I am wondering about replacing my steel oil tank which stands about a foot
from the back of my brick built garage.
The garage is separate from my house. I could use either a plastic or a
steel tank.

If I amend an existing domestic installation to what extent am I obliged to
conform to the latest building regulations?


--
Michael Chare

Michael Chare wrote:
I am wondering about replacing my steel oil tank which stands about a
foot from the back of my brick built garage.
The garage is separate from my house. I could use either a plastic or a
steel tank.

If I amend an existing domestic installation to what extent am I obliged
to conform to the latest building regulations?


100% if its a replacemnt rather than repair..

100% if its a replacemnt rather than repair..

ISTR it's a bit more complicated with oil tanks. Although in some
locations bunded tanks are now required (near drains & waterways, but
I think a date has been set for all replacement tanks to be bunded) -
there's also a relaxation for "difficult" locations where one could
not reasonably be fitted.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Michael Chare wrote:
I am wondering about replacing my steel oil tank which stands about a
foot from the back of my brick built garage.
The garage is separate from my house. I could use either a plastic or a
steel tank.

If I amend an existing domestic installation to what extent am I obliged
to conform to the latest building regulations?


100% if its a replacemnt rather than repair..

You are required to conform 100%, that's true. However in my
experience there is a lot of mis-information, worry and guesswork
surrounding the regs. People imagine the regs say things they don't
and some of the professionals appear to not have actually read the
regs themselves. The regs are available online (free) from the
odpm.gov website and if you take the time to read them and are logical
they do make sense.
Which aspects are you particularly concerned about?

On Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:16:37 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


100% if its a replacemnt rather than repair..

ISTR it's a bit more complicated with oil tanks. Although in some
locations bunded tanks are now required (near drains & waterways, but
I think a date has been set for all replacement tanks to be bunded) -
there's also a relaxation for "difficult" locations where one could
not reasonably be fitted.

I'm wondering what sort of location could be where a bunded tank
couldn't be fitted....

:-)
--
Frank Erskine

"Calvin" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Michael Chare wrote:
I am wondering about replacing my steel oil tank which stands about a
foot from the back of my brick built garage.
The garage is separate from my house. I could use either a plastic or a
steel tank.

If I amend an existing domestic installation to what extent am I
obliged
to conform to the latest building regulations?


100% if its a replacemnt rather than repair..

You are required to conform 100%, that's true. However in my
experience there is a lot of mis-information, worry and guesswork
surrounding the regs. People imagine the regs say things they don't
and some of the professionals appear to not have actually read the
regs themselves. The regs are available online (free) from the
odpm.gov website and if you take the time to read them and are logical
they do make sense.
Which aspects are you particularly concerned about?


The requirement to be 1.8m distance from a building (my garage), - without
an intervening firewall. The brick piers for my existing tank are more
precisely only 22" from the back of the garage. Ideally I would like a
replacement tank to sit on these piers .

--
Michael Chare

Michael Chare wrote:

"Calvin" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Michael Chare wrote:
I am wondering about replacing my steel oil tank which stands about a
foot from the back of my brick built garage.
The garage is separate from my house. I could use either a plastic or a
steel tank.

If I amend an existing domestic installation to what extent am I
obliged
to conform to the latest building regulations?


100% if its a replacemnt rather than repair..

You are required to conform 100%, that's true. However in my
experience there is a lot of mis-information, worry and guesswork
surrounding the regs. People imagine the regs say things they don't
and some of the professionals appear to not have actually read the
regs themselves. The regs are available online (free) from the
odpm.gov website and if you take the time to read them and are logical
they do make sense.
Which aspects are you particularly concerned about?


The requirement to be 1.8m distance from a building (my garage), - without
an intervening firewall. The brick piers for my existing tank are more
precisely only 22" from the back of the garage. Ideally I would like a
replacement tank to sit on these piers .

--
Michael Chare

I worried about this and my worries were reinforced by some
professionals who seemed to think the rule was "can't have a tank
within 1.8m" or "can't have a tank within 1.8m unless you build a
firewall". In fact the rule is that if the garage wall is built to a
30min fire resistance you're fine. In my case that meant I could
stand the tank on the existing piers quite happily as my garage has a
solid brick end wall with no openings.
What construction is your garage? If it's built of timber or has a
window opening onto the tank you have more of a problem but if it's a
solid brick wall the most you might have to do is clad the eaves in
something non-combustible.

