I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and decant it into
those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. I've Googled, read the
Wiki and had some good practical advice from that nice Adam Wadsworth bloke.

However, fault finding is an embuggerance. As if getting those bloody
chrome plastic diffusers in & out wasn't bad enough.

As far as I can see there are three possible failure points; the tube, the
starter or the ballast. OK, four if a bad connection is there, but lets
assume it isn't.

To avoid confusion; by tube I mean the glass bit that lights up, by starter
I mean the little plastic can thingy with two prongs and by ballast I meant
a boxy thing with wires going in & out.

For example today. 18 fittings in suspended ceiling each with 4 x 2' x 18w
tubes, each tube with a starter and each fitting with 2 Tridonic EC40 A54
ballasts. 12 were fine, but on 6 fittings, either the two inner tubes were
out, or the two outer tubes were out.

All were in this state, no 3 working, 1 not. No 2 this end working, 2 the
other end not working. Either 2 inner or 2 outer. No flickering, either on
or not.

I did notice in each case that one of the ballasts was warm & the other
stone cold. Is that because its failed or because its OK but not powering
anything?

Is there a simple fault finding technique?

I don't think you can test a tube with a multi meter? Can you test a
starter? Or a ballast?

In some fittings with larger tubes you sometimes get flickering or just the
ends lighting up. Is this tube or starter?

I could adopt the 'change everything and its bound to work' method - which
seems quite common, but its wasteful to replace a good tube/starter when the
cause was something else.

Could I build a simple test rig for example? Any books, web sites that
would help?

Any help much appreciated.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Medway Handyman wrote:

18 fittings in suspended ceiling each with 4 x 2' x 18w
tubes, each tube with a starter and each fitting with 2 Tridonic EC40 A54
ballasts. 12 were fine, but on 6 fittings, either the two inner tubes were
out, or the two outer tubes were out.

If you wanted to avoid the "replace everything that isn't working"
syndrome, you did have 24 known good ballasts, and 48 known good tubes
and starters on hand to play swapsies with, to eliminate what else was bad.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
. ..
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and decant it
into those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. I've Googled, read
the Wiki and had some good practical advice from that nice Adam Wadsworth
bloke.

I suggest you call a qulified electrician. Why would anyone running a
company keep asking
what to do all the time? Are you not qualified? How long will it be before
we see you on
Rogue Traders?

Ian Vandahl wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message . ..
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and decant
it into those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. I've
Googled, read the Wiki and had some good practical advice from that
nice Adam Wadsworth bloke.

I suggest you call a qulified electrician. Why would anyone running a
company keep asking
what to do all the time? Are you not qualified? How long will it be
before we see you on
Rogue Traders?

Maybe because he didn't come out of the womb being an insufferable know-all?

Tim

The Medway Handyman brought next idea :
All were in this state, no 3 working, 1 not. No 2 this end working, 2 the
other end not working. Either 2 inner or 2 outer. No flickering, either on
or not.

I did notice in each case that one of the ballasts was warm & the other stone
cold. Is that because its failed or because its OK but not powering
anything?

Is there a simple fault finding technique?

Flickering, or simply glowing at the ends-

If tube is blackened at the ends, change it.
If it still flickers or just glows, swap the starter. Simply
turning the starter in its socket can reproduce the effect of a good
starter and make it strike, then it can stay lit with the starter
removed. An O/C starter might make the light appear to not have a
supply.

No sign of any life, not the lamp o/c or starter o/c, then check the
supply and or internal fuse.

Finally if none of the above helps, think new choke/ballast. These have
two failure modes - going o/c or s/c (often with signs of over heating)

95 times out of 100 it will be tube or starter, or both at fault.

Some of the more expensive starters have a built in trip button, which
trips out if the lamps fails to start within a few attempts - this
protects the tube, starter and to some extent the ballast.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

95 times out of 100 it will be tube or starter, or both at fault.

No-one's mentioned the lampholders, a common cause of open-circuit
faults, IME.

--
Andy

The Medway Handyman wrote:
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and decant it into
those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. I've Googled, read the
Wiki and had some good practical advice from that nice Adam Wadsworth bloke.

However, fault finding is an embuggerance. As if getting those bloody
chrome plastic diffusers in & out wasn't bad enough.

As far as I can see there are three possible failure points; the tube, the
starter or the ballast. OK, four if a bad connection is there, but lets
assume it isn't.

To avoid confusion; by tube I mean the glass bit that lights up, by starter
I mean the little plastic can thingy with two prongs and by ballast I meant
a boxy thing with wires going in & out.

For example today. 18 fittings in suspended ceiling each with 4 x 2' x 18w
tubes, each tube with a starter and each fitting with 2 Tridonic EC40 A54
ballasts. 12 were fine, but on 6 fittings, either the two inner tubes were
out, or the two outer tubes were out.

All were in this state, no 3 working, 1 not. No 2 this end working, 2 the
other end not working. Either 2 inner or 2 outer. No flickering, either on
or not.

I did notice in each case that one of the ballasts was warm & the other
stone cold. Is that because its failed or because its OK but not powering
anything?

