New Metal Beam Safe?

I would value your opinion on whether the new metal beam
which some builders put into my kitchen today is safe.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cmsvvd&s=4

I'm no expert but it looks a foot too short to me,
and I fear that because it is on one end of a concrete block
it put a huge cracking force on the right of the block
and crack the block...

It is old soft brick with lime mortar underneath,
which i fear will compress over the coming decades
more under the right of the block than under the left.

Should I let them continue to brick it in on Monday,
or ask them to check the forces or what?

thanks, George

--

"George (dicegeorge)" wrote in message
...
New Metal Beam Safe?

I would value your opinion on whether the new metal beam
which some builders put into my kitchen today is safe.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cmsvvd&s=4

I'm no expert but it looks a foot too short to me,
and I fear that because it is on one end of a concrete block
it put a huge cracking force on the right of the block
and crack the block...

It is old soft brick with lime mortar underneath,
which i fear will compress over the coming decades
more under the right of the block than under the left.

Should I let them continue to brick it in on Monday,
or ask them to check the forces or what?

thanks, George

--




That look normal to me.

The concrete padstones will be of a grade of concrete up to the task of
distributing the point load over the underlying brickwork.

If that gives you concern, let me post a picture of the RSJ and padstones
currently being installed here at Lowe Towers. ( tomorrow! )


--
Ron

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
George (dicegeorge) wrote:

New Metal Beam Safe?

I would value your opinion on whether the new metal beam
which some builders put into my kitchen today is safe.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cmsvvd&s=4

I'm no expert but it looks a foot too short to me,
and I fear that because it is on one end of a concrete block
it put a huge cracking force on the right of the block
and crack the block...

It is old soft brick with lime mortar underneath,
which i fear will compress over the coming decades
more under the right of the block than under the left.

Should I let them continue to brick it in on Monday,
or ask them to check the forces or what?

thanks, George

Looks ok to me. What does the BCO say?
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

BCO ?

George (dicegeorge) wrote:
BCO ?

Building Control Officer.

BTW, it looks ok to me.

Unbeliever

we are widening an internal doorway,
which I dont think needs a Building Control Officer.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cmsvvd&s=4

--

[george]

~ [g] ~

George (dicegeorge) wrote:
BCO ?

http://careersadvice.direct.gov.uk/h...s/profile1379/

AKA

http://tinyurl.com/4g4ptb

Andy

George (dicegeorge) wrote:
New Metal Beam Safe?

I would value your opinion on whether the new metal beam
which some builders put into my kitchen today is safe.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cmsvvd&s=4

I'm no expert but it looks a foot too short to me,
and I fear that because it is on one end of a concrete block
it put a huge cracking force on the right of the block
and crack the block...

Looks fine to me - They'll fill the gap to the wall below with brick, slate
and/or dry-packed mortar, and the load will be spread more evenly then.



--
Criticising the government is not illegal, but on investigation often
turns out to be linked to other offences

"George (dicegeorge)" wrote in message
...
we are widening an internal doorway,
which I dont think needs a Building Control Officer.

If the wall is structural, you need building regulations approval. If it is
not, you don't need the beam.

Colin Bignell

In article ,
George \(dicegeorge\) wrote:
New Metal Beam Safe?

I would value your opinion on whether the new metal beam
which some builders put into my kitchen today is safe.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cmsvvd&s=4

I'm no expert but it looks a foot too short to me,
and I fear that because it is on one end of a concrete block
it put a huge cracking force on the right of the block
and crack the block...

It is old soft brick with lime mortar underneath,
which i fear will compress over the coming decades
more under the right of the block than under the left.

Should I let them continue to brick it in on Monday,
or ask them to check the forces or what?

If it's any help it's quite common to have a beam like that sitting on one
'half' of a 9" wall - when removing an internal load bearing wall. You
construct some form of padstone to spread the load.

But anything like this should involve pro help - initially by asking your
local BCO what he requires.

thanks, George

--
*I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
George (dicegeorge) wrote:

we are widening an internal doorway,
which I dont think needs a Building Control Officer.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cmsvvd&s=4

It most certainly *does*. Structural work of this nature is subject to
Building Regs - for which you have to pay the requisite fee, and have it
inspected by the BCO.

If your builder is unaware of this, he must be an even bigger cowboy than
you suspect!
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

George (dicegeorge) wrote:
we are widening an internal doorway,
which I dont think needs a Building Control Officer.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cmsvvd&s=4

Oh, yes it does! The Building Regulations apply to any work which at any
stage could affect structural stability or fire safety.

Your builder should have known this. If he doesn't, he's incompetent. If
he did, but went ahead anyway, he doesn't want anyone inspecting his
work 'cos he's ****e.

