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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a
battery bank, and batteries are expensive. So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy? E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of electrical power you need? ?? Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries. John |
#2
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
John Nagelson wrote:
Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a battery bank, and batteries are expensive. So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy? E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of electrical power you need? They already use water as the large weight, is anything practical? Just over 1kWh from 4 tonnes lifted 100m (excluding losses). |
#3
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
On Dec 7, 3:41*pm, Andy Burns wrote:
John Nagelson wrote: Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a battery bank, and batteries are expensive. So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy? E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of electrical power you need? They already use water as the large weight, is anything practical? Just over 1kWh from 4 tonnes lifted 100m (excluding losses). True that (mass) x (g) x (height) = (required power) x (time) gives large figures for (mass) x (height). But maybe with concrete or old cars? Or maybe store some as elastic potential energy? I'm only thinking about at a domestic level. John |
#4
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
"John Nagelson" wrote in message ... On Dec 7, 3:41 pm, Andy Burns wrote: John Nagelson wrote: Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a battery bank, and batteries are expensive. So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy? E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of electrical power you need? They already use water as the large weight, is anything practical? Just over 1kWh from 4 tonnes lifted 100m (excluding losses). True that (mass) x (g) x (height) = (required power) x (time) gives large figures for (mass) x (height). But maybe with concrete or old cars? Or maybe store some as elastic potential energy? I'm only thinking about at a domestic level. John ____ Take a read of chapter 4 of Prof David Mackays fantastic book on sustainable energy: http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/s...ok/tex/cft.pdf (10 meg download) I think actually harvesting sufficient wind energy in the first place is problem zero. D |
#5
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
John Nagelson wrote:
On Dec 7, 3:41 pm, Andy Burns wrote: John Nagelson wrote: Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a battery bank, and batteries are expensive. So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy? E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of electrical power you need? They already use water as the large weight, is anything practical? Just over 1kWh from 4 tonnes lifted 100m (excluding losses). True that (mass) x (g) x (height) = (required power) x (time) gives large figures for (mass) x (height). But maybe with concrete or old cars? Or maybe store some as elastic potential energy? I'm only thinking about at a domestic level. When you look at energy density, for any form of storage of usable energy, you find a scale, and the lowest on the scale is mass times height systems. Much better is mass times velocity squared, and heat. Both of those can be large in small spaces and volumes. At moderate heats too. Then comes chemical energy, liquid fuels, batteries and the like. Things start to get pretty compact. Self contained portable power units of sensible dimensions become possible. At the top of the scale is nuclear energy. John |
#6
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
John Nagelson wrote:
On Dec 7, 3:41 pm, Andy Burns wrote: John Nagelson wrote: Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a battery bank, and batteries are expensive. So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy? E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of electrical power you need? They already use water as the large weight, is anything practical? Just over 1kWh from 4 tonnes lifted 100m (excluding losses). True that (mass) x (g) x (height) = (required power) x (time) gives large figures for (mass) x (height). But maybe with concrete or old cars? Or maybe store some as elastic potential energy? I'm only thinking about at a domestic level. John Getting four tonnes of material isn't a problem. But what mechanism have you got that would raise that four tonnes 100 metres straight up? Or 40 tonnes 10 metres? Or 400 tonnes one metre? The raising and lowering has to be a) safe; b) controlled; c) connected to some sort of generator. And all that for a measly 1 kWh. Maybe if you had an arrangement which used your whole house as the weight? But the cost of making it (in financial and resources terms) would be prohibitive. -- Rod Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious onset. Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed. www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org |
#7
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
Rod wrote:
But what mechanism have you got that would raise that four tonnes 100 metres straight up? I haven't got one, I was just pointing out the scale of the problem And all that for a measly 1 kWh. Exactly. |
#8
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potentialenergy?