Is there a simple fault finding technique?

I don't think you can test a tube with a multi meter? Can you test a
starter? Or a ballast?

In some fittings with larger tubes you sometimes get flickering or just the
ends lighting up. Is this tube or starter?

I could adopt the 'change everything and its bound to work' method - which
seems quite common, but its wasteful to replace a good tube/starter when the
cause was something else.

Could I build a simple test rig for example? Any books, web sites that
would help?

Any help much appreciated.



Don't forget that, at least sometimes, people find the lighting too
strong (or maybe they notice flickering) and choose to switch off some
of the tubes by rotating them a bit.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Tim Downie wrote:
Ian Vandahl wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message . ..
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and decant
it into those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. I've
Googled, read the Wiki and had some good practical advice from that
nice Adam Wadsworth bloke.

I suggest you call a qulified electrician. Why would anyone running a
company keep asking
what to do all the time? Are you not qualified? How long will it be
before we see you on
Rogue Traders?

Maybe because he didn't come out of the womb being an insufferable know-all?

Tim


but taking on paid jobs you know F---- all about is what rogue traders
is all about isn't it?

--
Kevin R
Reply address works

Hi
Nothing is ever as simple as it seems ,but the theory is the same.
In order to get the tube to light you must first ionise the gas inside so
that it will conduct electricity and generate light.
This is done by applying a high voltage spike across the tube and heating
the gas.
(nb there are other ways but simple explanations that everyone can
comprehend seem the norm)
Wiring was simple in the early days...
Live to choke (basically a large coil of wire) from choke to one end of tube
(any pin) other pin to starter ,(a bi metal switch) from starter to second
end of tube (any pin) from second pin to neutral.
The tube ends are actually heater elements inside the tube so when power is
applied current flows through the choke ,heater end 1 through the starter
then heater end 2 back to neutral.As the starter draws current it heats up
and its contacts spring apart causing a high voltage back emf in the choke,
this (hopefully) ionises the tube and you get light. As the current now
flows through the tube the starter and heaters are no longer powered.
FF 2008 regulations demanded PF correction so capacitors were added also
quick start ballast units were designed using high frequency ,compound
ballast units were designed which controlled the heaters and starting
currents.
Welcome to the minefield of modern lighting.
Most cheep quad packs are starter controlled but share a common ballast so 2
tubes are driven by 1 ballast others even have a std choke again driving 2
tubes in series.
If 2 lamps are out simplest way is swapsy ,swap out the 2 bad with the 2
good .if 1 is flickering check its starter (if each tube has its own)
If the tube is lit at both ends the heaters are ok check the starter (remove
it and the tube should flash or even light) .
IME the most common fault is worn tubes ,nothing lasts forever and these
units are typically on constantly ,another common fault is (sorry TMH)
people fitting wrong tubes, starters causing ballast unit or chokes to
overheat and burn out.

HTH
CJ

Ian Vandahl wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message . ..
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and decant
it into those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. I've
Googled, read the Wiki and had some good practical advice from that
nice Adam Wadsworth bloke.

I suggest you call a qulified electrician. Why would anyone running a
company keep asking
what to do all the time? Are you not qualified? How long will it be
before we see you on
Rogue Traders?

And your valued ( or qulified) contribution to this group would be?

****wit.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In article ,
"The Medway Handyman" writes:
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and decant it into
those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. I've Googled, read the
Wiki and had some good practical advice from that nice Adam Wadsworth bloke.

Be careful to ignore any pages which talk about US fluorescent
fittings. They mostly work significantly differently due to their
low mains voltage.

chrome plastic diffusers in & out wasn't bad enough.

As far as I can see there are three possible failure points; the tube, the
starter or the ballast. OK, four if a bad connection is there, but lets
assume it isn't.

To avoid confusion; by tube I mean the glass bit that lights up, by starter
I mean the little plastic can thingy with two prongs and by ballast I meant
a boxy thing with wires going in & out.

For example today. 18 fittings in suspended ceiling each with 4 x 2' x 18w
tubes, each tube with a starter and each fitting with 2 Tridonic EC40 A54
ballasts. 12 were fine, but on 6 fittings, either the two inner tubes were
out, or the two outer tubes were out.

All were in this state, no 3 working, 1 not. No 2 this end working, 2 the
other end not working. Either 2 inner or 2 outer. No flickering, either on
or not.

With these 2' tubes, two are run in series, so some types of
failure (but not all) will result in two tubes going out.

I did notice in each case that one of the ballasts was warm & the other
stone cold. Is that because its failed or because its OK but not powering
anything?

These are probably 50Hz series inductor ballasts (just 2 connections),
and IME, failure of these is extemely rare. The last two cases I've
come across were the result of water leaking in to them. They don't
wear out, for all practical purposes. (Note that if you look at a US
website, you'll see that they are a common cause of failure over there.)

Is there a simple fault finding technique?

I don't think you can test a tube with a multi meter? Can you test a
starter? Or a ballast?

Forget the ballast. You could do a partial test with a multi-meter,
but like I said, they don't fail.

