

and I had been planning install more of these in a
new loft conversion.

I wouldn't.

Someone said that, just like ordinary
incandescent lamps, these use tungsten filaments and that they will
disappear also.

Eventually I hope they will. However, it is not going to be made
compulsory tomorrow. It may be that as the price of electricity goes
up only those with money to burn will still use them.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 17 Jan, 14:24, David Hansen
wrote:

and I had been planning install more of these in a
new loft conversion.

I wouldn't.

OK, if you wouldn't fit 12v dichroics what would you fit that would
give an equivalent amount & quality of light and would not be slow to
start and become progessively dimmer over an extended period of time?

The loft conversion where I want to install the lights will be used as
an office/study where relatively high brightness is required. I've not
been at all impressed with the low energy offerings that currently
exist.

Vet Tech

In article ,
Vet Tech writes:
On 17 Jan, 14:24, David Hansen
wrote:

and I had been planning install more of these in a
new loft conversion.

I wouldn't.

OK, if you wouldn't fit 12v dichroics what would you fit that would
give an equivalent amount & quality of light and would not be slow to

Almost anything else except mains downlighters will give better
light for the power consumption. Halogen downlighters are the
most inefficient lighting there is (mains ones even more so
than LV ones). They just shout out "dirt cheap" to me, which is
pretty much why people install them.

start and become progessively dimmer over an extended period of time?

All lamps of every type I can think of become progessively dimmer over
their lifetimes. Some die at end of life and some don't die at end of
life, but that doesn't mean you can't replace them at that point.

The loft conversion where I want to install the lights will be used as
an office/study where relatively high brightness is required. I've not
been at all impressed with the low energy offerings that currently
exist.

You should probably install proper office lighting. Domestic
lighting hardly ever gets anywhere near office lighting levels.
Have a look at some office lighting schemes. If you have a low
ceiling (or even just an 8' ceiling), consider indirect lighting
bouncing off a brilliant matt white ceiling. This can be done
with wall and/or floor standing up-lighters. If your office use
demands special lighting (e.g. artwork, or for some users, heavy
VDU use), then say so, and also say what natural lighting you
have there. If you do very small detailed work, then additional
task lighting is likely to be appropriate too.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Vet Tech wrote:

I'm somewhat confused about the phasing out of several types of lamps
and would like some clarification please on what types will stay and
go. Is there a web site that clearly indicates which types will
continue in future.

100W GLS have started to go. Lower wattages next year for pearl finish.
Clear may last a bit longer.

Chapter and verse he

http://ec.europa.eu/energy/efficienc...hold_lamps.pdf

Our house, like many others I presume, has a wide variety of lamps
from 12v dichroic downlighters through to R50 reflector spots with to
suit Edison screw fittings.

I'm most concerned about the 12v dichroics as we have lots of these
around the house and I had been planning install more of these in a
new loft conversion. Someone said that, just like ordinary
incandescent lamps, these use tungsten filaments and that they will
disappear also.

These are likely to be around for some time to come since they are both
more efficient than other incandescent lamps, and there is no effective
replacement for them yet.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 17 Jan, 13:32, Vet Tech wrote:
I'm somewhat confused about the phasing out of several types of lamps
and would like some clarification please on what types will stay and
go. Is there a web site that clearly indicates which types will
continue in future.

Our house, like many others I presume, has a wide variety of lamps
from 12v dichroic downlighters through to R50 reflector spots with to
suit Edison screw fittings.

I'm most concerned about the 12v dichroics as we have lots of these
around the house and I had been planning install more of these in a
new loft conversion. Someone said that, just like ordinary
incandescent lamps, these use tungsten filaments and that they will
disappear also.

Can someone assist please?

Vet Tech

Well, the 'ban' is voluntary at present, but follows suggested
European guidelines. So, while it is not illegal to supply 100 Watt
lamps at present, the major retail outlets have agreed voluntarily not
to supply them. Links are available in this message to the European
guidelines:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....4?dmode=source

Careful reading will tell you the suggested fate of 12 V dichroics. My
reading of the pdf document is that as the lamps you mention are
probably directional, they are not covered by the current suggested
legislation, but will be by legislation to be brought out in 2009.

Regards,

Sid

On 17 Jan 2009 16:53:32 GMT someone who may be
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-

If you do very small detailed work, then additional
task lighting is likely to be appropriate too.

I agree with everything you say, but would add two more things:

1) in an office/study the start time is not that important, so I
would include some types of lamp which do take a while to start up
in the list to be considered.

2) I think that in any office/study task lighting will be highly
desirable. This has the advantage of allowing a lower general
lighting level.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Vet Tech writes:

I'm somewhat confused about the phasing out of several types of
lamps and would like some clarification please on what types will
stay and go. Is there a web site that clearly indicates which types
will continue in future.