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 17:09:00 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:
Rod wrote: But what mechanism have you got that would raise that four tonnes 100 metres straight up? I haven't got one, I was just pointing out the scale of the problem And all that for a measly 1 kWh. Exactly. The only place I've seen this work is in an LED standard lamp - you manually lift a mildly heavy weight from floor to 5' off the ground, then it falls slowly while running a generator (through a gearbox) for a couple of hours. If you're seriously looking at this sort of thing you need to get your whole house consumption down from 1kW average (what ours is while occupied, TV on etc.) to a few hundred watts at most. |
#9
Posted to uk.d-i-y,alt.energy.homepower
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
John Nagelson wrote:
Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a battery bank, and batteries are expensive. a persistant myth http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index....y_construction So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy? E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of electrical power you need? ?? Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries. John how would you arrange gearing? Or would you have it only charge when half max windspeed were reached, and throw away any extra energy at higher speeds? Have you calculated what mass and height you'd use? NT |
#10
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
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#11
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
On 7 Dec, 15:42, wrote:
John Nagelson wrote: Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a battery bank, and batteries are expensive. a persistant mythhttp://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Lead_acid_battery_const... This is crazy. I am far from an elfinsafetee fan. So, OK for a few-off cells by someone technically competent - but on a 'home-industrial" scale? That is idiotic. It is bulk H2SO4 you would be playing with. Have you ever had a sulphuric acid burn? Even a small spot stings like hell and it takes weeks for the scar to heal. Not to mention the mass of volatile ions being spurted into the air Could you be sure you could contain it safely? AND be sure no idiot tests the water with their finger.... Solve all those problems and you'd still have potential risks from lead contamination of the househild environment. Car batteries are surrounded by a rugged rubberised casing & sealed, but even so cases have been known to split. Have you calculated how much you need to store 10 to 20 KWhr (typical household daily elec requirements excluding space heating)? How much space it would take? And there is all the trouble of handling a DC supply. However running a wind generator to heat the domestic hot water directly might be feasible depending on the costs of suitable generator (s). That could store the generated energy quite nicely, but as with all such schemes you would have to accept lack of hot water when you need it most (eg during a run of windless mid-winter days with no cloud cover). It might be possible to extend such a scheme to space heating and to charging electric car batteries, but same objections apply. Even then you'd find extensive costs when it comes to implementation, Wind is popularly regarded as "free" energy. But it is no cheaper than the oil and coal lying free underground. Just like for coal and oil, spending starts when you start to build & run the infrastructure to extract the energy. Alas, an idiot's "don't try this at home" message needs appending to the wiki article: as if anyone could be so stupid... |
#12
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember jim saying something like: a persistant mythhttp://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Lead_acid_battery_const... This is crazy. I am far from an elfinsafetee fan. So, OK for a few-off cells by someone technically competent - but on a 'home-industrial" scale? That is idiotic. It is bulk H2SO4 you would be playing with. Have you ever had a sulphuric acid burn? Even a small spot stings like hell and it takes weeks for the scar to heal. Not to mention the mass of volatile ions being spurted into the air Could you be sure you could contain it safely? AND be sure no idiot tests the water with their finger.... Solve all those problems and you'd still have potential risks from lead contamination of the househild environment. Car batteries are surrounded by a rugged rubberised casing & sealed, but even so cases have been known to split. Have you calculated how much you need to store 10 to 20 KWhr (typical household daily elec requirements excluding space heating)? How much space it would take? And there is all the trouble of handling a DC supply. However running a wind generator to heat the domestic hot water directly might be feasible depending on the costs of suitable generator (s). That could store the generated energy quite nicely, but as with all such schemes you would have to accept lack of hot water when you need it most (eg during a run of windless mid-winter days with no cloud cover). It might be possible to extend such a scheme to space heating and to charging electric car batteries, but same objections apply. Even then you'd find extensive costs when it comes to implementation, Wind is popularly regarded as "free" energy. But it is no cheaper than the oil and coal lying free underground. Just like for coal and oil, spending starts when you start to build & run the infrastructure to extract the energy. Alas, an idiot's "don't try this at home" message needs appending to the wiki article: as if anyone could be so stupid... Ah right; those thousands of people who are living off-grid with medium to large battery banks must all be living in fear and trembling of getting burnt or blowing up. Hint: we're not all as stupid as you think we are. |