Tubes and starters are most easily tested by substitution with
known working ones.

In some fittings with larger tubes you sometimes get flickering or just the
ends lighting up. Is this tube or starter?

Flashing on and off is nearly always a dead tube, and is usually
accompanied by dark rings or blotches at the tube ends.
A tube end glowing orange (rather than white) is also a dead tube.

Tube ends lit continuously and not flashing is a shorted-out starter.
The tube may also be dead, and having been left in place dead, has
killed the starter too. If the tube isn't dead, then the tube will
light up as the starter is removed.

A starter can also fail open-circuit, in which case the tube won't
even try to start.

With the 2' series pairs, a failure in one tube or starter will
often leave the other one off too, which can make diagnosis harder.

Tubes fail more often than starters, and usually end up with the
black shadows at the tube ends, so homing in on such tubes first
is probably your best plan.

I could adopt the 'change everything and its bound to work' method - which
seems quite common, but its wasteful to replace a good tube/starter when the
cause was something else.

Could I build a simple test rig for example? Any books, web sites that
would help?

You've got 12 working test rigs in the ceiling;-)

When you replace starters, make sure you use the right ones. The
2' series pairs need a special starter designed for them.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Kevin wrote:
Tim Downie wrote:
Ian Vandahl wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message . ..
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and
decant it into those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. I've
Googled, read the Wiki and had some good practical advice
from that nice Adam Wadsworth bloke.

I suggest you call a qulified electrician. Why would anyone
running a company keep asking
what to do all the time? Are you not qualified? How long will it
be before we see you on
Rogue Traders?

Maybe because he didn't come out of the womb being an insufferable
know-all? Tim


but taking on paid jobs you know F---- all about is what rogue traders
is all about isn't it?

As a matter of fact, no it isn't. Rogue traders is about people
deliberately conning the public. Since I'm audited & accredited by Trading
Standards and fully CRB checked with £2 million worth of public liability
insurance that wouldn't apply.

If you think that asking people more knowledgeable than you if there is a
better way of doing a job is a problem, then you have lost the plot.

As I mentioned, I could adopt the standard 'change everything until it
works' ploy. Thats what everyone else seems to do. I choose to try & find
out more about the subject so I can offer a better service.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"The Medway Handyman" writes:
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and decant
it into those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. I've
Googled, read the Wiki and had some good practical advice from that
nice Adam Wadsworth bloke.

Be careful to ignore any pages which talk about US fluorescent
fittings. They mostly work significantly differently due to their
low mains voltage.

chrome plastic diffusers in & out wasn't bad enough.

As far as I can see there are three possible failure points; the
tube, the starter or the ballast. OK, four if a bad connection is
there, but lets assume it isn't.

To avoid confusion; by tube I mean the glass bit that lights up, by
starter I mean the little plastic can thingy with two prongs and by
ballast I meant a boxy thing with wires going in & out.

For example today. 18 fittings in suspended ceiling each with 4 x
2' x 18w tubes, each tube with a starter and each fitting with 2
Tridonic EC40 A54 ballasts. 12 were fine, but on 6 fittings, either
the two inner tubes were out, or the two outer tubes were out.

All were in this state, no 3 working, 1 not. No 2 this end working,
2 the other end not working. Either 2 inner or 2 outer. No
flickering, either on or not.

With these 2' tubes, two are run in series, so some types of
failure (but not all) will result in two tubes going out.

I did notice in each case that one of the ballasts was warm & the
other stone cold. Is that because its failed or because its OK but
not powering anything?

These are probably 50Hz series inductor ballasts (just 2 connections),
and IME, failure of these is extemely rare. The last two cases I've
come across were the result of water leaking in to them. They don't
wear out, for all practical purposes. (Note that if you look at a US
website, you'll see that they are a common cause of failure over
there.)

Is there a simple fault finding technique?

I don't think you can test a tube with a multi meter? Can you test a
starter? Or a ballast?

Forget the ballast. You could do a partial test with a multi-meter,
but like I said, they don't fail.

Tubes and starters are most easily tested by substitution with
known working ones.

In some fittings with larger tubes you sometimes get flickering or
just the ends lighting up. Is this tube or starter?

Flashing on and off is nearly always a dead tube, and is usually
accompanied by dark rings or blotches at the tube ends.
A tube end glowing orange (rather than white) is also a dead tube.

Tube ends lit continuously and not flashing is a shorted-out starter.
The tube may also be dead, and having been left in place dead, has
killed the starter too. If the tube isn't dead, then the tube will
light up as the starter is removed.

A starter can also fail open-circuit, in which case the tube won't
even try to start.

With the 2' series pairs, a failure in one tube or starter will
often leave the other one off too, which can make diagnosis harder.

Tubes fail more often than starters, and usually end up with the
black shadows at the tube ends, so homing in on such tubes first
is probably your best plan.

I could adopt the 'change everything and its bound to work' method -
which seems quite common, but its wasteful to replace a good
tube/starter when the cause was something else.

Could I build a simple test rig for example? Any books, web sites
that would help?