I'm wondering what sort of location could be where a bunded tank
couldn't be fitted....

Where the plot is physically too small for instance.

Again IIRC, an existing masonry wall is fine, but there are minimum
distances to windows and doors (both horizontally and vertically), and
to property boundaries.

Modern plastic tanks need to be supported over the entire base,
usually on a concrete pad at ground level (manufacturer requirements
rather than building regs).

wrote:
100% if its a replacemnt rather than repair..

ISTR it's a bit more complicated with oil tanks. Although in some
locations bunded tanks are now required (near drains & waterways, but
I think a date has been set for all replacement tanks to be bunded) -
there's also a relaxation for "difficult" locations where one could
not reasonably be fitted.


All of that is still complying with latest regulations. Its just the
regulations are a shade more flexible.

wrote:
Again IIRC, an existing masonry wall is fine, but there are minimum
distances to windows and doors (both horizontally and vertically), and
to property boundaries.

Modern plastic tanks need to be supported over the entire base,
usually on a concrete pad at ground level (manufacturer requirements
rather than building regs).

Not at ground level. You need gravity for many burner types, and even
pumped one's wont cope with a long pipe and no fall.

Mine is supported on concrete lintels laid across a pair of walls. Its
just fine.

wrote:
I'm wondering what sort of location could be where a bunded tank
couldn't be fitted....

Where the plot is physically too small for instance.

Indeed. Out here where oil is de rigeur, there are a few people in deep
trouble because they have nowhere to put an oil tank legally to modern regs.

So they keep the old ones going..

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Mine is supported on concrete lintels laid across a pair of walls. Its
just fine.


Looking at the designs of 2500 litre plastic tanks, the weight is presumably
supported through the square bits which are likely to be close to the walls.

That just leaves the question of how thick the lintels need to be for a 2500
litre tank. I have been a bit disappointed with the installation
instructions I have been able to obtain for tanks. Unlike boilers where you
can get very good instructions.

The plastic tanks are also very expensive! Almost as much as my boiler. I
expect that I shall be trying to make my steel tank last a bit longer.

--
Michael Chare

"Calvin" wrote in message
...
Michael Chare wrote:

"Calvin" wrote in message
...


The requirement to be 1.8m distance from a building (my garage), -
without
an intervening firewall. The brick piers for my existing tank are more
precisely only 22" from the back of the garage. Ideally I would like a
replacement tank to sit on these piers .

--
Michael Chare

I worried about this and my worries were reinforced by some
professionals who seemed to think the rule was "can't have a tank
within 1.8m" or "can't have a tank within 1.8m unless you build a
firewall". In fact the rule is that if the garage wall is built to a
30min fire resistance you're fine. In my case that meant I could
stand the tank on the existing piers quite happily as my garage has a
solid brick end wall with no openings.
What construction is your garage? If it's built of timber or has a
window opening onto the tank you have more of a problem but if it's a
solid brick wall the most you might have to do is clad the eaves in
something non-combustible.



Thanks, my situation is similar to yours. Brick end wall to garage with no
openings in that wall. The roof tiles just overhang the wall by 4-5cm, and
from what I understand from reading Part J I think that I the installation
would conform.

--
Michael Chare

Michael Chare wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Mine is supported on concrete lintels laid across a pair of walls. Its
just fine.


Looking at the designs of 2500 litre plastic tanks, the weight is
presumably supported through the square bits which are likely to be
close to the walls.

That just leaves the question of how thick the lintels need to be for a
2500 litre tank. I have been a bit disappointed with the installation
instructions I have been able to obtain for tanks. Unlike boilers where
you can get very good instructions.

Well I dont know, but I have 4 lintels spaced about 4" apart and about
4" thick. For a 2500 liter tank.

No issues after 6 years ..



The plastic tanks are also very expensive! Almost as much as my
boiler. I expect that I shall be trying to make my steel tank last a
bit longer.

Why not?

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Well I dont know, but I have 4 lintels spaced about 4" apart and about 4"
thick. For a 2500 liter tank.

No issues after 6 years ..

Thanks. Is it possible for one person working alone and without lifting
equipment to position the tank? Can you pick up one end easily.


The plastic tanks are also very expensive! Almost as much as my boiler.
I expect that I shall be trying to make my steel tank last a bit longer.

Why not?

The only problem with the steel tank is that it does require regular
maintenance, mainly to remove any rust patches. I have a green plastic
water butt which is older and I have never bothered with.