First thing Monday morning, get down to you local Council offices and
get a Building Notice in. Don't tell them you've already started,
otherwise it's a Regularisation, which costs a bit more. As soon as your
notice is in, tell them you want someone to inspect the beam as soon as
they can (usually 48 hours). Leave the beam as it is in that photo until
they've been and inspected.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed"?

hmmm,
the websites ive looked at arent clear on whether internal door improvements
are under buiklding regs...
but anyhow,,
will it affect my house insurance if I dont have BCO approval?

--

[george]



"Hugo Nebula" abuse@localhost wrote in message
...
George (dicegeorge) wrote:
we are widening an internal doorway,
which I dont think needs a Building Control Officer.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cmsvvd&s=4

Oh, yes it does! The Building Regulations apply to any work which at any
stage could affect structural stability or fire safety.

Your builder should have known this. If he doesn't, he's incompetent. If
he did, but went ahead anyway, he doesn't want anyone inspecting his work
'cos he's ****e.

First thing Monday morning, get down to you local Council offices and get
a Building Notice in. Don't tell them you've already started, otherwise
it's a Regularisation, which costs a bit more. As soon as your notice is
in, tell them you want someone to inspect the beam as soon as they can
(usually 48 hours). Leave the beam as it is in that photo until they've
been and inspected.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed"?

"George \(dicegeorge\)" wrote:
hmmm,
the websites ive looked at arent clear on whether internal door improvements
are under buiklding regs...
but anyhow,,
will it affect my house insurance if I dont have BCO approval?


Of course it will. They will refuse to pay out on any claim for
structural problems.

The bigger problem will come when you try to sell the house, and you
will have to admit that the door widening was done without Building
Control approval. How easy do you think it will be to sell?

In article ,
Bruce wrote:
The bigger problem will come when you try to sell the house, and you
will have to admit that the door widening was done without Building
Control approval. How easy do you think it will be to sell?

How would a prospective buyer be aware a door opening had been widened?

--
He who laughs last, thinks slowest*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
Bruce wrote:
The bigger problem will come when you try to sell the house, and you
will have to admit that the door widening was done without Building
Control approval. How easy do you think it will be to sell?

How would a prospective buyer be aware a door opening had been widened?


The buyer probably wouldn't, but their surveyor should.

Let's get this straight. Are you suggesting that the OP should
proceed without building control approval?

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Bruce wrote:
The bigger problem will come when you try to sell the house, and you
will have to admit that the door widening was done without Building
Control approval. How easy do you think it will be to sell?

How would a prospective buyer be aware a door opening had been
widened?

I suppose it depends on whether or not you're prepared to commit perjury
when answering all the standard questions asked by the purchaser's
solicitor.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

In article ,
Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Bruce wrote:
The bigger problem will come when you try to sell the house, and you
will have to admit that the door widening was done without Building
Control approval. How easy do you think it will be to sell?

How would a prospective buyer be aware a door opening had been
widened?

I suppose it depends on whether or not you're prepared to commit perjury
when answering all the standard questions asked by the purchaser's
solicitor.

You know for certainty what work has been done on your house since it was
built? I don't. If I were buying a house I'd employ a pro to check things
- certainly not rely on the 'honesty' of the seller.

--
*Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"George (dicegeorge)" wrote in message
...
hmmm,
the websites ive looked at arent clear on whether internal door
improvements are under buiklding regs...

If they are in non-structural walls, they are not. If they are in structural
walls, they are. If you need that beam, it is a structural wall.

but anyhow,,
will it affect my house insurance if I dont have BCO approval?

You won't have any insurance and it won't matter if the claim has anything
to do with this work. By failing to disclose a pertinent risk that you are
aware of, you will be in breach of your contract with the insurer, thereby
invalidating the insurance.

Colin Bignell

On 6 Oct, 16:12, Bruce wrote:
How would a prospective buyer be aware a door opening had been widened?

The buyer probably wouldn't, but their surveyor should. *

Only if their guide dog smells it out.

On 3 Oct, 21:55, "Ron Lowe" ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS wrote:

The concrete padstones will be of a grade of concrete up to the task of
distributing the point load over the underlying brickwork.

If they _are_ concrete, not just a random breezeblock that was handy
at the time.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

8

You know for certainty what work has been done on your house since it was
built? I don't. If I were buying a house I'd employ a pro to check things
- certainly not rely on the 'honesty' of the seller.

Want to name one surveyor that's going to strip the plaster, etc. to see
what's underneath?
If you can find one do you think the seller will let you?

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

8

You know for certainty what work has been done on your house since it
was built? I don't. If I were buying a house I'd employ a pro to check
things - certainly not rely on the 'honesty' of the seller.

Want to name one surveyor that's going to strip the plaster, etc. to see
what's underneath? If you can find one do you think the seller will let
you?

And you know for certainty that houses don't sell because they've had a
doorway widened without the paperwork? Of course if there are cracks
everywhere...



