Hi,

Some time in 2009 I'll probably get round to refitting the bathroom.
I'll probably be bugging everyone for more advice when the time comes,
but here's a couple of questions that spring to mind now.

Firstly, the soil stack. It actually rises through a corner of the
bathroom, grey plastic pipe boxed in. Obviously the various drains, bog
outlet, etc go into it now, but the new design will involve them coming
from some different directions and possibly at different heights. If I
were fitting these pipes to a new stack it would be fine, but I suspect
that under the boxing it probably looks like swiss cheese. Is it
possible to blank off old holes when making new ones? If the blanking
kit takes up much room it's likely to get in the way of the new
fittings. So, alternatively, is it possible to break and join the stack
with a new section of pipe? The bathroom is the highest point at which
anything drains into it, but I'm a little worried about moving the pipe
up and down breaking the seal through the roof, which isn't easily
accessible.

Secondly, tiling. I've not done much before (just replaced the odd
cracked floor tile, which I found easy enough) but my natural assumption
tends to be that whatever the job I'll do it myself. However, my Dad
reckons that to get a good finish (and a ropey one would bug me no end)
is beyond unskilled abilities, and I should get a professional in. He's
just had his bathroom redone (at a price miles out of my league!) and it
does look fantastic. Obviously this is a hard thing to judge, but would
you say that good-quality tiling is beyond a careful but unskilled
DIYer? If I did decide to get someone in just for that bit, any guess as
to time and money (labour only) for wall & floor tiling of a 1.8m x 3.5m
bathroom? I've never employed someone for something like this before so
I don't even have a ballpark.

Cheers,

Pete

Pete Verdon wrote:
Hi,

Some time in 2009 I'll probably get round to refitting the bathroom.
I'll probably be bugging everyone for more advice when the time comes,
but here's a couple of questions that spring to mind now.

Firstly, the soil stack. It actually rises through a corner of the
bathroom, grey plastic pipe boxed in. Obviously the various drains, bog
outlet, etc go into it now, but the new design will involve them coming
from some different directions and possibly at different heights. If I
were fitting these pipes to a new stack it would be fine, but I suspect
that under the boxing it probably looks like swiss cheese. Is it
possible to blank off old holes when making new ones? If the blanking
kit takes up much room it's likely to get in the way of the new
fittings. So, alternatively, is it possible to break and join the stack
with a new section of pipe? The bathroom is the highest point at which
anything drains into it, but I'm a little worried about moving the pipe
up and down breaking the seal through the roof, which isn't easily
accessible.

Secondly, tiling. I've not done much before (just replaced the odd
cracked floor tile, which I found easy enough) but my natural assumption
tends to be that whatever the job I'll do it myself. However, my Dad
reckons that to get a good finish (and a ropey one would bug me no end)
is beyond unskilled abilities, and I should get a professional in. He's
just had his bathroom redone (at a price miles out of my league!) and it
does look fantastic. Obviously this is a hard thing to judge, but would
you say that good-quality tiling is beyond a careful but unskilled
DIYer? If I did decide to get someone in just for that bit, any guess as
to time and money (labour only) for wall & floor tiling of a 1.8m x 3.5m
bathroom? I've never employed someone for something like this before so
I don't even have a ballpark.

Cheers,

Pete

Regarding the stack pipe - all sorts of things are possible. Suggest you
have a look he

http://www.bes.co.uk/products/130a.asp

It is easy to connect a new piece of pipe - the only difficulty is
cutting the existing pipe if it is awkwardly located in a corner.