I have just found a suitable tank on ebay. That has got me thinking, though
no doubt the price will rise!.

--
Michael Chare

Michael Chare wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Well I dont know, but I have 4 lintels spaced about 4" apart and about
4" thick. For a 2500 liter tank.

No issues after 6 years ..

Thanks. Is it possible for one person working alone and without lifting
equipment to position the tank? Can you pick up one end easily.


Yeah. I think so.

it's when they are full they weigh..



The plastic tanks are also very expensive! Almost as much as my
boiler. I expect that I shall be trying to make my steel tank last a
bit longer.

Why not?

The only problem with the steel tank is that it does require regular
maintenance, mainly to remove any rust patches. I have a green plastic
water butt which is older and I have never bothered with.

I have just found a suitable tank on ebay. That has got me thinking,
though no doubt the price will rise!.


Do put all new fittings on it though.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Michael Chare wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Well I dont know, but I have 4 lintels spaced about 4" apart and about
4" thick. For a 2500 liter tank.

No issues after 6 years ..

Thanks. Is it possible for one person working alone and without lifting
equipment to position the tank? Can you pick up one end easily.


Yeah. I think so.

it's when they are full they weigh..



The plastic tanks are also very expensive! Almost as much as my
boiler. I expect that I shall be trying to make my steel tank last a
bit longer.

Why not?

The only problem with the steel tank is that it does require regular
maintenance, mainly to remove any rust patches. I have a green plastic
water butt which is older and I have never bothered with.

I have just found a suitable tank on ebay. That has got me thinking,
though no doubt the price will rise!.


Do put all new fittings on it though.

I don't know what you call expensive but I paid around £800 to have
someone pump out the oil and store it, remove the old metal tank,
refurbish the piers, fit a new metal non-bunded tank and re-fill the
oil into it. I could have bought the tank for around £400 so the
service cost me about £400 which I think was pretty good value
considering that if I'd done it myself I'd have struggled to store the
oil and to dispose of the old tank. To be honest the handling of the
tanks and doing the work wasn't a challenge - it sounded like fun!
Mind you I'm really glad I didn't do it myself as when it leaked just
a bit from the outlet fitting I was able to solve it with a phone call
to the fitter, imagine the hassle of trying to fix such a leak on a
tank full of oil!

I chose a metal tank rather than plastic mostly because I am aware
that blow (or rotationally) moulded plastic does have a habit of
becomming brittle in daylight. It was also significantly cheaper!
If you do go for plastic you *must* follow the manufacturers
instructions about supporting it. From everything I learned while
researching it that will mean a fully supportive base rather than
sitting on piers (although of course the supportive base could itself
be sitting on piers). I know that The Natural Philosopher has a 2500
litre tank supported on piers but I think he's taking a huge risk, 2.5
tonnes pressing on four lintels it a lot to ask of the plastic base of
the tank.

Good luck,
Calvin

The message

from Calvin contains these words:



I chose a metal tank rather than plastic mostly because I am aware
that blow (or rotationally) moulded plastic does have a habit of
becomming brittle in daylight. It was also significantly cheaper!

Been in the same house for 30 years. Replaced two metal tanks in that
time. Plastic one is surviving very nicely, thank you. Much better
than the metal ones I've had.


If you do go for plastic you *must* follow the manufacturers
instructions about supporting it. From everything I learned while
researching it that will mean a fully supportive base rather than
sitting on piers (although of course the supportive base could itself
be sitting on piers). I know that The Natural Philosopher has a 2500
litre tank supported on piers but I think he's taking a huge risk, 2.5
tonnes pressing on four lintels it a lot to ask of the plastic base of
the tank.

This isn't rocket science. Some very ordinary paving slabs on top of
the concrete lintels do the job just fine at next to no cost.

Calvin wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Michael Chare wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Well I dont know, but I have 4 lintels spaced about 4" apart and about
4" thick. For a 2500 liter tank.

No issues after 6 years ..

Thanks. Is it possible for one person working alone and without lifting
equipment to position the tank? Can you pick up one end easily.

Yeah. I think so.

it's when they are full they weigh..


The plastic tanks are also very expensive! Almost as much as my
boiler. I expect that I shall be trying to make my steel tank last a
bit longer.

Why not?

The only problem with the steel tank is that it does require regular
maintenance, mainly to remove any rust patches. I have a green plastic
water butt which is older and I have never bothered with.