#13
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
On 7 Dec, 19:05, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote: We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember jim saying something like: a persistant mythhttp://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Lead_acid_battery_const... This is crazy. I am far from an elfinsafetee fan. *So, OK *for a few-off cells by someone technically competent - but on a 'home-industrial" scale? That is idiotic. It is bulk H2SO4 you would be playing with. *Have you ever had a sulphuric acid burn? *Even a small spot stings like hell and it takes weeks for the scar to heal. *Not to mention the mass of volatile ions being spurted into the air * Could you be sure you could contain it safely? *AND be sure no idiot tests the water with their finger.... Solve all those problems and you'd still have potential risks from lead contamination of the househild environment. Car batteries are surrounded by a rugged rubberised casing & sealed, but even so cases have been known to split. Have you calculated how much you need to store 10 to 20 KWhr (typical household daily elec requirements excluding space heating)? *How much space it would take? *And there is all the trouble of handling *a DC supply. However running a wind generator to heat the domestic hot water directly might be feasible depending on the costs of suitable generator (s). *That could store the generated energy quite nicely, but as with all such schemes you would have to accept lack of hot water when you need it most (eg during a run of windless mid-winter days with no cloud cover). It might be possible to extend such a scheme to space heating and to charging electric car batteries, but same objections apply. *Even then you'd find extensive costs when it comes to implementation, Wind is popularly regarded as "free" energy. *But it is no cheaper than the oil and coal lying free underground. *Just like for coal and oil, spending starts when you start to build & run the infrastructure to extract the energy. Alas, an idiot's "don't try this at home" message needs appending to the wiki article: as if anyone could be so stupid... Ah right; those thousands of people who are living off-grid with medium to large battery banks what constructed as shown in the wiki article? If you mean properly a constructed robust and sealed lead acid battery bank (as used in telephone exchanges) then no problem: but the poster pointed at the wiki article as the way to do it. He is welcome to the experience - for as long as he can drag it out.. // |
#14
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:46:37 -0800 (PST), jim
wrote: (Can't believe I'm actually replying to this...) Have you calculated how much you need to store 10 to 20 KWhr (typical household daily elec requirements excluding space heating)? How much space it would take? And there is all the trouble of handling a DC supply. Well, in the case of my house's UPS, that's 24 volts at 1000 amp-hours. I got the 20 AGMs as a matched but used set as scrap from an AVS electric bus battery pack. A good alternative is a 48 volt, 500 amp-hour fork-lift battery. They're recycled when they fail to run a whole shift. That is, with most of their life remaining. Again, easily purchased for scrap value which is currently about 5 cents a pound. However running a wind generator to heat the domestic hot water directly might be feasible depending on the costs of suitable generator (s). That could store the generated energy quite nicely, but as with all such schemes you would have to accept lack of hot water when you need it most (eg during a run of windless mid-winter days with no cloud cover). Well, this whole thread is silly and those of us who can do simple math are just funning around. Anyone who thinks that they're going to supply their house with 20kWh of wind power on a daily basis cheaper than the utility power is smoking something MIGHTY FINE! My UPS is grid-charged and is here for the week-long outages we frequently have in the winter up here in the mountains. As far as hassles, there are none. The main UPS is over 15 years old and has never needed even its ears scratched, much less any attention. AGMs don't need attention and don't leak acid so no corroded connectors to deal with. I do look at it every so often just to make sure all the lights that should be green ARE green but other than that, it simply occupies some floor space in the basement. BFD. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com -- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever. |
#15
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
Neon John wrote in