There are rules about how multiple pipes are connected to a stack pipe.
Can't remember the details but it's not complex - things like vertical
distance between connections.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod wrote:

Regarding the stack pipe - all sorts of things are possible. Suggest you
have a look he

http://www.bes.co.uk/products/130a.asp

Cheers. I was sort of assuming that the current bog fitting (the one
that matters) would be the strap-on type, but I guess it could just as
well be something like the "Single Branch, 2 Boss Equal" from the link
above. In that case I could probably just swivel it round 90º to point
in the new direction. Or if it is a strap-on, cut out that section of
pipe and replace with such a fitting. If I was doing that, though, I'd
have to lift and lower the upper part of the pipe to slot it into the
fitting, and as I said I'm worried about this breaking the seal where
the stack passes through the roof. I don't know how that seal is made;
access to the inside is tricky and I don't currently have a ladder that
will reach the roof for the outside.

It is easy to connect a new piece of pipe - the only difficulty is
cutting the existing pipe if it is awkwardly located in a corner.

It is in a corner so it would be hard to get a hacksaw across it, but
that just sounds like an excuse for a new tool :-) (some kind of dremel
thing with a saw wheel I guess).

There are rules about how multiple pipes are connected to a stack pipe.
Can't remember the details but it's not complex - things like vertical
distance between connections.

Ah, yes, I looked up that approved document a couple of years ago when I
nearly bought a house in which I'd have wanted to add another toilet.
Cheers for reminding me, I'll dig it up, but I doubt much of it will be
relevant to this little job.

Pete

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 22:24:44 +0000, Pete Verdon
d wrote:

Hi,

Some time in 2009 I'll probably get round to refitting the bathroom.
I'll probably be bugging everyone for more advice when the time comes,
but here's a couple of questions that spring to mind now.

Firstly, the soil stack. It actually rises through a corner of the
bathroom, grey plastic pipe boxed in.

I had that problem a few years ago. Because of the tiny size of the
bathroom (1970s ish) it was difficult to find a bath to replace the
original chocolate brown (yuk!) one because of the boxed-in soil stack
in the corner.
I had an idea of using an air admittance ("Durgo"-type) valve fitted
below the level of the bath so that I could fit a normal-sized bath.
The local BCO confirmed that there would be no objection to that as
neighbouring soil stacks were conventional so that there would be no
problem venting the sewer down the street.
However, the discharge from the wash-basin was higher than that
(obviously), which isn't recommended for AAVs.
In the end I succumbed to getting a local firm to refit the bathroom
and they let the end of the new Armitage Shanks bath into the studding
wall at the other end (just an inch or so)(towards the landing) and it
doesn't look too bad...

--
Frank Erskine

Pete Verdon wrote:
Rod wrote:

Regarding the stack pipe - all sorts of things are possible. Suggest
you have a look he

http://www.bes.co.uk/products/130a.asp

Cheers. I was sort of assuming that the current bog fitting (the one
that matters) would be the strap-on type, but I guess it could just as
well be something like the "Single Branch, 2 Boss Equal" from the link
above. In that case I could probably just swivel it round 90º to point


Its rare to see a strap on boss used for a 4" soil connection - chances
are it will be a proper branch fitting of some sort.

in the new direction. Or if it is a strap-on, cut out that section of
pipe and replace with such a fitting. If I was doing that, though, I'd
have to lift and lower the upper part of the pipe to slot it into the
fitting, and as I said I'm worried about this breaking the seal where
the stack passes through the roof. I don't know how that seal is made;
access to the inside is tricky and I don't currently have a ladder that
will reach the roof for the outside.

If in doubt, start by cutting out a section of pipe in the middle using
a reciprocating saw. You can then unplug and reassemble the stack to
your hearts content below the cut. Finally you can patch in the last bit
of pipe with a rubber slip coupling or two.

It is in a corner so it would be hard to get a hacksaw across it, but
that just sounds like an excuse for a new tool :-) (some kind of dremel
thing with a saw wheel I guess).

Recip saw with a long hacksaw blade would probably work best if it is a
plastic pipe.

There are rules about how multiple pipes are connected to a stack
pipe. Can't remember the details but it's not complex - things like
vertical distance between connections.

Ah, yes, I looked up that approved document a couple of years ago when I
nearly bought a house in which I'd have wanted to add another toilet.
Cheers for reminding me, I'll dig it up, but I doubt much of it will be
relevant to this little job.