I have just found a suitable tank on ebay. That has got me thinking,
though no doubt the price will rise!.

Do put all new fittings on it though.

I don't know what you call expensive but I paid around £800 to have
someone pump out the oil and store it, remove the old metal tank,
refurbish the piers, fit a new metal non-bunded tank and re-fill the
oil into it. I could have bought the tank for around £400 so the
service cost me about £400 which I think was pretty good value
considering that if I'd done it myself I'd have struggled to store the
oil and to dispose of the old tank. To be honest the handling of the
tanks and doing the work wasn't a challenge - it sounded like fun!
Mind you I'm really glad I didn't do it myself as when it leaked just
a bit from the outlet fitting I was able to solve it with a phone call
to the fitter, imagine the hassle of trying to fix such a leak on a
tank full of oil!

I chose a metal tank rather than plastic mostly because I am aware
that blow (or rotationally) moulded plastic does have a habit of
becomming brittle in daylight. It was also significantly cheaper!
If you do go for plastic you *must* follow the manufacturers
instructions about supporting it. From everything I learned while
researching it that will mean a fully supportive base rather than
sitting on piers (although of course the supportive base could itself
be sitting on piers). I know that The Natural Philosopher has a 2500
litre tank supported on piers but I think he's taking a huge risk, 2.5
tonnes pressing on four lintels it a lot to ask of the plastic base of
the tank.

No, really, at least 50% of the tank base..maybe more - is in contact
with those lintels.

Its really truly not a problem

If it bothered anyone, its easy enough to lay paving slabs on top first.



Good luck,
Calvin

"Appin" wrote in message
...
The message

from Calvin contains these words:



I chose a metal tank rather than plastic mostly because I am aware
that blow (or rotationally) moulded plastic does have a habit of
becomming brittle in daylight. It was also significantly cheaper!

Been in the same house for 30 years. Replaced two metal tanks in that
time. Plastic one is surviving very nicely, thank you. Much better
than the metal ones I've had.


That is interesting. I replaced my original steel tank 21 years ago. I
painted the replacement with micaceous irod oxide paimt. It has lasted
quite well, but it is prone to rust patches forming, sometimes under the
paint, which I have to remove from time to time.

It is difficult to know how serious these rust patches are.


--
Michael Chare

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Calvin wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Michael Chare wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Well I dont know, but I have 4 lintels spaced about 4" apart and about
4" thick. For a 2500 liter tank.

No issues after 6 years ..

Thanks. Is it possible for one person working alone and without lifting
equipment to position the tank? Can you pick up one end easily.

Yeah. I think so.

it's when they are full they weigh..


The plastic tanks are also very expensive! Almost as much as my
boiler. I expect that I shall be trying to make my steel tank last a
bit longer.

Why not?

The only problem with the steel tank is that it does require regular
maintenance, mainly to remove any rust patches. I have a green plastic
water butt which is older and I have never bothered with.

I have just found a suitable tank on ebay. That has got me thinking,
though no doubt the price will rise!.

Do put all new fittings on it though.

I don't know what you call expensive but I paid around �800 to have
someone pump out the oil and store it, remove the old metal tank,
refurbish the piers, fit a new metal non-bunded tank and re-fill the
oil into it. I could have bought the tank for around �400 so the
service cost me about �400 which I think was pretty good value
considering that if I'd done it myself I'd have struggled to store the
oil and to dispose of the old tank. To be honest the handling of the
tanks and doing the work wasn't a challenge - it sounded like fun!
Mind you I'm really glad I didn't do it myself as when it leaked just
a bit from the outlet fitting I was able to solve it with a phone call
to the fitter, imagine the hassle of trying to fix such a leak on a
tank full of oil!

I chose a metal tank rather than plastic mostly because I am aware
that blow (or rotationally) moulded plastic does have a habit of
becomming brittle in daylight. It was also significantly cheaper!
If you do go for plastic you *must* follow the manufacturers
instructions about supporting it. From everything I learned while
researching it that will mean a fully supportive base rather than
sitting on piers (although of course the supportive base could itself
be sitting on piers). I know that The Natural Philosopher has a 2500
litre tank supported on piers but I think he's taking a huge risk, 2.5
tonnes pressing on four lintels it a lot to ask of the plastic base of
the tank.

No, really, at least 50% of the tank base..maybe more - is in contact
with those lintels.

Its really truly not a problem

If it bothered anyone, its easy enough to lay paving slabs on top first.