--
*I used up all my sick days so I called in dead

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

8

You know for certainty what work has been done on your house since it
was built? I don't. If I were buying a house I'd employ a pro to check
things - certainly not rely on the 'honesty' of the seller.

Want to name one surveyor that's going to strip the plaster, etc. to see
what's underneath? If you can find one do you think the seller will let
you?

And you know for certainty that houses don't sell because they've had a
doorway widened without the paperwork? Of course if there are cracks
everywhere...


So are you suggesting that the OP should
proceed without building control approval?

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

8

You know for certainty what work has been done on your house since it
was built? I don't. If I were buying a house I'd employ a pro to check
things - certainly not rely on the 'honesty' of the seller.

Want to name one surveyor that's going to strip the plaster, etc. to see
what's underneath? If you can find one do you think the seller will let
you?

And you know for certainty that houses don't sell because they've had a
doorway widened without the paperwork?

So surveyor goes into house, sees wall paper, etc.
writes report saying everything looks fine.
There is no paperwork to say door has been widened and no way to see that it
has.

In article ,
Bruce wrote:
And you know for certainty that houses don't sell because they've had a
doorway widened without the paperwork? Of course if there are cracks
everywhere...


So are you suggesting that the OP should
proceed without building control approval?

Absolutely not. Just don't believe all the scare stories about it making
insurance invalid or the house unsaleable if all that is wrong with the
work is a lack of the correct paperwork.

--
*If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Bruce wrote:
And you know for certainty that houses don't sell because they've had a
doorway widened without the paperwork? Of course if there are cracks
everywhere...


So are you suggesting that the OP should
proceed without building control approval?

Absolutely not.


That seems clear, but ...


Just don't believe all the scare stories about it making
insurance invalid or the house unsaleable if all that is wrong with the
work is a lack of the correct paperwork.


.... that clearly implies that you think the OP can get away with it.

It seems that you are suggesting that he does nothing, because he will
get away with it, but when you are challenged on that specific point,
you deny it, absolutely.

Were you a politician in a former life?

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bruce wrote:
And you know for certainty that houses don't sell because they've had a
doorway widened without the paperwork? Of course if there are cracks
everywhere...


So are you suggesting that the OP should
proceed without building control approval?

Absolutely not. Just don't believe all the scare stories about it making
insurance invalid or the house unsaleable if all that is wrong with the
work is a lack of the correct paperwork.

Part of the problem is that George doesn't seem to know if the work is
satisfactory or not. So it might not be just a matter of paperwork but
of fundamental safety - and the only sensible approach to getting that
cleared seems to me to be getting the BCO in.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bruce wrote:
And you know for certainty that houses don't sell because they've had a
doorway widened without the paperwork? Of course if there are cracks
everywhere...


So are you suggesting that the OP should
proceed without building control approval?

Absolutely not. Just don't believe all the scare stories about it making
insurance invalid or the house unsaleable if all that is wrong with the
work is a lack of the correct paperwork.


It depends when the work was done. IME, if it is obviously too old to
expect paperwork, a surveyor would judge its soundness from external
appearances 'as seen today'; but if it was obviously recent, and of a
kind that should have had BCO approval, they'd be asking for paperwork
for sure.

Any surveyor can read the little clues that tell the age of building
work... and most of us here (including Mr Plowman) could too.

It isn't a matter of making the house literally unsaleable - given time,
there are all kinds of workarounds - but a question like that could lose
a deal if either party was in a hurry.



--
Ian White

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bruce wrote:
And you know for certainty that houses don't sell because they've had a
doorway widened without the paperwork? Of course if there are cracks
everywhere...


So are you suggesting that the OP should
proceed without building control approval?

Absolutely not. Just don't believe all the scare stories about it making
insurance invalid or the house unsaleable if all that is wrong with the
work is a lack of the correct paperwork.

There is no doubt about the failure to disclose a pertinent risk making his
insurance invalid. It is less certain whether the insurers will find out.
However, if that beam is wrong, they probably will at just the time he needs
it.

Colin Bignell

On 6 Oct, 16:17, "Roger Mills" wrote:

I suppose it depends on whether or not you're prepared to commit perjury
when answering all the standard questions asked by the purchaser's
solicitor.

It's not perjury. Perjury is telling lies under oath in court. What
you're thinking of is fraud. False statements concerning a property
sale may be an offence under the Fraud Act, with a potential maximum
sentence of ten years! However, answering "not known" to a question
isn't fraud...

Regards
Richard

In article ,
Bruce wrote:
So are you suggesting that the OP should
proceed without building control approval?

Absolutely not.


That seems clear, but ...


Just don't believe all the scare stories about it making
insurance invalid or the house unsaleable if all that is wrong with the
work is a lack of the correct paperwork.


... that clearly implies that you think the OP can get away with it.