Sid posted in this newsgroup a reference to
URL:http://ec.europa.eu/energy/efficiency/ecodesign/doc/committee/2008_12_08_technical_briefing_household_lamps.pdf
shortly after it was published. Many of the deadlines therein have
yet to be formally proposed or adopted, but the document does at least
outline the plan as it currently stands.

--
Mark

"Mark Williams" ] wrote in message
. ..
Vet Tech writes:

I'm somewhat confused about the phasing out of several types of
lamps and would like some clarification please on what types will
stay and go. Is there a web site that clearly indicates which types
will continue in future.

Sid posted in this newsgroup a reference to
URL:http://ec.europa.eu/energy/efficiency/ecodesign/doc/committee/2008_12_08_technical_briefing_household_lamps.pdf
shortly after it was published. Many of the deadlines therein have
yet to be formally proposed or adopted, but the document does at least
outline the plan as it currently stands.

--
Mark

Interesting that Traffic Lights are excluded - yet close to my house are
some traffic lights controlling a narrow bridge which are LED Arrays. The
seemed to have teething problems getting the brightness balanced on all 3
colours - but now they seem fine.

On 17 Jan, 16:53, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * Vet Tech writes:

On 17 Jan, 14:24, David Hansen
wrote:

and I had been planning install more of these in a
new loft conversion.

I wouldn't.

OK, if you wouldn't fit 12v dichroics what would you fit that would
give an equivalent amount & quality of light and would not be slow to

Almost anything else except mains downlighters will give better
light for the power consumption.
Halogen downlighters are the
most inefficient lighting there is

Define efficiency really. LV MR 16s were introduced as a replacement
fror crown silvered and PAR38s in retail lighting. When they first
appeared they were expensive and unusual in domestic settings. At the
time they were an energy efficient replacement for 150W 240V PAR38 a
50W 12V MR16 puts same amount of light on target.

(mains ones even more so
than LV ones). They just shout out "dirt cheap" to me, which is
pretty much why people install them.

GU10 some how took hold presumably because people thought they were
easier/cheaper to install. None of them trafo thingys....Connecting LV
lamps to line voltage has unfortunate effects.

Pressed metal downlighter rings make the cheapest easiest way for
builder to populate a ceiling with lights, similar cost to planting
pendant sets accross the ceiling., GU10 short life span aint the
developers problem.

LV MR16 is a very efficient way of delivering light in a directional
manner, wether dircetional lights are suitable as main illumination in
a domestic setting is differnt thing entirely,not related to
efficeincy.

Lighting is like heating, if you want it bright its an energy
intensive activity, Sun delivers about 1.2 kW m^2 of light, coming
anywhere close is an energy intensive use, either that or go back to
oil lamp levels of illumination.

start and become progessively dimmer over an extended period of time?

All lamps of every type I can think of become progessively dimmer over
their lifetimes. Some die at end of life and some don't die at end of
life, but that doesn't mean you can't replace them at that point.

Its having realiable data on lumen maintenance knowing when your just
burning money with worn out tubes, Mr Hansen with his vintage CFLs for
instance, that and convincing people that it is really past its useful
life even though it still lights up.

The loft conversion where I want to install the lights will be used as
an office/study where relatively high brightness is required. I've not
been at all impressed with the low energy offerings that currently
exist.

You should probably install proper office lighting. Domestic
lighting hardly ever gets anywhere near office lighting levels.
Have a look at some office lighting schemes. If you have a low
ceiling (or even just an 8' ceiling), consider indirect lighting
bouncing off a brilliant matt white ceiling. This can be done
with wall and/or floor standing up-lighters.

T8 or T5 concealed into coffers illuminating towards apex sounds
possible, you may not want very high light levels in a small space
though. Heat generation on top of computers etc is also worth
considering.

If your office use
demands special lighting (e.g. artwork, or for some users, heavy
VDU use), then say so, and also say what natural lighting you
have there. If you do very small detailed work, then additional
task lighting is likely to be appropriate too.

Natural light is always going to be the winner, cheap to run, but
sunniest day may be the ones you have to pull the blinds.

Background light level to taste and add task specific lighting to
areas that need it, with LV halogen. Perhaps LEDs let into shelves and
kickplates.

Adam

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article
,
Adam Aglionby wrote:
Define efficiency really. LV MR 16s were introduced as a replacement
fror crown silvered and PAR38s in retail lighting. When they first
appeared they were expensive and unusual in domestic settings. At the
time they were an energy efficient replacement for 150W 240V PAR38 a
50W 12V MR16 puts same amount of light on target.

That's misleading - unless you're just measuring light output in the
centre of the spot. Which is down to optics rather than efficiency.

--
*Caution: I drive like you do.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 19 Jan, 09:31, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
* *Adam Aglionby wrote:

Define efficiency really. LV MR 16s were introduced as a replacement
fror crown silvered and PAR38s in retail lighting. When they first
appeared they were expensive and unusual in domestic settings. At the
time they were an energy efficient replacement for 150W 240V PAR38 a
50W 12V MR16 puts same amount of light on target.