You've got 12 working test rigs in the ceiling;-)

When you replace starters, make sure you use the right ones. The
2' series pairs need a special starter designed for them.

Thanks for all that Andrew.

The client had a part box of starters, of unkown provenace. I went to the
local PTS with a sample of the existing starter and bought a box of what the
invoice says are " 155/500 starter 4/65w (fsu)".

If you have a link to the correct starter (assuming they aren't) I'd
appreciate it.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In article ,
"cj" writes:
and its contacts spring apart causing a high voltage back emf in the choke,
this (hopefully) ionises the tube and you get light. As the current now

Actually, the tube striking voltage for all tubes is below mains
voltage providing the heaters have been heated hot enough for
thermonic emission, so no back-emf is needed. Indeed, this can
cause the tube to strike prematurely before filaments have been
heated enough.

This isn't true in the US though with lower mains voltage, but
trying to strike the tube using back-emf from the ballast isn't
reliable enough to be viable and they use other techniques.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
"The Medway Handyman" writes:

Thanks for all that Andrew.

The client had a part box of starters, of unkown provenace. I went to the
local PTS with a sample of the existing starter and bought a box of what the
invoice says are " 155/500 starter 4/65w (fsu)".

If you have a link to the correct starter (assuming they aren't) I'd
appreciate it.

They aren't correct for the series pair tubes.

You want 155/200 for series pair operation of 18W tubes (or
anything labelled as suitable for 4-20W tubes on 120V supplies).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Kevin wrote:
Tim Downie wrote:
Ian Vandahl wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message . ..
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and
decant it into those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me.
I've Googled, read the Wiki and had some good practical advice
from that nice Adam Wadsworth bloke.

I suggest you call a qulified electrician. Why would anyone
running a company keep asking
what to do all the time? Are you not qualified? How long will it
be before we see you on
Rogue Traders?

Maybe because he didn't come out of the womb being an insufferable
know-all? Tim


but taking on paid jobs you know F---- all about is what rogue
traders is all about isn't it?

As a matter of fact, no it isn't. Rogue traders is about people
deliberately conning the public. Since I'm audited & accredited by
Trading Standards and fully CRB checked with £2 million worth of
public liability insurance that wouldn't apply.

I suspect that some with roguish intent, or later had roguish intent,
would/could do this. I am most definitely not applying this to you though.

CRB is required and an utter joke, sadly.

If you think that asking people more knowledgeable than you if there
is a better way of doing a job is a problem, then you have lost the
plot.

Wholly agree.

As I mentioned, I could adopt the standard 'change everything until it
works' ploy. Thats what everyone else seems to do. I choose to try
& find out more about the subject so I can offer a better service.

I appreciate that commendable view and it is evident in your posts.

Clot

Ian Vandahl wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
. ..
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and decant it
into those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. I've Googled, read
the Wiki and had some good practical advice from that nice Adam Wadsworth
bloke.

I suggest you call a qulified electrician. Why would anyone running a
company keep asking
what to do all the time?

Because that is the sensible thing to do to avoid making mistakes all
the time. Remember if you are trading then its your duty of care to
learn about what you need to know to do the job safely.

Are you not qualified?

What qualification would you suggest?

How long will it be before
we see you on

Given that Dave has a cautious approach and asks questions before
leaping in, I would hazard never.

Now why not have a stab at answering the question - if you know of course.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Andy Wade wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

95 times out of 100 it will be tube or starter, or both at fault.

No-one's mentioned the lampholders, a common cause of open-circuit
faults, IME.

Yup, I would concur with that. My first diagnostic would usually be
establish what type of tube fitting it is (sprung end, or the posher
sort with insert and twist functionality) and tweak appropriately to
make sure there is good contact. The check the starter - remove and
reseat. If that fails swap the starter for a new one, and if that fails
go back to the original one and suspect the tube.

If you have working and non working examples, then further investigation
can be done checking the tube in place of a working one.

Only if all those fail would it be time to start looking at internal
connections or ballasts. IME ballasts don't fail often in big tube
lights - although they seem more fragile on the small under cupboard type.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Ian Vandahl"
saying something like:

I suggest you call a qulified electrician. Why would anyone running a
company keep asking
what to do all the time? Are you not qualified? How long will it be before
we see you on
Rogue Traders?

It's that arsehole Beale, again.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
. ..
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and decant it
into
those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. I've Googled, read the
Wiki and had some good practical advice from that nice Adam Wadsworth
bloke.

However, fault finding is an embuggerance. As if getting those bloody
chrome plastic diffusers in & out wasn't bad enough.

snipped

Dave - The Medway Handyman


Have a look through these pages
http://home.howstuffworks.com/fluorescent-lamp.htm This is a US site, but
the principal of the fluorescent lighting is the same. It shows the
different parts and how they fit together in the housing. It gives a good
example of where faults can occur once you know what works where and how.

The fittings you are working on are probably two lamps in series from one
ballast. That's why two lamps are out at the same time, and it's common to
have the two inner lamps and two outer lamps wired in together with each
other, purely because it's easier for the people who assemble them to
remember where everything goes.