I totally agree, it's easy to create a full base by laying slabs on
the lintels. The point I was making was that I believe it's an
important step. I do speak with some experience as my sister bought a
(new) house in Cornwall and discovered a year or so after moving in
that the tank had split for exactly that reason, albeit they are very
near the sea on a sandy soil and I suspect the piers had shifted
slightly making things even worse for the tank. That was expensive!

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:

No, really, at least 50% of the tank base..maybe more - is in contact
with those lintels.

Its really truly not a problem

If it bothered anyone, its easy enough to lay paving slabs on top first.

In my experience (not with tanks though), paving slabs are useless at
supporting weight unless fully/evenly supported underneath themselves.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:

No, really, at least 50% of the tank base..maybe more - is in contact
with those lintels.

Its really truly not a problem

If it bothered anyone, its easy enough to lay paving slabs on top
first.

In my experience (not with tanks though), paving slabs are useless at
supporting weight unless fully/evenly supported underneath themselves.

Indeed. I use them for supporting 3 x 3 posts when building decks. Cheap
ones will crack under the weight of two people if not bedded down properly.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Calvin wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Calvin wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Michael Chare wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Well I dont know, but I have 4 lintels spaced about 4" apart and about
4" thick. For a 2500 liter tank.

No issues after 6 years ..

Thanks. Is it possible for one person working alone and without lifting
equipment to position the tank? Can you pick up one end easily.

Yeah. I think so.

it's when they are full they weigh..


The plastic tanks are also very expensive! Almost as much as my
boiler. I expect that I shall be trying to make my steel tank last a
bit longer.

Why not?

The only problem with the steel tank is that it does require regular
maintenance, mainly to remove any rust patches. I have a green plastic
water butt which is older and I have never bothered with.

I have just found a suitable tank on ebay. That has got me thinking,
though no doubt the price will rise!.

Do put all new fittings on it though.
I don't know what you call expensive but I paid around �800 to have
someone pump out the oil and store it, remove the old metal tank,
refurbish the piers, fit a new metal non-bunded tank and re-fill the
oil into it. I could have bought the tank for around �400 so the
service cost me about �400 which I think was pretty good value
considering that if I'd done it myself I'd have struggled to store the
oil and to dispose of the old tank. To be honest the handling of the
tanks and doing the work wasn't a challenge - it sounded like fun!
Mind you I'm really glad I didn't do it myself as when it leaked just
a bit from the outlet fitting I was able to solve it with a phone call
to the fitter, imagine the hassle of trying to fix such a leak on a
tank full of oil!

I chose a metal tank rather than plastic mostly because I am aware
that blow (or rotationally) moulded plastic does have a habit of
becomming brittle in daylight. It was also significantly cheaper!
If you do go for plastic you *must* follow the manufacturers
instructions about supporting it. From everything I learned while
researching it that will mean a fully supportive base rather than
sitting on piers (although of course the supportive base could itself
be sitting on piers). I know that The Natural Philosopher has a 2500
litre tank supported on piers but I think he's taking a huge risk, 2.5
tonnes pressing on four lintels it a lot to ask of the plastic base of
the tank.
No, really, at least 50% of the tank base..maybe more - is in contact
with those lintels.

Its really truly not a problem

If it bothered anyone, its easy enough to lay paving slabs on top first.


I totally agree, it's easy to create a full base by laying slabs on
the lintels. The point I was making was that I believe it's an
important step. I do speak with some experience as my sister bought a
(new) house in Cornwall and discovered a year or so after moving in
that the tank had split for exactly that reason, albeit they are very
near the sea on a sandy soil and I suspect the piers had shifted
slightly making things even worse for the tank. That was expensive!

Ah. I did cast a 4" concrete base with rebar before building the piers.

The space under is where my wife keeps her spare flower pots. And for
some reaoson barbecue charcoal.

The message
from (Andrew Gabriel) contains these words:

In my experience (not with tanks though), paving slabs are useless at
supporting weight unless fully/evenly supported underneath themselves.

You really have to look at the situation.

We're talking about a static load, not a dynamic one.

We're NOT talking about a point loading

We're talking about a situation in which the concrete lintels are
relatively close together anyway

Nobody has adduced any evidence of such slabs cracking in this
particular application

It seems to me that the recognised practice is just fine, so long as
nobody tries to use it as an excuse to get away with just a couple of
concrete lintels underneath the tank.