That's misleading - unless you're just measuring light output in the
centre of the spot. Which is down to optics rather than efficiency.

--
*Caution: *I drive like you do.

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Specifically light on target,its not misleading until the marketing
bods get their hands on it ;-)

Optics , be it a GLS in a shade or discharge lamp at the back of long
train of optics in a projector , is part of what defines real world
efficiency. Figures like lumens per watt are actually fairly abstract
and tell you nothing about how a lamp will perform in the real world.
Missed out the badly spelled bit where I said

"wether dircetional lights are suitable as main illumination in
a domestic setting is differnt thing entirely"

Apart from Halogena style high wattage halogen lamps, which are a much
better replacement for 100W incans than CFLs in living spaces, there
is also a range of line voltage GLS style halogens, fully dimmable,
higher colour temp than incan and considerably more efficient:

http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/cat...energy-savers/

Unfortunately not 5 for 50p down local supermarket.

Adam

In article ,
Adam Aglionby writes:
On 17 Jan, 16:53, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * Vet Tech writes:
OK, if you wouldn't fit 12v dichroics what would you fit that would
give an equivalent amount & quality of light and would not be slow to

Almost anything else except mains downlighters will give better
light for the power consumption.
Halogen downlighters are the
most inefficient lighting there is
Define efficiency really. LV MR 16s were introduced as a replacement

Providing general lighting in a room by pointing spotlamps at
the floor is what's horribly inefficient. There's nothing much
wrong with the MR16's themselves when correctly used. It's the
completely incorrect use of spotlamps for general lighting,
combined with relying on reflecting off the floor. They're
only used because they're so cheap to buy (not to run).

You commonly find 500-1000W of these in some kitchens, which
are achieving less general lighting and light where you need
it than a 100W bulb hanging in the middle of the room would do.

Bathrooms need good lighting illuminating objects from all
directions. Every time I end up in a hotel room with those
blasted halogen downlighters, trying to shave with my face
in a complete shodow no matter how I position it, I curse
the bloody things.

Offices need good general lighting to encourage you to accomodate
your focus at various different distances, and to keep you
awake (as though it's daytime). Home lighting levels are more
atuned for evening use, where that's not so important. I also
aim for glare-free lighting, which is pretty impossible with
halogen downlighters (the more flood angle lamps you use to try
spreading the light, the more glare you get).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"John" writes:

[Phasing out of non-clear non-reflector incandescent lamps in EU]

Interesting that Traffic Lights are excluded - yet close to my house
are some traffic lights controlling a narrow bridge which are LED
Arrays. The seemed to have teething problems getting the brightness
balanced on all 3 colours - but now they seem fine.

It's probably just a case of political expedience. If traffic lights
weren't exempt then potentially every set of lights would have to be
completely replaced within three lifetimes of the currently installed
lamps in the absence of a replacement lamp.

The types of traffic lights which take incandescent lamps have
coloured filter lenses. I imagine that the colour of the lenses has
never been very precisely controlled. Maybe a drop-in LED replacement
(or three) would not meet the new energy rating requirement behind a
coloured lens?

--
Mark

On 21 Jan, 23:30, Mark Williams ] wrote:
"John" writes:
[Phasing out of non-clear non-reflector incandescent lamps in EU]

Interesting that Traffic Lights are excluded - yet close to my house
are some traffic lights controlling a narrow bridge which are LED
Arrays. The seemed to have teething problems getting the brightness
balanced on all 3 colours - but now they seem fine.

It's probably just a case of political expedience. *If traffic lights
weren't exempt then potentially every set of lights would have to be
completely replaced within three lifetimes of the currently installed
lamps in the absence of a replacement lamp.

The types of traffic lights which take incandescent lamps have
coloured filter lenses. *I imagine that the colour of the lenses has
never been very precisely controlled.

They are within a tightly defined spec, LED green is actually outside
the original spec.

*Maybe a drop-in LED replacement
(or three) would not meet the new energy rating requirement behind a
coloured lens?

LED dosent need to behind a coloured lens and the potential power and
maintenance savings are worth several towns worth of totally CFL
burning households.
Reliable LED traffic light arrays are not low cost items though and
budget probably straight from council tax payer.Need to get re-elected
before savings begin to pay off.

Adam

--
Mark

Adam Aglionby writes:

It's probably just a case of political expedience. If traffic
lights weren't exempt then potentially every set of lights would
have to be completely replaced within three lifetimes of the
currently installed lamps in the absence of a replacement lamp.

The types of traffic lights which take incandescent lamps have
coloured filter lenses. I imagine that the colour of the lenses has
never been very precisely controlled.

They are within a tightly defined spec, LED green is actually outside
the original spec.

Interesting. Less blue?

Maybe a drop-in LED replacement (or three) would not meet the
new energy rating requirement behind a coloured lens?