Do the fittings have just two starters? If they do, then the starter could
be open circuit (O/C) fault, with the striker bar heated passed its sell by
date. This is a common fault, and would be the first thing I'd check by
using a known working starter.

Make sure you use the correct starter for the fitting. Most multi-lamp
luminaries have specific starter voltages and power ratings, because of the
two lamps in series wiring configuration, so check the ballast text for the
correct ones to use.

I haven't read through the whole thread, so I'm probably going over
everything that has been said before, but thought I'd jump in with a link to
the "How Stuff Works" site to show you, well yes, how they work. :-)
You'll have them fixed later today with all the information you got in this
thread, won't you?

Have fun.

"Ian Vandahl" wrote in message
...

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
. ..
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and decant it
into those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. I've Googled,
read
the Wiki and had some good practical advice from that nice Adam Wadsworth
bloke.

I suggest you call a qulified electrician. Why would anyone running a
company keep asking
what to do all the time? Are you not qualified? How long will it be
before
we see you on
Rogue Traders?


Ho Ho Ho !!!!! Merry Christmas to you too !!!!!

With a surname like Vandahl, you must own a demolition business, am I right?
:-) I'm assuming, aren't I ? And I think that's what you are doing also.
Dave (The Medway Handyman) is a perfectly competent person when it comes to
any type of job. He has a brain that learns things (especially the
mistakes. Sorry David. Hee Hee), and isn't afraid to ask when he is not
sure. That is the type of person I would like doing work for me, wouldn't
you?

He is worth his weight in gold for all those projects he is asked to carry
out. He is always asked to carry out these works, because people trust him
and recommend him to others. If he needs to know the basics, then he finds
out what all the basics are and does the job with confidence and competence.
He learned it first and done it after. Which is what you should do, instead
of assuming.

Dave, on Rogue Traders? He must be helping to catch one of them, for sure.

Kevin wrote:
Tim Downie wrote:
Ian Vandahl wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message . ..
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and decant
it into those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. I've
Googled, read the Wiki and had some good practical advice from that
nice Adam Wadsworth bloke.

I suggest you call a qulified electrician. Why would anyone running a
company keep asking
what to do all the time? Are you not qualified? How long will it be
before we see you on
Rogue Traders?

Maybe because he didn't come out of the womb being an insufferable
know-all?

Tim

but taking on paid jobs you know F---- all about is what rogue traders
is all about isn't it?


That's what they said about the whole of NASA.

Ive been paid to do things I didn't know how to do for all my life.
because no one knew how to do them either, and they reckoned it was
easier to pay me to work it out than be bothered themselves.

What are you n?

Oh. ten years of Nu Laber,where theres a rule and a training course for
everything, and stupidity and ignorance are encouraged, and anyone
bothering to learn anything is elitist.

Mate. Get one of your fitments down.
Then remove all teh tubes, and all teh starters. Put the fitment o with
a good new starter and try every tube in it. Throw away teh ones that
don't work and replace with new.
Then do the same fr all the staters.

Right, you now have good starters and tubes, Refit the lot, until
something doesn't work, Mark those units with red stickers, and move on.

When the office is more or less up to speed and has lights, go back and
check out the ones that don't work, replacing ballasts or checking wires
as needed.

Fittings are usually not expensive and consider simply replacing about
half the duds with new, and taking the old ones way and swapping bits
till they work.

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"The Medway Handyman" writes:

Thanks for all that Andrew.

The client had a part box of starters, of unkown provenace. I went
to the local PTS with a sample of the existing starter and bought a
box of what the invoice says are " 155/500 starter 4/65w (fsu)".

If you have a link to the correct starter (assuming they aren't) I'd
appreciate it.

They aren't correct for the series pair tubes.

You want 155/200 for series pair operation of 18W tubes (or
anything labelled as suitable for 4-20W tubes on 120V supplies).

Thanks again. That sounds like the cause of the problem. I took one of the
old starters to PTS & asked for a box of the same, so either the old
starters are wrong or PTS supplied the wrong ones.

IIRC the old starters had FSU or SSU printed on them. Looking at the TLC
site I think I need BG FS2's described as "Universal Series Starter for
fluorescent fittings with tubes between 4watts and 22watts".


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Medway Handyman brought next idea :
All were in this state, no 3 working, 1 not. No 2 this end working,
2 the other end not working. Either 2 inner or 2 outer. No
flickering, either on or not.

I did notice in each case that one of the ballasts was warm & the
other stone cold. Is that because its failed or because its OK but
not powering anything?

Is there a simple fault finding technique?

Flickering, or simply glowing at the ends-

If tube is blackened at the ends, change it.
If it still flickers or just glows, swap the starter. Simply
turning the starter in its socket can reproduce the effect of a good
starter and make it strike, then it can stay lit with the starter
removed. An O/C starter might make the light appear to not have a
supply.

No sign of any life, not the lamp o/c or starter o/c, then check the
supply and or internal fuse.