No - while it's in this exposed state it makes sense to do the paperwork
correctly.

It seems that you are suggesting that he does nothing, because he will
get away with it, but when you are challenged on that specific point,
you deny it, absolutely.

My thoughts were to do with where the lack of paperwork is only found out
long after the job is finished. Like I'm sure happens often with small
builders.

Were you a politician in a former life?

--
*I wish the buck stopped here. I could use a few.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

So surveyor goes into house, sees wall paper, etc.
writes report saying everything looks fine.
There is no paperwork to say door has been widened and no way to see that
it has.


there is now - they could search the web and find this!
[g]

xxxxxxx
! However, answering "not known" to a question
isn't fraud...

Regards
Richard

it would be fraud if i did know, and I do, and they can prove it by googling
here!
[g]

I have sent an innocent email to the council building regs department asking
if approval is/was needed...

I have not yet paid the builders...

Is there a professional building code that they should have told me about
building regs,
knowing that this was my first house project?

I will not mention their name here, because I like them!

They are in the Construction Confederations

Would I be justified in subtracting the cost of the retrospective council
building reg inspection
from their bill, or at least part of it?

It looks to me that it will be safe for years,
but this is an old house, I want it to be safe for centuries,
and I fear that compression of the lime mortar will lead to uneven loads
rotating the padstone clockwise
and cracking of the brickwork
over the decades....

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cmsvvd&s=4

[george]


xxx

Part of the problem is that George doesn't seem to know if the work is
satisfactory or not. So it might not be just a matter of paperwork but of
fundamental safety - and the only sensible approach to getting that
cleared seems to me to be getting the BCO in.

--
Rod
xxxxx

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
Bruce wrote:
So are you suggesting that the OP should
proceed without building control approval?

Absolutely not.


That seems clear, but ...


Just don't believe all the scare stories about it making
insurance invalid or the house unsaleable if all that is wrong with the
work is a lack of the correct paperwork.


... that clearly implies that you think the OP can get away with it.

No - while it's in this exposed state it makes sense to do the paperwork
correctly.


This appears to suggest that the OP should cover it up quickly and say
absolutely nothing.

EMAIL JUST RECEIVED...

George

Repair and maintenance are generally exempt from building regulations,
however the widening of the opening may reduce the structural stability of
any existing lintol, or make it necessary to install a new lintol. If the
works are structural, then the building regulations would apply.

If you have any doubt, I would be able to carry out a quick check when I am
in the area. Please give me a ring to arrange if necessary.

xx
Senior Building Control Surveyor
xxx Council

--

[george]

"George \(dicegeorge\)" wrote:
EMAIL JUST RECEIVED...

George

Repair and maintenance are generally exempt from building regulations,
however the widening of the opening may reduce the structural stability of
any existing lintol, or make it necessary to install a new lintol. If the
works are structural, then the building regulations would apply.

If you have any doubt, I would be able to carry out a quick check when I am
in the area. Please give me a ring to arrange if necessary.

xx
Senior Building Control Surveyor
xxx Council


Give the man a call. Don't delay.

"George \(dicegeorge\)" wrote:

I have sent an innocent email to the council building regs department asking
if approval is/was needed...

I have not yet paid the builders...

Is there a professional building code that they should have told me about
building regs,
knowing that this was my first house project?

I will not mention their name here, because I like them!

They are in the Construction Confederations



The builder *must know* that this is structural work that is covered
by a requirement for Building Control. The size of the beam alone
makes it pretty darn clear.

I think Building Control is your responsibility, not the builders'.

In article ,
"George \(dicegeorge\)" writes:
I have sent an innocent email to the council building regs department asking
if approval is/was needed...

I have not yet paid the builders...

Is there a professional building code that they should have told me about
building regs,
knowing that this was my first house project?

No.

I will not mention their name here, because I like them!

They are in the Construction Confederations

Would I be justified in subtracting the cost of the retrospective council
building reg inspection
from their bill, or at least part of it?

No, you would have had to pay that anyway.
It might be reasonable not to pay for any remedial work
they have to do redo to make it conform to building regs.
If they have to do something extra, then it will depend if
your contract with them is fixed price (which should include
making it conform to building regs) or time and materials.

It looks to me that it will be safe for years,
but this is an old house, I want it to be safe for centuries,
and I fear that compression of the lime mortar will lead to uneven loads
rotating the padstone clockwise
and cracking of the brickwork
over the decades....

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cmsvvd&s=4

Difficult to see in the picture, but I can't see anything
above the RSJ's which needs supporting, other than ceiling
joists for which they look well OTT. Does the wall continue
above or is there anything else resting on them? If so, I
image you might need to underpin the wall under the padstones
where it takes extra weight. RSJ will also need protection
from fire, so it doesn't bend and collapse on firemen searching
for you.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]