LED dosent need to behind a coloured lens

Indeed. But it will almost certainly cost more to modify the existing
units to take hypothetical drop-in LED replacements and then install
the efficient LED replacements than it would to just manufacture
native LED units. The only advantage of the former path is that it
defers the replacement of the whole units for their half-life (on
average). The existing incandescent lamps would still come to the end
of their lives in a relatively short period of time and leave highway
departments having to do one or the other were there no exemption.

and the potential power and maintenance savings are worth several
towns worth of totally CFL burning households.

I'm not sure what point you are making here.

Reliable LED traffic light arrays are not low cost items though and
budget probably straight from council tax payer.Need to get
re-elected before savings begin to pay off.

Political expedience, as previously suggested. The only new
installation of traffic lights I've noticed in the past six months is
of the incandescent type.

--
Mark

Mark Williams wrote:
Adam Aglionby writes:

It's probably just a case of political expedience. If traffic
lights weren't exempt then potentially every set of lights would
have to be completely replaced within three lifetimes of the
currently installed lamps in the absence of a replacement lamp.

The types of traffic lights which take incandescent lamps have
coloured filter lenses. I imagine that the colour of the lenses has
never been very precisely controlled.
They are within a tightly defined spec, LED green is actually outside
the original spec.

Interesting. Less blue?

Maybe a drop-in LED replacement (or three) would not meet the
new energy rating requirement behind a coloured lens?
LED dosent need to behind a coloured lens

Indeed. But it will almost certainly cost more to modify the existing
units to take hypothetical drop-in LED replacements and then install
the efficient LED replacements than it would to just manufacture
native LED units. The only advantage of the former path is that it
defers the replacement of the whole units for their half-life (on
average). The existing incandescent lamps would still come to the end
of their lives in a relatively short period of time and leave highway
departments having to do one or the other were there no exemption.

and the potential power and maintenance savings are worth several
towns worth of totally CFL burning households.

I'm not sure what point you are making here.

Reliable LED traffic light arrays are not low cost items though and
budget probably straight from council tax payer.Need to get
re-elected before savings begin to pay off.

Political expedience, as previously suggested. The only new
installation of traffic lights I've noticed in the past six months is
of the incandescent type.

All recent new traffic lights in this area have been LEDs. (So far as I
have seen them.)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On 29 Jan, 03:52, Mark Williams ] wrote:
Adam Aglionby writes:
It's probably just a case of political expedience. *If traffic
lights weren't exempt then potentially every set of lights would
have to be completely replaced within three lifetimes of the
currently installed lamps in the absence of a replacement lamp.

The types of traffic lights which take incandescent lamps have
coloured filter lenses. *I imagine that the colour of the lenses has
never been very precisely controlled.

They are within a tightly defined spec, LED green is actually outside
the original spec.

Interesting. *Less blue?

Not my field, but as I understand it , yes. Green LED is centred
around 525nm , bright emerald green, traffic light green should be
more cyan, LED is available in cyan but manufacture yields are lower
so take longer /more expense to obtain quantity of matched colour.


Maybe a drop-in LED replacement (or three) would not meet the
new energy rating requirement behind a coloured lens?

LED dosent need to behind a coloured lens

Indeed. *But it will almost certainly cost more to modify the existing
units to take hypothetical drop-in LED replacements and then install
the efficient LED replacements than it would to just manufacture
native LED units. *The only advantage of the former path is that it
defers the replacement of the whole units for their half-life (on
average). *The existing incandescent lamps would still come to the end
of their lives in a relatively short period of time and leave highway
departments having to do one or the other were there no exemption.

Last time looked into this, couple of years ago, there was a number of
retrofit units designed to replace incan reflector/lens housings in
existing lights. But guess there is a whole variety of legacy lights
fitted across a typical councils estate.


and the potential power and maintenance savings are worth several
towns worth of totally CFL burning households.

I'm not sure what point you are making here.

That money spent on marketing and legislating use of CFLs could be
better employed on projects with measurable payback, like LED traffic
lights ;-)


Reliable LED traffic light arrays are not low cost items though and
budget probably straight from council tax payer.Need to get
re-elected before savings begin to pay off.

Political expedience, as previously suggested. *The only new
installation of traffic lights I've noticed in the past six months is
of the incandescent type.

Here, Edinburgh, most new installations, and with car hating council
there is an awful lot of new lights appearing, are almost exclusively
LED. Say almost because have seen a couple of newly fitted incan
units, can only presume they are old stock from stores getting used
up. False economy. Not a fan of traffic lights everywhere but they are
an application where LED is superior in every respect to the incan it
replaces.

Adam



--
Mark

"Adam Aglionby" wrote in message
...
On 29 Jan, 03:52, Mark Williams ] wrote:
Adam Aglionby writes:
It's probably just a case of political expedience. If traffic
lights weren't exempt then potentially every set of lights would
have to be completely replaced within three lifetimes of the
currently installed lamps in the absence of a replacement lamp.