Finally if none of the above helps, think new choke/ballast. These
have two failure modes - going o/c or s/c (often with signs of over
heating)
95 times out of 100 it will be tube or starter, or both at fault.

Some of the more expensive starters have a built in trip button, which
trips out if the lamps fails to start within a few attempts - this
protects the tube, starter and to some extent the ballast.

Thanks Harry, I'm going to print that out.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Thu, 04 Dec 2008 08:38:25 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:


Thanks

No, thank you, you really do get some interesting threads going! :-)

--
The Wanderer

Wine Improves with age. The older I get the better it tastes!

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
. ..

I will throw in my 2p too...

Start by replacing all the tubes.. it sounds like some of them are very old
and they won't last much longer and the new ones will look odd. They don't
cost much.

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
. ..


Is there a simple fault finding technique?

Couldn't ypu just have a known working one of each and put a gold star
on them or something.


I don't think you can test a tube with a multi meter? Can you test a
starter? Or a ballast?

I'd working ones and non working ones and use a meter to see if I could see
the difference between the resistances.


In some fittings with larger tubes you sometimes get flickering or just
the ends lighting up. Is this tube or starter?

I've only experienced with a few tubes as we get a man in to replace them,
so
far they have just replaced the tubes, you can see a darker band at the end
of the tube.

I could adopt the 'change everything and its bound to work' method - which
seems quite common, but its wasteful to replace a good tube/starter when
the cause was something else.

The theory there is that within a few weeks the other tubes are likely to go
(if they have the same life expectancy and been on for a similar time)
and you'll need to get the man back in just to replace anothe rone every
few weeks.
So replace them all so they al fail about the same time, so you'll only need
to get the man
in once a year or so rather than every once the replace a tube or two.


Could I build a simple test rig for example? Any books, web sites that
would help?

Any help much appreciated.

I did a google search

http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/i.../inffluor.html

the site sounds more like a self-help sex aid.

In article ,
"The Medway Handyman" writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"The Medway Handyman" writes:

Thanks for all that Andrew.

The client had a part box of starters, of unkown provenace. I went
to the local PTS with a sample of the existing starter and bought a
box of what the invoice says are " 155/500 starter 4/65w (fsu)".

If you have a link to the correct starter (assuming they aren't) I'd
appreciate it.

They aren't correct for the series pair tubes.

You want 155/200 for series pair operation of 18W tubes (or
anything labelled as suitable for 4-20W tubes on 120V supplies).

Thanks again. That sounds like the cause of the problem. I took one of the
old starters to PTS & asked for a box of the same, so either the old
starters are wrong or PTS supplied the wrong ones.

IIRC the old starters had FSU or SSU printed on them. Looking at the TLC
site I think I need BG FS2's described as "Universal Series Starter for
fluorescent fittings with tubes between 4watts and 22watts".

Their description is useless (verging on the misleading), but the
picture of the starter looks to be the right thing.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and decant it into
those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. *

Me too. Once they starting talking of shortening and the like.

I did notice in each case that one of the ballasts was warm & the other
stone cold.

Ah. You don't want cold. Buggers up the yeast.

Is there a simple fault finding technique?

The tongue test will always tell if the juices are flowing.

I don't think you can test a tube with a multi meter? *

You can check for too many or too few currants.

Could I build a simple test rig for example? *Any books, web sites that
would help?

Mrs Beeton?

On 4 Dec, 10:46, "dennis@home" wrote:

Start by replacing all the tubes.

Assuming that the installation is old and a number of tubes have
failed, the likelihood is that some of the other tubes are actually
quite new, having been replaced earlier. Unless you _know_ that all
tubes are old, this is likely to be a wasteful strategy.

It may of course have a place, if you're putting cheap tubes in with a
hired cherry picker. Some places cost serious money just to re-visit.

On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 23:54:59 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

Kevin wrote:
Tim Downie wrote:
Ian Vandahl wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message . ..
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and
decant it into those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. I've
Googled, read the Wiki and had some good practical advice
from that nice Adam Wadsworth bloke.

I suggest you call a qulified electrician. Why would anyone
running a company keep asking
what to do all the time? Are you not qualified? How long will it
be before we see you on
Rogue Traders?

Maybe because he didn't come out of the womb being an insufferable
know-all? Tim


but taking on paid jobs you know F---- all about is what rogue traders
is all about isn't it?

As a matter of fact, no it isn't. Rogue traders is about people
deliberately conning the public. Since I'm audited & accredited by Trading
Standards and fully CRB checked with £2 million worth of public liability
insurance that wouldn't apply.

If you think that asking people more knowledgeable than you if there is a
better way of doing a job is a problem, then you have lost the plot.

As I mentioned, I could adopt the standard 'change everything until it
works' ploy. Thats what everyone else seems to do. I choose to try & find
out more about the subject so I can offer a better service.

It isn't change everything till it works ploy. Component substitution
is a tried and tested *safe* method of fault finding. Check there is
power to the unit. Switch off. Substitute a good unit in the order
they are most likely to fail, test, and replace the old unit if that
is not the problem. I spent many years as a youth doing the lighting
maintenance and found that was the only way to do it easily and
safely. Sticking meter probes into a live light fitting up a ladder is
really a nono and should be reserved for bench testing where you are
less likely to fall over and break a neck if something flashes.