: A good alternative is a 48 volt, 500 amp-hour fork-lift battery. They're recycled when they fail to run a whole shift. That is, with most of their life remaining. Again, easily purchased for scrap value which is currently about 5 cents a pound. Those forklift batteries are so freaking heavy you may as well use them as the mass for the gravitational potential energy storage You could charge the batteries till they were full and then use the lifting on them as the diversion load ha hah ha |
#16
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
On 7 Dec, 19:29, Neon John wrote:
On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:46:37 -0800 (PST), jim // Well, in the case of my house's UPS, that's 24 volts at 1000 amp-hours. that is (assuming you can drain the last drop out of the battery) 2.4KWhr - a perfectly valid emergency supply *I got the 20 AGMs as a matched but used set as scrap from an AVS electric bus battery pack. and you have it bunded - ie it is in your cellar. & it is NOT the Heath Robinson brew suggested by the wiki article. // Well, this whole thread is silly and those of us who can do simple math are just funning around. *Anyone who thinks that they're going to supply their house with 20kWh of wind power on a daily basis cheaper than the utility power is smoking something MIGHTY FINE! Oh yes? There's loads of idiots out there, including govt ministers and advisers and civil servants, who obviously cannot do the simple sums & do not think it is a silly idea. And they are right there in the middle of govt putting up all of our elec bills. The daft idea has got out that wind energy is 'free' and all you do is put up a fan, plug it into the mains and lie back whilst the cheques roll in. It is perhaps inexhaustable, but is it truly renewable? The expected life of a wind turbine is c.30years. Not very long as electrical generation infrastructure goes. Plus there is a large plug of expensive-energy-consumed concrete under it. |
#17
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
jim wrote:
On 7 Dec, 19:29, Neon John wrote: in the case of my house's UPS, that's 24 volts at 1000 amp-hours. that is (assuming you can drain the last drop out of the battery) 2.4KWhr - a perfectly valid emergency supply 24kWh, more than a days worth for most homes, especially if you realise it's an emergency and can cut down on usage to make it last. |
#18
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:10:35 -0800 (PST), jim
wrote: On 7 Dec, 19:29, Neon John wrote: On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:46:37 -0800 (PST), jim // Well, in the case of my house's UPS, that's 24 volts at 1000 amp-hours. that is (assuming you can drain the last drop out of the battery) 2.4KWhr - a perfectly valid emergency supply You might want to check your decimal. It slipped a notch. Last time I checked, 24 volts times 1 kilo-amp-hour is 24 kWh. *I got the 20 AGMs as a matched but used set as scrap from an AVS electric bus battery pack. and you have it bunded - ie it is in your cellar. WTF is bunded. Yep, in my basement, sitting on concrete in two rows of 10 batteries in a series/parallel string. The manufacturer recommends regularly discharging them to 80%. That's not a limit but a recommended DOD. Yes, these are traction batteries and no, they're not standby batteries. I do take them down that far every so often because that is the recommended treatment. In normal use, I'd be hard pressed to take 'em down 25% before I need to run the generator for cooking or water heating and thus power the 200 amp charger. & it is NOT the Heath Robinson brew suggested by the wiki article. That guy was a total knucklehead, which is why I clipped his URL. BTW, I have a book here dating from the 20s that instructs one on building "pasteless batteries" using a process a bit more sophisticated but similar to that guy's. this one involves several plates, separated by cedar wood spacers and formed into battery plates by hooking an Edison lamp in series with the 110 volt DC lighting service. the Edison lamps were what? 4 watts or something like that? Forming took several weeks according to the book. Well, this whole thread is silly and those of us who can do simple math are just funning around. *Anyone who thinks that they're going to supply their house with 20kWh of wind power on a daily basis cheaper than the utility power is smoking something MIGHTY FINE! Oh yes? There's loads of idiots out there, including govt ministers and advisers and civil servants, who obviously cannot do the simple sums & do not think it is a silly idea. And they are right there in the middle of govt putting up all of our elec bills. The daft idea has got out that wind energy is 'free' and all you do is put up a fan, plug it into the mains and lie back whilst the cheques roll in. It is perhaps inexhaustable, but is it truly renewable? The expected life of a wind turbine is c.30years. Not very long as electrical generation infrastructure goes. Plus there is a large plug of expensive-energy-consumed concrete under it. No energy source is actually renewable in the traditional meaning of the word. Of course, this has become a religion and like in all religions, common everyday words get twisted and distorted. By any rational definition of "renewable", a breeder reactor is the MOST renewable since it makes more fuel than it consumes. OH, did I use the word "rational"? My bad. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com -- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Serenity: That feeling of knowing that your secretary will never tell either of your wives. |