The types of traffic lights which take incandescent lamps have
coloured filter lenses. I imagine that the colour of the lenses has
never been very precisely controlled.

They are within a tightly defined spec, LED green is actually outside
the original spec.

Interesting. Less blue?

Not my field, but as I understand it , yes. Green LED is centred
around 525nm , bright emerald green, traffic light green should be
more cyan, LED is available in cyan but manufacture yields are lower
so take longer /more expense to obtain quantity of matched colour.


Maybe a drop-in LED replacement (or three) would not meet the
new energy rating requirement behind a coloured lens?

LED dosent need to behind a coloured lens

Indeed. But it will almost certainly cost more to modify the existing
units to take hypothetical drop-in LED replacements and then install
the efficient LED replacements than it would to just manufacture
native LED units. The only advantage of the former path is that it
defers the replacement of the whole units for their half-life (on
average). The existing incandescent lamps would still come to the end
of their lives in a relatively short period of time and leave highway
departments having to do one or the other were there no exemption.

Last time looked into this, couple of years ago, there was a number of
retrofit units designed to replace incan reflector/lens housings in
existing lights. But guess there is a whole variety of legacy lights
fitted across a typical councils estate.


and the potential power and maintenance savings are worth several
towns worth of totally CFL burning households.

I'm not sure what point you are making here.

That money spent on marketing and legislating use of CFLs could be
better employed on projects with measurable payback, like LED traffic
lights ;-)


Reliable LED traffic light arrays are not low cost items though and
budget probably straight from council tax payer.Need to get
re-elected before savings begin to pay off.

Political expedience, as previously suggested. The only new
installation of traffic lights I've noticed in the past six months is
of the incandescent type.

Here, Edinburgh, most new installations, and with car hating council
there is an awful lot of new lights appearing, are almost exclusively
LED. Say almost because have seen a couple of newly fitted incan
units, can only presume they are old stock from stores getting used
up. False economy. Not a fan of traffic lights everywhere but they are
an application where LED is superior in every respect to the incan it
replaces.

Adam



--
Mark


I have only seen one set in the city where I live and they have been in situ
for about 4 / 5 years controlling a narrow bridge.

I can't understand why there are not more of them - perhaps they are outside
the proper spec.

In article
,
Adam Aglionby wrote:
Not my field, but as I understand it , yes. Green LED is centred
around 525nm , bright emerald green, traffic light green should be
more cyan, LED is available in cyan but manufacture yields are lower
so take longer /more expense to obtain quantity of matched colour.

Wonder if it's to do with red/green colour blindness which is so common?

--
*Could it be that "I do " is the longest sentence? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Rod wrote:

Political expedience, as previously suggested. The only new
installation of traffic lights I've noticed in the past six months is
of the incandescent type.

All recent new traffic lights in this area have been LEDs. (So far as I
have seen them.)


Same here. Not only that, they appear to be being actively replaced with LED
ones around Canterbury. Wincheap/A2 junction being the most recent (and that
has a *lot* of lights!).

The whole "head" of the traffic light is replaced - not just the bulbs.

Darren

dmc wrote:
In article ,
Rod wrote:

Political expedience, as previously suggested. The only new
installation of traffic lights I've noticed in the past six months is
of the incandescent type.

All recent new traffic lights in this area have been LEDs. (So far as I
have seen them.)


Same here. Not only that, they appear to be being actively replaced with LED
ones around Canterbury. Wincheap/A2 junction being the most recent (and that
has a *lot* of lights!).

The whole "head" of the traffic light is replaced - not just the bulbs.

Darren


It is a shame that the rise in LEDs has not been accompanied by a
re-appraisal of other aspects of the design. A few suggestions:

o Red lights to be octagonal in line with Stop signs.
o All multi-way junctions to have arrows for all directions controlled
on the green phase.
o Miniature repeaters at low level (as in France). Particularly
desirable as so many new lights have just the one set, high and right on
the junction - often impossible to see from a normal seated position at
head of queue.
o Something similar to the flashing amber used in France for part-time
lights.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Adam Aglionby wrote:
Not my field, but as I understand it , yes. Green LED is centred
around 525nm , bright emerald green, traffic light green should be
more cyan, LED is available in cyan but manufacture yields are lower
so take longer /more expense to obtain quantity of matched colour.

Wonder if it's to do with red/green colour blindness which is so common?


You can drive in the UK with full red-green blindness by using position.

I saw a failed LED "lamp" in Chertsey for a while. Looked like a London
Transport sign for months...

Andy

"Rod" wrote in message
...
dmc wrote:
In article ,
Rod wrote:

Political expedience, as previously suggested. The only new
installation of traffic lights I've noticed in the past six months is
of the incandescent type.

All recent new traffic lights in this area have been LEDs. (So far as I
have seen them.)


Same here. Not only that, they appear to be being actively replaced with
LED
ones around Canterbury. Wincheap/A2 junction being the most recent (and
that
has a *lot* of lights!).

The whole "head" of the traffic light is replaced - not just the bulbs.