The Wanderer wrote:
On Thu, 04 Dec 2008 08:38:25 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:


Thanks

No, thank you, you really do get some interesting threads going! :-)

Ta. I think this is one of the things the 'Mr Negative' people don't
understand. If I ask a question it's likely that others may learn from it
as well, even if the knowledge isn't immediately used.

I read the Q & A's about subjects I have no interest in and am never likely
to do. But you learn a bit here and there.

It also means the answers go into the archive for future reference.

Maybe a fault finding chart for the Wiki would be a good idea? We have
enough good quality input.

I'm of the opinion that the only stupid question is the one you didn't ask.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Kevin wrote:
Tim Downie wrote:
Ian Vandahl wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message . ..
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and decant
it into those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses me. I've
Googled, read the Wiki and had some good practical advice from that
nice Adam Wadsworth bloke.

I suggest you call a qulified electrician. Why would anyone running a
company keep asking
what to do all the time? Are you not qualified? How long will it be
before we see you on
Rogue Traders?

Maybe because he didn't come out of the womb being an insufferable
know-all?

Tim

but taking on paid jobs you know F---- all about is what rogue traders
is all about isn't it?


That's what they said about the whole of NASA.

Ive been paid to do things I didn't know how to do for all my life.
because no one knew how to do them either, and they reckoned it was
easier to pay me to work it out than be bothered themselves.

its not bloody rocket science to fault find a item with three components
,especially when you have working ones to use as test rigs,
but then again I would not ask a MFI fitter to fix my lights
What are you n?

Oh. ten years of Nu Laber,where theres a rule and a training course for
everything, and stupidity and ignorance are encouraged, and anyone
bothering to learn anything is elitist.
its not elitist to expect someone being paid to work as an electrician
to actually know about electricity or have I missed something?



--
Kevin R
Reply address works

Kevin wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Kevin wrote:
Tim Downie wrote:
Ian Vandahl wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message . ..
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and
decant it into those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses
me. I've Googled, read the Wiki and had some good practical
advice from that nice Adam Wadsworth bloke.

I suggest you call a qulified electrician. Why would anyone
running a company keep asking
what to do all the time? Are you not qualified? How long will
it be before we see you on
Rogue Traders?

Maybe because he didn't come out of the womb being an insufferable
know-all?

Tim

but taking on paid jobs you know F---- all about is what rogue
traders is all about isn't it?


That's what they said about the whole of NASA.

Ive been paid to do things I didn't know how to do for all my life.
because no one knew how to do them either, and they reckoned it was
easier to pay me to work it out than be bothered themselves.

its not bloody rocket science to fault find a item with three
components ,especially when you have working ones to use as test
rigs, but then again I would not ask a MFI fitter to fix my lights

Who is an MFI fitter?

What are you n?

Oh. ten years of Nu Laber,where theres a rule and a training course
for everything, and stupidity and ignorance are encouraged, and
anyone bothering to learn anything is elitist.

its not elitist to expect someone being paid to work as an electrician
to actually know about electricity or have I missed something?

You miss the point as usual. If you look in Yellow Pages for 'Qualified
Light Bulb Changers' you won't find much. If you ring several of the many
electricians listed you will be bloody lucky to find one who would come out
& change a few tubes at any price.

And of course the electrician, if you found one who would come out, wouldn't
be able to fit 4 new toilet seats, a new flush handle, fix a leak on a sink,
put up 2 new drywipe boards and fix a lock that was playing up - all for one
simple hourly rate.

So where does that leave the customer smart arse?



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Medway Handyman coughed up some electrons that declared:

The Wanderer wrote:
On Thu, 04 Dec 2008 08:38:25 GMT, The Medway Handyman wrote:


Thanks

No, thank you, you really do get some interesting threads going! :-)

Ta. I think this is one of the things the 'Mr Negative' people don't
understand. If I ask a question it's likely that others may learn from it
as well, even if the knowledge isn't immediately used.

I read the Q & A's about subjects I have no interest in and am never
likely
to do. But you learn a bit here and there.

It also means the answers go into the archive for future reference.

Maybe a fault finding chart for the Wiki would be a good idea? We have
enough good quality input.

I'm of the opinion that the only stupid question is the one you didn't
ask.


I respect a professional who admits what he doesn't know; like the doctor
down A&E when our daughter had an anaphalactic turn due to nut allergy. He
said he wasn't comfortable trying to insert a drip into a 3 year old, so he
called for the anaesthetist who had more experience.

That's a doctor, albeit young, but with the usual lots of years at med
school, rigorous professional registration etc.

I think, given the comparison, Dave's allowed to not know everything...


Cheers

Tim

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Kevin wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Kevin wrote:
Tim Downie wrote:
Ian Vandahl wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message . ..
I understand how they distil the essence out of the flour and
decant it into those glass tubes, but the rest of it confuses
me. I've Googled, read the Wiki and had some good practical
advice from that nice Adam Wadsworth bloke.