The obvious one to avoid is having two branches facing each other at the
same height. You don't want what you flush popping out the the plug hole
in the bath!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Pete Verdon wrote:

Secondly, tiling. I've not done much before (just replaced the odd
cracked floor tile, which I found easy enough) but my natural assumption
tends to be that whatever the job I'll do it myself. However, my Dad
reckons that to get a good finish (and a ropey one would bug me no end)
is beyond unskilled abilities, and I should get a professional in. He's
just had his bathroom redone (at a price miles out of my league!) and it
does look fantastic. Obviously this is a hard thing to judge, but would
you say that good-quality tiling is beyond a careful but unskilled
DIYer? If I did decide to get someone in just for that bit, any guess as

Yup, its eminently doable. If you prepare carefully, use decent adhesive
and grout, and take your time. Tools are fairly minimal. A good score
and snap cutter, a small electric tile saw for the tricky cuts, a decent
adhesive trowel (makes getting a level bed of adhesive much simpler than
with those silly plastic things you get free in the tub), and a rubber
faced grout float.

to time and money (labour only) for wall & floor tiling of a 1.8m x 3.5m
bathroom? I've never employed someone for something like this before so
I don't even have a ballpark.

Last time I saw a job of about that size done professionally it cost
about £450 IIRC - that was about three years ago though.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 22:24:44 +0000, Pete Verdon
d wrote:


Obviously this is a hard thing to judge, but would
you say that good-quality tiling is beyond a careful but unskilled
DIYer? If I did decide to get someone in just for that bit, any guess as
to time and money (labour only) for wall & floor tiling of a 1.8m x 3.5m
bathroom? I've never employed someone for something like this before so
I don't even have a ballpark.


Do it yourself, take your time. Apply the grout with a grouting
sponge. (Five years ago I paid to have my en suite done and did the
bathroom myself. I can see where I've done it better, because I took
longer, than the professionals and where they did it better because
they had more experience but there's not much in it. )

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:15:56 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Pete Verdon wrote:

Secondly, tiling. I've not done much before (just replaced the odd
cracked floor tile, which I found easy enough) but my natural assumption
tends to be that whatever the job I'll do it myself. However, my Dad
reckons that to get a good finish (and a ropey one would bug me no end)
is beyond unskilled abilities, and I should get a professional in. He's
just had his bathroom redone (at a price miles out of my league!) and it
does look fantastic. Obviously this is a hard thing to judge, but would
you say that good-quality tiling is beyond a careful but unskilled
DIYer? If I did decide to get someone in just for that bit, any guess as

Yup, its eminently doable. If you prepare carefully, use decent adhesive
and grout, and take your time. Tools are fairly minimal. A good score
and snap cutter, a small electric tile saw for the tricky cuts, a decent
adhesive trowel (makes getting a level bed of adhesive much simpler than
with those silly plastic things you get free in the tub), and a rubber
faced grout float.

to time and money (labour only) for wall & floor tiling of a 1.8m x 3.5m
bathroom? I've never employed someone for something like this before so
I don't even have a ballpark.

Last time I saw a job of about that size done professionally it cost
about £450 IIRC - that was about three years ago though.

I agree with John about the tools, particularly a good adhesive trowel
and a rubber faced grout float (not a sponge - it's harder to force
the grout firmly into the joints, and is a lot slower to use). Use a
slightly damp sponge to wipe down afterwards.

You'll also need a decent spirit level to get everything
horizontal/vertical all around the room and some battens to nail/screw
to the wall to tile up from, otherwise the tiles may slip down. Don't
assume that anything in the room is vertical, horizontal or straight!

Setting out is everything, before you even open the tub of adhesive.
Plan where the tiles go, both vertically and horizontally, so you
don't end up with silly small gaps at corners, around window frames
etc, and don't have very narrow bits to rim off tiles. Try and make
cut tiles at each side of a wall/window reveal a similar width. Allow
for out of true wall corners, windows and door.