Darren


It is a shame that the rise in LEDs has not been accompanied by a
re-appraisal of other aspects of the design. A few suggestions:

o Red lights to be octagonal in line with Stop signs.
o All multi-way junctions to have arrows for all directions controlled on
the green phase.

Why bother most drivers don't understand what the arrows mean.
They assume you can go but it means you can go if its clear.
Some prat hit me 30 years ago as the lights were on green for me as I
emerged from a one way street while the two green arrows were on for his
side. Stupid idiot thought it meant he could just go whatever was coming.

o Miniature repeaters at low level (as in France). Particularly desirable
as so many new lights have just the one set, high and right on the
junction - often impossible to see from a normal seated position at head
of queue.

Driver error, try stopping so you can see them!

o Something similar to the flashing amber used in France for part-time
lights.

In article ,
Rod writes:
It is a shame that the rise in LEDs has not been accompanied by a
re-appraisal of other aspects of the design. A few suggestions:

o Red lights to be octagonal in line with Stop signs.

They used to have STOP written across them, although it
was probably too small for a significant part of the
population to read.

o All multi-way junctions to have arrows for all directions controlled
on the green phase.

I agree here. I'm used to our system and it's difficult to
see its faults when you are, but I can see why it's a
nightmere for visitors. The US system is very much clearer
for everyone.

o Miniature repeaters at low level (as in France). Particularly
desirable as so many new lights have just the one set, high and right on
the junction - often impossible to see from a normal seated position at
head of queue.

Agree here, combined with stupid box junction boundaries,
and traffic light sequencing that creates a deadlock which
results in one car getting through every 4 complete light
sequence cycles.

o Something similar to the flashing amber used in France for part-time
lights.

I agree, or just turn lights off except when really needed.

We're in the process of removing the one place we have it,
pelican crossings. (Puffin crossings don't have it because
they know when pedestrians have finished crossing the road,
and just use standard traffic light sequence.)

o Traffic lights which no longer dim down to be glare-free
at night. This used to be absolutely standard years ago
when I had a vague collaboration with traffic light design
group at work. Recently, I started seeing lights where I
assumed the photocell had died, but this is becoming so
common that I assume local authorities have decided to
economise it out. When combined with switching off the
streetlamps so you're driving completely on night vision,
the glare from traffic lights on full power wrecks your
night vision for some distance down the road including
crossing the junction, which is really silly. (I've only
come across one case of street lamps turned off combined
with non-dimming traffic lights.)

o Increasingly poor junction design.
I always assumed road junctions were designed by experts in
the field. Over the last ~10 years, I've seen an increasing
number of very poor designs. There's one where two streams of
traffic on a green quite reasonably assume they have exclusive
rights through a junction, when they don't (and I've seen a crash
almost certainly as a result), and another where a green at the
entry to a junction is quite reasonably taken to mean you have
exclusive rights to proceed across, where it's actually only
a pedestrian crossing and the traffic crossing your path is
uncontrolled (and unsurprisingly I've seen an accident there
too).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Rod writes:
It is a shame that the rise in LEDs has not been accompanied by a
re-appraisal of other aspects of the design. A few suggestions:

o Red lights to be octagonal in line with Stop signs.

They used to have STOP written across them, although it
was probably too small for a significant part of the
population to read.

o All multi-way junctions to have arrows for all directions controlled
on the green phase.

I agree here. I'm used to our system and it's difficult to
see its faults when you are, but I can see why it's a
nightmere for visitors. The US system is very much clearer
for everyone.

o Miniature repeaters at low level (as in France). Particularly
desirable as so many new lights have just the one set, high and right on
the junction - often impossible to see from a normal seated position at
head of queue.

Agree here, combined with stupid box junction boundaries,
and traffic light sequencing that creates a deadlock which
results in one car getting through every 4 complete light
sequence cycles.

o Something similar to the flashing amber used in France for part-time
lights.

I agree, or just turn lights off except when really needed.

We're in the process of removing the one place we have it,
pelican crossings. (Puffin crossings don't have it because
they know when pedestrians have finished crossing the road,
and just use standard traffic light sequence.)

o Traffic lights which no longer dim down to be glare-free
at night. This used to be absolutely standard years ago
when I had a vague collaboration with traffic light design
group at work. Recently, I started seeing lights where I
assumed the photocell had died, but this is becoming so
common that I assume local authorities have decided to
economise it out. When combined with switching off the
streetlamps so you're driving completely on night vision,
the glare from traffic lights on full power wrecks your
night vision for some distance down the road including
crossing the junction, which is really silly. (I've only
come across one case of street lamps turned off combined
with non-dimming traffic lights.)

o Increasingly poor junction design.
I always assumed road junctions were designed by experts in
the field. Over the last ~10 years, I've seen an increasing
number of very poor designs. There's one where two streams of
traffic on a green quite reasonably assume they have exclusive
rights through a junction, when they don't (and I've seen a crash
almost certainly as a result), and another where a green at the
entry to a junction is quite reasonably taken to mean you have
exclusive rights to proceed across, where it's actually only
a pedestrian crossing and the traffic crossing your path is
uncontrolled (and unsurprisingly I've seen an accident there
too).