I suggest you call a qulified electrician. Why would anyone
running a company keep asking
what to do all the time? Are you not qualified? How long will
it be before we see you on
Rogue Traders?
Maybe because he didn't come out of the womb being an insufferable
know-all?

Tim

but taking on paid jobs you know F---- all about is what rogue
traders is all about isn't it?

That's what they said about the whole of NASA.

Ive been paid to do things I didn't know how to do for all my life.
because no one knew how to do them either, and they reckoned it was
easier to pay me to work it out than be bothered themselves.

its not bloody rocket science to fault find a item with three
components ,especially when you have working ones to use as test
rigs, but then again I would not ask a MFI fitter to fix my lights

Who is an MFI fitter?

What are you n?

Oh. ten years of Nu Laber,where theres a rule and a training course
for everything, and stupidity and ignorance are encouraged, and
anyone bothering to learn anything is elitist.

its not elitist to expect someone being paid to work as an electrician
to actually know about electricity or have I missed something?

You miss the point as usual. If you look in Yellow Pages for 'Qualified
Light Bulb Changers' you won't find much. If you ring several of the many
electricians listed you will be bloody lucky to find one who would come out
& change a few tubes at any price.

And of course the electrician, if you found one who would come out, wouldn't
be able to fit 4 new toilet seats, a new flush handle, fix a leak on a sink,
put up 2 new drywipe boards and fix a lock that was playing up - all for one
simple hourly rate.

So where does that leave the customer smart arse?



with some one who cant fix his lights
PS what skill is involved with any of your answers I could do all the
above and fix the lights and so could any decent electrician

--
Kevin R
Reply address works

Kevin wrote:

its not elitist to expect someone being paid to work as an
electrician to actually know about electricity or have I missed
something?

You miss the point as usual. If you look in Yellow Pages for
'Qualified Light Bulb Changers' you won't find much. If you ring
several of the many electricians listed you will be bloody lucky to
find one who would come out & change a few tubes at any price.

And of course the electrician, if you found one who would come out,
wouldn't be able to fit 4 new toilet seats, a new flush handle, fix
a leak on a sink, put up 2 new drywipe boards and fix a lock that
was playing up - all for one simple hourly rate.

So where does that leave the customer smart arse?



with some one who cant fix his lights

No, with someone who is going to check out why the lights don't work and
resolve the problem properly.

PS what skill is involved with any of your answers I could do all the
above and fix the lights and so could any decent electrician

No skill required, but you miss the point yet again. An electrician 'could'
do all the above, but you would be bloody lucky to find one who would sort
the lights, let alone anything else. And of course at an hourly rate much
higher than mine.

Its called a niche market.

If you are so smart & know absolutely everything I suggest you start a
handyman business like mine. Someone as clever as you would make millions.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

IME ballasts don't fail often in big tube lights - although they seem
more fragile on the small under cupboard type.


We have many, many, many fl. lights at work, and we have tube / starter
failures all the time.

We have also had occasional ballast failures, but these have always
presented as 'hot' smell, then 'very hot smell', then 'circuit breaker trips
when / shortly after the lights are switched on'.

Removing the diffuser and having a look shows the ballast as severely
discoloured ( and probably still very hot to touch ).

--
Ron

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Kevin wrote:

its not elitist to expect someone being paid to work as an
electrician to actually know about electricity or have I missed
something?
You miss the point as usual. If you look in Yellow Pages for
'Qualified Light Bulb Changers' you won't find much. If you ring
several of the many electricians listed you will be bloody lucky to
find one who would come out & change a few tubes at any price.

And of course the electrician, if you found one who would come out,
wouldn't be able to fit 4 new toilet seats, a new flush handle, fix
a leak on a sink, put up 2 new drywipe boards and fix a lock that
was playing up - all for one simple hourly rate.

So where does that leave the customer smart arse?



with some one who cant fix his lights

No, with someone who is going to check out why the lights don't work and
resolve the problem properly.

PS what skill is involved with any of your answers I could do all the
above and fix the lights and so could any decent electrician

No skill required, but you miss the point yet again. An electrician 'could'
do all the above, but you would be bloody lucky to find one who would sort
the lights, let alone anything else. And of course at an hourly rate much
higher than mine.

Its called a niche market.


If you are so smart & know absolutely everything I suggest you start a
handyman business like mine. Someone as clever as you would make millions.


you are right I could start up a business, but I just lack the drive to
knock my self out working on things that any one should be able to do
with half a brain.
Most of the jobs you do are just common sense DIY jobs ,and I get asked
to do them all the time fix lights,assemble flat packs, fix toilets tile
bathrooms ETC but doing them and earn a crust at the same time takes all
the fun out of it ,I DIY because I enjoy it I have spent 4 hours fixing
a £10 toy this week just because I can.
it might be just because I have a nack at fixing/taking things apart and
always have since I was quite young that I cannot believe some of the
obvious questions on here
--
Kevin R
Reply address works