#19
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:10:35 -0800 (PST) someone who may be jim
wrote this:- Oh yes? There's loads of idiots out there, including govt ministers and advisers and civil servants, who obviously cannot do the simple sums & do not think it is a silly idea. And they are right there in the middle of govt putting up all of our elec bills. The RO scheme was costing each household £9 a year in 2007. £2.25 a quarter, somewhat less than the price of a pint of beer. To this one should add the various energy efficiency schemes, around £10 per quarter and around £12 for the EU emissions trading scheme. The estimate was that in 2008 all these measures would increase bills by £9 per year. http://www.sd-commission.org.uk/publications/downloads/DomesticEnergyPriceAnalysis.pdf I'm not a fan of the emissions trading debacle, but I think the rest is money well spent. The daft idea has got out that wind energy is 'free' and all you do is put up a fan, plug it into the mains and lie back whilst the cheques roll in. I think that this idea is only a feature of straw man arguments. It is perhaps inexhaustable, but is it truly renewable? The expected life of a wind turbine is c.30years. Not very long as electrical generation infrastructure goes. What we are beginning to see often happens is that the original wind farm is repowered after a decade or so and the old wind turbines re-used elsewhere. The Dancing Ladies of Gigha are an example of re-used turbines http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/SustainableDevelopment/CaseStudies/DancingLadiesofGigha. Plus there is a large plug of expensive-energy-consumed concrete under it. Vestas included the "large" amount of concrete in their studies http://www.vestas.com/en/about-vestas/sustainability/wind-turbines-and-the-environment/life-cycle-assessment-(lca).aspx. I will be interested in seeing your rebuttals. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54 |
#20
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
Neon John wrote:
My UPS is grid-charged and is here for the week-long outages we frequently have in the winter up here in the mountains. As far as hassles, there are none. The main UPS is over 15 years old and has never needed even its ears scratched, much less any attention. AGMs don't need attention and don't leak acid so no corroded connectors to deal with. I do look at it every so often just to make sure all the lights that should be green ARE green but other than that, it simply occupies some floor space in the basement. BFD. What whole house UPS system do you have John? |
#22
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 07:42:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:
John Nagelson wrote: Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a battery bank, and batteries are expensive. a persistant myth http://www.wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index....y_construction So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy? E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of electrical power you need? ?? Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries. John how would you arrange gearing? Or would you have it only charge when half max windspeed were reached, and throw away any extra energy at higher speeds? Have you calculated what mass and height you'd use? http://home.clara.net/darvill/altenerg/pumped.htm Pump it up and use it when you need it |
#23
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
Alang wrote:
http://home.clara.net/darvill/altenerg/pumped.htm If only Carole Vorderman had stuck to the day job eh? Instead of flogging consolidation loans to Countdown viewers who think she's good at maths... |
#24
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
"Andy Burns" wrote in message et... Alang wrote: http://home.clara.net/darvill/altenerg/pumped.htm If only Carole Vorderman had stuck to the day job eh? Instead of flogging consolidation loans to Countdown viewers who think she's good at maths... My other half is also an engineer and she admires Carol Vorderman. I asked her if it was because Carol was a good engineer? No. Is it because she trained in an almost all male environment and still made it through? No. OK, I give in. Why is it you admire Carol Vorderman? She married a good looking guy and got a job on the TV. Sheesh!!! Women. |
#25
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 18:51:39 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote: Alang wrote: http://home.clara.net/darvill/altenerg/pumped.htm If only Carole Vorderman had stuck to the day job eh? Instead of flogging consolidation loans to Countdown viewers who think she's good at maths... Jeremy Clarkson can drive too |
#26
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
Alang wrote:
On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 18:51:39 +0000, Andy Burns wrote: Alang wrote: http://home.clara.net/darvill/altenerg/pumped.htm If only Carole Vorderman had stuck to the day job eh? Instead of flogging consolidation loans to Countdown viewers who think she's good at maths... Jeremy Clarkson can drive too Thats a matter of opinion.;-) |
#27
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