On each wall draw two straight datum lines, one horizontal and one
vertical, to work from. Make sure the horizontal one joins up with
itself when you've gone around the room.

If you don't do the setting out properly, you WILL regret it later.
Try and get a look at a few professionally done bathrooms and look at
how the tiles are set out.

Take your time, you might take 3 or 4 times longer than a
professional, but you can get a good finish and the result can be very
satisfying.

(from a non professional tiler who's done it)
David

DavidM wrote:

some battens to nail/screw to the wall to tile up from, otherwise the
tiles may slip down.

OK, I guess one wouldn't want to tile upwards from a possibly
not-horizontal floor. Is the idea that the batten is fixed with the top
one tile-height from (some of) the floor, and then the bottom row of
tiles is slotted in once the rest of the wall is fitted and secure?

I'll probably be replacing the floor anyway; I believe it's currently
normal boards and certainly whatever it is it moves far too much to tile
onto. (Not that that has stopped someone from trying, and the current
tiles are mostly loose and/or cracked). Is it worth trying to get the
floor completely horizontal (within tolerance, anyway) and then tiling
up from it instead of a batten? This doesn't prevent me falling back to
a batten if it turns out the finished floor isn't as flat as I'd hoped.

Incidentally, what *is* regarded as a sufficiently stable floor for
tiling, on a normal timber first-floor structure? Just normal green
chipboard, or is it best to add ply or something on top of that?

I'm considering including under-floor heating, not so much to keep my
tootsies warm (I have no problem in bare feet with the various unheated
tiled floors downstairs) but to evaporate off water left on the floor
after a shower. For twenty years my Dad has gone nuts about manually
drying off every surface in his bathroom - I'm not planning to build a
full-on wet room, but neither do I want to worry about not leaving
puddles. For the same sort of reason, I want to make the floor and walls
totally impervious - actually as if it *were* a wet room. I've been
looking at various membranes that go under the tiles - presumably these
are needed because the grouted joints aren't actually 100% waterproof?

Allow for out of true wall corners, windows and door.

Is there a special technique for that? Naively, I'd allow for it by
tiling towards such features rather than away from them, and then
cutting the tiles in the final column to fit the gap that exists. Any
other tips?

Pete

Pete Verdon wrote:
DavidM wrote:

some battens to nail/screw to the wall to tile up from, otherwise the
tiles may slip down.

OK, I guess one wouldn't want to tile upwards from a possibly
not-horizontal floor. Is the idea that the batten is fixed with the top
one tile-height from (some of) the floor, and then the bottom row of
tiles is slotted in once the rest of the wall is fitted and secure?

That depends on how they layout vertically. As Dave mentioned, you need
to look at the fit of the tiles in both directions before committing
yourself. Many people will try and position the tiles so as to get the
fewest number of cuts - often this can be a mistake. You may find for
example that a whole tile at the bottom means you need a 16th of one at
the top, or the run out in the floor may be such that you would end up
needing to make very fine cuts to keep things level. Its often better to
"half and half" such situations - move the tile say half a tile down so
that you have to cut all the top and all the bottom tiles, but you have
nice workable sized bits to fix rather than slivers. Same can go with
corners and window reveals. Work out what will look right and tile to
that. If you must have a line that changes width along its length then
its much better if it is not too narrow - makes it less obvious to the eye.

If you are using skirting or coving, then you have much more freedom to
position, since the edges will be hidden.

I'll probably be replacing the floor anyway; I believe it's currently
normal boards and certainly whatever it is it moves far too much to tile
onto. (Not that that has stopped someone from trying, and the current
tiles are mostly loose and/or cracked). Is it worth trying to get the
floor completely horizontal (within tolerance, anyway) and then tiling
up from it instead of a batten? This doesn't prevent me falling back to
a batten if it turns out the finished floor isn't as flat as I'd hoped.