So much to agree with you there.

A junction near here (link below - but it has changed since this
map/photo) - going from town towards London (L to R on map), you get to
a junction with lights. There are two lanes - straight ahead (and a
trickle of left-turners) and straight ahead plus lots of right-turners.

So if I get to the junction and wish to turn right (to Wickes - keeps it
on a d-i-y theme), I get in the right-hand lane and stop (assuming red).
When it goes green, I move a few metres and have to stop - there are
three lanes facing me. Two (straight ahead for them) are on green - and
a third (their turn right) might go green. I *never* know when they are
on red. I just have to wait until either a) the oncoming traffic stops
OR b) there is a sufficient large gap in the oncoming traffic.

How do I ever know when I am safe?

http://preview.tinyurl.com/bdee79

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

dennis@home wrote:

Driver error, try stopping so you can see them!

I have learned by experience to look for the induction loop in the
tarmac and stop on that. Or they may never change.

Seeing the light is secondary, albeit not much of a problem for me as my
roof is glass.

Andy

"Rod" wrote in message
...
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Rod writes:
It is a shame that the rise in LEDs has not been accompanied by a
re-appraisal of other aspects of the design. A few suggestions:

o Red lights to be octagonal in line with Stop signs.

They used to have STOP written across them, although it
was probably too small for a significant part of the
population to read.

o All multi-way junctions to have arrows for all directions controlled
on the green phase.

I agree here. I'm used to our system and it's difficult to
see its faults when you are, but I can see why it's a
nightmere for visitors. The US system is very much clearer
for everyone.

o Miniature repeaters at low level (as in France). Particularly
desirable as so many new lights have just the one set, high and right on
the junction - often impossible to see from a normal seated position at
head of queue.

8
Repeaters would get vandalised in days.

I get annoyed by the lack of consistency over whether there is a repeater
light on the far side of the junction. Some really need one - others seem to
have loads of them

John wrote:
"Rod" wrote in message
...
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Rod writes:
It is a shame that the rise in LEDs has not been accompanied by a
re-appraisal of other aspects of the design. A few suggestions:

o Red lights to be octagonal in line with Stop signs.
They used to have STOP written across them, although it
was probably too small for a significant part of the
population to read.

o All multi-way junctions to have arrows for all directions controlled
on the green phase.
I agree here. I'm used to our system and it's difficult to
see its faults when you are, but I can see why it's a
nightmere for visitors. The US system is very much clearer
for everyone.

o Miniature repeaters at low level (as in France). Particularly
desirable as so many new lights have just the one set, high and right on
the junction - often impossible to see from a normal seated position at
head of queue.
8
Repeaters would get vandalised in days.

I get annoyed by the lack of consistency over whether there is a repeater
light on the far side of the junction. Some really need one - others seem to
have loads of them


Agreed. It seems to me (thinking about the lights I regularly see), the
more recent ones (which are all LED) seem to have few or no
across-the-junction repeaters. Wondered if the claimed/purported life of
the LEDs is being used as an excuse/reason not to install repeaters?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Andy Champ wrote:
dennis@home wrote:

Driver error, try stopping so you can see them!

I have learned by experience to look for the induction loop in the
tarmac and stop on that. Or they may never change.

Seeing the light is secondary, albeit not much of a problem for me as my
roof is glass.

Andy

I am long in the body and do not have a glass roof! Yesterday, light
changed just as I was approaching a junction, managed to stop safely
just before the 'cyclists' rest' zone, but simply could not see 'my'
lights. All I could go by was a faint reddish glow (which would not have
been visible in bright sunlight).

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

The message
from (Andrew Gabriel) contains these words:


I agree here. I'm used to our system and it's difficult to
see its faults when you are, but I can see why it's a
nightmere for visitors. The US system is very much clearer
for everyone.

What? Right turn on red lights in SOME but not all jurisdictions?
Traffic lights slung from the branches of trees etc. etc.



I agree, or just turn lights off except when really needed.

There are many places where there are part time traffic lights in this
country already.

Rod wrote:

Agreed. It seems to me (thinking about the lights I regularly see), the
more recent ones (which are all LED) seem to have few or no
across-the-junction repeaters. Wondered if the claimed/purported life of
the LEDs is being used as an excuse/reason not to install repeaters?

Possibly. Each lamp being an array of LED's is also probably significant,
even if a few of the LED's fail there will still be some light showing.

--
Mike Clarke

In article ,
John wrote:
o Miniature repeaters at low level (as in France). Particularly
desirable as so many new lights have just the one set, high and
right on the junction - often impossible to see from a normal
seated position at head of queue.