"John Nagelson" wrote in message ... Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a battery bank, and batteries are expensive. So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy? E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of electrical power you need? ?? Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries. John Umm do you have any idea on the weight required. I reckon my average consumption is around 2kW. Lets assume need to store energy for 24 hours supply. Lets assume maximum height available, practically, is 10m. PE = mgh 2kW for 24hrs is 48kWhr 48kWhr = 173MJ Solve for m in equation ----- err 1600 metric tonnes, and that assumes 100% efficiency in recovering the energy. Yep, sounds practical to me! |
#28
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
"Richard Head" wrote in message ... "John Nagelson" wrote in message ... Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a battery bank, and batteries are expensive. So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy? E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of electrical power you need? ?? Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries. John Umm do you have any idea on the weight required. I reckon my average consumption is around 2kW. Lets assume need to store energy for 24 hours supply. Lets assume maximum height available, practically, is 10m. PE = mgh 2kW for 24hrs is 48kWhr 48kWhr = 173MJ Solve for m in equation ----- err 1600 metric tonnes, and that assumes 100% efficiency in recovering the energy. Yep, sounds practical to me! I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses back in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed energy when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop and start vehicle but god knows how they arranged the pulley/ gear train to achieve the necessary power transfers. Interesting though!! Don |
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:13:52 -0000, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot
wrote: I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses back in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed energy when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop and start vehicle I once saw a BBC Christmas lecture by Prof Eric Laithwaite which explored the idea. The biggest issue was safety, the energy stored in the flywheel would have been tremendous and if a failure occured and the flywheel escaped it would have carved "A neat slot" through buildings for miles across the city. That and Gyroscopic precession. If the flywheel was horizontal the bus could turn left or right, but if ever one side of the bus ran into a gutter and the bus tried to rotate the flywheel in the horizontal axis once again absolutely tremendous forces would impinge on the bearings / mountings of the flywheel. but god knows how they arranged the pulley/ gear train to achieve the necessary power transfers. Intuitively I feel sure that could be done magnetically / electrically Derek |
#30
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
Derek Geldard wrote:
On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:13:52 -0000, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot wrote: I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses back in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed energy when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop and start vehicle I once saw a BBC Christmas lecture by Prof Eric Laithwaite which explored the idea. The biggest issue was safety, the energy stored in the flywheel would have been tremendous and if a failure occured and the flywheel escaped it would have carved "A neat slot" through buildings for miles across the city. That and Gyroscopic precession. If the flywheel was horizontal the bus could turn left or right, but if ever one side of the bus ran into a gutter and the bus tried to rotate the flywheel in the horizontal axis once again absolutely tremendous forces would impinge on the bearings / mountings of the flywheel. but god knows how they arranged the pulley/ gear train to achieve the necessary power transfers. Intuitively I feel sure that could be done magnetically / electrically Derek I met Laithwaite around that time and was somewhat caught up in his obsession with gyros for a while. The gyro effect in this case is quite easily overcome if you are using electric transmission, the flywheel assembly can be mounted on gimbals and the axis remain vertical regardless of the incline. Otherwise the front wheels will come off the ground when you go downhill! I don't have a reference, but I remember reading about steam-era shunting locomotives (used as I recall in quarries), that used flywheel power storage, recharged periodically from a stationary boiler. One set-up that intrigued me was a pair of counter-rotating flywheels on a common axis in an evacuated chamber. I felt it had to be good for something, but apart from land mines I don't know what. Tim Jackson |
#31
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
On Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:14:18 +0000, Tim Jackson wrote:
I don't have a reference, but I remember reading about steam-era shunting locomotives (used as I recall in quarries), that used flywheel power storage, recharged periodically from a stationary boiler. I'm somewhat of a railroad buff, and at least in America, I've never heard of a flywheel powered locomotive. There WERE stored energy locomotives however. Commonly known as "thermos bottle" locomotives, they were charged with superheated water from a stationary boiler and subsequently operated for several hours on the stored heat. They were very popular in powerhouses and coal yards for obvious reasons (no fire hazard) and in places like steel mills were they had to operate indoors. here are some photos of thermos locomotives, on display at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. I especially like the Pennsylvania Power one which looks most like a conventional locomotive. http://www.neon-john.com/RV/Trips/Thermos_01.jpg http://www.neon-john.com/RV/Trips/Thermos_02.jpg http://www.neon-john.com/RV/Trips/Thermos_03.jpg John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com -- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood. -Marie Curie |
#32
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
Derek Geldard wrote:
On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:13:52 -0000, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot wrote: I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses back in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed energy when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop and start vehicle I once saw a BBC Christmas lecture by Prof Eric Laithwaite which explored the idea. The biggest issue was safety, the energy stored in the flywheel would have been tremendous and if a failure occured and the flywheel escaped it would have carved "A neat slot" through buildings for miles across the city. That and Gyroscopic precession. If the flywheel was horizontal the bus could turn left or right, but if ever one side of the bus ran into a gutter and the bus tried to rotate the flywheel in the horizontal axis once again absolutely tremendous forces would impinge on the bearings / mountings of the flywheel. but god knows how they arranged the pulley/ gear train to achieve the necessary power transfers. Intuitively I feel sure that could be done magnetically / electrically Derek Next years F1 cars are using a system of this sort I think. |
#33
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
In article ,
wrote: On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:47:06 +0000, Derek Geldard wrote: On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:13:52 -0000, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot wrote: I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses back in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed energy when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop and start vehicle I once saw a BBC Christmas lecture by Prof Eric Laithwaite which explored the idea. The biggest issue was safety, the energy stored in the flywheel would have been tremendous and if a failure occured and the flywheel escaped it would have carved "A neat slot" through buildings for miles across the city. That and Gyroscopic precession. If the flywheel was horizontal the bus could turn left or right, but if ever one side of the bus ran into a gutter and the bus tried to rotate the flywheel in the horizontal axis once again absolutely tremendous forces would impinge on the bearings / mountings of the flywheel. The effect on the handling of a gyroscope is mentioned in this article http://photo.proaktiva.eu/digest/2008_gyrobus.html Not the same as mentioned by Donwill, these were an attempt to have electrically powered buses without the overhead wires required by a Trolleybus. Not too successfully as it turned out but they did run and did not manage to destroy their surroundings. Here in the UK this company seems to have been around promoting Flywheel storage for ages. http://www.parrypeoplemovers.com/ but I don't think any commercial operation has started yet. They tried it in Bistol for a while, but I think it's now closed. A quick google found: http://www.tramdev.clara.net/parrypic.htm Gordon |
#34
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
In article ,
wrote: The effect on the handling of a gyroscope is mentioned in this article http://photo.proaktiva.eu/digest/2008_gyrobus.html Heh, having read that, I find I've lost an hour of my life to searching for wierd gyroscope vehicles on the internet Damn wikipedia... Mind you, how cool/terrifying does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyro_monorail look!? Darren |
#35
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:13:52 -0000, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot
wrote: "Richard Head" wrote in message ... "John Nagelson" wrote in message ... Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a battery bank, and batteries are expensive. So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy? E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of electrical power you need? ?? Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries. John Umm do you have any idea on the weight required. I reckon my average consumption is around 2kW. Lets assume need to store energy for 24 hours supply. Lets assume maximum height available, practically, is 10m. PE = mgh 2kW for 24hrs is 48kWhr 48kWhr = 173MJ Solve for m in equation ----- err 1600 metric tonnes, and that assumes 100% efficiency in recovering the energy. Yep, sounds practical to me! I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses back in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed energy when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop and start vehicle but god knows how they arranged the pulley/ gear train to achieve the necessary power transfers. Interesting though!! Don Swiss http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l-firsts-.html |