Personally I would worry about tiling from the floor - that row can go
in anytime and you can adjust for any unevenness as you do it. If it si
well out of level then you may want to tru it up a bit by adding packers
under the existing boards. Then screw 9mm WBP ply down over the boards
and use a flexible floor tile glue to fix them. Make sure to screw it
well - say every 6" (and make sure the screws are not just a fraction
too long such that when you find the concealed central heating pipe that
is pressed hard against the underside of the board, you end up nicking a
pipe (DAMHIKIJDOK))

Incidentally, what *is* regarded as a sufficiently stable floor for
tiling, on a normal timber first-floor structure? Just normal green
chipboard, or is it best to add ply or something on top of that?

If the existing boards are 19mm then as above. If the existing floor is
too bad you can always replace it with ply all over.

tootsies warm (I have no problem in bare feet with the various unheated
tiled floors downstairs) but to evaporate off water left on the floor
after a shower. For twenty years my Dad has gone nuts about manually
drying off every surface in his bathroom - I'm not planning to build a
full-on wet room, but neither do I want to worry about not leaving
puddles. For the same sort of reason, I want to make the floor and walls
totally impervious - actually as if it *were* a wet room. I've been
looking at various membranes that go under the tiles - presumably these
are needed because the grouted joints aren't actually 100% waterproof?

If you are expecting significant quantities of water (i.e. a wet room)
then there is always the danger that you get a leak somewhere. For
ordinary bathroom tiling however you can get more than satisfactory
results without membranes.

A couple of tricks that help, is to not grout the corners and to use
silicone here instead - since this is a place that any movement will
open up a crack. In things like shower enclosures its worth using a
waterproof backing board rather than plasterboard - you can also help by
applying a full bed of adhesive and then ribbing the top, rather than
just ribs with gaps. Use a waterproof glue obviously. Anytime you want
to seal against a corner (say for a shower tray) leave at least a tile
thickness space to get the sealant well into.

Allow for out of true wall corners, windows and door.

Is there a special technique for that? Naively, I'd allow for it by
tiling towards such features rather than away from them, and then
cutting the tiles in the final column to fit the gap that exists. Any

Again - keep any strips of cut tiles wider rather than narrower to
minimise visible error.

If you need to go round wide pipes (i.e. soil pipes, boiler flues etc),
then take this into account with your tile positioning - if you can get
the pipe half way into two tiles it is much easier to cut to half
circles than one full one.

other tips?

Lithofin grout protector works well to keep grout looking clean and new.
You apply it once when done, it soaks in without a trace, but adds
polymer protection to the grout.

Straight cuts away from the edges of the tiles are easy with a good
quality score and snap cutter. Fine slithers need doing with a tile saw
though.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

Thanks for all the advice so far.

Straight cuts away from the edges of the tiles are easy with a good
quality score and snap cutter. Fine slithers need doing with a tile saw
though.

I already have an electric tile saw from replacing a couple of tiles in
the kitchen floor. Does a score&snap cutter have benefits over that for
the simple cuts? I guess it might be faster?

Cheers,

Pete

Pete Verdon wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Thanks for all the advice so far.

Straight cuts away from the edges of the tiles are easy with a good
quality score and snap cutter. Fine slithers need doing with a tile
saw though.

I already have an electric tile saw from replacing a couple of tiles in
the kitchen floor. Does a score&snap cutter have benefits over that for
the simple cuts? I guess it might be faster?


That the only benefit I have found. Pro tilers using very cheap white
tiles on more or less square walls can do the job faster, but I found
score and snap to be a pain on larger harder more expensive tiles,
resulting in many breakages, to the point where I only use the saw these
days.



Cheers,

Pete

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 03:23:24 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:



OK, I guess one wouldn't want to tile upwards from a possibly
not-horizontal floor. Is the idea that the batten is fixed with the top
one tile-height from (some of) the floor, and then the bottom row of
tiles is slotted in once the rest of the wall is fitted and secure?