8
Repeaters would get vandalised in days.

Indeed. Turning round traffic lights seems to be a pastime here.

I get annoyed by the lack of consistency over whether there is a
repeater light on the far side of the junction. Some really need one -
others seem to have loads of them

Yup. Especially a left filter.

--
*Forget the Joneses, I keep us up with the Simpsons.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Appin writes:
The message
from (Andrew Gabriel) contains these words:


I agree here. I'm used to our system and it's difficult to
see its faults when you are, but I can see why it's a
nightmere for visitors. The US system is very much clearer
for everyone.

What? Right turn on red lights in SOME but not all jurisdictions?

Yes, that's an issue. When I'm not sure, I look for the
"No Turn on Red" sign, meaning I can turn on red except
at this junction, or until someone behind honks. Have to
be careful around Washington DC and Maryland, as the rule
is different and you need to know which side you're on.
The area I visit most frequently, California, does allow
right turn on red lights, and it seems to make a lot of
sense.

However, I'm really talking about the clarity of the
signalling, rather than specific state regulations.

Traffic lights slung from the branches of trees etc. etc.

Not seen that, but some areas hang them on cables across
the road, and after a good gale, they're all pointing in
the wrong directions, upside down, etc. In California, I
only recall seeing them on steel outreach arms, where
this doesn't happen (but some of the outreach arms are
incredibly long).

I agree, or just turn lights off except when really needed.

There are many places where there are part time traffic lights in this
country already.

Very many more need switching to peak times only.
There's a large roundabout over a motorway junction that
I do quite often late at night. That's 3 to 4 sets of
lights to go through and it can take over 5 minutes, when
there's not another vehicle in sight.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Appin writes:
What? Right turn on red lights in SOME but not all jurisdictions?

Yes, that's an issue. When I'm not sure, I look for the
"No Turn on Red" sign, meaning I can turn on red except
at this junction, or until someone behind honks. Have to
be careful around Washington DC and Maryland, as the rule
is different and you need to know which side you're on.
The area I visit most frequently, California, does allow
right turn on red lights, and it seems to make a lot of
sense.

What's always got me is when I ask the hire car people if you can turn
right on red (or even "hang a righ'") they never seem to know.

Andy

"Andy Champ" wrote in message
. uk...
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Appin writes:
What? Right turn on red lights in SOME but not all jurisdictions?

Yes, that's an issue. When I'm not sure, I look for the
"No Turn on Red" sign, meaning I can turn on red except
at this junction, or until someone behind honks. Have to
be careful around Washington DC and Maryland, as the rule
is different and you need to know which side you're on.
The area I visit most frequently, California, does allow
right turn on red lights, and it seems to make a lot of
sense.

What's always got me is when I ask the hire car people if you can turn
right on red (or even "hang a righ'") they never seem to know.

Andy

they probably can't understand your accent - or can't understand why anyone
would ask such a daft (to them) question.

I once held a conversation with a truck driver - but I was using the word
"lorry" and he didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

John wrote:

they probably can't understand your accent - or can't understand why anyone
would ask such a daft (to them) question.

Even when prompted "in this state"? And my accent swings wildly enough
that I've had Americans look surprised when told I am from England.

(this is the result of first going to school near Glasgow, when my
mother is from Sussex and my father from Queensland)

Andy

"Mike Clarke" wrote in message
et...
Rod wrote:

Agreed. It seems to me (thinking about the lights I regularly see), the
more recent ones (which are all LED) seem to have few or no
across-the-junction repeaters. Wondered if the claimed/purported life of
the LEDs is being used as an excuse/reason not to install repeaters?

Possibly. Each lamp being an array of LED's is also probably significant,
even if a few of the LED's fail there will still be some light showing.

--
Mike Clarke



I enquired why there are not more LED traffic lights in my city. This was
the reply:

Thank you for your e-mail concerning LED traffic lights.

Until quite recently a major obstacle to using LED lamps as standard at
traffic signals was the inability of the older generation of traffic signal
controllers to monitor LED lamps due to their low power compared to standard
lamps.

This creates a safety issue as we need to monitor the vehicle red lamps for
pedestrian safety and this has limited the use of LED vehicle lamps to
signals on high poles at sites where they are supplementary to the main
traffic signals. In xxxx we also use LED signals for the latest generation
of red / green pedestrian indicators and wait lamps.

The new generation of traffic signal controllers now on the market are able
to monitor LED lamps; indeed they provide the option for the whole signal
installation being run on extra low voltage (50volts), improving the overall
safety of the signals and helping to cut installation and running costs.

It is planned that where possible new installations will be extra low
voltage with LED lamps; in fact the refurbishment of the traffic signals on
xxxx Road at the entrance to The xxxxxx Retail Park which is due to begin
this week will see this site converted to become xxxxx's first extra low
voltage traffic signals with all LED lamps.

I hope this answers your question concerning the use of LED arrays, but if
you have any further questions concerning traffic signals please do not
hesitate to contact me direct.