#36
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
Alang wrote:
I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses back in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed energy when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop and start vehicle but god knows how they arranged the pulley/ gear train to achieve the necessary power transfers. Interesting though!! Don Swiss http://www.newscientist.com/article/...ywheel-firsts- .html British. Double deckers buses featuring flywheels were manufactured in the 1930s. They featured in the "Modern Wonder" magazine. |
#37
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:03:29 +0000, (Steve Firth)
wrote: Alang wrote: I think the Germans experimented with energy storage systems in buses back in the early 1930s, they used a heavy flywheel system which absorbed energy when breaking and releasing it for accelerating, ideal for a stop and start vehicle but god knows how they arranged the pulley/ gear train to achieve the necessary power transfers. Interesting though!! Don Swiss http://www.newscientist.com/article/...ywheel-firsts- .html British. Double deckers buses featuring flywheels were manufactured in the 1930s. They featured in the "Modern Wonder" magazine. Always thought it was the Swiss. They were the only ones I ever heard of actually running a service. Any links to the British buses on line? |
#38
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
Richard Head wrote:
"John Nagelson" wrote in message ... Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a battery bank, and batteries are expensive. So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy? E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of electrical power you need? ?? Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries. John Umm do you have any idea on the weight required. I reckon my average consumption is around 2kW. Lets assume need to store energy for 24 hours supply. Lets assume maximum height available, practically, is 10m. PE = mgh 2kW for 24hrs is 48kWhr 48kWhr = 173MJ Solve for m in equation ----- err 1600 metric tonnes, and that assumes 100% efficiency in recovering the energy. Yep, sounds practical to me! Tsk! How are we going to achieve anything if people are so negative. Thats only 1.6 million 1 kg bags bags of flour. All you need to do is build such systems next to large bakeries and you have solved two problems in one e.g. energy & storage. -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk |
#39
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
On 7 Dec, 16:33, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote: Richard Head wrote: "John Nagelson" wrote in message .... Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a battery bank, and batteries are expensive. So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy? E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of electrical power you need? ?? Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries. John Umm do you have any idea on the weight required. I reckon my average consumption is around 2kW. Lets assume need to store energy for 24 hours supply. Lets assume maximum height available, practically, is 10m. PE = mgh 2kW for 24hrs is 48kWhr 48kWhr = 173MJ Solve for m in equation ----- err 1600 metric tonnes, and that assumes 100% efficiency in recovering the energy. Yep, sounds practical to me! Tsk! *How are we going to achieve anything if people are so negative. *Thats only 1.6 million 1 kg bags bags of flour. *All you need to do is build such systems next to large bakeries and you have solved two problems in one e.g. energy & storage. -- Dave - The Medway Handymanwww.medwayhandyman.co.uk Hmm - that 'll be same flour as in your 'flour essence' lights then; seems then that bags of milled wheat might be the solution to our lighting then ! Rob |
#40
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Storing wind-generated energy as gravitational potential energy?
"John Nagelson" wrote in message ... Not so great with wind-generated energy is the fact that you need a battery bank, and batteries are expensive. So why not store the energy as gravitational potential energy? E.g. make the generated energy lift a large weight, controlled in such a way that it falls when you need it to, yielding just the amount of electrical power you need? ?? Parts would need replacing far less often than batteries. John OK lets run with it. Suppose you could build a machine that could lift a 100 ton weight 10 metres with 100% efficiency. Suppose you could then recover that energy with 100% efficiency. The "potential energy" once it is fully lifted would be: m * g * h = approx 10 Megajoules = under 3 kilowatt hours. A typical home probably uses at least 3000 kwh per year. A 100 ton weight would mean about a 4.7 metre cube of concrete. Something in the back of my head says this is not practical. D |
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