That depends on how they layout vertically. As Dave mentioned, you need
to look at the fit of the tiles in both directions before committing
yourself. Many people will try and position the tiles so as to get the
fewest number of cuts - often this can be a mistake. You may find for
example that a whole tile at the bottom means you need a 16th of one at
the top, or the run out in the floor may be such that you would end up
needing to make very fine cuts to keep things level. Its often better to
"half and half" such situations - move the tile say half a tile down so
that you have to cut all the top and all the bottom tiles, but you have
nice workable sized bits to fix rather than slivers.

I would in any case leave a slightly over sized gap between the bottom
wall tile and the floor, and then finish with a bead of silicone
forced well into the gap. If there's any water splashing around on the
floor it's this join that most susceptible to movement and leaks.

I know I'm repeating myself, but do try and take a look at some
professionally tiled bathrooms (NOT bathroom showrooms) and see how
(and try and work out why) they have laid out the tiles in the way
they have . Many prof tilers will tell you that setting out is the
trickiest and most important part of the job, and it's worth trying to
learn from their experience.
[gets off soapbox]
David

Pete Verdon wrote:
DavidM wrote:

some battens to nail/screw to the wall to tile up from, otherwise the
tiles may slip down.

OK, I guess one wouldn't want to tile upwards from a possibly
not-horizontal floor. Is the idea that the batten is fixed with the top
one tile-height from (some of) the floor, and then the bottom row of
tiles is slotted in once the rest of the wall is fitted and secure?


No, the idea of the batten is that the tiles below it can be measured
and cut individually to allow for the floor not being level. If the
batten is set well under a tile width, it's easy to snap cut the last
line, even if they're slightly angled. Leaving yourself with a 5mm
tapered cut isn't a good idea or, worse still, realising that the other
end of the batten is in fact slightly higher than a tile width :-)

In the real world, most people start with a line along the top of the
bath and work downwards where the wall becomes full height. Tiles don't
slip far, and you can just shunt them up as you go. A couple of nails in
the plaster is enough to keep them in place if you're having a break.

Pete Verdon wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Thanks for all the advice so far.

Straight cuts away from the edges of the tiles are easy with a good
quality score and snap cutter. Fine slithers need doing with a tile
saw though.

I already have an electric tile saw from replacing a couple of tiles in
the kitchen floor. Does a score&snap cutter have benefits over that for
the simple cuts? I guess it might be faster?

Cheers,

Pete

Much, much faster. No mess. Sits next to you rather than in the garden :-)

Pete Verdon wrote:

Straight cuts away from the edges of the tiles are easy with a good
quality score and snap cutter. Fine slithers need doing with a tile
saw though.

I already have an electric tile saw from replacing a couple of tiles in
the kitchen floor. Does a score&snap cutter have benefits over that for
the simple cuts? I guess it might be faster?

Much faster, & cleaner. If you need repeat cuts, you can probably do
half a dozen a minute with a score and snap cutter. A dual action one like:

http://www.plasplugs.com/tiling-tile-cutter-pt313.html

works well enough for tiles up to 10mm. I find it exceedingly rare to
break a tile using these. Some types of tile you can't cut with these -
typically the softer stuff like travertine marble or anything else with
a natural non consistent biscuit.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

DavidM wrote:

I know I'm repeating myself, but do try and take a look at some
professionally tiled bathrooms (NOT bathroom showrooms) and see how
(and try and work out why) they have laid out the tiles in the way
they have

You don't need to repeat yourself - I agree it's a good idea :-)

I have at least one example to look at - my parents have recently spent
many thousands on having their bathroom professionally done. As a whole
it's not perfect (the design is compromised by Mum's insistence on
fitting a bath where there isn't really space) but the tiling is f-ing
immaculate.

I've been admiring it in general since deciding to do this job, but next
time I'm there I'll have a specific look at how the setting-out has been
done.

Pete